vafi88
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Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:16 pm

You know what I'm talking about guys!

Bush wants to "increase budget" for this and that, increase this by 55% and this by 300 million dollars a year - Quick question - WHERE DOES THIS MONEY COME FROM???

If we're in a deficit of 477 BILLION dollars, why increase anything at all?

Think about this - more needed money means inflation - quick inflation is bad... the only other possible way out is an increase in Taxes, also something we don't see happening...

So are we digging ourselves a 500 Billion dollar hole right now? or am I missing something very important here.

Quick note: DON'T TURN THIS INTO A REP vs. DEM WAR!!! thank you for your time.

Vitaly
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
JAL777
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:19 pm

 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:26 pm

Bush hasn't yet learned how to quit digging.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:27 pm

JAL777 - maybe if you knew something other than how to post links or pictures, you'd actually argue your point, but being an ignorant person you are, you decide to put others down.

I asked a question, either contribute, or get the hell out...  Pissed

Vitaly
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DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:28 pm

I think the current Bush plan is just to keep borrowing until the deficit is paid off.

Did I miss something?

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Guest

RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:30 pm

Actually Vafi... JAL777 makes a very good point. Rather than giving you the knowledge he suggests you earn it by actually picking up a book on economics and figuring it out. Its the only thing that separates those of us with a brain from Democrats.
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:32 pm

Can you not read Startvalve??? I asked 1) not to make this into a Rep vs Dem war, and 2) to give me an opinion about the president's actions in the economy, not the economy itself.

God, is it really that hard to read a few lines??
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:39 pm

As I am currently taking Econ, I have learned a few things about his well-meaning, though not well thought-out plan. The Idea is that if you cut the taxes, that puts money back in the hands of the consumer, who spends the money, causing it to go back into the economy, as the businesses then get richer, Then the tax can be increased on them, allowing more money to fall back into the hands of the government.

The only problem with this is the amount of time it takes to happen. A really long time, while the debt still accumulates, eventually causing bankruptcy unless the market rebounds.

A short-term tax hike would, in my own opinion, be much more desirable because it would quickly put money directly in the hands of the government, who could then pay off the debt quicker, rather than letting it accumulate.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Guest

RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:42 pm

No I can't read Vafi, I just bang random characters on the keyboard until the spell checker stops bugging me.
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:45 pm

Startvalve - my suspicions have been proven true... That rambling nonsense is pretty boring and thick. At least you spell right...
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
Illini_152
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:57 pm

As I am currently taking Econ, I have learned a few things about his well-meaning, though not well thought-out plan. The Idea is that if you cut the taxes, that puts money back in the hands of the consumer, who spends the money, causing it to go back into the economy, as the businesses then get richer, Then the tax can be increased on them, allowing more money to fall back into the hands of the government.

The only problem with this is the amount of time it takes to happen. A really long time, while the debt still accumulates, eventually causing bankruptcy unless the market rebounds.

A short-term tax hike would, in my own opinion, be much more desirable because it would quickly put money directly in the hands of the government, who could then pay off the debt quicker, rather than letting it accumulate.


Close, very close, but not quite how trickle down economics works. Instead of later raising taxes on buisinesses once they "get richer", your revenue increases with the increase in tax base. Example- let's say your company's net profits are $100,000, and you're taxed at 35%- the government "makes" $35,000 off of you. Now let's say that there is a tax cut, now you're only being taxed at 25%, you now only pay $25,000 to the government, and take the $10 grand, and reinvest it back into your company. The next year, your profits are up- now your year-end profit is $150,000, but at 25%, you now pay $37,000 to the government. They lowered the rate, but take in more money. Of course, there's more- if you've hired more people in that year, because of your increased profits, that creates more jobs, and more people paying taxes, and more revenue for the government.

The problem with a short-term tax hike, especially in this economy, is that a tax increase takes money OUT of the economy, that will slow growth in the private sector both by limiting consumer spending (people have less money to spend) and slowing job growth (less consumer spending AND higher overhead with higher taxes) Those two effects would more than likely cancel out any increase in revenue from the higher tax rates, as you'd be taxing less money.

--
Mike
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
B2707SST
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:30 pm

The government finances deficits by borrowing from private financial markets. It does this by selling Treasury debt in the bond markets. The accumulated Treasury debt, called the national debt, is currently at $7 trillion. The government has to borrow an extra $1 billion a day just to cover the deficit. The problem is that the money spent is diverted from private uses. At this point, there's no overall economic impact. We've simply diverted private investment to government spending. Keep this in mind when you hear politicians tell you that the government "creates jobs," as if all we have to do is wave a magic wand (or flick the pen) and jobs come popping out of a hat.

As Mike mentioned, the argument for tax cuts, as opposed to more spending, is that tax cuts affect economic incentives: lower tax rates encourage people to work harder, open new businesses and expand existing business, save, invest, etc. There is substantial statistical evidence that lower taxes have a positive effect on the economy, and in some instances can pay for themselves over time, but it takes a while (the lag is thought to be a few years). In the meantime, we run up large deficits.

