Russophile
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Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:33 pm

Am getting word in from people in Moscow that a mere 10 minutes ago, Vladimir Putin went on Russian TV and announced that he was dismissing the entire Federal government.

Not entirely sure as to why Putin has done this, but I am sure reasons will come to light in the coming hours.
 
SimpleMinded
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:41 pm

I have no idea, but can he even do that?





ciao
SM
Um, I like..... yea ok
 
Russophile
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:51 pm

Of course he can SM -- he's the President Big grin

Russian presidential elections are coming up on 14 March, and with the election process, the government steps down anyway -- so the end of this current government would have come to an end then -- but what Putin has done is basically sacked the government now -- Kasyanov is out -- Khristenko is in as temporary Prime Minister.

Will have to see what is happening with this, but one thing is for certain, Putin is obviously showing his hand early -- tighten his grip on power in Russia -- there are still too many Yeltsinites in the Russian government (re: Kasyanov) -- something which does stop Putin from doing the job effectively for which is elected to do.

[Edited 2004-02-24 14:53:36]
 
Stratofish
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:01 am

"there are still too many Yeltsinites in the Russian government (re: Kasyanov) -- something which does stop Putin from doing the job effectively for which is elected to do."

What do you mean with that? too many alcoholics? old guys?
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Russophile
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:11 am

It means Kasyanov is a leftover from the days of Yeltsin. Under the new government, which is now being thought will feature Khrischenko (won't know for sure until after Presidential elections), Putin is going to be pushing for a return of Russia as a superpower -- he has every intent of doing as much, and needs the team with him -- the days of Yeltsin-esque politics and the oligarchs in Russia are drawing to a close, and there will be a total redefining of Russia in the next 4 years under Putin, when he is re-elected.
 
artsyman
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:51 am

C an we do that here ?, can the entire Federal government just get together and sack Bush ?

J
 
jutes85
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:34 am

Russia needs the right people to lead the country into prosperity. Putin might be that man to give the only superpower of the this world a run for its money.
nothing
 
Goose
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:37 am

C an we do that here ?, can the entire Federal government just get together and sack Bush ?

It's called impeachment. Sure you can. Just remember, though, that the last President to go through the impeachment process was Clinton...... and he won by a hair.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Sonic
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:30 am

It seems new prime minister was taken. He was previously unkown person and, according to V. Putin, "honourable man". However, it seems that he was chosen because he has no desire to go "higher" (for example, be president after Putin, since this term is Putin's last unless he changes constitution). Currently there are some reforms planned and a PM who will do them will probably loose popularity.

Russophile (Aviatsiya?), Putin certainly won't put Russia as superpower if he will continue current policy. Well, he might put it as a military superpower, but just as USSR example shown, a military superpower can't exist too long if not supported by economy. As I understand, you are not living in Russia and just you are obssesed with it for some strange reason. In which case you probably would want to see it as a mighty country, however, except for some old communists and nazi youth, I don't think many people in Russia would want their country to be mighty anymore than they would want it to be on economically better situation. You know probably about recent great flaws in military "tactical show" (don't know correct English term). They shows the current situation of whole Russian military - it is large indeed, it has some technology, mostly from Soviet times, which is still quite on par with western technology (but behind US). However, lack of funding, bribery (sons of richer parents doesn't go to the army because their parents just pays where it is needed) and other such problems brings it down. And without economical boost Russia will not be able to erase these problems (in my opinion).
 
gkirk
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:52 am

Russophile (Aviatsiya?)
------
So it isnt just me that thinks that  Smile
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
North County
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:54 am

Sonic,

Your English might not be perfect but your summary of the situation is right on target.

I think the Russian people deserve more butter and less guns....

Russophile,

Did they reach you on your shoe phone?

[Edited 2004-03-04 00:56:01]
 
MD-90
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:25 am

Trust me, Russophile is NOT Aviatsiya.
 
North County
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:54 am

is "Aviatsiya" the USSR airforce or navel airforce?
 
Sonic
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:04 am

North_County,
Thanks for support of my opinion. Aviatsiya means "Aviation" in Russian. What I (and GKirk) meant was a certain former user, who was banned for flooding forums. He was non-Russian himself but very obsessed with Russia.

