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The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:38 pm

Today,the 10th of Muharram,the first month of the moony year,we,Muslims,celebrate the day of "Achoura" which is the day God saved Mose,her brother Aaron,and their faithful followers among the descendants of Israel,from the Pharao and his "cabinet".These latters sunk in the sea for their blind disbelief of God.

When the Prophet Mohammed went to Medina,he found that the Jews fast this day as a thank for God for the bounty of saving them miraculously and gave them the chance to be the first to have been sent the divine book,the Torah in their case.The Prophet Mohammed decided to fast too,for love and glorification to his "brother" Mose,and today Muslims still celebrate this event,and i think the Jews too,with the sole difference that we may fast the day before and the day after,9 and 11 Muharram,just to be different from the Jews.

What do you think ? Isn't this approach between religions a sign of continuity ?

If Muslims believe strongly in Mose,Jesus,and the others,and take a lot of principles and examples from the instructions they were given,why you don't react the same towards Islam ?

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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:46 pm

Because it is the continuity: Islam was after Judaism and Christianity and it includes stories of both these religions. In the same way Christianity, since it appeared after Judaism (on the same branch), has certain Judaistic elements (old testament). Judaism, on the other hand, has absolutely no Christian or Islamic elements (same as Christianity has no Islamic elements), because it was the first.
While Bahaism, the fourth monoteistic religion on this branch (although some calls it sect), has elements of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, because it came after these all religions.

By the way Ts-ior, expect that some racists on these forums will turn this thread to a flamefest...
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:49 pm

Ts-ior, your word in God's ear, as we say in German (have no idea if this is comprehensible in English, it means "nice idea, fully comply but looks rather far from reality").

Unfortunately religious theory and the way humans live by the word of their own respective God are 2 different things. I am far from being a religious guy but I do know quotes from many "Holy Books" to know that there are lots of instructions to love other humans no matter what their belief reality, preachers of all confessions seem to have the hots for the hard parts, to promise heathens, non-believers, members of other religions hellfire and neverending torture is much more effective than just telling their community "Love thy neighbour".

btw: HER brother????????? Is there some early transgenderism...?  Big grin

btw2: No sorry, but concerning that WC 2010, we have a clear deal with South Africa! Big grin
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:17 pm

I compare Judaism,Christianism,and Islam to Windows 95,98,2000...

We the Muslims got the latest,the most innovative,the clearest,and the cleanest version of divine religions.The others are still using their primitive methods.Why don't you upgrade yourself ?'s better for you to have the WC 2010 in Tunisia,think of the distance...we are closer...too much closer !!!

Mose is the brother of Prophet Mohammed in the message of God.They were attributed almost the same message to spread.
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:24 pm

Ts-ior, good comparison... My computer still runs on Win 98 because Win 2000 wouldn't run my DOS programs  Smile

Well, jokes aside, you may think you have the "clearest version", but we (as well as Jews) thinks that later "updates" aren't from God. We think that Muhamad was not a messiah, Jews thinks that both Jesus and Muhamad weren't prophets.
BTW, if you really believe in this "clearest version" thing, than Bahaism should be like Windows XP, since it was after Islam and included some new theories. You should convert to Bahaism then.

Of course, when discussing religion, unlike other discutions, you can't reach ultimate truth. You can only make enemies. Nobody is going to change his/her religious views because some person says they are wrong...
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:43 pm

Ts-ior, do you know the British, Italian, German fans? You are way TOO CLOSE!!  Big grin Big grin

Ok, jokes aside, I stick to my statement above, it's the people that count in any religion, not what some preacher, guru, imam etc. believe. IMHO it is close to blasphemy when someone believes to have the right to tell me God's will, implicitly telling me that he knows the truth, I don't. Well, if that is the case then I don't quite see the point in any form of belief.

Unfortunately for Islam, the worldly leaders of this religion have given Islam a bad name over the last 20-25 years, many of them preaching death, destruction, war, oppression etc. I do believe that most Muslims all over the world basically do want the same things as I do, live peaceful and prosper and generally have the freedom to do what I want to do as long as I don't start cutting the freedom of another one. Unfortunately this is what we call the silent majority, those I mentioned above make themselves heard and are considered the "real" face of Islam.
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:49 am


You never cease to amaze me, my friend. I love your post and the replies so far have been quite mature... There is hope yet !

