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JeffM
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Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:52 pm

From a local radio show...

Step 1: Admitting that you're a liberal

This is the first step for every liberal on the way to recovery. It is important to understand that you're not "progressive", "moderate", or "enlightened". You're a liberal, and you need to be honest with yourself about that fact.

Step 2: Pledge to support your beliefs with facts

Realize that truth is more important than moral superiority and is the only way to come over to reality. You must research beyond propaganda from the Sierra Club, Hilllary Clinton, and CNN to understand things as they really exist in the world. You can no longer argue based on "feelings" or emotion. You will actually need to back up your arguments with real information. This is a difficult step, because it means you can't be lazy any more.

Step 3: Love America

This may be the most difficult step for those of you who are hippies and peaceniks. Admitting that the country you hate actually stands as a beacon to defend freedom throughout the world can make some of you physically ill. You might want to make a visit to a military cemetery to better understand that these men and women gave their lives so that you could spew hatred. Otherwise, you would currently be living in a police state that would never let you wear that nasty patchouli oil, let alone speak out against your government.

Step 4: Take a college level economics class

A Socialist is defined as someone who's never taken an economics class. Most Socialists have a hard time balancing their checkbooks, let alone explaining the simple concept of supply-and-demand. It's time to flush your complete ignorance of basic economics down the toilet and understand how the world actually functions. This concept will be very important for the next steps that involve communism, facts about corporations, and the inefficiencies of government.

Step 5: Say "no" to Communism and Socialism

While this concept is obvious to most of the free world, it is an important step in your recovery process. If you have difficulty with this step, spend a week living and working in Cuba.

Step 6: Corporations are not evil

If you're reading this article on-line or in an email, it's thanks to corporations. If you get some kind of paycheck, you can thank corporations. If you work for a nonprofit or the government, you still have to thank corporations. The nonprofit sector and the government wouldn't have any money to pay you without corporations. It is also important that you understand that making a profit doesn't equate to "greed" or exploitation. Capitalism has created the greatest society in our world's history. Even communist countries need corporations to survive, so enjoy a nice, hot cup of reality.

Step 7: The government is inefficient

If you are one of those liberals who believe the government should tax us more in order to take care of society, you need to pay special attention to this step. You need to realize that government bureaucracy will waste most of your tax dollars, while the private sector will put your money to much better use. Even most Democrat politicians understand this to some degree, which is why Hillary's socialist healthcare proposal was voted down by a majority of both Democrats and Republicans. Go to your local post office or call the IRS to ask a tax question if you need a reminder about government inefficiency.

Step 8: The earth is not your "mother", and she's not dying

The time has now come to stop your donations to Greenpeace, The Sierra Club, and every other EnviroNazi organization to which you belong. Face the reality that the earth, society and our environment are better off today than ever in recorded history and that they are continuing to improve. I realize that many of you tree huggers will have a very difficult time letting go of the Douglas Fir on this one. I would suggest reading The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn Lomborg. Mr. Lomborg is a former member of Greenpeace and is currently a statistics professor at a university in Denmark. He set out to prove the world was in bad shape and ended up surprising himself by proving the exact opposite.

Step 9: Stop smoking the wacky tobacco

Okay, some of you might need to enter another 12-step program to complete this step. Marijuana is distorting your sense of reality, and you need to stop using it. Besides, you'll save a fortune on snacks.

Step 10: Eat a hamburger

If God didn't intend for us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. You can put your sprouts and tofu on the hamburger, but get some meat into you. You'll look and feel better than you ever imagined. You can always remind yourself that Nazi propaganda hailed Adolf Hitler as a vegetarian to get you through this step.

Step 11: Stop re-writing political history

It's now time to admit that Bill Clinton is a lying-cheating-sexist-racist-rapist jackass, Hillary Clinton is one of the worst role models for women in this country, Al Gore really did lose the 2000 election by every vote tabulation you attempt, Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War and didn't create the homeless problem, John McCain is not a typical Republican, and Jimmy Carter is a nice man but has one of the worst presidential records of anyone in history.