GKirk, I have had this thought almost since Russophile joined.

[Edited 2004-03-04 02:05:59]
 
North County
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:38 am

Sonic,

Your welcome.

There is more then one person obsessed with Russia, God help us!
 
kolobokman
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:13 am

Why is it wrong to be "obsessed" with a country?
Sonic is a Lithuanian nationalist and North County is a yank  Smile

Putin certainly won't put Russia as superpower if he will continue current policy.

Why is that? What about that continuous economic growths since 1998? Current policy is what is moving Russia out of "the dark times". And military reforms underway will make Russian military only smaller ))
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
Sonic
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:28 am

North_Country, agree with you here too  Smile

Being obsessed with country to such extent as 'former member' was is quite ridiculous. You, being Russian, might not understand this (probably I would like if someone would be obsessed with Lithuania too), but imagine if person would be so obsessed with any other country. E.g. Iraq (this is directed at Saddam's Iraq). He would post in every related and many non related threads, tell how Iraq is the beacon of human rights, how wars against Iran and Kuwait were perfectly justifable (like that user posted about Chechnyan war), how mighty Iraq is and how it will win against USA, etc. It is OK for one or several threads, to support one or several political decitions of that country. But after it becomes widespread and person supports and defends litterally everything government of that country does, it becomes somewhat ridiculous. Heck, even me, as you labeled, "Lithuanian nationalist", don't agree with each of the decitions my government does  Smile .

Kolobokman, could you please prove your words and tell how is Putin's policy getting Russia out of dark times in your opinion (what dark times? economically? politically? internationally?)? Economic growths are in all eastern Europe and it's understandable, knowing the destruction of socialism. And Russia isn't one of countries which has the biggest growth, thus that growth doesn't really shows the situation. Except for 1998 crisis, under Yeltsin economy also grown.

[Edited 2004-03-05 03:41:11]
 
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STT757
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:30 am

"C an we do that here ?, can the entire Federal government just get together and sack Bush"

Of course, even the population can recall Bush (look at Arnold in California).

The BIG difference is that here there has to be a vote, over there they just do what ever the heck they want.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
North County
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:40 am

Russia as a super power was a good thing for our family business in the 1960's and 1970's.

They built many a bomb shelter in La Jolla, Ranch Santa Fe, and Del Mar, CA.

Now they are all being used as wine cellars I guess,.....have to blame Reagan for the drop off in sales...

Russia has to have 10- 15 years of sizable economic growth that outstrips the world average before they will be one of the top two superpowers again....

and all the will their stock pile of nukes is getting older everyday....
 
ben
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:08 am

There is more then one person obsessed with Russia, God help us!

Nobody is 'obsessed' with anything. Using your definition, I'm also be classed as being obsessed with it too... actually, I'd move there tomorrow if it was possible.

It's just that someone has to defend, or at least present to you, the other side of the picture.

In the 'west' and particularly the USA, we still seem to have a pretty bad cold-war hangover.

Be enlightened.
 
North County
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:07 am

Ben - Humor

"Oh God" in this case was said in humor.

Now why does someone have to defend something unless they believe what they are writing in the first place? Argue for augment sake?

What is a "bad cold war hangover?"

Comments about Russia returning to it's former Soviet Superpower standing anytime soon or that the USSR didn't lose the Cold War are a little far fetched... and even more odd considering the poster who doesn't even live in Russia anymore....

Remember I am not the only one who has made these observations...
 
Russophile
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:03 am

It seems new prime minister was taken.

This is true. His name is Mikhil Fradkov

He was previously unkown person

Actually, he was Russia's highest representative in Europe. Previous posts include Minister for Foreign Economic Relations, Deputy Secretary of the Security Council and Director of the Federal Tax Police.

And he is far from being 'unknown'. The Russian Defence Minister, Sergey Ivanov, talked highly of Fradkov, and even suggested to Putin that he would be an excellent successor to Kasyanov.

according to V. Putin, "honourable man".

Well he does seem to be 'honourable' -- he isn't tainted by scandal -- he doesn't have his snout in a trough -- etc, etc

However, it seems that he was chosen because he has no desire to go "higher" (for example, be president after Putin, since this term is Putin's last unless he changes constitution). Currently there are some reforms planned and a PM who will do them will probably loose popularity.

