sfointern
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Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:58 am

Here's a good article from "The Economist" arguing for gay marraige and debunking conventional arguments (like Bush's and all the wacko-far-right Christians) against it. Take a look:

********

The case for gay marriage

Feb 26th 2004
From The Economist print edition

SO AT last it is official: George Bush is in favour of unequal rights, big-government intrusiveness and federal power rather than devolution to the states. That is the implication of his announcement this week that he will support efforts to pass a constitutional amendment in America banning gay marriage. Some have sought to explain this action away simply as cynical politics, an effort to motivate his core conservative supporters to turn out to vote for him in November or to put his likely “Massachusetts liberal” opponent, John Kerry, in an awkward spot. Yet to call for a constitutional amendment is such a difficult, drastic and draconian move that cynicism is too weak an explanation. No, it must be worse than that: Mr Bush must actually believe in what he is doing.

Mr Bush says that he is acting to protect “the most fundamental institution of civilisation” from what he sees as “activist judges” who in Massachusetts early this month confirmed an earlier ruling that banning gay marriage is contrary to their state constitution. The city of San Francisco, gay capital of America, has been issuing thousands of marriage licences to homosexual couples, in apparent contradiction to state and even federal laws. It can only be a matter of time before this issue arrives at the federal Supreme Court. And those “activist judges”, who, by the way, gave Mr Bush his job in 2000, might well take the same view of the federal constitution as their Massachusetts equivalents did of their state code: that the constitution demands equality of treatment. Last June, in Lawrence v Texas, they ruled that state anti-sodomy laws violated the constitutional right of adults to choose how to conduct their private lives with regard to sex, saying further that “the Court's obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate its own moral code”. That obligation could well lead the justices to uphold the right of gays to marry.

Let them wed
That idea remains shocking to many people. So far, only two countries—Belgium and the Netherlands—have given full legal status to same-sex unions, though Canada has backed the idea in principle and others have conferred almost-equal rights on such partnerships. The sight of homosexual men and women having wedding days just like those enjoyed for thousands of years by heterosexuals is unsettling, just as, for some people, is the sight of them holding hands or kissing. When The Economist first argued in favour of legalising gay marriage eight years ago (“Let them wed”, January 6th 1996) it shocked many of our readers, though fewer than it would have shocked eight years earlier and more than it will shock today. That is why we argued that such a radical change should not be pushed along precipitously. But nor should it be blocked precipitously.

The case for allowing gays to marry begins with equality, pure and simple. Why should one set of loving, consenting adults be denied a right that other such adults have and which, if exercised, will do no damage to anyone else? Not just because they have always lacked that right in the past, for sure: until the late 1960s, in some American states it was illegal for black adults to marry white ones, but precious few would defend that ban now on grounds that it was “traditional”. Another argument is rooted in semantics: marriage is the union of a man and a woman, and so cannot be extended to same-sex couples. They may live together and love one another, but cannot, on this argument, be “married”. But that is to dodge the real question—why not?—and to obscure the real nature of marriage, which is a binding commitment, at once legal, social and personal, between two people to take on special obligations to one another. If homosexuals want to make such marital commitments to one another, and to society, then why should they be prevented from doing so while other adults, equivalent in all other ways, are allowed to do so?

Civil unions are not enough
The reason, according to Mr Bush, is that this would damage an important social institution. Yet the reverse is surely true. Gays want to marry precisely because they see marriage as important: they want the symbolism that marriage brings, the extra sense of obligation and commitment, as well as the social recognition. Allowing gays to marry would, if anything, add to social stability, for it would increase the number of couples that take on real, rather than simply passing, commitments. The weakening of marriage has been heterosexuals' doing, not gays', for it is their infidelity, divorce rates and single-parent families that have wrought social damage.

But marriage is about children, say some: to which the answer is, it often is, but not always, and permitting gay marriage would not alter that. Or it is a religious act, say others: to which the answer is, yes, you may believe that, but if so it is no business of the state to impose a religious choice. Indeed, in America the constitution expressly bans the involvement of the state in religious matters, so it would be especially outrageous if the constitution were now to be used for religious ends.

The importance of marriage for society's general health and stability also explains why the commonly mooted alternative to gay marriage—a so-called civil union—is not enough. Vermont has created this notion, of a legally registered contract between a couple that cannot, however, be called a “marriage”. Some European countries, by legislating for equal legal rights for gay partnerships, have moved in the same direction (Britain is contemplating just such a move, and even the opposition Conservative leader, Michael Howard, says he would support it). Some gays think it would be better to limit their ambitions to that, rather than seeking full social equality, for fear of provoking a backlash—of the sort perhaps epitomised by Mr Bush this week.