Step 12: Be a missionary

Once you have completed the previous steps to overcoming liberalism, it's time for you to share this awakening with others who are not as fortunate. Go out amongst the liberal sheep and spread the good word of your freedom from the chains of ignorance that once bound you. Congratulations, and welcome to reality.

 
Guest

RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:23 pm

Overcoming Reactionary Conservatism of the Bush/Limbaugh variety: A 1-Step Program:

1.) Expand your horizons.

I know this isn't the PC thing to say, but it's true in so many ways, and besides, conservatives don't like political correctness anyway, so they'll forgive me this one.
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:28 pm

Wow well I have done a few of those steps namely:
1) Admitting I'm a liberal
2) Supporting my beliefs with facts
4) taking a college level Econ Class
7) OUR government is inefficient
9) I don' smoke... anything
10) I eat hamburgers
11) I have stopped rewriting History (never did)

well I'm over 50% and just as much a socialist as I was before.... sorry

dito to PHX-LJU

signed,
A Socialist content with his political beliefs...
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:33 pm

Who cares about PC?

Step 2: Pledge to support your beliefs with facts

Yeah, and stop watching FOX all the time.

Step 3: Love America

We do, we just think it could be better.

Step 8: The earth is not your "mother", and she's not dying

Granted not in our lifetime, but we are screwing over our future descendants.

Step 9: Stop smoking the wacky tobacco

That is the most biased statement I have heard. Get off of your "I don't do drugs" Cloud, because you are so High on youselves that You have overdosed. I don't smoke weed. Anybody who says that I'm just a stupid potsmoking liberal gets my class ring stamped on their forehead.

Step 11: Stop re-writing political history

That goes for you too.

If this is the late night guy on KOA/KHOW, then I know who you are talking about. He is a moron, with absolutely nothing to do but attack other people. If you see him as a valid source of information, then maybe you should complete the 12-step program called Elementary Education.

DLKAPA
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
BN747
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:47 pm

Step 1: Admitting that you're a liberal
Progressive to be exact!

Step 2: Pledge to support your beliefs with facts
Only if you guys stop twisting them!

Step 3: Love America
We love it more than you guys do..that's why we want it better!

Step 4: Take a college level economics class
What for? Already a successful biz owner

Step 5: Say "no" to Communism and Socialism
Only a idiot would say yes to them! Socialism to a degree is exceptable or else you guys wouldn't have an audience.

Step 6: Corporations are not evil
Some are..some aren't

Step 7: The government is inefficient
That's news??? NEXT!

Step 8: The earth is not your "mother", and she's not dying
Yes it is and yours too! And yes she is..with or without our 'help', the earth is jsut a planet, it's gonna die anyway, but corporate toxic waste doesn't contribute to our (human) well-being! So if you like living (emphasis on living), do something about it!

Step 9: Stop smoking the wacky tobacco
Stop pill popping!

Step 10: Eat a hamburger
Make mine a double cheeseburger! Hold the onions!

Step 11: Stop re-writing political history
Okay, Reagan was a douche!

Step 12: Be a missionary
If you got 'missionary' a little more often (mix it up, try doggie style once in a while-- even weekly will do), you wouldn't be such a tight ass and scared that someone is out trying take all your sense of 'entitlements' away!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
N737MC
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:48 pm

Jeff, you have way too much time on your hands.....  Big thumbs up

Proud Liberal and will stay that way...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Aaron Mandolesi
Denver, Colorado
 
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:40 pm

The IQ of the blind neo conservatives is reaching new hights again!  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

Personally I wouldn't even dear to post this crap...

@BN747: couldn't have said this better: "We love it more than you guys do..that's why we want it better!

