Sonic
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Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:15 am

So, parents of a kid who hanged himself and was discussing suicide before this on various IRC channels and using various pro suicide as a choice websites wants such sites and newsgroups to be closed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3537155.stm

But what is your opinion about such websites? Do you think they are bad or actually harming young people? My personal opinion is that one who wants to commit a suicide and wants to do so because of something which forces him/her to suffer for a long time should be able to do so. Don't get me wrong - I am against such suicides where a person kills himself because of some one-time event, e.g. girlfriend leaving him or failing exams. Unfortunatelly, such suicides makes quite a big part of all suicides. But in those mentioned websites they are also definitely not promoted - it is always urged to think several times before doing something like this. However, if person's situation is due to some things such miserable for long time and there aren't any possible ways to make it better soon (e.g. terminal disease, various inabilities (which some people could thing life is no longer meaningful without these abilities), living ('existing') without home nor anything, great dependancy on drugs, etc.), I support each person's right to commit suicide.
However, does these websites really can't give suicidal thoughs to "healthy" people? Personally, I think they could. According to them, they doesn't promotes suicide for those who doesn't want it. They supposedly just shows possibilities to do it in the easier or better, less painful way than some people would do otherwise. Also, some people supposedly could find support in these sites/chats/newsgroups in other ways, e.g. see that their problems are after all not so big comparing to these of other people who posts there and decide not to kill themselves after all. I am not sure about this personally - I find posts there depressing enough to "push over the edge" somebody who is already leaning.

Because such discution without examples would be null, I am giving links to such websites and newsgroups (I had to move links to another post due to the fact that sides of the thread due to links were cut, scroll down).

[Edited 2004-03-09 17:30:59]
 
david b.
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:18 am

The thread is cut-off on the sides.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Sonic
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:28 am

Because any such discution would be null for people who doesn't knows these sites, I am providing some links here... Judge for yourself:

alt.suicide.holiday newsgroup:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&scoring=d&as_drrb=b&q=alt.suicide.holiday&as_mind=2&as_minm=1&as_miny=1990&as_maxd=10&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2004&meta=

Some postings inside this newsgroup (note - to see the first post in the topic click on the uppermost of posts, listed at the left side):
"I already chose a date (for death)"
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=62a5ef4c160aec5cf35b844a729e431a%40news.teranews.com&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.suicide.holiday%26scoring%3Dd%26as_drrb%3Db%26as_mind%3D2%26as_minm%3D1%26as_miny%3D1990%26as_maxd%3D10%26as_maxm%3D3%26as_maxy%3D2004%26start%3D0

"What do people wear when they ctb?" (ctb = catch the bus = commit suicide)
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=c2jc7c%2495r%241%40news.eusc.inter.net&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.suicide.holiday%26scoring%3Dd%26as_drrb%3Db%26as_mind%3D2%26as_minm%3D1%26as_miny%3D1990%26as_maxd%3D10%26as_maxm%3D3%26as_maxy%3D2004%26start%3D25

"Will these drugs do the trick?"
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=96ef5379.0403082326.d079361%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.suicide.holiday%26scoring%3Dd%26as_drrb%3Db%26as_mind%3D2%26as_minm%3D1%26as_miny%3D1990%26as_maxd%3D10%26as_maxm%3D3%26as_maxy%3D2004%26start%3D0

And so on. They speaks also about messages to leave, their condition and
how bad each day was, also reports news about how they bought ropes, got
drugs, etc. And sometimes talks about those of their groups who "succeeded". There are some trolls at that newsgroup however, so skip
their posts and search for real ones if you want to see what such newsgroup is like.

Pro-suicide as a choice website with forums, chatroom, etc.:
http://ashbusstop.org/

Note - I would advise user discrection for going to mentioned websites.

Post your opinions about this. Should it be banned or not? If not, than is it generally a good thing?..