My perspective has been expressed quite well by Sonic:

you may think you have the "clearest version", but we (as well as Jews) thinks that later "updates" aren't from God. We think that Muhamad was not a messiah, Jews thinks that both Jesus and Muhamad weren't prophets.

As a Christian I believe Jesus is the Son of God.

Most importantly, I believe that God calls all of us into a relationship with Him. What we believe, then, becomes framework of that relationship and how we conduct ourselves becomes the "fruit" of that relationship.

People should NEVER be in the business of throwing rocks at each other.

God bless, Ts-ior (nice plane, btw - I love 737s),

- Jeff
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:02 am

In my opinion and this is taken from what Muslim teaching I can remember right off hand. I believe that it is taught that Jesus was just a good man? However how can a total liar be a good man. He claimed to be the son of God if you believe that to be a lie how can you say he was a good man? It is an interesting paradox.

My personal belief is that he was the son of God that he fulfilled the prophecies in the Torah about the Messiah and that he was the Messiah. Just my humble opinion.

If I remembered my Islamic teaching wrongly please forgive me.

In Christ
Garen B.
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:22 am

Jesus also says that "no one comes to the Father but through Me." That also makes it impossible for me to share non-Christian views of God.

But we as Christians are told in the Bible to be wise but gentle in the sharing of our faith with others.

God bless,

- Jeff
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:30 am

But we as Christians are told in the Bible to be wise but gentle in the sharing of our faith with others

ie. you're told by a human in the Bible to be patronising to everyone else?
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:44 am

ie. you're told by a human in the Bible to be patronising to everyone else?

Last I checked - there are no humans in my Bible... just pages.

Lunch is over so, God bless,

- Jeff
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:21 am

Le pére Noel n'existe pas !!! Do you know this French "proverb" meaning that father,your father,Christmas had never existed ? If it's not something new for you,i want you then to read what's following because i have a surprise for you...are you ready ? O.K. come on....JESUS HAS NEVER BEEN THE SON OF GOD...take it as it is...

A question to the Jews : You know that Jesus had never been the son of God and although that,and contrary to the Muslims,you make no difference to that and you don't try to convince the Christians and get them erase their wrong views...what's your interest in that ?
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:36 am

Judaism does not actively seek converts, so for the most part we do not actively go out and discourage other's religious beliefs. Plus there is also the firm idea that the righteous of all nations have a place in the World to Come, different faiths are ultimately of no consequence. Because of this we try to be respectful and not go out and attempt to educate others of "wrong" views, but we don't mind sharing and educating on our ideas if they ask.
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:55 am

Very good views you have there Ahmed Fathallah!
But again I don't think there are many in my part of the who denounce Islam...

There are some core values and political oppinions that simply show a difference between some Christians, Jews And Muslims...

That is the sad truth, people here in Denmark for example they find the head scarf to be degrading towards women, because the Danish women have fought long and hard for rights to vote equal pay and so forth, but many simply does not see that many Muslim girls want to cary the head scarf and does not find it discriminating...Again different values that simply are confronting each other...

Sad thing, but I hope one day that we can start to see how much all religion really resembles each other, and how much there is to learn from this connection!

"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:14 am

Actually mormonism came after the Koran so using your logic you should be upgrading your windows 2000  Insane

Anyway Islam doesn't recognize that Jesus was the son of God and it was written centuries after the crucifiction so no your comparison is wrong. Islam is NOT a continuation of Christianity and we don't recognize the Koran as the word of God. As for your usual arrogant rhetoric, it just takes your credibility away.
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel.

Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:43 am

What if.....Moses wasn't real after all?

Doubting the Story of Exodus
Many scholars have quietly concluded that the epic of Moses never happened, and even Jewish clerics are raising questions. Others think it combines myth, cultural memories and kernels of truth.