 Big thumbs up
 
Qb001
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:47 pm

Throughout history, conservatives have always been wrong. If humanity had always been conservative, we'd still be believing that the Earth is flat and that the Sun turns around it. That was the conservative stand of a few centuries ago...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
jcs17
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:59 pm

LOL, Jeff...great!  Big thumbs up The funniest thing to do in a college economics class is to look around when the professor is discussing the failings of the command economies of the 20th century and see all the potheads and rabid liberals shake their head.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:16 pm

I'm actually amazed this is allowed in the US...

We here have a law that prohibits to take a stance towards political beliefs. If this would be broadcasted on our radio/tv, I'm sure that the one broadcasting this would be sued.

@jcs: damn you are frustrated...
 
cfalk
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:16 pm

Throughout history, conservatives have always been wrong.

Now THAT is an overgeneralization if there ever was one.

What is a Conservative? What is a Liberal? Those are RELATIVE terms.

GW Bush is not a complete conservative. He actually has some liberal tendencies. He pushed for increasing benefits to Medicare recipients, for example.

John Kerry is not a complete liberal either. I have not heard him say that he wants to eliminate private property and lead the world to an egalitarian nirvana.

Linguistically, a conservative wants everything to stay right where it is, and with traditional structures. This leads to the earth-is-flat theory, and I have not heard many of those. A liberal is open to everything - every new development and change is good. But was the invention of VX nerve gas a good thing? How about Rap music - about as nauseous as VX?

You want to meet true conservatives? Head over to Pennsylvania and check out the Amish.

"liberals" and "conservatives" in the U.S. - at least the Democratic and Republican parties - are actually very close together on the liberal/conservative ladder, and both of them are very close to the center. That is a good side-effect of a two-party system: No radicalism (left or right) gets anywhere near the halls of power, because you must be pretty damned close to the mainstream in order to get elected.

But of course since the range of debate is limited to the small (maybe the middle 10%) part of the conservative/liberal scale, we tend to exaggerate the difference to make it look like night vs. day.

There are things that call for liberalism and conservatism. It is the mix of the two that have allowed nations to develop. We have capitalism (itself a liberal concept championed by conservatives and resented/distrusted by "liberals") with a social safety net (pushed for by liberals). Free trade is a very liberal concept promoted by conservatives more than liberals. I don't hear anyone calling for the reimposition of a royal family and the feudal system.

Conservative and liberal are just labels applied by the press so that they can easily segregate the population.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
texan
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:21 pm

Another one of the funniest things to do in college is to look around when the professor is describing the failed trickle-down economics theory to the class and to hear the collective hearts of the fascists and right wing idealogues sputtering and muttering amongst themselves, completely astounded that anybody could possibly question the sacrosanct word of their hero, Ronald Reagan (even though George Bush Sr. called Reagan's economic policy moronic). It is even better if the professor describes how, in theory, the trickle down theory, like communism, is a positive for the people. However, also like communism, according to the professor, it is doomed to complete and utter failure.
And I freely admit that I disagree with a majority of Clinton's actions and decisions as well.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
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JeffM
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:29 pm

Aaron, your Canadian... you can be a liberal, it's expected.  Big grin

Jeff
 
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:31 pm

Cfalk, that's one excellent posting! Exactly my thoughts...

But of course since the range of debate is limited to the small (maybe the middle 10%) part of the conservative/liberal scale, we tend to exaggerate the difference to make it look like night vs. day.

Out of curiosity: are you claiming that the active political debators over here are or extreme liberal, or extreme conservative?

Honnestly, I'm wondering about this already for quite some time. It sounds very unlikely to me that the extreme differences between liberals and conservatives (like JCS and Jeff like to claim above) actually exist. I've always seen people like Superfly on the extreme liberal, and people like Jeff/JCS/B753/L1011/... on the extreme conservative scale.

Personally, I have always been in favour of a moderate Republican party, and if I may believe your 10% figure, it's nice to see that 90% of the Americans take a moderate stance (with the 10% being extremists like mentioned above).

Frederic
 
david b.
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:32 pm

1.) Expand your horizons.