Yet that would be both wrong in principle and damaging for society. Marriage, as it is commonly viewed in society, is more than just a legal contract. Moreover, to establish something short of real marriage for some adults would tend to undermine the notion for all. Why shouldn't everyone, in time, downgrade to civil unions? Now that really would threaten a fundamental institution of civilisation.



 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:10 am

Oh ! How rare !! Another GAY thread !!!  Yeah sure

One more gay thread and A.net should move itself to SF  Insane
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:13 am

Why are gay threads so bad and religious threads so good?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:15 am

I get the connection now, 777236ER my stalker, you LIKE me. That must be why you follow me around so much...

I'm married and have 2 kids, and am very happy.

God bless,

- Jeff
 
Scorpio
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:24 am

777236ER,

Why are gay threads so bad and religious threads so good?

Here's my guess: Our friend here despises the fact that this article pretty much sweeps every argument of the anti-gay crowd here right off the table, and convincingly at it, so he just dismisses it out of hand, and directs attention away from it. It's a well-known tactic. How close am I, Go4EVA?

[Edited 2004-03-01 23:26:44]
 
redngold
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:25 am

Since this hasn't already been clarified, let me do it:

What has been reproduced here is NOT an article (result of research into facts.) It is an opinion piece and should be considered as such, although it's not clear whether this was written by one person or an editorial staff.

redngold

[Edited 2004-03-01 23:27:11]
Up, up and away!
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:26 am

This article makes a very interesting point that by creating civil unions instead of marriage for same sex couples, "traditional" marriage could very well be undermined.

By creating civil unions, we will have created "marriage lite" for a class of people. It will only be a matter of time until others (opposite sex couples) demand the same privileges that civil unions afford. So then, you have two classes of unions - civil union and marriage. This begins to muddy the waters and seems a much more likely way to erode the institution of marriage.

So for those who are really in this fight to protect marriage, it might be wise for them to consider including their gay bretheren under the same rules of marriage and leave the civil union stuff alone.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:28 am

Why are gay threads so bad and religious threads so good?

I've never initiated either kind. I've never said religious threads were good, either.

Careful matey... Don't put words into other people's mouths, ok?  Smile

I do participate, though. I think there has been a lot of BOTH kinds of threads, maybe too many.

God bless,

- Jeff
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:44 am

O.K. !

I gotta go. This thread seems DOA ?!?

Scorpio, please see someone about that foot in your mouth. Hopefully they'll be able to remove it painlessly.  Big grin

God bless,

- Jeff

[Edited 2004-03-01 23:46:14]
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:48 am

Oh come on, you participate in the religious threads and when a gay thread comes up you write "Oh ! How rare !! Another GAY thread !!! One more gay thread and A.net should move itself to SF"

MAYBE too many? I don't see you going on to religious threads and writing things similar to above.

Edit: Please stop double posting. There IS an edit feature.

[Edited 2004-03-01 23:49:22]
Your bone's got a little machine
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:21 am

SFOintern,
Can that article be found online? If so, could you post a link (if it's legal)?
~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
windshear
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:40 am

"I get the connection now, 777236ER my stalker, you LIKE me. That must be why you follow me around so much..."

Em who is assuming who?
I think opinions or phobic/paranoid (phobia=irrational fear) remarks like these are what is really messing up discussions like these...
For every reply you make with statements/views like these there will be at least one topic, gay people feel the need to protest against such views and assumptions.

So if there wasn't harsh language, discrimination, ignorance and violence towards gay people, there would be nothing to protest about or cry out about, so stop telling us to shut up and start giving us a reason NOT TO!!!

"I'm married and have 2 kids, and am very happy."

Yes and thank God for that, but that is in fact what we gay people also want to experience!

So we are here for the same reason, but some are trying to refuse us the right or ability to achieve such joy in life...

WAKE UP!!!

Boaz..
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:50 am

"The weakening of marriage has been heterosexuals' doing, not gays', for it is their infidelity, divorce rates and single-parent families that have wrought social damage."

Absolutely agree.

"Allowing gays to marry would, if anything, add to social stability, for it would increase the number of couples that take on real, rather than simply passing, commitments."