Actually, he was chosen not because of what you imply -- partly that may be true, but moreso because he has experience in both the Soviet and post-Soviet economy and has a very liberal economic outlook on what needs to be done in Russia -- he will appoint Alexander Zhukov as his deputy -- another respected liberal economist. Putin and Fradkov have very similar views on what needs to be done in Russia -- yes, some of it will be publicly unpopular -- but by appointing a bureaucrat instead of a career politician, Putin is ensuring that he will be reasonably untouched by the economic rationalisation which will occur -- rationalisation which within 10 years is expected to double the GDP of Russia. By remaining untouched by this, it will allow Putin to continue on with the programs which he wants to implement which will allow Russia to once again be called a great nation.

Putin certainly won't put Russia as superpower if he will continue current policy.

This is the plan of Putin. Tell me exactly what with Putin's policy won't contribute to Russia becoming a superpower again.

Well, he might put it as a military superpower, but just as USSR example shown, a military superpower can't exist too long if not supported by economy.

Who said anything about military superpower?

As I understand, you are not living in Russia and just you are obssesed with it for some strange reason.

I've been there before -- know the people -- know the culture. How many times you been there again?

In which case you probably would want to see it as a mighty country, however, except for some old communists and nazi youth

What do you mean nazi youth? I thought the Lithuanians had all the nazi's these days? You know, the nations largest newspaper running a blatantly anti-Jewish article on the front page, and just recently the Lithuanian president honouring Lithuanian Nazi collaborators.  Insane

I don't think many people in Russia would want their country to be mighty anymore than they would want it to be on economically better situation.

And what do you base your opinion on? You actually asked any Russians?  Insane

You know probably about recent great flaws in military "tactical show" (don't know correct English term).

So. It's called a SNAFU -- Situation Normal All Fucked Up. You show me a full-scale military program which hasn't had a couple of failures in testing, and I'll resign to you that everything you have written isn't a load of rubbish.

They shows the current situation of whole Russian military - it is large indeed, it has some technology, mostly from Soviet times, which is still quite on par with western technology (but behind US). However, lack of funding, bribery (sons of richer parents doesn't go to the army because their parents just pays where it is needed) and other such problems brings it down. And without economical boost Russia will not be able to erase these problems (in my opinion).

Actually, what it shows is that you are generalising here to such an extent, you are presenting things as fact, when in reality it couldn't be further from the truth.

And what's your problem if I have an affinity for Russia? I have a deep interest in language, culture, society, and of course aviation. You seem to think I write that Russia can do no wrong. This is an huge assumption on your part. But I won't sit idly by and watch the bullshit which has been written about Russia over the last 100 years to continue to be written and believed by idiots who are not capable of critical thought.

The BIG difference is that here there has to be a vote, over there they just do what ever the heck they want.

The BIG difference is that you don't know what you are talking about. Anything which Putin has done has been within the confines of the Russian constitution -- a document which was VOTED on by the Russian population.
 
Sonic
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:33 am

I was in Russia myself two times, in Moscow and Kaliningrad Oblast.

Well, Lithuania has no nazi parties or any far right parties for that matter. Never a far right politician was in parliament. Same goes for anti-semitic and other such politicians. There were a few who tried to be lected, but no one was. As for supposedly "largest newspaper", it is actually a second largest tabloid, which also called many famous Lithuanian people gays for no reason in past (e.g. "famous singer Virgilijus Noreika is gay, because so said his wife in their divorce" - and whole page dedicated for this article), etc. It writes such things just to attract attention. This is exacly what was written in that editorial of that tabloid:
"The only two groups I can't write about are gays and Jews"
In Lithuania nazis are a very localised part of society. Not so for Russia. There is many nazi youth, especially in smaller towns. You abviosly know facts how anti-semitic messges were left which had bombs (and they exploded when people tried to take these message off). You know about all the anti-muslim nazi things also. And anti-Baltic (people like me). Foreigners are attacked just for being foreigners in smaller Russian towns.
As for Lithuanian president, I am not sure what you mean. Some old nazi (over 60 years old) with his group of probably ten people, said taht they supports president and were present while he said his speech. President condemned them next day.
Just by the way - in an international poll where people were asked about opinions on certain other nations/races/religions (e.g. Jews, muslims, blacks), Lithuania had the least racists of all European nations.