This is not possible for neo-cons.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
SlamClick
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:33 pm

And then there are the rest of us out here who understand that when your society suffers from bipolar disorder, those at both ends of the pendulum swing are mentally ill. Worse, the entire political structure feeds this syndrome and profits from this tragedy.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
texan
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:35 pm

Even though I'm a liberal, I thought the list was kinda funny Smile It's good to have stuff like this come out every once in a while!

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:37 pm

And then there are the rest of us out here who understand that when your society suffers from bipolar disorder, those at both ends of the pendulum swing are mentally ill. Worse, the entire political structure feeds this syndrome and profits from this tragedy.

Actually, this was exactly what Karl Marx wanted. A polarisation between the 2 extremes, leading into a revolution with in the end communism as result.

You better watch out, fellow Americans! Big grin
 
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JeffM
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:39 pm

Fred,

Watch out.... it is called humor..... try it!

Do they have any in Belgium? Using you as an example...I'd say not.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:42 pm

Sabena 690,

We here have a law that prohibits to take a stance towards political beliefs.

That's news to me... We have laws against discrimination, but against taking a stance towards political beliefs? Allow me to doubt that...
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:45 pm

Scorpio: maybe no law, but aren't our radio/tv stations supposed to be objectif in what they report?

I'm sure that when the VRT would broadcast something like that, they would get serious troubles.

It's a risk a quality journalist would never take I think...
 
Scorpio
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:52 pm

Now that's something entirely different from haveing laws against taking a political stance.... And this 'objectivity' is something that is pretty much a rule around the world, at least for respectable journalists. If this was posted in an 'entertainment' program, there would be no problem. I also don't think they'd put this on a news broadcast in the US either, so I think as far as that is concerned, there's hardly any difference between the US and Belgium...
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:56 pm

Still I have never seen something like that in an entertainment program of the VRT/Canvas, even not on VTM (although I have to admit that I almost never watch VTM, too much sensation).
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:58 pm

@Jeff, sure they have humour in Belgium!

And actually I have to admit I read over the 'from a local radio show' line...

So my stance was maybe a bit too hard indeed...  Big grin
 
cfalk
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:16 am

Scorpio: maybe no law, but aren't our radio/tv stations supposed to be objectif in what they report?

Interesting you mention this. I heard something on France Info last night that I thought was interesting, and is a good example of the subtle bias that exists in the media.

France Info is the state-subsidized news radio network, and is supposedly objective.

The headline I heard was about the Haitian crisis. It spoke of how the place was heading into civil war, and and that in the past two days, 500 haitians attempted to reach Florida. The last sentance of the report, I can remember pretty exactly: "Les bateaux des refugies ont ete intercepte par les garde-cotes Americains et le refugies refoules vers Haiti, sur les ordres du President George W Bush" (sorry for no accents - I don't have them on this keyboard).

Translated, that sentance says, "The boats of the refugees were intercepted by the U.S. Coast Guard and the refugees thrown back (refoule is a fairly strong word. refouler: Verbe transitif (a) to drive back, force back; (fig) to hold back, repress) to Haiti, by order of GW Bush."

So first, the language used indicates a sense of outrage, that these poor refugees were intercepted and thrown back (not returned safely, after having gotten a meal and a doctor's visit, but just tossed out) into Haiti.

Secondly, the last phrase implies that somebody asked Bush what to do about all these refugees, and he gave the order to throw them back where they came from. Never mind that this treatment of refugees who have not yet reached American shores has been standard procedure (and I think even the law), for the past couple of decades as I remember. Bush did not need to give any such order. I doubt he even heard of the event until after they were back in Haiti.

In short, this simple phrase, posing as objective news on a supposedly respectable and objective news network, is actually a subtle propaganda story designed to egg on the idea in listeners' heads that Bush is a ruthless bastard who doesn't give a damn about refugees fleeing from a civil war, and who gives orders for them to be treated inhumanely.

This kind of reporting is extremely common in Europe, I find.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:23 am

@Charles: it depends on how you interprete it.

Certainly the Brits, but also the French are known for putting quite some 'nuances' in their sentences.