[Edited 2004-03-09 17:23:45]
 
prosa
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:38 am

Disturbing stuff, but because I'm a big advocate of freedom of speech, the sites should not be banned.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
david b.
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:46 am

Some guy blew his brains out a few months back at Stony Brook University. I don't what to know what lead up to that.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
prosa
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:48 am

The girl who started the "I already chose a date (for death)" thread on the newsgroup has her own site:

http://www.xanga.com/skin.asp?user=omgxxkellie

Actually seeing the picture of someone who's planning on hanging herself somehow is very creepy. Hopefully she'll change her mind, though since it'll be her fifth attempt (according to the NG posts) that's probably not too likely.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Sonic
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:58 am

PROSA, there are other posts by her too which were posted later
(about a month after the one mentioned, March 9th 2004 actually). It
doesn't seems she changed her mind... :

Some other person telling her plan is not perfect
(with her reply):
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=2004030900390327590%25invisiman%40nowherecom&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26scoring%3Dd%26as_drrb%3Db%26q%3Dalt.suicide.holiday%26as_mind%3D2%26as_minm%3D1%26as_miny%3D1990%26as_maxd%3D10%26as_maxm%3D12%26as_maxy%3D2004%26meta%3D

Also if search you can find posts about her buying the rope
and also thoughts about her final letter ("poem I am going to leave").

[Edited 2004-03-09 18:00:01]
 
prosa
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:14 am

PROSA, there are other posts by her too which were posted later
(about a month after the one mentioned, March 9th 2004 actually). It
doesn't seems she changed her mind... :


On the other hand, on her site she says she's planning to attend a rave party on April 20 and what seems to be a concert on May 24. She's also given considerable personal information between her site and her NG postings - her name is Kelly Liu, and she's a student at the University of California at Davis. Enough information that anyone who reads it could probably try to stop her suicide, for instance by contacting the UC Davis police. My guess is that Kelly is either so far out of touch that she doesn't realize she's giving out too much information, or she's some sort of Uber-troll.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Sonic
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:49 am

PROSA, could be so that she's a troll. However, she said at other place that she is very disconnected from everything, that somebody said her "They catched Bush and Bin Laden will run for president" and she asked "really?" thinking that could be true. Also, it could be that she's taking drugs or some kind of sedatives. And some people doesn't knows about newsgroups archiving and things it's temporary thing so nobody would track them down (as other members of same newsgroup supports this decition).
 
cfalk
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:03 pm

Considering that exponential population growth is becoming a major problem in the world, we should be promoting suicide and euthenasia as much as possible, preferably to kids before the are of an age to reproduce (2 birds, one stone, y'know what I mean?)

I keep thinking of the scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian, with the "Crack Suicide Squad".

Charles

P.S. Sorry for the above - I seem to have a strange sense of humor this morning.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opi

Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:56 pm

Suicide's a hard topic to even touch; I myself am not opposed to it, but I feel that one must understand the impact that one's suicide will have on one's friends and family, and must truly be willing to give up all relationships for something that is completely unknown, and very possibly nothing.

I guess my philosophy is that if someone sane really wants to die and experience whatever comes with that, and has made peace with their family and friends and whatnot, then can anyone legitimately say that they shouldn't? I just don't know, and as in most circumstances where I can't find a definitive answer, I would have to go with the person who is pushing the boundaries.

At worst (in my non-religious view) they'll simply cease to exist, and at best they'll pass on to some other world/dimension of which we have no capability for comprehension, be it better or worse.
~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Sonic
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:38 am

PROSA, it seems that girl was not fake after all:

http://surreal.nu/blog/

By the way, back in March 11th or 12th if I remember correctly she also posted that she is going to kill herself that night because she couldn't have waited for spring break as originally planned...
 
prosa
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:12 am

PROSA, it seems that girl was not fake after all:
http://surreal.nu/blog/


If this is true - blogs aren't always reliable - it's definitely disturbing. She had given enough information in advance that someone could have intervened and hopefully stopped her plan. I noted that in my post of March 9 (She's also given considerable personal information between her site and her NG postings - her name is Kelly Liu, and she's a student at the University of California at Davis. Enough information that anyone who reads it could probably try to stop her suicide, for instance by contacting the UC Davis police), which was two days before her suicide.
As you might guess, I'm going to be asking myself - repeatedly - why I didn't do anything ... and I doubt I'll have any good answers  Sad



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:22 am

I think if someone want to commit suicide for a terminal reason only, that's fine. If you have family or kids, I think it should be an open discussion with them about it so its not as much of a shock.

Off topic but do you remember back in 1987 when Budd Dwyer the Pennsylvania state treasurer committed suicide on live TV at his press conference? That was crazy.
 
MYT332
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:24 am

How depressing is this ppl?
R.I.P. Kelly Liu
One Life, Live it.
 