That's an interesting point, and I must admit that I haven't ever thought of it that way. However, I have decided to forgo speculating on the correction of broad social trends, as they are generally far too complex for my training as a flight instructor. Instead, I will do all that I can to strengthen the family on the micro level, which is to say, my own.

"Why shouldn't everyone, in time, downgrade to civil unions? Now that really would threaten a fundamental institution of civilisation."

I'd favor marriage for all long before I'd favor marriage for none.

'Speed

P.S. Hey MBM, we've gotta hang out sometime. I may be heading to D.C. this summer, and then on to Florida for grad school.
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:51 am

SFOintern, excellent article, thanks for posting!

I totally support gay marriage and gay adoption and do not see how allowing these will undermine 'traditional' marriage. This article makes excellent arguments.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:54 am

Em who is assuming who?
I think opinions or phobic/paranoid (phobia=irrational fear) remarks like these are what is really messing up discussions like these...
For every reply you make with statements/views like these there will be at least one topic, gay people feel the need to protest against such views and assumptions.


I think YOU are making assumptions here, without any info.

In almost any thread where I post, 777236ER is immediately there to counter whatever I write. He does this ALMOST EVERY TIME I write something.

To me, that is a stalker. I choose to be flattered rather than frightened.

I have NOTHING against gay people. I was getting tired of the number of these threads... RELIGIOUS ONES TOO !! OK?

Windshear, you may need to get that foot out of YOUR mouth too. Talk to Scorpio.

And stop jumping to conclusions... 'kay?

God bless,

- Jeff
 
csavel
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:56 am

Powerful argument, especially when it comes from the establishment pro-business Economist and not a leftist mag. Especially this line.

"George Bush is in favour of unequal rights, big-government intrusiveness and federal power rather than devolution to the states."

not to pick on Dubya specifically, but this is a problem with a lot of Social Conservative poiticians, they hate government until they want government to enforce their moral agenda. Then they love big government. Libertarians have a phrase for them - morality socialists.

I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:58 am

In almost any thread where I post, 777236ER is immediately there to counter whatever I write. He does this ALMOST EVERY TIME I write something.

To me, that is a stalker. I choose to be flattered rather than frightened.


No, that's called me disagreeing with your views. To call me a stalker then to mock me saying you're "flattered rather than frightened", and even to imply I'm gay - as if that explains why I'm "obsessed" with you - is downright insulting and says a lot more about you than it does about me.

I have NOTHING against gay people. I was getting tired of the number of these threads... RELIGIOUS ONES TOO !! OK?

So why did your post talk only about gay threads? If you were getting tired of the number of religious ones, why didn't you post something similar in there instead of continuing to post.

And given that you said you take the Bible as your judge of personal sin, and you said the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you believe homosexuality is a sin. That doesn't sound like "having nothing against gays" to me.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:01 am

He's Baaaaaaack

I knew you were waiting for me to post.

Thanks for proving my point.

I have decided to no longer bother with you.
 
sfointern
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:01 am

http://www.economist.com/printedition/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=2459758

The link, as requested.
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:04 am

Excuse me?

What point have I proven?

I disagree with your points, I'm not "stalking you" nor do I "LIKE" [sic] you.

You came into this thread, said how you disliked it, made double and triple posts, then you claimed not to be biased against homosexuality - despite the fact that in a previous thread you said you thought it was a sin, you insulted me, you said I was a stalker, you said I was gay in a way that was offensive to homosexuals, and now you have "decided to no longer bother" me.

Good riddance.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
windshear
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:27 am

You made an assumption mr. Eva...
A personal assumption, I don't think I need to quote again, but that kind of rhetoric has to change, and that is what I stated, I did NOT assume anything, I am simply trying to illustrate how such rhetoric is being said or written to gay people or in gay debates...

So this was NOT an assumption, but an effort to enlighten you on how you should rethink your rhetoric, if you want to see less gay posts that is...

"I have NOTHING against gay people. I was getting tired of the number of these threads... RELIGIOUS ONES TOO !! OK?"

Em again if I have misunderstood you, you might rethink the way to write or express your self on this matter, because this is MY personal reaction to such rhetoric, so if you want us to know how you feel, then explain it with out fire or flames...

"Windshear, you may need to get that foot out of YOUR mouth too. Talk to Scorpio."

Explain...???
Again an example of failed point making...I have no idea what you mean...

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
sleekjet
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:37 am

Personally, I would appreciate it if the homosexuals would call this by another name. "Marriage" is a word only for describing the union between a husband and a wife.