We should have to ask a native French speaker what the reporter actually meant.
 
Guest

RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:47 am

Speaking of liberalism, conservative-leaning commentator Andrew Sullivan wrote this about Sean Hannity's new book which, in a manner typical of all too many closed-minded reactionaries, equates liberalism with terrorism and evil:

"Hannity isn't worthy to speak the word "liberalism," a long and complicated and deeply Western political tradition that is the only reason he can actually publish a book like this and face only criticism."

So true!

BTW, if anyone is interested in what the looney right of America thinks, check out some comments praising Hannity's book on amazon.com and calling liberalism evil and anti-American. They manage to be scary and hilarious at the same time! And they're certainly as warped as anything the extreme far-left Marxist groups in Europe come up with.
 
Guest

RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:58 am

Cfalk wrote:

"John Kerry is not a complete liberal either. I have not heard him say that he wants to eliminate private property and lead the world to an egalitarian nirvana."

Are you sure you aren't confusing liberalism with Marxism, two concepts that couldn't have less in common?
 
Qb001
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:11 am

The earth-is-flat was only a short-cut. If I'd had the time to expose everything the conservatives have opposed to in the past, the list would last forever.

But for the fun of it, here are a few others I came up with. Conservatives have opposed to:
- Equality between men and women;
- Banning slavery;
- Abolishing monarchies;
- Decolonization;
- Democracy;
- Unions;
- 8 hours a day workdays;
- Abolishing barbaric death penalty;
- The principles of Habeas Corpus and a free trial;
- Safety measures in cars;
- Protecting the environment;
- Education for all;
- Medicare for all;
- etc.

And this is the SHORT list. If I had the time, I could probably come up with many many more examples.

Of course, the very weak line of defense conservatives usually come up with is to accuse us of communism. We'll see how long it takes before someone comes here and throw than insanity.

The world we live in is not perfect, but it does progress overall in the good direction, because common sense always wins over conservatism.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
SSTjumbo
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 2:42 am

- Banning slavery;


Actually, the GOP under Abraham Lincoln fought to ban slavery and won, unless you're NOT referring to the GOP. If not, the definition of conservatism has greatly changed over time. Pinning modern conservatives with some of the points like these and a flat earth is like calling modern Jews "Christ-killers". Just a couple of thoughts.



SSTjumbo, a moderate conservative (yes, they do exist)
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
Qb001
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:10 am

the definition of conservatism has greatly changed over time

Those who opposed the banning of slavery were the conservatives of their time, of course. But they were conservatives nonetheless.

Conservatism means you want to conserve, maintain, things the way they are, because you don't realize that sometimes, some things have to evolve.

Which conservative here can guarantee, beyond any shadow of the doubt, that they would have supported abolishing slavery? Or would have accepted democracy? You can't. And even I can't offer that guarantee. But I can safely extrapolate my beliefs that I would have accepted these measures on the fact that I am, by and large, in favor of social progress.

200 years from now, people will look at our time a have a good laugh about those who now oppose to, say, the Kyoto protocol. The same way we look back and laugh at the conservatives who once, say, promoted alcohol prohibition...

No matter what the question is, conservatism is NEVER the answer.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:21 am

No matter what the question is, conservatism is NEVER the answer.

I can't agree on that. You can't compare the conservatism of 100 years ago, with the conservatism we have now.

Conservatism in several social issues is not only recommended, it's necessary. If we would follow the progressives only, gay married couples would be able to adopt children (I'm against that), euthanasie would be "normal" and you can continue like this.

I can only support the multiple views we have about those issues, to avoid too extreme decisions.

Personally I'm in favour of a moderate conservative approach.

Of course, with Bush and the neocons on this forum, several people are getting a wrong view about what conservatism really is...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:29 am

ILOVEA340,
despite the rather ridiculous screenname (upon which I shall comment no further)... I'm quite and sincerely interested as to why you choose to be a Socialist in America. I'd be grateful if you'd expand on this a little further: feel free to do so via email if you'd be more comfortable explaining it that way.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Qb001
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:33 am

If we would follow the progressives only, gay married couples would be able to adopt children (I'm against that), euthanasie would be "normal"

You want to bet these will be considered "normal" 50 years from now?