As for how I know Russian opinion, believe me, there are enough Russians in Lithuania and I know Russians elsewhere too. Of course, as I said, there are nazi youth and old communists - these groups wants Russia to be superpower again more than they wants it to be a rich country. I am not saying that these groups are a small minority either.

Well, could you please say what acts of Russia you DON'T support? All the things I write about Russia is supported be facts. I will admit that what I written about current political situation, however, maybe was not exacly correct as I just wanted to bring this thread back because Fradkov became new prime minister. However, I am always trying to write truth - remember, there are lots of Russians in Lithuania and I speak with some of them on internet too. Don't compare me to "just another person speaking bad about Russia" please.

Also, I will ask you why do you support (if you support) these Russian policies: attacks on Yukos (arrest of Lebedev and Khodorkovski), other "fighting" done by Putin against rich people who doesn't supports him. Also, the recent arrest of two Quatari sportsmen in supposed response of Quatari arrest of two Russian terrorists.

As now I understood completely, you really are Aviatsiya. Well, wellcome back.  Insane

[Edited 2004-03-05 22:59:26]
 
North County
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:34 am

We have a term in the US for someone who is so obsessed:

A wannabe.
 
Russophile
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:02 am

You abviosly know facts how anti-semitic messges were left which had bombs (and they exploded when people tried to take these message off).

True. But this is a result of a few numbskulls in Russia. It isn't official policy of the Russian government. Just like how it may not be official policy in Lithuania.

Well, could you please say what acts of Russia you DON'T support?

Human rights abuses in Chechnya -- whilst I fully support the Russian aim in Chechnya, due to past terrorist acts by Chechens, I do not support reported human rights abuses by the Russian army against innocent Chechen civilians. That would be my number one grievance on Russian policies. Although, I don't believe that these abuses are as a result of high level orders, but rather are being made on a local level by unit commanders in Chechnya -- I might be wrong with that, but that is my belief.

attacks on Yukos (arrest of Lebedev and Khodorkovski)

I support this 100% -- they are oligarchs -- for those who don't know the oligarchs is a select group of individuals who after the fall of the Soviet Union, and in the post-Soviet craziness, used their government connections (mainly thru Yeltsin) to buy up LARGE strategic state enterprises at rock-bottom prices -- it was corruption, pure and simple.

I also wouldn't have any problem if Roman Abramovich was also arrested -- here you have a protege of Berezovsky who bought up large chunks of Sibneft, Rusal and Aeroflot at ridiculous prices -- he also bought himself a governorship in Chukotka -- laundered some money there under the pretext of development -- but it didn't help the region which is now bankrupt -- the day-to-day runnings of the region is left to Sibneft executives -- he is very rarely seen in Anadyr -- he much rather prefers the ski and beach resorts of Europe.

The days of the oligarchs are coming to an end under Putin -- whether they have political connections is irrelevant -- well not totally irrelevant, because it is those political connections which allowed them to basically steal from the people of Russia.

And the Russian people at large support this policy of Putin.

other "fighting" done by Putin against rich people who doesn't supports him.

Cite an example and I will comment on it

Also, the recent arrest of two Quatari sportsmen in supposed response of Quatari arrest of two Russian terrorists.

Two Russian terrorists huh? GTFOOH. Why not present the full story. The facts are that Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, a Chechen politician/terrorist (you'd probably call him a freedom fighter), who has long had links to Al Qaeda (evidenced by the fact that Al Qaeda has been operating in Chechnya), had been living with immunity in Qatar for 5 years -- the Qataris ignored repeated requests for extradition by the Russians. I will also add that both the Interpol, the UN and US had placed Yandarbiyev on a list of known terrorists. In mid-February he was killed in a car bomb in Doha. After the bombing, the Qataris arrested 3 Russian nationals -- one of which had a diplomatic passport -- the other 2 were members of Russian special forces who are fighting the 'war against terrorism' -- the Russian holding the diplomatic passport should not have been arrested in the first place. Qatar has yet to produce evidence that the 2 Russians who are now being held in detention are the ones responsible for the bombing. In response Moscow detained 2 Qatari athletes (who are believed to be Belarus nationals) on suspicion of terrorist ties -- one of the Qataris had over US$7000 on his person which was not declared, which in itself can lead to detention. Both sides have presented scant evidence on their respective arrests -- what has occurred seems to be a tit-for-tat diplomatic move.

