Guest

Independence; England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:52 am

I don't know if everyone knows but.. the UK is made up of four countries.. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.. but do you think any of these countries will become independent?

I hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10...

What do you think?

Regards..

Chris
 
GC
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Independence; England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:13 am

Scotland and England are technically the only two "Kingdoms" as Wales is a principality (albeit one that was annexed by force by King Edward I) and Northern Ireland is a province, borne out of the peace deal after the Republic of Ireland was formed through uprising.

Scotland actually has some different laws, legal system etc, so it could concevably become independant and be successful if we had good leadership. A large chunk of the UK army regiments in Iraq are Scottish (eg. The Black Watch), so we have some of the elite troops as well as Naval and Air bases already installed in Scotland.
 
Guest

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:07 am

I know that Scotland has a rather lot of military bases.. but does Wales?

I know that there is RAF St Athan and RAF Valley and rather a large number of barracks around Wales..

Regards..

Chris

BTW.. Don't forget the Welsh Guards!
 
Banco
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:27 am

I hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10...

You're having a laugh, aren't you? Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all have their own assemblies of parliaments. What's the one country in the UK that doesn't? Yes, England. It's just the English who have no say over their own affairs, being governed directly by the UK Parliament, where Welsh, Scots and Irish MP's can all have their say on English affairs whilst the English don't have any say over the other constituent countries.

Obviously, the English are not important, they only make up 85% of the population, and so it's perfectly reasonable for the government to get through their legislation on England only with the help of the Scots, Welsh and Irish, such as happened recently with foundation hospitals?  Insane

Just to make matters worse, despite not having a parliament of our own, we still subsidise the other members of the UK, who have their own spending plans and priorites. Fantasy? Oh really. Why do you think the Scots have been able to avoid tuition fees for students? Because the English fund them. Now I have absolutely no objection whatsoever to money being redistributed from the affluent south-east to the rest of the UK, but I do object when they then get self-government, and we don't.

I think you'll find a lot of Scots and Welsh who agree with me about this dis-enfranchising of the English. Have you not noticed the resurgence in English nationalism? It's because, for the first time in a couple of centuries, the English actually feel they are being taken for a ride. Over-representation of the Celtic nations in Parliament was never an issue before, but it is now. And it's going to get worse.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
saintsman
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:39 am

Well said Banco. It is a fact that England subsidises the rest and if they look like they are starting to take the piss there could well be calls for independence.



However IMO, we would be better off as a nation if we all stood together. There's nothing wrong with national pride but being British will make us all stronger.
 
Guest

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:48 am

All I will say is.... the UK GOVERMENT robbed Wales of it's coal and created many problems here.. you have taken advantage of Scotland's off shore fuel supplies as well as many other things through out history..

Maybe if Wales and Scotland weren't always having business taken away from them and being sent to other regions of the UK they would both be better off

Regards..

Chris
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:50 am

I have a great big smile on my face right now.

I hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10...

I completely empathise with the plight of the Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh. Coming from a country that has the legitimacy of it's independence constantly questioned by British culture, I must say that complete governmental independence from England is bliss.

Long live the Independent Principality of Wales, The Kingdom/Republic (?) of Scotland, The Kingdom of England and the Republic of Northern Ireland.

It appears the United Kingdom is not so United. Big grin Big grin Big grin

Qantasforever
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
Banco
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:55 am

All I will say is.... the UK GOVERMENT robbed Wales of it's coal and created many problems here.. you have taken advantage of Scotland's off shore fuel supplies as well as many other things through out history..

Maybe if Wales and Scotland weren't always having business taken away from them and being sent to other regions of the UK they would both be better off


Oh, don't be silly. Wales receives huge subsidies from England, far outweighing any "robbing" (and that's a daft word to use anyway) of the coal mines (Wales was a minority of total production by the way). As for business being taken away from them, that's just idiotic. Business dicates that the south east is more affluent, and that's why the government (the UK government) spends a sodding fortune bribing companies to set up outside of the south east. It's why the government shifts government agencies out of the south east. Try actually looking at the facts, and get this anti-English chip off your shoulder. Qantasforever is just as bad. Anything and everything bad that's ever happened to them is the fault of the English.  Insane
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Guest

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:58 am

If i'm going to be honest.. I have to admit every time I go to England I always have a look or a snide anti-welsh comment made at me.. and I have a very slight Welsh accent (most people abroad think im Irish)..

If Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland could be as wealthy and prosperous without the UK I would be 'oh so' happy! Big grin

For another example of this hate.. look at the sport events between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.. all of the Celtic nations hate England and vice versa...GO JOHNNY! LOL... how amusing that is..

Regards..

Chris

 
Guest

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:02 am

I will never get this so called anti-English 'chip' off.. the abuse that I have received alone out numbers any reason for me to like England..

BUT

Can we get back to the point of Independence..

Regards..

Chris
 
Banco
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:04 am

If Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland could be as wealthy and prosperous without the UK I would be 'oh so' happy

Yes, but the brutal truth of the matter is that you can't. You rely on England, because that's where London is, and that's where most of the UK's wealth is generated. It is then distributed (not by the government so much, more by economic forces) around the whole country.

Put it this way, if Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland declared independence, the English would be a hell of a lot richer. And that says it all.

As for sporting events, what do you expect? The English are the big country, of course you want to beat us.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
GC
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N.

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:07 am

"Well said Banco. It is a fact that England subsidises the rest and if they look like they are starting to take the piss there could well be calls for independence.

"

Is that why the UK government has sold off most of the Scottish fishing fleet and allowed the EU to ban us from our own waters for half the week whilst France and Spain can fish there as often as they please.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:09 am

Banco - Qantasforever is just as bad. Anything and everything bad that's ever happened to them is the fault of the English.

Yep, pretty much. Big grin Big grin Big grin

Seriously though, I'm sure there are some nice things about England - I can't actually think of any at this (or any other) time, but I'm sure they're out there somewhere.  Big grin

OH wait - of course. Banco - a national treasure.

QFF





Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
Banco
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:17 am

Yep, pretty much

Actually, I did mean to add a  Big grin smiley at the end of my comment, since you are congenitally incapable of passing up any opportunity to have a sly dig at us. Never mind - one of these days we'll engange in a serious discussion. Big grin

Gc - that government incompetence affects the English fleet as well. It was down to Edward Heath signing away our waters upon EU accession. But, yes, I agree with you on the principle.

EGFFbmi:I will never get this so called anti-English 'chip' off.. the abuse that I have received alone out numbers any reason for me to like England..

Since you seem to blame the English for everything it seems hardly surprising to me that you will receive stick. Rather more mature people get good natured ribbing - on both sides of Offa's Dyke. I'm old enough to remember non-stop Welsh abuse over their superior rugby side. Do I now hate the Welsh? Don't be absurd. I just give it back and pray that the wheel doesn't turn around too soon.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Banco
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:23 am

Oh and to suggest in sport that the English hate the "Celtic" countries is even more daft. Firstly, the English find any actual "hate" rather baffling, and second, have you actually been to a rugby match? You'll find all fans mix and drink with each other, and just take the piss.

Football is another issue, but the English hooligans don't hate the Celts, they hate everyone, including the English, 'cos they'll fight amongst themselves if no-one else is around.
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yyz717
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:42 am

Since Scotland is heavily subsidized by the English, you would think that Scotland would be eternally greatful for the English. They should be.

Seriously though, I'm sure there are some nice things about England - I can't actually think of any at this (or any other) time, but I'm sure they're out there somewhere.

Since something like 90% of Aussies have English background, the evidence of England should be apparent every time you step you step outside your door....from the overwhelming English blood in Australia, to the English customs of rule of law, parliament, free enterprise, etc.

You personally owe a lot to English customs QANTASforever, and by extension to English-descended peoples.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
GDB
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:08 am

Yeah we are terrible Qantas, really f***** you over haven't we?
Terrible life for you in that nation down under, with all that terrible British derived stability (you'd inaccurately say 'English' no doubt, but many of the top 'Empire Builders' were Scots) and rule of law which ensured it's prosperity.
Hate us so much and all we represent, (still apparent in Oz, bet that hurts you), then why not piss off to somewhere the British/English haven't 'contaminated', I dunno, Albania? Bolivia? Belarus maybe?

