MD-90
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What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:19 am

Sourced from
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/payne200402060846.asp

Michigan, is of course, home to lots of unionized Big Three workers. Who don't really care for CAFE and the Democrats' green positions. So what do the Democratic contenders for the nomination drive, since after all, Republicans are the ones who want to burn down the rain forests, despoil the Artic Wildlife Refuge with oil spills, poison the rivers, etc?

Lest we not forget this gem from Al Gore that the internal combustion engine was a "mortal threat to the security of every nation that is more deadly than that of any military enemy we are ever again likely to confront."

Ouch.

John Kerry: Wants CAFE expanded to 36 MPG for both SUVs and cars, up from ~21 MPG today (I think). Let's see, he has

Well, we have a couple of Chrysler minivans," begins Kerry the seasoned politician, who long ago learned to buy American brands only. "We have a Jeep. . . and a PT Cruiser up in Boston. . .and we have some SUVs. . . and an old Dodge 600 that I keep in the Senate. . . and. . . ." And suddenly, Kerry the Average American Buyer is Kerry the Blueblood with more cars than he can count. And that's not his only political faux pas. His PT Cruiser is built in Mexico. Oops.

When prodded about whether he buys anything other than Chrysler products, Kerry is quick to add: "Oh yes, I also have a Chevy. A big Suburban." Stop the presses! The King of CAFÉ owns the most notorious gas-guzzler in the U.S. fleet, GM's super-sized 13-mpg SUV! The moral high ground is lost.


Wesley Clark: "I drive a Mazda Miata and a Mercedes E320," states the general. Both foreign-made. Both good cars. Both political disasters: Neither soccer moms nor NASCAR dads drive Miatas or Mercedes.

Howard Dean: Dean apparently favors government regulation of autos because he himself is incapable of self-restraint. Dean admits he owns "two Ford Explorers." Miles per gallon: 15. Stop me before I SUV again

I was expecting a Subaru Outback or something. You see a gazillion of those up in Connecticut and Mass.

Dennis Kucinich: The real tree-hugger of the bunch, he's big on hybrid vehicles. But he drives a pedestrian gasoline sucking Ford Focus.

Which actually isn't so bad compared to the rest of the group. It's made in America, at least..

John Edwards: is the only candidate who didn't answer the car question (perhaps Michigan is too far north for the avowed southern candidate), but his press clippings are littered with jaunts in minivans and SUVs. An owner of four homes, Edwards's multimillionaire-lawyer lifestyle suggests a commitment to conspicuous consumption. No wonder fuel-economy issues rank well down his issue list. Like his overall green agenda ("Preserve clean air. Keep water pure.") his auto stance is also vague and perfunctory: "Edwards supports increased fuel efficiency standards for cars."


What's in your garage? My Camry and my sister's Civic are both pretty fuel efficient. The Grand Caravan average 26.6 MPG on the way up to Connecticut this Christmas. But Mom's POS Lumina is a hog and the F-150 with ancient 5.0 is a real gas guzzler. Plus it costs over $50 to fill the dual tanks. Ouch.

Greg doesn't have to respond, M5s are so worth it they're obviously exempt (although maybe one would drive Howard Dean into another YEEEAAAAARGH rage).
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:32 am

1998 Camaro Z28 M6 w/ mods. Gets shitty gas milage, but I dont care.

-Delta767300ER
 
aloges
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:39 am

So now a Bush fan tries to resort to making the Democratic candidates look silly even before the primaries are over and in the process making a **mbf**k out of himself? Sheesh, if that upcoming presidential election and the credibility of a president are all about SUVs in garages, I ask you to



And no, I'm not trying to be funny.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:45 am

John Kerry wants CAFE expanded to 36 MPG for both SUVs and cars, up from ~21 MPG today (I think).

This is a bad thing? I like my chevy silverado which is comparable in gas mileage to the SUV's, but I don't see a problem with having more fuel-efficient vehicles. I realize that by saying this, I sound hypocritical, but I would trade in my Chevy Silverado for a more fuel-efficient version.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
aloges
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:54 am

DLKAPA,

that doesn't sound hypocritical. If you want to drive a large car, well fine. If you've got one and like it, even better. If you realise that a better gas mileage is desirable, why should that be hypocritical?


The issue that's hardly ever adressed, but deserves as much attention as global warming is exhaustion of resources. Global warming is influenced by many factors, with industrial CO2 emissions being one of them.