Do I support this? Well it is hard to say, because the true details on both cases are not yet known.

So Sonic, let me ask you a question.

Are there any Russian policies which you DO support? Or are you just another who is so blind for your hatred of Russia and Russians in general, that you do not see a single good thing about Russia?
 
Sonic
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 9:21 am

Russophile,
Although the racistic attacks in Russia currently are not supported by government, but the trend of neo-nazism is rising (look also to voting results - lots of radicals in Duma (e.g. "liberaldemocrats" - Zhirinovski's party), Zhirinovski himself getting reletively not low percentages in president elections (while in Lithuania no radical even candidated for presidential position. Ones who tried didn't got enough signatures). There are other radical political organisations too (e.g. Nationalbolsheviks) and many "skinhead" type of worse organised groups). Lithuanian interests are also getting attacked way more frequently than in the past (e.g. ambassador, embassy), although Lithuanian policy to Russia didn't changed and, unlike for example Latvian, was never since independence directed to Russia as an enemy. Also, Russian government oppresses minorities and their right to self determination (just like under USSR, this is degraded to such small things as national clothes or song festivals). You know the blocked Tatarstan constitution, you know the occupation of Chechnya. And this is, as polls says, very supported by people of Russia. I know several people who were attacked in Russia just because they are non-Russians too, for purely nationalistic reasons (not e.g. robbing). Also I know a person who was attacked by traffic policeman because he refused to pay bribe. This just shows the principles of Russian police and is a good way to start talking about Chechnya, since this is exacly what is happening there. E.g. soldiers requesting bribes from civilians for not to kill them or to kill them in more humane ways. Now, this is probably not directly an order from higher above, but it is still a problem of Russia and it's demoralized army (you know the increasing trend of refusing drafts by paying bribes, also of people running from the army due to abuse of higher officials). Things like that aren't happening in, for example, Palestine. In Palestine also journalists are allowed, not so for Chechnya. You say you do not support human rights abuses there, but you mentioned very many restrictions to that declaration. Also, to your claim that supposedly occupation of Chechnya is justifable because of 'terror acts', I have to ask you plain and simple: what started the first: occupation or 'terror acts'? Unfortunately, most of Russian people here are thinking the same way as you do. They have the imperial ambitions, which are mostly supported by nazi manner ("Federation must live" - this is very common pharse to support occupation of Chechnya which I hear of Russians. Like Russia would die otherwise). "Terror acts", especially ones in Chechen territory (not Moscow) against soldiers, are a mean of fighting. If a helicopter is shot down it's not a terror act, it's war. Russians are also shooting real bullets, you know. Now as for "terror acts" in Moscow - as you have said yourself and you know it Russian army kills and harms innocent Chechens too and in much larger numbers. Thus, it's probably not fair according to you to reply with innocent blood to innocent blood, but Chechens aren't any worse than Russians here. Remember, just like for human rights abuses and Russian government, Maskhadov too isn't directly controling all the operations in Moscow.
Now as for oligarchs - yes, I know who they are. But it is the fact that not all oligarchs who done their machinations are falling - just ones who are against Putin and has democratic views. As for other rich people I meant Berezovski, Gusinski, Abramovich, but you mentioned two of them anyway. In privatisation everybody could have won. It wasn't a fair game probably, but actually it couldn't have been one. Believe me, I know this - the same happened in Lithuania. Unfortunately, shares must have been somehow privatised after fall of communism, and there wasn't and isn't a better way. This was a failure of how everything was done, not fault of these people.
I called them "Russian terrorists" because I know you would call people "Chechen terrorists" if they would, for example, shoot a Russian general somewhere in e.g. USA. You actually didn't answered your question. Regardless of what you think about the person who was killed, do you support Russian actions overseas? Killing people just for political motivation or out of pure revenge? You know, Russia actually defends many people who were responsible for killing many Lithuanian civilians in Medininkai attack, 1991. Russia is not giving them up for Lithuania nor is trying them on itself. According to your logic, Lithuania would have a perfect right to just use special services and shoot them, without trial, anything? I doubt Russia would like it and I have no doubts you would be quick to attack such an action probably even in these forums. And other question: do you think that it's OK for Russia to act as terrorists and litterally take hostages two sportsmen, who has nothing to do with the event except having Qatari nationality? This suspection of terrorist ties is BS and I believe even you should recognise it, as it happened exacly "in response" of that incident in Qatar. If they really would be terrorists, they would be arrested way before that. Unfortunatelly, this is how Russia deals these days - after Lithuania deported Russian spy, who was caught with evidence, Russia "in response" "deported" "Lithuanian spy", who, as it turned out, was a low-life who even wasn't in Russia at a time. Later (maybe after a year) he became more famous after he was arrested for stealing credit cards. Now, would such person really spy for a country?
As for Russian actions I do support - you told only one you don't support and even that with certain reservations. Thus I will tell one too - I support Russian stance against Iraqi war.
 