To the subject, the Welsh and Scots Nationalists are BS merchants, most of 'their' people see that so they don't win, really a protest vote at best.
But if it happened, so be it.
Perhaps the Celtic fringe North of the border would find life tough without us to blame, for us, we won't miss being tainted by being British because of the ugly inter-religious bigotry in some parts of the UK.

What I love is when the nationalists assume that most English people are as screwed up and bitter towards them as they are towards us, we don't care, it hardly registers.

Me? If I'm asked, I'm British, English I suppose is more accurate, I prefer British.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:17 am

Could someone tell me who so many people hesitate being British? Britain is a beautiful example of how different countries and ethnic groups can be combined to creat a powerful and strong identity, that identity is British. Each of the four home nations have their own unique identity and tradition, combine all that and it creates the British identity. This is someone to celebrate and cherish, not deride, sneer at and create bogus reasons for "independance", independance from what oppression? Or is the call for independance merely a ego-boosting exercise?
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Guest

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:26 am

I would like to be called British on a more of a wider basis but when you go abroad you are normally referred to as "English".. seeing as im "Welsh" I take it to heart.. and it does annoy me quite a lot.. not that I don't mind the people of England it's just that im a Welsh, British citizen not an English, British citizen.

Regards...

Chris
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:33 am

That's because the Welsh are a minority when it comes to the British population. When a foreigner meets a Briton, he/she would instinctively think you're English because the British population is over 80% English, it's quite obvious. When foreign nationals think "British" they usually think England and English, some even go as far as referring to "England's government", which most of it is out of ignorance.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
bobrayner
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:49 am

I don't know if everyone knows but.. the UK is made up of four countries.. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.. but do you think any of these countries will become independent?

I hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10...


Depends on your definition of country. Most people would consider the UK to be a country; and one country can't be a superset of other countries, can it?

A different noun might be appropriate. "Region" is too vague. "Nation" is closer to the mark but rather emotive; just what separatists would want, though.

What's the one country in the UK that doesn't? Yes, England. It's just the English who have no say over their own affairs, being governed directly by the UK Parliament, where Welsh, Scots and Irish MP's can all have their say on English affairs whilst the English don't have any say over the other constituent countries.

Go ahead; form independent countries if you want. Form independent budgets too - I'm sure the English wouldn't mind throwing off the yoke of Scotland, Wales, and NI, who all (IIRC) have a larger share of public expenditure than of public revenue.

which most of it is out of ignorance

Unfortunately, this ignorance has (in the past) been encouraged by many English.

Is that why the UK government has sold off most of the Scottish fishing fleet and allowed the EU to ban us from our own waters for half the week whilst France and Spain can fish there as often as they please.

I'd love to see some evidence for this.  Big grin
Cunning linguist
 
gkirk
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:33 pm

Obviously, the English are not important

Finally you admit it Banco  Big thumbs up

Since Scotland is heavily subsidized by the English, you would think that Scotland would be eternally greatful for the English. They should be.

Uh huh...  Insane  Insane

BTW, Everybody hates England at any sport, purely because of the sheer arrogance of English sports stars, the English media (especially Jimmy Hill and Gary Linekar  Angry ) and a large number of English supporters (those who cause trouble). Maybe if they were a bit more like Scottish fans (drinking and having a good time without causing trouble), we wouldnt hate you as much  Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
GC
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N.

Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:51 pm

"I'd love to see some evidence for this."

Either go to the North of Scotland and speak to the hundreds of fishermen who've lost their livelihood, or pick up any newspaper in Scotland which carries the story....we've been well and truly shafted as usual
 
Guest

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:10 pm

I am not a fan of the EU at all..France and Germany seem to be running the UK..

I am disgraced to be called European.. I'm a British Citizen.. Except when I’m abroad im called English...  Nuts

Let's face it the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish are seen as second class people when our English counterparts look at us...

Regards..

Chris
 
Guest

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:16 am

Arsenal@LHR wrote:

"Each of the four home nations have their own unique identity and tradition, combine all that and it creates the British identity."