By TERESA WATANABE, Times Religion Writer

It's one of the greatest stories ever told: A baby is found in a basket adrift in the Egyptian Nile and is adopted into the pharaoh's household. He grows up as Moses, rediscovers his roots and leads his enslaved Israelite brethren to freedom after God sends down 10 plagues against Egypt and parts the Red Sea to allow them to escape. They wander for 40 years in the wilderness and, under the leadership of Joshua, conquer the land of Canaan to enter their promised land.
For centuries, the biblical account of the Exodus has been revered as the founding story of the Jewish people, sacred scripture for three world religions and a universal symbol of freedom that has inspired liberation movements around the globe. But did the Exodus ever actually occur?
On Passover last Sunday, Rabbi David Wolpe raised that provocative question before 2,200 faithful at Sinai Temple in Westwood. He minced no words. "The truth is that virtually every modern archeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all," Wolpe told his congregants.Wolpe's startling sermon may have seemed blasphemy to some. In fact, however, the rabbi was merely telling his flock what scholars have known for more than a decade. Slowly and often outside wide public purview, archeologists are radically reshaping modern understanding of the Bible. It was time for his people to know about it, Wolpe decided. After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership. To the contrary, the prevailing view is that most of Joshua's fabled military campaigns never occurred--archeologists have uncovered ash layers and other signs of destruction at the relevant time at only one of the many battlegrounds mentioned in the Bible.
Today, the prevailing theory is that Israel probably emerged peacefully out of Canaan--modern-day Lebanon, southern Syria, Jordan and the West Bank of Israel—whose people are portrayed in the Bible as wicked idolators. Under this theory, the Canaanites who took on a new identity as Israelites were perhaps joined or led by a small group of Semites from Egypt--explaining a possible source of the Exodus story, scholars say. As they expanded their settlement, they may have begun to clash with neighbors, perhaps providing the historical nuggets for the conflicts recorded in Joshua and Judges.
"Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we've broken the news very gently," said William Dever, a professor of Near Eastern archeology and
anthropology at the University of Arizona and one of America's preeminent archeologists. Dever's view is emblematic of a fundamental shift in archeology. Three decades ago as a Christian seminary student, he wrote a paper defending the Exodus and got an A, but "no one would do that today," he says. The old emphasis on trying to prove the Bible--often in excavations by amateur archeologists funded by religious groups--has given way to more objective professionals aiming to piece together the reality of ancient lifestyles. But the modern archeological consensus over the Exodus is just beginning to reach the public. In 1999, an Israeli archeologist, Ze'ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University, set off a furor in Israel by writing in a popular magazine that stories of the patriarchs were myths and that neither the Exodus nor Joshua's conquests ever occurred. In the hottest controversy today, Herzog also argued that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, described as grand and glorious in the Bible, was at best a small tribal kingdom.
In a new book this year, "The Bible Unearthed," Israeli archeologist Israel Finklestein of Tel Aviv University and archeological journalist Neil Asher Silberman raised similar doubts and offered a new theory about the roots of the Exodus story. The authors argue that the story was written during the time of King Josia of Judah in the 7th century BC--600 years after the Exodus. Supposedly occurred in 1250 BC--as a political manifesto to unite Israelites against the rival Egyptian empire as both states sought to expand their territory. Dever argued that the Exodus story was produced for theological reasons: to give an origin and history to a people and distinguish them from others by claiming a divine destiny.
Some scholars, of course, still maintain that the Exodus story is basically factual.
Bryant Wood, director of the Associates for Biblical Research in Maryland, argued that the evidence falls into place if the story is dated back to 1450 BC. He said that indications of destruction around that time at Hazor, Jericho and a site he is excavating that he believes is the biblical city of Ai support accounts of Joshua's conquests. He also cited the documented presence of "Asiatic" slaves in Egypt who could have been Israelites, and said they would not have left evidence of their wanderings because they were nomads with no material culture. But Wood said he can't get his research published in serious archeological journals. "There's a definite anti-Bible bias," Wood said. The revisionist view, however, is not necessarily publicly popular.Herzog, Finklestein and others have been attacked for everything from faulty logic to pro-Palestinian political agendas that undermine Israel's land claims. Dever, a former Protestant minister who converted to Judaism 12 years ago, say she gets "hissed and booed" when he speaks about the lack of evidence for the Exodus, and regularly receives letters and calls offering prayers or telling him he's headed for hell.
At Sinai Temple, Sunday's sermon--and a follow-up discussion at Monday's service- -provoked tremendous, and varied, response. Many praised Wolpe for his courage and vision. "It was the best sermon possible, because it is preparing the young generation to understand all the truth about religion," said Eddia Mirharooni, a Beverly Hills fashion designer. A few said they were hurt--"I didn't want to hear this," one woman said--or even a bit angry. Others said the sermon did nothing to shake their faith that the Exodus story is true. "Science can always be proven wrong," said Kalanit Benji, a UCLA undergraduate in psychobiology. Added Aman Massi, a 60-year-old Los Angeles businessman: "For sure it was true, 100%. If it were not true, how could we follow it for 3,300 years?" But most congregants, along with secular Jews and several rabbis interviewed, said that whether the Exodus is historically true or not is almost beside the point. The power of the sweeping epic lies in its profound and timeless message about
freedom, they say.
The story of liberation from bondage into a promised land has inspired the Haunting spirituals of African- American slaves, the emancipation and civil rights movements, Latin America's liberation theology, peasant revolts in Germany, nationalist struggles in South Africa, the American Revolution, even Leninist politics, according to Michael Walzer in the book "Exodus and Revolution."