But what will people do when there's no oil left? What will we make our plastics from, our flavours, our medicine, our lubricants, our solvents? I could go on forever, but the point is: oil should be considered a valuable resource, not just the stuff you fill your tank up with.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:01 am

Did you know that the United States is home to 5% of the world's population, yet produces 20% of the world's greenhouse gasses? I learned that in Econ today.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
aloges
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:04 am

Well, if you look at it that way, give the US credit for the part of the global GDP (or what it should be called) it produces. It still doesn't make things perfect, but puts them into perspective.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
B2707SST
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:53 am

The US accounts for about $10.1 trillion of the world's estimated $47 trillion economic output, giving us a 21.5% share.

http://www.wallstreetview.com/GDPRankings.html

Keeping this in mind, the oft-repeated assertion that the US consumes 20-25% of the world's resources is not so outrageous, especially when one considers that we have lower population density and more dispersed population centers than many other industrialized nations, meaning higher transportation costs. Australia is an even better example; IIRC, it has (or recently had) the highest per-capita energy use in the 30 OECD members, mostly because of climate and distance.

Aloges:

True, oil has many uses other than transporation, but these are included in the market price of petroleum products. The price of any particular petroleum product is influenced by the alternative uses forgone in the production process (the "opportunity costs"). When oil begins to run low, prices for crude oil, gas, kerosene, plastic, etc., will begin to rise, providing incentives for consumers to conserve, explorers to find new oil reserves, and innovators to come up with alternative energy sources. Until that point, there is no "better" price for oil than the market price, which by definition captures all sources and uses for oil.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
JAL777
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:00 am

Did you know that the United States is home to 5% of the world's population, yet produces 20% of the world's greenhouse gasses? I learned that in Econ today.


Did you read the rest of the Economics book yet?
 
MD-90
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:04 pm

Mmmm.... except that most of those "greenhouse gases" are actually molecules of carbon dioxide. Which, coincidentally, plants love and I'm not all that worried about.

It would be nice, DLKAPA, but it is currently not economically feasible. Low sulfur standards for diesel in the US are coming, which should help a lot. Your truck would get much better gas mileage with a diesel ... too bad GM doesn't see much of a market for it.
 
L-188
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:29 pm

Wasn't low sulfer mandated to be used about two years ago?

I wish more diesels would be sold in the US, even though here in Alaska they can be a royal pain in the arse to start when they are cold.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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sebolino
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 6:57 pm

Mmmm.... except that most of those "greenhouse gases" are actually molecules of carbon dioxide. Which, coincidentally, plants love and I'm not all that worried about.

You can say you don't care about environment, but that ... that's just stupid.

Plants have much more CO2 available than needed and the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing regularly. And when the plants don't grow up, they have a net CO2 consumption of 0.
You don't care a shit, but it actually changes the climate !
 
buckfifty
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:23 pm

Mmmm.... except that most of those "greenhouse gases" are actually molecules of carbon dioxide. Which, coincidentally, plants love and I'm not all that worried about.

If you have to put it that way, we seem to have less of those too these days.
 
aloges
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:48 pm

The problem with CO2 generated when oil is burnt is that it "old" CO2. The plants that absorbed it millions of years ago and became oil (or coal) lived on a warmer planet, with part of that being due to a higher CO2 concentration in the atmosphere. When those plants had died, they were in one way or the other sealed off from the rest of the world and became oil, so the CO2 in them was taken out of natural circulation. Possible result: lower average temperatures on the surface of the Earth due to lowered atmospheric CO2 concentration.

If mankind now proceeds to burn much of that oil and thus injecting the "old" CO2 back into circulation, what is likely to happen? You got it, an increase in average temperatures on the surface of the Earth due to raised atmospheric CO2 concentration.

It's probably not a problem that mankind couldn't deal with (we've proven to be able to survive just about everything), but a gigantic burden for the future. You might want to say "So what?" every time someone tells you that reefs are dying because of higher water temperatures, but you wouldn't be saying that if a reef was all that keeps you from losing your home.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Superfly
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:11 pm

THIS IS WHY SUPERFLY NEEDS TO BE THE PRESIDENT!

In my garage, I have a 1977 Lincoln Town Car made in Wixom, Michigan!
100% American made by the proud men & woman who belong to the UAW!


What do I use everyday to get to and from work?
Public transit electric street car. Something all civilized societies should have in major metropolitan areas.
The car comes in handy for trips up the coast, touring wine country or a latenight booty call. Big grin


I am not too concened about CAFE standards on 'true' SUVs because there is a law of PHYSICS that neither Democrats or Republicans can touch. The truck based SUVs are OK as long as they come with a diesel engine and 4X4 drive. The only people that check the diesel option actually have a need for these vehicles.
Car-based SUVs should all be melted down and used as beer cans.  Smile

[Edited 2004-02-07 12:13:24]

[Edited 2004-02-07 12:14:43]
Bring back the Concorde
 
zak
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:13 pm

did you know that 1 litre oil had originally consisted from about 10thousand tons of biomass.
that should tell you what kind of moronic waste the current politics are and how important it is to improve the efficiency of its usage.
oil is something very precious and limited, we need to stop wasting it.
10=2
 
L-188
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:15 pm

Ummm Larry.