If they want to call it by another name or phrase of their choice, so be it. But don't change the meaning of the word. That would be like saying that "red" is now "green" and hoping everyone is OK with it.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:42 am

"...you believe homosexuality is a sin. That doesn't sound like "having nothing against gays" to me."

Remember, he doesn't have a problem with "gay" people per se, just homosexual behavior. There is a rather substantial difference.

'Speed
 
Inbound
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:56 am

Robin Williams said something along these lines Sunday night on the Red Carpet..

"I have nothing against SAME SEX marriages because once you get married, it's the SAME SEX over and over again"

haha
Maintain own separation with terrain!
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:27 pm

Remember, he doesn't have a problem with "gay" people per se, just homosexual behavior. There is a rather substantial difference.

There is? Beliving that the sex you have, and loving the person you love, are mortal sins is classed as "a problem" to me.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
BN747
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:15 pm

The thing I don't get about the anti-gay guys the most simpliest of all...let them! That's all the more babes for the straight doods!!! It's simple math!


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:12 pm

"There is? Beliving that the sex you have, and loving the person you love, are mortal sins is classed as "a problem" to me."

I'll be the first to admit that there is a lot I don't know about homosexuality, and so I can only guess how things must be. I will have to give this some more thought.

In general, however, I fail to see how a person and their behavior are indistinguishable. After all, a change in behavior is what "learning" is defined as. Are you telling me that everyone is a "bad" person until they learn some given concept?

'Speed
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:09 am

In general, however, I fail to see how a person and their behavior are indistinguishable. After all, a change in behavior is what "learning" is defined as. Are you telling me that everyone is a "bad" person until they learn some given concept?

'Speed


I agree with you 'Speed. A child stealing a toy may not know that theft is wrong until he is informed. It is, however, society that has determined whether theft is acceptable or not. If the child were brought up in a place where theft was socially acceptable, then the outcome would be different.

The point is that the child was at no time "bad". The child was guilty of bad behaviour. That's all.

Does this analogy apply to gay folks ? Not at all. I don't want to give short schrift to homosexuality. Being gay, I'm sure, is much more complex than that. But, 'Speed, you are correct in keeping a persons actions separate from their worth or value as a human being.

God bless,  Smile

- Jeff
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:14 am

A child stealing a toy may not know that theft is wrong until he is informed. It is, however, society that has determined whether theft is acceptable or not. If the child were brought up in a place where theft was socially acceptable, then the outcome would be different.

You quite clearly said you thought homosexuality was a sin. So if someone "committed" homosexuality, while knowing it was "a sin", how does that bear on the person?

The point is that the child was at no time "bad". The child was guilty of bad behavior. That's all.

By that analogy, murderers are at no time "bad", they are only guilty of bad behavior?

behavior and personality are intertwined, and both can define each other.

The problem is defining what's bad and what's not bad. You think homosexuality is bad.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:46 am

"You quite clearly said you thought homosexuality was a sin. So if someone "committed" homosexuality, while knowing it was "a sin", how does that bear on the person?"

But everyone commits sin, sure as death and taxes. I commit sin. How many four-letter words does NormalSpeed use? More than he should. And how often does Normal lose patience with his fellow humans? Far too often. (Sometimes those two sins are commited in conjunction.) Now, does the fact that Normal is susceptible to weakness diminish his worth as a person? Not in the least!

"Sin" is defined as any action (behavior) that is contrary to God's commandments. We will all run afoul of those laws, and repeatedly--it is an inescapable fact of life.

"...behavior and personality are intertwined, and both can define each other."

Agreed, but we aren't talking about behavior vs. personality, we are talking about behavior vs. the instrinsic value of a human being. And it is my opinion that one does not effect the other.

'Speed


[Edited 2004-03-02 17:59:02]
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:50 am

Hee hee...  Smile





The message you were about to post is too short and probably not of any higher value to the topic at hand. You should think long and hard before posting a message in this forum and make it detailed and a valuable addition to the topic discussed.

Avoid posting "Me Too" messages. These are messages that are posted by people who agree to a point being discussed and post a one liner, "me too!", "Good post Jim!", "I disagree" or similar message. This takes up time as readers must sort through these messages which have no real value to the group at large. Any message containing nothing more than a line or two of text is probably not worth posting.

If you have an opinion on a topic, you should in detail express why you have the opinion and what made you come to that conclusion.

Your post should be relevant to the topic discussed.
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:54 am

BTW 'Speed, you are spot on.  Smile

I agree completely.