The alternative to deficit financing is to actually pay for government operations by printing new money. You are correct that this creates rapid inflation. Many Latin American countries, as well as Germany and Austria after World War I, tried this. The result is hyperinflation, which can be so bad that prices double every few days. Hyperinflation destroys entire economies, as Germany found out in the 1920s; Austria wised up, stopped printing money, and brought the inflation to a halt. In the US, the power to manipulate the money supply is delegated to the Federal Reserve, which is not subject to political constraints and (theoretically) can't be forced to monetize government debt.

I think the current Bush plan is just to keep borrowing until the deficit is paid off.

Unfortunately true. It's also the Democratic plan. See the "477 billion" thread for details.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2004-01-27 06:46:46]
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
JeffM
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:32 pm

Vitaly,
We don't want to raise taxes. {see above post by Mike} Increasing the budget of one program often results in a lessening of another. We have a lot that should just be discontinued all together.

What would you suggest?
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:41 pm

Discontinued... Hmmm....

Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind act, etc...

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:47 pm

Jeff - I'm not implying that the people should be responsible for paying the government (hey, if you want less money from me, I'm fine), but investing millions and over time billions of dollars into something we can outdo without money is crazy... The education fund has risen by something like 45-55% while Bush was in office, but there's not 1 thing I have seen that made this coutry's education system better...

My idea personally, instead of putting billions of dollars into kids that do drugs (I saw a kid doing coke today - what a moron) and drop out, we might as well MAKE/FORCE them to finish, and the teachers to not baby us all of the freakin time. I'm willing to do work for my future, and I want this country's future to mirror my future (success at every level) , but if all we do is invest into kids that drop out and we have to make an ALTERNATE program for them, WHY???

If the little bastard doesn't want to learn, send him to the streets. I'm not saying college, just high school, what people do after high school is up to them.

Same thing with a lot of other industries - giving private companies the right to run medicate/medicare is absurd, the gov is taking blame because they don't feel like caring for the seniors, so to redirect blame, they'll put it into a private industry... what's the point?

Vitaly
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:50 pm

Vitaly, you want to see kids do drugs, come down to Ponderosa for a day. You might not see very much intake, but you will see many users. I have seen kids popping Oxy, Vicadin, Percodan, smoking Weed, Snorting god knows what (once I paid a kid to snort powdered food coloring), and an administration that is completely blind and ignorant to all this.

WE ARE PAYING THESE PEOPLE!!!  Angry

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Alessandro
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:55 pm

Well, inflation makes US products cheaper and is good for employment, downside is that it become more expensive to borrow money due to the fact
that the US credit grade goes down.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:55 pm

Ponderosa has a good Drumline though...

Yeah, I know about 4 or 5 kids that don't do anything... the rest are on all kinds of crap... Oh well, it's their life...
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:59 pm

Don't get me started on the sorry state our band program is in with our new director. He turned one of the best programs in the state to 6th best in finals when finals are judged out of 8. There used to be 150 kids in the program, now there are only 69. The drum instructor (the one that made the drumline good) finally saw what was going on and quit. I am in my senior year now, and I was in Band until sophomore year, the first year of the new director.

that our taxes paid for.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
JeffM
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:00 pm

Vitaly,
Your idea about making or forcing a kid to finish school is not the job of government. It is impossible to enforce. It is the responsibility of parents to ensure kids learn the social skills needed to successfully make it through high school. What we do as a society, is to try and provide kids like you (that are making something out of themself), a place to do it, materials, and teachers. Your school district has a very, very strong and very, very costly union. A union fully supported by the Democratic party. If school districts did not have their hands tied by that union, many good things would be possible in education. Vouchers for instance.

I'm not sure what your saying about medicare/medicade....don't confuse them with private health insurance. And once again, you don't want the government providing health care. Private industry is what runs a market economy.
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:06 pm

Jeff - At schools around the country, the age that you can drop out is 16. I think that's low... The government could pass legislature enforcing school procedures. Also, kids can take alternate programs (computer schooling, step down schooling for those who just don't want to do anything) I know some people that do both of those. People have potential, and unless you have something horrible (mental issues/disabled), you should be doing the standard...

Vitaly
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:10 pm

Actually did you know that if you are above 18 you still can't sign yourself out of school anymore? I found that one out the hard way.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:15 pm

Yeah, but you didn't drop out...

I'm saying that people need to stay in school through their entire High school career (unless you have enough credits and graduate early).

Vitaly
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
JeffM
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:17 pm

Vitaly,
Your putting yourself into the classic "Democratic Stereotype" regarding passing legislation.... more is not better.... enforce what we have first.

Eric, if your not smart enough to figure out how to get out of school.... you should stay in.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:22 pm

I is learning up right good.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:32 pm

Jeff - how do you think we should improve our school system then???

Providing money isn't doing anything! I say keep people in school, and in check. I'm just saying whoever said that kids can drop out of school at the age of 16 is pretty stupid in my mind...