Russophile
Topic Author
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RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:23 am

Let me start with your end.

Thus I will tell one too - I support Russian stance against Iraqi war.

The fact that this isn't a Russian action, but rather a policy which is widespread amongst the world community, and that it isn't a major Russian government initiative, makes me believe that you are simply just another hater of all things Russian. You can admit it if you like -- it doesn't bother me, but it will at least declare your hand. I think it is quite obvious in your presenting of half-truths.

I will attempt to reply to your incoherrent rant.

Also, Russian government oppresses minorities and their right to self determination (just like under USSR, this is degraded to such small things as national clothes or song festivals). You know the blocked Tatarstan constitution, you know the occupation of Chechnya. And this is, as polls says, very supported by people of Russia.

Your comments are an absolute fricking joke. The blocked Tatar constitution -- again, why don't you present the TRUTH. When the Soviet Union disintegrated, Tatarstan adopted a constitution which basically saw them declare independence. Moscow rejected this declaration (as did the rest of the world). Russia could not allow Tatarstan to break away from the Federation at that time, because of the upheaval which was occurring in the country, it would have not only destabilised Russia and Tatarstan and the entire region. In 1994, an agreement was reached between Russia and Tatarstan, which would see Tatarstan remaining a part of the Russian Federation, but which would leave the Tatar constitution largely intact, see the republic controlling its resources and foreign policy -- something which is unheard of in the rest of Russia. Whilst there was large public support in Tatarstan for independence in 1992, a poll some years ago showed public support has moved from independence to remaining an integral part of Russia -- over 80% of the Tatar public was in favour of retaining the status quo and were genuinely happy with the agreement between Tatarstan and Moscow. All of this was negotiated and implemented by peaceful means.

Chechnya on the other hand, chose the more violent route -- they not only declared independence, but they also attained exactly what Russia wanted to avoid in the Tatarstan situation -- that is the destabilisation not only of Chechnya and Russia, but also the region, particularly Dagestan -- where Chechens were actively destabilising the government in the republic. If the Chechens chose the peaceful route like the Tatars, then Chechnya would not have become a hotbed for Al Qaeda, bandits, kidnappings, murders, radical Islam, and eventually civil war.

The rest of that paragraph which you wrote is emotional rubbish and has nothing to do with government policy or the Tatarstan/Chechen situation, and frankly the situations you mention happen around the world.

Your comments on the oligarchs are misguided. The fact is Yeltsin allowed his close political and personal friends share in the spoils of strategic Russian resources -- comparing this to any privatisation in Lithuania is not accurate as we aren't talking small scale industry -- what Yeltsin did was took resources which belonged to the Russian people and gave them to his friends for next to nothing -- it would be akin to George Bush allowing a close friend to buy Exxon for a few dollars. The oligarchs aren't all for democracy -- but are all for corruption and dodgy business practices -- something which does need to be eliminated.

And again your comparing the killing of Yandarbiyev is not akin to shooting a Russian general, but more like the US killing Osama bin Laden after he has escaped justice for years and has continued to raise funds to for terrorist activities in Chechnya. Would you support the US doing this to bin Laden? Because it is EXACTLY like that. Whether the Russians did kill Yandarbiyev I don't know -- just like you don't know -- would I support the Russians doing this? I would say No! But I would understand why they did do it (if they did).