Many of Wolpe's congregants said the story of the Exodus has been
personally true for them even if the details are not factual: when they fled the Nazis during World War II, for instance, or, more recently, the Islamic revolution in Iran. Daniel Navid Rastein, an Encino medical professional, said he has always regarded the story as a metaphor for a greater truth: "We all have our own Egypts--we are prisoners of something, either alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, overeating. We have to use [the story] as a way to free ourselves from difficulty and make ourselves a better person." Wolpe, Sinai Temple's senior rabbi, said he decided to deliver the sermon to lead his congregation into a deeper understanding of their faith. On Sunday, he told his flock that questioning the Jewish people's founding story could be justified for one reason alone: to honor the ancient rabbinical declaration that " You do not serve God if you do not seek truth." "I think faith ought not rest on splitting seas," Wolpe said in an interview."For a Jew, it should rest on the wonder of God's world, the marvel of the human soul and the miracle of this small people's survival through the millennia." Next year, the rabbi plans to teach a course on the Bible that he says will "pull no punches" in presenting the latest scholarship questioning the text's historical basis.
But he and others say that Judaism has also traditionally been more open to nonliteral interpretations of the text than, say, some conservative Christian traditions. "Among Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews, there is a much greater willingness to see the Torah as an extended metaphor in which truth comes through story and law," said Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles. Among scholars, the case against the Exodus began crystallizing about 13 years ago. That's when Finklestein, director of Tel Aviv University's archeology institute, published the first English-language book detailing the results of intensive archeological surveys of what is believed to be the first Israelite settlements in the hilly regions of the West Bank.
The surveys, conducted during the 1970s and 1980s while Israel possessed
what are now Palestinian territories, documented a lack of evidence for Joshua's
conquests in the 13th century BC and the indistinguishable nature of pottery, architecture, literary conventions and other cultural details between the Canaanites and the new settlers. If there was no conquest, no evidence of a massive new settlement of an ethnically distinct people, scholars argue, then the case for a literal reading of Exodus all but collapses. The surveys' final results were published three years ago. The settlement research marked the turning point in archeological consensus on the issue, Dever said. It added to previous research that showed that Egypt's voluminous ancient records contained not one mention of Israelites in the country, although one 1210 BC inscription did mention them in Canaan. Kadesh Barnea in the east Sinai desert, where the Bible says the fleeing Israelites sojourned, was excavated twice in the 1950s and 1960s and produced no sign of settlement until three centuries after the Exodus was supposed to have occurred. The famous city of Jericho has been excavated several times and was found to have been abandoned during the 13th and 14th centuries BC. Moreover, specialists in the Hebrew Bible say that the Exodus story is riddled with internal contradictions stemming from the fact that it was spliced together from two or three texts written at different times. One passage in Exodus, for instance, says that the bodies of the pharaoh's charioteers were found on the shore, while the next verse says they sank to the bottom of the sea. And some of the story's features are mythic motifs found in other Near Eastern legends, said Ron Hendel, a professor of Hebrew Bible at UC Berkeley.
Stories of babies found in baskets in the water by gods or royalty are common, he
said, and half of the 10 plagues fall into a "formulaic genre of catastrophe" found in other Near Eastern texts. Carol Meyers, a professor specializing in biblical studies and archeology at Duke University, said the ancients never intended their texts to be read literally. "People who try to find scientific explanations for the splitting of the Red Sea are missing the boat in understanding how ancient literature often mixed mythic ideas with historical recollections," she said. "That wasn't considered lying or deceit; it was a way to get ideas across."
Virtually no scholar, for instance, accepts the biblical figure of 600,000 men fleeing Egypt, which would have meant there were a few million people, including women and children. The ancient desert at the time could not support so many nomads, scholars say, and the powerful Egyptian state kept tight security over the area, guarded by fortresses along the way. Even Orthodox Jewish scholar Lawrence Schiffman said "you'd have to be a bit crazy" to accept that figure. He believes that the account in Joshua of a swift military campaign is less accurate than the Judges account of a gradual takeover of Canaan. But Schiffman, chairman of Hebrew and Judaic studies at New York University, still maintains that a significant number of Israelite slaves fled Egypt for Canaan. "I'm not arguing that archeology proves the Exodus," he said. "I'm arguing that archeology allows you, in ambiguity, to reach whatever conclusion you want to." Wood argued that the 600,000 figure was mistranslated and the real number amounted to a more plausible 20,000. He also said the early Israelite settlements and their similarity to Canaanite culture could be explained as the result of pastoralists with no material culture moving into a settled farming life and absorbing their neighbors' pottery styles and other cultural forms.
The scholarly consensus seems to be that the story is a brilliant mix of myth, cultural memories and kernels of historical truth. ‘Perhaps’, muses Hendel, a small group of Semites who escaped from Egypt became the "intellectual vanguard of a new nation that called itself Israel," stressing social justice and freedom. Whatever the facts of the story, those core values have endured and inspired the world for more than three millenniums--and that, many say, is the point. "What are the Egypts I need to free myself from? How does the story inspire me in some way to work for the freedom of all?" asked Rabbi Steven Carr Reuben of Kehillat Israel in Pacific Palisades. "These are the things that matter—not whether we built the pyramids."