Well, the same exact thing holds true for the European identity, of which you, and some other British members, are always so critical. Each European nation has its own identity and history, but when combined, a fascinating and unique European identity emerges.

"This is someone to celebrate and cherish, not deride, sneer at and create bogus reasons for "independance", independance from what oppression?"

Again, you could apply the same to the European identity: To paraphrase your own words, being European is definitely something to celebrate and cherish, not deride, sneer at and create bogus reasons for "national sovereignty," sovereignty from what, oppression?

It's just funny that you claim how the four parts of the UK can live together in harmony and enjoy a common identity, yet get all upset about a united Europe.

EGFFbmi wrote:

I am disgraced to be called European.."

Fortunately, most other people who live in Europe don't share your feelings.

[Edited 2004-01-11 19:20:57]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:23 am

I am disgraced to be called European.."

Fortunately, most other people who live in Europe don't share your feelings.


Actually, alot of Europeans feel this way in the wealthier countries.....the UK, Germany, Holland, Italy. All they see is a never-ending subsidization of the newer & poorer members.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Banco
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:20 am

Unfortunately, EGFFbmi, most countries will tend to use English and British interchangeably. I think it's nowadays relatively rare for an Englishman to this, they would make the point that there is a difference. However, if you go back a hundred years or more, you would find that man Scots, Welsh and Irish would also use English and British interchangeably, bizarre as that might seem to our modern ears.

But the overseas perception remains the same. Recently, a German article referred to the Scottish highlands as one of the most beautiful parts of England, which would doubtless cause hilarity amongst the English and fury amongst the Scots.

PHX-LJU, much as you might like to compare the European and British experiences, you simply can't in this regard. England and Wales have been united, though conquest, for 800 years. Scotland has been united with England and Wales through the crown for four hundred years, and politically for three hundred. To say that there is a clear parallel with a political project since the last war is an utterly misleading and specious comparison. Make your argument for European unity where it fits, it doesn't fit there.
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Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:01 am

Well, the same exact thing holds true for the European identity, of which you, and some other British members, are always so critical. Each European nation has its own identity and history, but when combined, a fascinating and unique European identity emerges.

The buck stops at national level, we don't care or want a European indentity. Most of us see ourselves as British and nothing else. What you're saying is we take the British model of a union and take it to a European level, this is not feasible and is a invalid comparison. And plus, what is this "European" identity you talk about, to me it doesn't exist, i see no parallel between Norwegians, Greeks and Belgian.

It's just funny that you claim how the four parts of the UK can live together in harmony and enjoy a common identity, yet get all upset about a united Europe.

This has very little to do with a United Europe, this is about Britain and the British identity, whether we want a united Europe or not is for us to decide.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Guest

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:13 am

Banco wrote:

"To say that there is a clear parallel with a political project since the last war is an utterly misleading and specious comparison."

The situations are different, but the underlying idea -- that nations with different histories and chartacteristics can and do still share a common identity -- is the same. That is what I was referring to in my analogy.

Arsenal@LHR wrote:

"And plus, what is this "European" identity you talk about, to me it doesn't exist, i see no parallel between Norwegians, Greeks and Belgian."

You may not see them, but there are numerous parallels between those nations. Just compare them to non-European or, more accurately, non-European-influenced cultures, and their common values, intertwined histories, related cultures, and, yes, their common European identity, will all become immediately apparent.

"The buck stops at national level, we don't care or want a European indentity. "

You may not want it, but you already have it. Britain is different, in several respects, from continental countries, but it was settled by continentals, always influenced by continental history and culture (and vice versa), speaks a European language (mostly Germanic but with considerable French influences, among others), shares its most important values with the rest of modern Europe, was historically dominated by Anglo-Saxons and Celts (both ethnically European), got its predominant religion from the continent, etc., etc. None of these factors alone indicate a Europrean identity, but all together, they certainly do.

Sure, Britain's an island, and is therefore bound to have a fair number of distinctive characteristics, but that's also the case with, say, Japan, and no-one is denying its Asian identity.

[Edited 2004-01-11 23:21:50]
 
bobrayner
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:19 am

I think there's enough argument on Britain / England / Scotland / Wales / NI. We don't need to add the EU! Save it for another thread  Big grin
Cunning linguist
 
GC
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N.

Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:28 am

"If it's such a widespread resentment, you should have little difficulty finding a news article that says foreign fishermen can roam British seas at will, whilst the British are forced to stay in port; or which says that the government sold off fishing fleets. "



You didn't try very hard, this is one of many links on google. My point is that the UK government have done nothing to defend the fishing industry.

http://www.peterhead.org.uk/industry_overview/fishing_industry.htm
 
GC
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N.

Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:35 am

http://www.news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=26902004

Oh, here's another!!

Finnie backtracks on fisheries deal

FRANK URQUHART
ROSS Finnie, the minister for the environment, was yesterday forced into an embarrassing about-turn over the fisheries deal he signed in December.

Mr Finnie has accepted he will have to go back to the European Union to "tidy up" the agreement because of "unforeseen consequences".

In a convoluted statement issued by Mr Finnie last night, he stated: "It would be appropriate for us to suggest that we appear to have evidence that the way in which some of the detail has been drawn gives rise to an unintended consequence."

Last night, the SNP seized on the admission, claiming Mr Finnie’s statement indicated nothing more than a need to renegotiate the deal.

Richard Lochhead, the SNP’s fisheries spokesman, said: "The Executive has been forced to admit that far from being a victory, this deal is a disaster for our fishing industry.

"Mr Finnie is now talking of reopening the deal. Whether he calls that a re-negotiation or a tidying up really doesn’t matter. What is important is that he dumps this disastrous deal and allows our fishing communities access to our traditional fishing grounds."

The move came as Scottish fishermen were preparing to sacrifice the entire white-fish fleet in a major rebellion against the draconian catch regime signed up to by Mr Finnie.

Skippers are planning to ignore the new permit system, controlling the parts of the North Sea in which they can make their catches, when the new restrictions come into force on 1 February, in an unprecedented display of defiance which could effectively bankrupt the fleet within two or three months.

If the decision by fishermen to defy the new permit system - which applies only to British white-fish vessels - goes ahead, it will result in the fleet being deemed to have exhausted its annual mainstay haddock quota by the end of March, forcing the 120-strong fleet to be tied to the quayside for the rest of the year.

Mike Park, the president of the Scottish White Fish Producers’ Association (SWFPA), said the fleet had been left with no choice but to take protest action, which could seal the fleet’s fate within weeks instead of suffering a slow and lingering death.

He declared: "This new regime will destroy us. We will not be breaking the law as such but deliberately allowing the system to stack up against us.

"We are willing to sacrifice the fleet for a point of principle." Under the new system, only British vessels, the vast majority from Scotland’s white-fish fleet, will have to work under a permit system to catch their haddock quota, which was increased by more than 60 per cent this year.

They can only land 25 per cent of the quota in designated cod-sensitive zones and the remaining 75 per cent outside the conservation areas.

Mr Park explained: "If we don’t adhere to the permit system, everything we catch will be deemed to have come out of the designated areas and it won’t take long to fish 25 per cent of the annual quota because more than 70 per cent of our normal haddock catch comes from the designated areas in any case.

"In effect, come March or April, there will be no quota left in the designated areas and the authorities will have no option but to shut the North Sea down to us."

Mr Park rebuffed suggestions that the fleet was simply sealing its own fate in a futile gesture, claiming: "We can’t survive with the system as it is.

"We have been given 66 per cent more quotas but we have been effectively thrown out of two-thirds of the area where we catch our quotas, and we are limited to 15 days a month at sea in any case.

"The fleet will go bankrupt unless the regime is completely revamped."

Mr Park revealed that a leading Scottish trawling company, with a fleet of 36 vessels, had already warned they would have to tie up 18 of their boats this year in the hope of remaining viable.

He said: "We should be reaping the benefits of increased stocks, but the fleet is going to be destroyed because of this absurd management system."

Mr Park also laid the blame for the latest crisis at the door of Mr Finnie and Ben Bradshaw, the UK fisheries minister.

He claimed they had brokered the conservation area deal at last month’s meeting of the European Fisheries Council in a misguided move to secure additional quotas for the British fleet, without realising the consequences.