Do I support in general Russian foreign policy? I would say yes. Although in some instances with reservations.
 
Sonic
Posts: 1505
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:05 am

Russophile,
Your post itself is very full of emotions so do not accuse that my posts are, you didn't answered most of my questions anyway. Tatarstan constitution did not declared Tatarstani independence (I mean the recent constitution), so your mentioning of 80% being against independence is not related. It, however, had, had declared some things which Russians didn't liked and didn't agreed with (e.g. Latin script for Tatar language instead of Cyrillic one). Such thing, since anyway all signs in Tatarstan would be written in Russian also, actually would be of completely no harm to Russia except ambitions. Most of now independent Central Asian republics, with which Tatarstan is related ethnically (all nations are Turkic), after leaving USSR moved to Latin script.
Chechnya chose independence. Now, they are not responsible that Russia decided to fought the war (same as Lithuania is not responsible for January 11th attack by Russia). Many other states were released bloodlessly. If Chechens would have chosen peaceful route like tatars, they wouldn't have indpendence anyway. As there is certain proverb, "It is better to die standing than kneeling". All the bad things you mentioned are brought by Russians (indirectly) - same happened in Afghanistan after war with Russia. People of course becomes radical when they see war and discrimination everyday.
Actually, what is in Chechnya is WAR and you should understand it. People at both sides are soldiers, they are armed and fights each other. Thus killing Yandarbiyev is equal to killing Russian general (or at least Russian general, who abused human rights). Bin Laden is other thing. USA didn't attacked Afghanistan before September 11th. There was peace, Bin Laden attacked in peace-time. And I am not saying Russian government did this, just asked you a few questions would you support their actions. But well, you (probably) deny yourself: "would I support the Russians doing this? I would say No! But I would understand why they did do it". Do you mean that you would just understand the reason in the same way you e.g. understand reason why Bin Laden attacked America or why Hitler started WW2, or do you mean something more here?
As for privatisation, what other way to do it would have you suggested? Of course, all these major companies could have falled in foreign hands. But in my opinion, local people are better than foreign companies. Oligarchs can be pro-democracy - their political views has nothing to do with the ways they are doing business.
As for my support of Russia, you said one very reserved place where you do not support Russia. I told you the same, just vice-versa. Let's put it this way: I do not dislike Russia anymore than you are obsessed with it. It may be hard to understand for you as Australian (you are far away from all this), but my opinion is based on facts. You know past of my country and you know that in present Russia frequently spoils the relations too (e.g. Kaliningrad, NATO membership of Lithuania, stupid attempt to recognise Vilnius to Poland which, although wasn't done, still had some support in Duma). I hear news about nazis attacking Lithuanian embassy in Moscow and sesecrating the tricolor with black paint, also throwing eggs at ambassador. I know many Russian people on internet and many of them hates me for who I am (Lithuanian). And, of course, it's much easier for me to compare situation in Chechnya (just an example) to situation in my own country over a decade ago. I hear about Russians in Lithuania desecrating monuments for independence with Russian words "Long live USSSR, long live Lenin", etc. And I am asking myself why - since we did nothing bad for them. Now they in Lithuania enjoys the same rights as Lithuanians (unlike Latvia and Estonia), government declares priority of good relations with Russia. People in Lithuania too has nothing against Russians (in fact, polls shown that Russians are the minority most sympathised to), they speaks Russian when needed too (unlike some other parts of former USSR).
For me Russia is not just a fascinating culture far far away. Unfortunatelly, I had to taste it in quite different way.
But I do not consider myself Russian hater. If Russians would do some good policy, which I would support, I will not be against it.

[Edited 2004-03-06 03:09:47]
 
Guest

RE: Putin Dismisses Entire Government

Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:42 am

Sonic wrote:

"Putin certainly won't put Russia as superpower if he will continue current policy. Well, he might put it as a military superpower, but just as USSR example shown, a military superpower can't exist too long if not supported by economy."

Many of Putin's policies are questionable, but Russia's economy is now growing at a very healthy rate, with increased foreign investment, and an improving overall standard of living, so I don't see how his administration is bad for the economy.

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