The only people that check the diesel option actually have a need for these vehicles.

I know lots of people who have SUV's and will never get one with a diesel.

If you have ever tried to start a diesel motor that has been cold soaked all night during an Alaskan winter, you will understand why.

Gas motors do tend to start easier in those conditions.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
aloges
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:17 pm

"If you have ever tried to start a diesel motor that has been cold soaked all night during an Alaskan winter, you will understand why."

With one more problem being "How do I melt that fuel?!"  Laugh out loud
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Airplanepics
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:18 pm

Aloges, It would be nice if you asked me to use my alien dude, before you go and nick it.
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
L-188
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:21 pm

Hey. there is a reason why Diesel trucks are never shut off in Prudhoe Bay in January.

With one more problem being "How do I melt that fuel?!"

Yes, But it is cheaper when you buy it in a 50 lb block.

[Edited 2004-02-07 12:22:41]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Superfly
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:26 pm

L-188:
Have they considered engine block heaters?


Zak:
oil is something very precious and limited, we need to stop wasting it.

I agree. Problem is that the barons runing the industry are very short sighted and don't give a rat's a$$ about the future (Dick & Bush).
Although I get 7 MPG city, 13 MPG hiway, I hardly drive the damn thing. I use PUBLIC TRANSIT for my everyday use. It's cheaper, easier, don't have to worry about parking, putting up with stupid drivers, bike messengers, pedestrians, etc..

I only put 4,000 miles on my car all year. Cars are great for those long road trips to the Grand Canyon and picking up Alex (An-225) from SFOBig grin
For the most part, public transit is the best ideal for everyday use in large metro areas.
The Europeans have been doing it for years and the USA did it years ago in more cities than today.
Goodyear, Standard Oil and Mack trucks had a ot to do with that demise.  Sad
Bring back the Concorde
 
L-188
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:29 pm

L-188:
Have they considered engine block heaters?



We have them, but you still need to find a place to plug it in!!!

[Edited 2004-02-07 12:30:49]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Superfly
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:30 pm

L-188:
OK Prudhoe Bay is an exception but in about 25 years, there will be no more oil left up there to drill. Therefore no more industry and thus, the Penguins and Polar Bears will reclaim there land.  Laugh out loud
Bring back the Concorde
 
L-188
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:34 pm

the Penguins and Polar Bears will reclaim there land.

Wrong hemisphere for penguins, unless they are from Pittsburg  Laugh out loud

That is definately true if we are prohibitied from looking at other location, particularly the 2000 acres of the 1020 area of ANWR that borders Prudhoe Bay. That area was promised by Carter to be opened for exploration when ANWR was created.

My stated feelings is that oil is going to become too valuable to use a fuel and at some point alternatives to oil will become cost-effective.

[Edited 2004-02-07 12:35:04]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Superfly
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:46 pm

L-188:
 Embarrassment That's right, the pengiuns are at the South Pole. Embarrassment


Electric cars are butt-f**k UGLY!
If they can make an electric full-size rear drive sedan with the same power as the equivalant gas engine, then it will make since.
Bring back the Concorde
 
L-188
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:47 pm

Except you still have to generate the electricty to power the batteries somehow.


That and batteries loose efficency and power as it gets cold too.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Superfly
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:58 pm

L-188:
Well I guess our grandchildren will live in huts in villages, eating fruits & nuts beating drums, smoking pot and practicing yoga.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
L-188
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:59 pm

Well I guess our grandchildren will live in huts in villages, eating fruits & nuts beating drums, smoking pot and practicing yoga

I thought our parents did that at WoodStock.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Superfly
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:01 pm

L-188:
They saw in to the future.  Smile
I guess they had better drugs back then.  Laugh out loud
Bring back the Concorde
 
Goose
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:06 pm

L-188:
Have they considered engine block heaters?


The comment was made before that you often can't find a place to plug in your truck in some places where you might need to park.

In some north-country towns I've been to, there's a simple solution to that problem if you own a diesel-powered vehicle, in wintertime; unless it's in a heated garage, it's left running. All day. All the time.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
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sebolino
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 9:45 pm

If you have ever tried to start a diesel motor that has been cold soaked all night during an Alaskan winter

Oh yeah !! Many of us are VERY concerned by what's happening in Alaska.