Search the archives of the Los Angeles Times for similar stories about: Bible,
Archeology - Middle East, Jews, Israel, Religion - Middle East.


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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:47 am

If he had not been the son of God how could he have fullfilled ALL prophecies about teh messiah? he filled every last one. You also still didn't answer my question as to how you can say he was a good man when in your thginking here he lied about being the son of God? Not just once but repeatedly he said I am to the question are you the messiah.

Garen B
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RE: The Day God Saved Mose And The Sons Of Israel...

Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:53 am

Well I have Jewish ancestry through my mother, Catholic ancestry through my father and an understanding of Islam from being brought up in the Middle East. After having had the opportunity to compare all three religions I believe that all three are deeply flawed from where I stand and that if I ever did convert to a religion it would be Buddhism as that is the only religion that doesn't advocate discriminating against anybody because your god has a bigger one than his.

Out of the three, Judaism is hard to convert to and the religion is dying out because of this. Christianity is on the rise but many Christians are actually only notionally so - i.e. they don't follow the scriptures. As for Islam, well it was on the up but I have the suspicion that in 50 years or so most of the Muslims will either have been wiped out through fighting or will be restricted to cleaning toilets in mosques as Islam doesn't distinguish between religion and politics or private and work life and so these restrictions aren't going to be easy for muslims in a world where flexibility and having an open mind is key. So the clever executive of the future will either become a Buddhist or join the only 'religion' that actually works - the Freemasons!
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