Leaders of the SWFPA will meet in Banff on Monday to finalise details of the permit revolt.

The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, meanwhile, is to seek the opinion of a leading QC on possible moves to take court action against the alleged discrimination they face under the new catching curbs.
 
paulc
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:09 pm

As an Englishman I find it distateful that many Scots generally want the English to fail at sport. Yes I will support England in any sporting event but would also hope that Scotland, Wales and NI do well. There was a lot of sympathy for Wales in their euro 2004 play off yet less so for Scotland because of the anti english feeling they demonstrated during the last football world cup (ie supporting Argentina)

English First, British Second, european Never!
 
gkirk
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:42 pm

Last world cup we supported Brazil  Smile Argentina was in 1998  Smile
Go Brazil and Argentina! Big grin
Go Holland for Euro 2004 Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
paulc
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:01 pm

England played Argentina - with a 1-0 win as the result - i was watching it in HK at the time
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
gkirk
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:11 pm

Oh yeah, forgot about that one  Sad The dive for the penalty  Sad
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
go canada!
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RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:22 am

" hope that Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland get a bit more freedom instead of listening to everything from Number 10..."

well i did have to laugh, what policy is realli imposed on scotland? they wont have top up fees or foundation hospitials and dont have their airports being upgrade, they dont have their train service in chaos either.

"Maybe if Wales and Scotland weren't always having business taken away from them and being sent to other regions of the UK they would both be better off"

well, that made me laugh further, have you been to cardiff recently? london law firms are moving to cardiff because its cheaper, cardiffs being regenerated, now where do you think the money is coming from? the uk goverment.

Glasgows being regenerated, where do you think the money is coming from? via the uk goverment.

northern ireland and walkes benefit from masses of eu funding, england itself doesnt.

go independent, we really dont care, it will be ourselves and northern ireland and we will be happy with that, of course what your forgetting is that your still have the same ruler(eg prince of wales or the queen) and your still be in the eu so when it boils down to it nothing much will change except you wont have the english helping you.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
GC
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N.

Tue Jan 13, 2004 2:55 am

"well i did have to laugh, what policy is realli imposed on scotland? they wont have top up fees or foundation hospitials and dont have their airports being upgrade, they dont have their train service in chaos either.

"

Can anyone say POLL TAX? Also there is the dumping of old nuclear subs, toxic waste, no say in foreign policy or taxation even though we have our own "parliament".

and, trust me, our trains are just as crap north of the border. Also EDI will be getting another runway, but still we have to pay extra to fly south then back again to go across the Atlantic because no one can see the sense in building a big North Atlantic hub in Scotland, thus eleviating the pressure on London.
 
Banco
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:05 am

The Poll Tax would be a fair point, were i not for the fact that it was abolsiehd fifteen years ago. I think many in England would agree that Thatcher seem to view Scotland as a political laboratory, and Tories reaped the whirlwind as a result. It has no relevance to devolved Scotland whatsoever.

As for the airports, honestly I'm amazed that this still manages to come up as an issue. It's called supply and demand. Five million people live in Scotland, it's hardly surprising that the airlines concentrate on the 50 million who live in England, and the 25 million in the London catchment area.

If there was money to be made from the regions, airlines would be flocking there. They aren't because there isn't.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:03 am

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:24 am

and, trust me, our trains are just as crap north of the border

...despite generous operating subsidies from the centre. I'm curious how Scottish rail services would cope if they got average, or even below-average funding per passenger-km.

no say in foreign policy or taxation even though we have our own "parliament".

Scotland has 1 seat in parliament for every 70,000 people.
England has 1 seat in parliament for every 93,000 people.

Also, Scottish MPs can vote on purely English internal matters; but not vice versa. Scotland is clearly over-represented (and over-funded), not under-represented, in comparison to England.
Cunning linguist
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Independence; England, Wales, Scotland And N. Ireland

Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:04 pm

The over-representation in Scotland is deliberate, Bobrayner. It was designed to counterweight the huge difference in population between England and Scotland to ensure that Scotland was fairly represented in Parliament. Of course, now they have their own Parliament...  Insane
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.

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