Why don't you speak about antarctic also ?
 
aloges
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:28 pm

Sebolino, the guy (L-188) is from Alaska! So he does have a point when he talks about the problems Diesel engines have during winter.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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sebolino
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:48 pm

Yes, I know that. What I mean is that it's not a general argument.
 
zak
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:03 pm

in my opinion if someplace has such a harsh enviroment that you can only live there destroying parts of it, you shouldnt live there. if you chose to live in alaska but argue that you can only make a living there if the destruction of nature with oil drilling persists, you might want to look for other residences.
but promoting the overthrowing of nationalparks etc just to have a better living is really no option in my very humble opinon. there are vast areas where people can live without such issues.
and if they chose to live in alaska or patagonia, deal with how its there.
10=2
 
L-188
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sat Feb 07, 2004 11:53 pm

in my opinion if someplace has such a harsh enviroment that you can only live there destroying parts of it, you shouldnt live there

Name one place on this planet where man exists and doesn't destroy part of it in the process.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sun Feb 08, 2004 6:34 pm

1998 Ford Mustang -- 19 city 22 highway MPG
Puhdiddle
 
cfalk
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Editi

Sun Feb 08, 2004 7:06 pm

in my opinion if someplace has such a harsh enviroment that you can only live there destroying parts of it, you shouldnt live there. if you chose to live in alaska but argue that you can only make a living there if the destruction of nature with oil drilling persists, you might want to look for other residences.

Good God how arrogant. By who's standards are you talking about? People must do what they have to do, no more no less. The wilderness will regenerate itself after humans are dead and gone.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
aloges
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:51 pm

Zak, even a mouse destroys parts of the environment it lives in. Beavers create entire new biotopes. Elephants eat entire acacia woods.

The question is not whether we destroy parts of the environment we live in (and we do that e.g. by building our homes), but whether we destroy it altogether.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Editi

Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:59 am

Also for those of you in love with Diesel, have you seen what it costs lately? It costs more per gallon than gasoline does in many places thanks to those silly enviromental standards requiring it to be very low sulfur and who knows how else its been reformulated in recent years.

While leaving them run all night is ok, you can also get a block heater in most diesel engines that will keep them warm enough to start up in the mornings. I don't know about -25 temps in Alaska but an N-14 Cummins fires right up on a 0 degree Ohio morning if its been plugged in all night. Yes the fuel will gel if it gets cold enough, i think the plug in heater must heat the lines or the residual heat keeps it from turning to jello.

Also with the new emissions standards being put in place for heavy trucks (signed into law by Clinton) diesel is getting less practical. In most cases the new emissions controls for a heavy truck amount to a converter the size of a 55gal drum being strapped to the exaust somewhere, this also adds a few thousand pounds to the total vehicle weight making it even harder for a trucking company to stay profitable since they are limited pretty much only by weight in what they can haul. All these silly emissions requirements will be filtering their way down to the home diesel users sooner or later. That is probably why GM sees no future in it.
 
MD-90
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Mon Feb 09, 2004 9:51 am

I don't think that low sulfur standards are silly at all. You can use better and more efficient engines with it.

Superfly that is unbelievable. We had a 1986 26 foot long Fleetwood Jamboree Rallye class C motorhome with a Ford 460 that got 7.5 MPG. Better than your sedan! Only 6.5 MPG with the generator running, though. I didn't care too much for the engine, though, because it had an issue with idling and sometimes when it was hot outside it would die when you were stopped, although shifting it into neutral usual prevented that. Strange. Very nice motorhome for a reasonable price, though (we got it in 1994 for $15,000; sold it in 1998 for $14,000). It did have good power and could've easily pulled a boat or something behind it.
 
cancidas
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:16 am

very soon i'll be owning this:



now before you all start ripping on me for it again, listen to this: "i don't care what anyone has to say, i'm still buying it."
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
MD-90
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:11 pm

I don't think anyone's going to say much, Cancidas, when they can't see what it is.
 
cfalk
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Editi

Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:22 pm

Matchbox?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
BN747
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Editi

Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:23 pm

It looks like a hearst...am I right?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Superfly
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Mon Feb 09, 2004 4:29 pm

Cancidas:
Do this come stock with a rainbow flag?
Those Honda Pilots are very popular with the guy dudes here in SFO.
You can take home the cutest guy from the techno club with that thing!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy  Laugh out loud
Bring back the Concorde
 
Guest

RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Editi

Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:28 pm

Its one of those silly Honda Element thingies I think. Since he doesn't care what I say I'll say what I think. Its a silly vehicle designed for the college kid that does a lot of road trips. It looks like a box on wheels because it is. It has a lot of intererior space and is powered by a gerbil so it gets decent fuel economy while scaring the crap out of all occupants while trying to get onto a 70mph stretch of interstate from an uphill onramp fully loaded. Its priced somewhere between a crack-ho and a Kia making it even more appealing to the college kid market. It actually appears to be fugly enough that its catching on with the targeted demographic.
 
Superfly
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RE: What's In Your Garage - Democratic Party Edition

Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:46 am

Startvalve:
Thanks for correcting me. I really try to ignore these eyesoars on the street.
Bring back the Concorde

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