What do you guys think?
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:43 pm

I think we should keep the option of dropping out at sixteen, that way they will learn very quickly why they should have stayed in school. Every time they go to work at Jiffy Lube or King Soopers (hehe), they will learn. Plus it is a good way to rid the system of quitters and slackers.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
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sebolino
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:29 pm

Fact is JAL777 and Startvalve are unable to give arguments because there are none of them.

Bush is making a big mistake, not for him personnaly, he doesn't care. But for the next generation of Americans. Somebody will have to pay back this money. Your kids. All that for the pride of being the sole military superpower.
 
JeffM
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:58 pm

Vitaly,

I agree, throwing money at the problem won't work, but that is a Democratic solution historically... Forcing kids to stay in school won't work, making them want to stay on the other hand....

I think the way to improve the school system is through competition, not endless regulation. Competition in the market place brings better goods at lower prices.... agreed? Implementing school voucher programs brings a level of competion to the school system. The schools that figure out what the people want, and provide it at reasonable cost, get the students, and the money that comes with it. Those that can't provide it, will change to get some of the "pie" so to speak. Ask you teacher about school vouchers...He/she won't like it because of what the impact to their union is... take my word for it..

It is not an "end all" solution, there are other things that need to be revised as well, but it is a start.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:06 am

>>>The education fund has risen by something like 45-55% while Bush was in office, but there's not 1 thing I have seen that made this coutry's education system better...<<<

The overwhelming percentage of educational funding comes from locally (property taxes) and to a much lesser extent state funding. The Federal government's monetary contribution to education is a mere drop in the bucket.

Several years ago the then Gov. Florio was pummeled because he raised NJ state taxes. I applauded. The reason being was the state was able increase its funding of education somewhat lifting the burden off the homeowner (property tax relief).

>>>Bush is making a big mistake, not for him personnaly, he doesn't care. But for the next generation of Americans. Somebody will have to pay back
this money. Your kids. All that for the pride of being the sole military superpower.
<<<

I'll have to repectfully disagree. Regardless who is President, I believe they care. I don't like deficits, but I feel a robust economy can reduce them better than increasing taxation. I believe this can be done surprisingly fast, just look at the 1990's.

I look at it as the government has its problems and I have mine. Unfortunately the government can put their problems before mine by the power of legislating higher taxes. I have no such authority.

But if the government puts a hold or cuts taxes, I'll spend more. Thereby paying more taxes indirectly (sales tax, etc) and increasing employment (have others pay income tax) and those employed people become consumers as well.

You and I might have different views on military spending but one thing I'm pretty sure. The American mindset of our military size has little or nothing to do with pride of being a superpower but rather pragmatism. Up until 9/11 the focus of the government was to cut military expendatures, bases, etc.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Guest

RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:09 am

Actually sebolino you need to grab a copy of an economics text book as well. There are arguments for it. See reply 10, that is exactly what is going on. I am sure whatever excuse for a government France has does something similar when there is a slight economic downturn.

The thing they teach you on the very first day of business school is the economy is cyclical. There WILL be ups and there WILL be downs. The president himself has between little and nothing to do with this. IF the government went totally hands off and you graphed whatever economic indicators you use it would probably come out to something resembling a sine wave. But as they will teach you on the first day of any basic economics class no country can exist with a totally lassiez faire economy since there need to be controls to ensure our quality of life, product safety and a million other things the government needs to do.
 
vafi88
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:16 am

Wow, startvalve, smart... The thing is, you never read my post in the first place... I'm not blaming bush for the DRASTIC DOWNHILL (in this thread) whatever, what I am worried about is inflation... slow, steady inflation is good (Agreed?) makes people have more money to spend and lead better lives. Fast inflation, on the other hand, might be good for the rich (hmmm) and everything drops!!! See the 1920-30 deficit due to inflation...

A fast growing economy isn't all that great long term...

Jeff - compitition or not, some kids decide that they are too smart for school, and drop out... we're left with people begging for money and welfare and stuff like that. Compitition isn't a HAVE TO DO kind of thing, some do it, and some are left in the dust... and our money is in the dust as well...
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
JeffM
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:22 am

O.k.

So making a kid finish school artificially with a "D" average helps who?

I'm not sure you understand the competition aspect of what I said, so I will just leave it at that. If you want more rules in school, more people that don't want to be there causing problems, have at it. If you want to purge the slackers and trouble makers and free up resources currently wasted on them, and put them to better use, re-read what I wrote.

Your fast/slow inflation analogy does not work for me either, but nice try.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:44 am

The president himself has between little and nothing to do with this.

Well, if you really think the Pdt is not responsible for the huge debt of your country, that's perhaps because you missed the first lesson of political economy ?
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Where Does All Of This Money Come From?!?!?!

Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:46 am

Jeff, I think that is a good Idea. Purge the school of slackers and trouble makers, send them to DC Oaks, or Eagle, or somewhere like that, some drop out school. That way the resources aren't wasted on kids who will go nowhere in life anyway. Put the resources where they need to go, If you can't pull a C average, you lose. Sure these fall back schools could also be used to help out the people who fall, and once the kids are back up to a B average in that school, then they can be put back into the system, but if they fall back down again, then they just finish their education in step-down.

Don't waste resources on those who will never use them.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same

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