Sonic
Topic Author
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:35 am

PROSA,
This is quite disturbing for me too - I am actually supporting the choice of suicide for some people, but what is more disturbing for me is that I am not too sure she really wanted it. Judging from her posts in alt.suicide.holiday , she very likely specially given so much info about her so someone would save her. Also, there is fact of 4 unsuccesful suicide attempts previously (and as that blog I given a link to before indicates, this is probably true). It seems she attempted to drug herself up, but done so in her own room (I believe doing it somewhere far from people would've been much more likely to succeed, if she wanted this), she attempted to jump from Golden Gate bridge but wasn't able to... Probably she attempted suicides each time just to get attention?.. Her posts, e.g. that one with poem she was going to leave were quite different from these of other suicidal people - she thought about how many people will miss her and this poem generally was sad. Also, she told about her "rituals" before suicide, involving burning candles around path to a tree, making drinks at night, etc. - everything so that probably she wanted somone who cared to notice this all and stop her... Perhaps each attempt was a way to check if somebody still cares? This is just my opinion however, and I am not a psychologist, so this is the link to her latest posts listing so everyone could judge by themselves:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:snowfalls81%40hotmail.com+
The one on top is her final message written in evening of 2004/03/11 in which she says goodbye to the NG. There were no posts by her in any newsgroups nor updates to any of her sites after that.
But, since what has happened has happened, probably it would be better just to forget it now... Although it's not easy.

ArmitageShanks,
The main thing about discution with family and kids about suicide is that in probably 99,5% of cases they won't understand you (unless you have, e.g. worst case of permanent disease). They would attempt to help you and to save you. That is why almost nobody of suiciders talks about that with people closest to them. And the only way everything could be told to the family is suicide letter probably, unfortunately...
Commiting suicides in front of cameras is quite dumb... The only case in which I could somewhat (but only somewhat) understand it would be if e.g. politician claims responsibility for corruption and other such things he done bad in past and as such commits suicide in front of his people. It would be like a more extreme form of resignation. But even this would happen only in certain, if any, cultures...
 
mika
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:58 am

Very tragic story....

Something that many people fail to see (whatever the person trying to commit suicide tells you) is that it is the absolute last cry for help from a emotionally disturbed person. She wouldn't have posted all that stuff on the internet if she wouldn't wan't anyone to take notice of her and her situation. Extremely disturbing.
 
vafi88
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:00 am

It really doesn't matter to me. If people are stupid enough to take their own lives for something as silly as failing an exam (which I know sucks a lot), then go ahead.

Anyone heard of survival of the fittest? People who are just that emotionally unstable shouldn't be here in the first place.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
prosa
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:29 pm

Sonic,
I agree with what you said - Kelly may have been hoping right to the end that someone would stop her. That "Tonight's the Night" post for which you gave a link is one of the more tragic things I've read in a long time. I guess she wasn't a troll, or a drama queen, but a very, very unhappy young lady who never got the help she needed and wanted. We can only hope that she's found some measure of peace.

Vafi88,
Read some of Kelly's postings on that suicide newsgroup, prior messages in this thread have the links. I suspect that you'll think differently if you read them.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
vafi88
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:23 pm

Prosa - I understand that I'm taking this way harsh, but from personal experience with people that are somewhat suicidal, I'm not taking the chance. If you really feel like doing it, go ahead, you're not hurting my feelings.

What are their choices anyway? Death or mental institution.

A person is weak if they give up, and being weak isn't for this world.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:38 pm

Prosa - I understand that I'm taking this way harsh, but from personal experience with people that are somewhat suicidal, I'm not taking the chance. If you really feel like doing it, go ahead, you're not hurting my feelings.

Vitaly, would it hurt if it was someone you cared about?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
mika
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:47 pm

A person is weak if they give up, and being weak isn't for this world.

I'm convinced that there's a pain limit for everyone. At a certain point every single individual on this earth can be driven to self destruction (or worse, homicide AND suicide). The limit just varies.
 
prosa
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RE: Suicide Support Sites And Newsgroups: Your Opinion

Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:52 am

I'm convinced that there's a pain limit for everyone. At a certain point every single individual on this earth can be driven to self destruction (or worse, homicide AND suicide). The limit just varies.

For sure. I would say that with most people - I won't guess any specific percentages - the limit is very high. Fatal illness with uncontrollable pain is probably the most common. Irreversible financial ruin might be enough for some. In the case of Kelly Liu, however, the pain was probably inside her mind, which may not make it any less painful, just harder for others to understand.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"

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