It makes me laugh when I read such things as:
You can't compare the conservatism of 100 years ago, with the conservatism we have now.

Of course, conservatism does not apply to the same issues. But there is not much differences between the conservatism of 100 years ago, with the conservatism we have now. It's just that today's conservatives have come to accept their conservative ancestors were wrong. They just don't realize they are equally wrong now.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
jcs17
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:40 am

But for the fun of it, here are a few others I came up with. Conservatives have opposed to:
- Banning slavery;


Banning slavery, check your US history book again, genius.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
BMAbound
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:52 am

Is Sweden the only country with a liberal right-wing party??

Seems like the rest of the world connects liberalism with pot-smoking long-haired nuclear-opposing hippies!  Big thumbs up

Being liberal and right-wing oriented is possible, so the whole discussion is a little "off"

No offence guys!  Big grin

johan
Altitude is Insurance - Get Insured
 
zak
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:00 am

"
Seems like the rest of the world connects liberalism with pot-smoking long-haired nuclear-opposing hippies! "

actually that is a very u.s. american treat.
in most other countries liberals are what americans refer to as libertatians(spelling?!?), i.e. your liberal "right wing" for free markets etc.
10=2
 
Qb001
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:04 am

Banning slavery, check your US history book again, genius.

Thank you for calling me a genius. But I'm too modest to brag about it. Unless it was meant in an ironic fashion. In that case, your post is only worthy of being deleted.

Slavery was not limited to the USA. If you check your Canadian history book again, you'll learn that slavery existed here too. And it existed pretty much everywhere in the world as well. BTW, do you know slavery was abolished in Russia a few years before it was abolished in the USA? Those damn communists...

Now, that being said, how would you call those who opposed abolishing slavery? I say they were the conservatives of their time. Today, their ideological descendants oppose things such as healthcare for everyone, equal right for women, or allowing gay marriages...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:36 am

why stop at health care for everyone? Let's make it housing, cars, boats, jet skiis, big screen tv, SUV's (or little electric cars..), etc. etc.

If you can afford it, buy it. If you can't, get a better job, if you have a good job and can't afford it, don't vote for Kerry, he wants even more of your money.  Big grin
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:05 am

If you can afford it, buy it. If you can't, get a better job, if you have a good job and can't afford it, don't vote for Kerry, he wants even more of your money.

Bravo!

...might wanna add "cease pining for the financial destruction/degradation of those who do/can/have"
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:41 am

Being liberal and right-wing oriented is possible, so the whole discussion is a little "off"

The leading political party in Belgium is also right-wing and liberal (in the meaning of a free market, a free economie, no government-involvement etc).

@JeffM: there ARE minority groups out there who CAN't get a better job due to medical reasons/... If you have something against the fact that those people NEED (financial) support, you are quite egocentric, don't you find?

That's a democratical aspect I miss in a lot of neocons like you...

The difference between rich and poor people is becoming too big in the US... And no, the poor people are not always responsable for the fact they are poor.
 
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:55 am

JeffM wrote:

"why stop at health care for everyone? Let's make it housing, cars, boats, jet skiis, big screen tv, SUV's (or little electric cars..), etc. etc."

The reason is simple: People can live without cars, boats, and big screen TVs, but not without healthcare (at least when they get sick).
 
david b.
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:58 am

PHX-LJU, the right wingers cannot seem to understand that. See they only want medical care for the middle-class and rich. The "undesirable" can drop dead for all they care.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
North County
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:28 am

Russia - did have slavery after the US did away with it in 1865:

From 1917 until the late 1980's.

It was called collective farms - work prisons - and it covered parts of the Eastern Block as well....