God bless,

- Jeff
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:56 am

"By that analogy, murderers are at no time "bad", they are only guilty of bad behavior?"

Just noticed this line, and thought that it should be addressed. And yes, that's what that analogy does say. However, under civil law, one is not prosecuted for thinking about commiting murder (although I would agree that murderous thoughts are definitely an indicator of social pathology), only for the action, or the behavior.

In other words, I think the typical practice of labeling things "good" or "bad" is simplistic at best. Which is definitely not to say that there is no good or bad, but issues are generally far too complex for a simple good vs. bad determination.

'Speed
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:59 am

Sleekjet, I'm with you on that one. Good suggestion.
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
windshear
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:26 am

But then what if a gay person is a good person, that upholds all laws an social norms beside just falling in love with a same sex person, why is that a sin, if he/she does no harm to fellow members of the human race and tries to transform spiritually through his/her life...?

Is that a sin?

Loosing temper is not a sin, but its reactive behavior and it is not what ascends you to a higher spiritual level...

Love thy neighbor as yourself it was said by a Kabbalist, so if you can love others and think good of others, then you are with out sin...The wish to receive for the purpose of sharing is the highest you can achieve in Kabbalah, but then were does loving a person of the same sex destroy any of those spiritual steps?

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
777236ER
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:33 am

In other words, I think the typical practice of labeling things "good" or "bad" is simplistic at best. Which is definitely not to say that there is no good or bad, but issues are generally far too complex for a simple good vs. bad determination.

So what you're saying is that the Bible and Go4EVA saying "homosexuality = sin" ignores the fact that it's a much larger issue?

But everyone commits sin, sure as death and taxes. I commit sin. How many four-letter words does NormalSpeed use? More than he should. And how often does Normal lose patience with his fellow humans? Far too often. (Sometimes those two sins are commited in conjunction.) Now, does the fact that Normal is susceptible to weakness diminish his worth as a person? Not in the least!

"Sin" is defined as any action (behavior) that is contrary to God's commandments. We will all run afoul of those laws, and repeatedly--it is an inescapable fact of life.

But don't you realise that the idea that "everyone commits sin" is STILL dependent on believing in God? I don't think humans inherently "sin", but then again I don't believe in God.

The idea that everyone commits sin is just your own interpretation of life, just as I have my own.

However, under civil law, one is not prosecuted for thinking about committing murder (although I would agree that murderous thoughts are definitely an indicator of social pathology), only for the action, or the behavior.

But behavior and personality are intertwined. A murderer by necessity has a murderous personality. Even the timid housewife who kills a violent husband has a murderous personality. Punishing murderous behavoir also punishes a murderous personality.

As for the issue, using your analogy someone who is attracted to their own sex, isn't interested in the opposite sex, and IS gay - but who doesn't have sex with their own sex - is completly free of (sexual) sin?

In that case does God only care about physical actions, and has nothing to do with the person's psychology?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
vaman
Posts: 316
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:50 am

This is my proposal for this whole situation.

The word Marriage carries many religious overtones. Thus, the rightwing gets very agitated with the idea of gay marriage.

This however, is America. We preide ourselves in being a country for everyone. A melting pot of cultures and ideas.

Why not legalize civil unions. There is no religious overtones and no one nor any couple should be denied their rights to family of his or on choosing.

Then, if certain church's or religious groups want to allow marriage of same sex under their own demnination or sect, then let them.

As for homosexuality being a sin.... Let's let God, YHWH, Allah, or whomever runs the heavens make that decision...
 
Guest

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:50 am

"Punishing murderous behavoir also punishes a murderous personality."

No, punishing murderous behavior only punishes murderous behavior. Last time I checked, we didn't have thought police.

And I agree, personality can affect behavior, but that was never the point of the discussion. My point is that behavior does not affect a person's intrinsic value, or God's love for that person, if you will.

"As for the issue, using your analogy someone who is attracted to their own sex, isn't interested in the opposite sex, and IS gay - but who doesn't have sex with their own sex - is completly free of (sexual) sin?"

Yes, very good. That happens to be my church's official stance. In fact, I know several people in that exact situation.

However, there are a couple things that I think should be stated. I believe that any sexual activity outside of marriage is a serious sin, which is a belief that seems to be lacking among many other Christian sects. Also, to commit adultery, meaning marital infidelity, is, in my opinion, much worse than homosexual behavior.

But no matter what a person does, God's love is a constant.

"In that case does God only care about physical actions, and has nothing to do with the person's psychology?"