[Edited 2004-02-27 22:31:10]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:43 am

"It was called collective farms- work prisons- parts of the Eastern Block"

Bull sh*t!

Essentialy the LPGS, as they were called in East Germany are industrial facilities with big fields and thousands of cattle compared to the small family farms abundand in Europe. You were not forced to work in one and could get a job somewhre else if you wanted to. The farmers owned the land, but the land was worked together using machines. The farmers received a fixed salary as agricultural workers. The only thing is that unsder the Soviet system they were forced to join the system, but they were still nominal owners. The only disowning was done in East Germany after the war, when Nazis and aristocrat landowners, who owned traditionaly huge areas of land, including villages were disowned. Most of the agrarian land in Germany east of the river Elbe used to be owned by a few hundred aristocrat families, with the people in the villages working as farm labourers for them. After the unification many LPG´s became limited companies, but stayed together, as it was found that they are quite competitve in the capitalist market with their industrialised methods, compared to family farms with a few acres and cows.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Stratofish
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:51 am

"cease pining for the financial destruction/degradation of those who do/can/have"

The most sick and disgusting statement that`s been on here for a long time.
Those who do/can/have only can/have because of luck which is no legitimate reason for any of this. Working hard never got you far, luck was/is always needed, that's why I call for a 100% tax on all wealthy above a fixed income (e.g. average net income plus 15%), it's only fair/right/proper.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Guest

RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:03 am

I'm sorry, what was the question? I was watching Fox News. I'll probably even watch some NASCAR this weekend.

Seriously though, I tend to agree with Cfalk. Our conservatives here really aren't conservative, and our liberals really aren't that liberal.

College-level economics never hurt anyone, though.

'Speed


And now for some Accenture Match Play...
 
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JeffM
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:20 am

..Working hard never got you far, luck was/is always needed, that's why I call for a 100% tax on all wealthy above a fixed income (e.g. average net income plus 15%), it's only fair/right/proper.

typical response from someone in your position. you must be fucking stoned in my opinion....
 
texan
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:46 am

Amen to NASCAR, not a big fan of Fox News, 100% tax on anybody is a bad idea but a progressive tax is not inherently unfair, but none of this has anything to do with the fact that the original post was still funny. Like blanket statements about conservatives it is wrong, but it is still funny. How bout no more personal attacks on this thing since, even though JeffM is conservative and out to push the liberals' buttons (obviously worked with some but you'll have to try harder with me Smile), you gotta have a sense of humor about this stuff. In another instance, Rush Limbaugh's program actually did something funny once! They had a great take off of Garth Brooks' "I've Got Friends in Low Places." It was about Al Gore and went something like "I've got friends in Asian places/where the Red Chinese try to hide the traces of the cash they gave/And it's ok/I wasn't raising funds for election races/They just gave me a sack and I said, "Oh gracious!"/Oh, I've got friends in Asian places!"
Obviously it is very anti-Democratic (and Al Gore definitely is not an extreme liberal), and being about as liberal and populist as Jim Hightower and Molly Ivins (if you know anything about US political humor, you know who they are), in theory I should act outraged. However, you have to be able to laugh at yourself now and then! So everybody lighten up some and remember that it is not attacking us personally and that there are plenty of satires of conservatives out there too!
Now in the words of a famous TV show personality here, "Until next time, take care of yourself...and others."

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Stratofish
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RE: Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program

Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:13 am

"...none of this has anything to do with the fact that the original post was still funny."
Agreed.  Laugh out loud

So...
1. I admit it
2. don't believe facts you haven't altered yourself
3. been there many times, met tons of great people, yet the US gov is ehm...let's say "bad" IMHO
4. taken more than one and passed them
5. learn from errors by practizing
6. - 8. you don't want me to comment here, do you?
9. some drugs enhance the willingness to submit to agression
10. I don't believe in cannibalism  Acting devilish
11. ok, so Cli(n)ton stole the presidency from Bush sen and Dole...

I do hope Jeff will enlighten me on what "position" I am in, though.  Insane
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way

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