Hmm... that's a very good question. I'll have to do some research and get back to you.

'Speed
 
windshear
Posts: 2261
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RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:05 am

Yes indeed a good question...

Gay people love (spiritual) same sex...(Physical)...
Good person (spiritual) bad person (spiritual)...

I judaism there is no hell, like in Buddism hell is what we inflict ourselves, so the more negative you reactive behavior becomes the less light from God will shine on you, simply because you block the light by negative deeds...

So if we are sinners then surely none of us will have light in our life, living a life of misery! But I don't...

Also intuition is from the light and logic thoughts are from the Satan, the Satan being inside of each an every one of us, and to love and share is intuition so they originate from the same devine light that keeps galaxies spinning and people to fall in love...Ergo I cannot see how this is found sinful...

Some of you are fixed on sex, but this physical matter is simply a vail that blocks our spiritual selves from shining through...

Try to think spritually and not physically as this is the trap...

If you find something that is spiritually corrupt or sinful about a gay man or women, then that person is sinful, but if all you can is is physical sin, then think again...

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
johnboy
Posts: 2561
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:05 pm

Legally speaking, wouldn't it be extremely tedious to give equal rights to those in "civil unions" to make them on an even (legal) keel with "marriage?"

I mean, hundreds of laws would have to be changed for creating another class of legal contract called "civil union." If the laws are changed to allow same-sex "marriage," only a few words need be altered, and the whole deal is done.

So semantically and philosophically (or morally) people may have objections, but in the end it's just easier to call it "marriage" (legally-speaking).
 
mrwayne
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:15 am

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:54 pm

When are these gays going to stop going on about there rights.
NORMAL couple`s (ie man & woman) who are not married don`t get the same rights as married couple`s so what is so special about the GAY community.
And as for adoption NO WAY !!!!
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:11 am

NORMAL couple`s (ie man & woman) who are not married don`t get the same rights as married couple`s so what is so special about the GAY community

LOL, you just answered your own argument. That is exactly why gay couples should have the option of marriage.
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:05 am

I'm still struggling to understand what the big deal is. Gay couples are going to live together and be together anyways. Who in the world is it going to hurt to let them get married? Let it be official, doesn't hurt a thing.

MrWayne, your argument makes no sense (as CPDC10-30 already pointed out).
You just basically asked why they are complaining about rights and then pointed out how they will never have all their rights without marriage. No one is gay because they think its trendy. Just how they are, people need to get over it.



FSP
 
mrwayne
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:15 am

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:21 am

Because no one is satnding up for the normal people who are not gay!

Why should you get all the same rights? You should be together as singles, not as married / gay couples.
 
fspilot747
Posts: 3455
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 2:58 am

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:13 am

What do you mean no one is standing up for people who are not gay? Again, that really doesn't make valid sense. Why does it bother you SO much if they get married? I'm not gay, but it's no skin off my back if gay people get married.


FSP
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4806
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:26 am

Mrwayne,

Because no one is satnding up for the normal people who are not gay!

Don't you see that us 'normal people who are not gay' ALREADY HAVE all the rights the gay community is now fighting for? So what exactly should people be standing up for here?

Why should you get all the same rights?

Let's reverse that question: Why should straight people get more rights than gay people?

You should be together as singles, not as married / gay couples.

Why should they be together as singles (by which I think you refer to legal status) while we, straight people, have the option not to? Again, why should WE have the option to get married, while gay people should not?
 
seb146
Posts: 14353
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Why Gay Marriage Makes Sense

Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:31 am

Multnomah County, most populated in Oregon and across the river from me, just started issuing government documents for same-gendered couples wishing to be one.

We can get married.

Which is easier to say? More to the point, I was talking with my brother about this. He is conservative as they come and devout Adventist. He asked if I was married. I said "To whom? I don't even have a boyfriend, so what would be the point." He asked my opinion on the whole subject:

My personal bitterness aside (the boyfriend thing), Multnomah County charges $60 for a marriage certificate. If 100 couples get a marriage certificate, that is $6000 for cash-strapped Multnomah County to invest in police, fire, schools, libraries, etc. Furthermore, come tax time, these couples will need to file taxes under the 'married' category. Don't couples filing married pay more taxes? Plus, if they divorce, don't they pay something too? I say: let the heteros have their word 'marriage' for the religous ceremony and give everyone equal rights including the right to pay more fees and taxes.

GO CANUCKS!!
Patriotic and Proud Liberal

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