MD-90
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Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:14 pm

Remember Kerry accusing Bush of sending troops into war and forcing the soldiers' families to buy them body armor because the military had insufficient supplies? And of course, somehow it was directly Bush's fault. Emphasis is mine.



Who Needs Weapons?
It’s good we didn’t listen to Kerry back in ’84.

By Rep. J. D. Hayworth

"We are continuing a defense buildup that is consuming our resources with weapons systems that we don't need and can't use." — John Kerry in 1984 on the Reagan defense build-up.

What are some of these weapons systems that John Kerry said "we don't need and can't use?" The list might surprise you. It includes many of the most important weapons in our arsenal and weapons that have performed brilliantly in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Among the systems John Kerry said he wanted to cancel were the B-1 bomber, the Apache helicopter, the Patriot anti-missile system, the Aegis cruiser, the AV-8B Harrier jump jet, the F-15, the F-14 A and D models, the Phoenix air-to-air missile, and the Sparrow air-to-air missile. And those Tomahawk cruise missiles that have become the standoff weapon of choice? Kerry wanted to cut the program in half.

That's what makes the recent charge by John Kerry that troops have had to buy their own body armor so hypocritical. Because if John Kerry had had his way, our troops would have had to buy their own tanks, their own fighter jets, their own missiles, their own helicopters, their own warships, their own...you get the idea. (For the record, according to the Pentagon, all troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have body armor.)

His attack also ignores the fact that funding for additional body armor was contained in the $87 billion bill funding operations in Iraq and Afghanistan that John Kerry voted against (after he voted for it, of course).

Imagine what today's military would look like without the Apache helicopter; without the B-1 bomber; and without the F-15 or the F-14. Remember the thrill we all had during the first Gulf War each time a Patriot missile shot down one of Saddam's Scuds? If the country had listened to John Kerry in 1984, all of Saddam's Scuds would have gotten through.

Just a little while ago, critics were wrongly suggesting that Iraq is another Vietnam. While we may not be fighting another Vietnam, John Kerry would have us fighting in Iraq with the same weapons.

— The Honorable J. D. Hayworth is a Republican congressman from Arizona.


Does seem hypocritical, doesn't it?
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:21 pm

Dude, Bush got his 87 billion to piss away in Iraq. Even thou Kerry voted against it.... So why hasn't Bush bought our boys their body armor ??? He got the cash for it ??? Maybe its because Hillaburton needs the money ???
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
TYSGoVols
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:23 pm

Or it may just be that pesky rebuilding Iraq thing?

<>< Garen
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zak
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:35 pm

f-14s are obsolete and are getting replaced with super hornets.
phoenix are limited to the f14 hence useless, besides aim-7 and aim-54c are getting replaced with aim-120s anyway
just a few obviously wrong points.
besides a thinner military is always better. how can anyone not support u.s. military spending cuts? they waste BILLIONS A DAY for nothing.
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MD-90
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:57 pm

It's foolish to post a response without reading a post well first.

1984
 
jaysit
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:03 pm

As usual the right engages in double speak. The dishonorable JD Hayworth's words need some dissection.

A lot of the military spending programs on the 80s were inextricably linked to Reagan's hoky Star Wars buildup. Which meant that many, if not all, military appropriations had huge star wars riders built into them. A vote against a military spending program because of cost overruns or SDI/STar Wars absurd elements is often the necessary thing to do. Needless to say, Kerry has voted for numerous military appropriations. However, GOP cronyism and favoritism towards big defense contractors in the go-go 80s (remember those HUGE deficits caused by military spending?) had to be curtailed, especially when linked to bogus SDI plans.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
phxairfan
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:50 pm

A letter like that is why I am voting for J.D Hayworth for as long as they consider me an Arizona resident. I think that although the military does spend a lot of money, and get reamed by the companies they buy from. That their current expenditures are necessary. Although I think they did the right thing in cutting the Comanche program, as it is not needed. I hope to god John Kerry doesn't get elected, because if he does I guarantee you that America will become the new France.
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:11 pm

Among the systems John Kerry said he wanted to cancel were the B-1 bomber, the Apache helicopter, the Patriot anti-missile system, the Aegis cruiser, the AV-8B Harrier jump jet, the F-15, the F-14 A and D models, the Phoenix air-to-air missile, and the Sparrow air-to-air missile. And those Tomahawk cruise missiles that have become the standoff weapon of choice? Kerry wanted to cut the program in half.

MD90 post the exact quote where Kerry said he wanted to eliminate all this.

1. Half that stuff is crap! Except for the Cruise missiles!

2. It's fact that the body armor ordered by the military us flawed and cannot perform as advertised.

3. My brother said when he went to Iraq on average each guy spend (from their own pockets) between $1200 - $1500 per man to replace items from GPS units,cold/hot weather gear to flak-vest to 'cover their own asses' since they were headed for combat!

Kerry just knows what many of us either suspect or know to be fact...that government contractors DO NOT have the best interest of our troops at heart...thier number one priority is getting that government contract first and increasing the profit margin second..even if it means implementing cost-cutting measures and delivering a far inferior product than promised!


BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:19 pm

France is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to trade in my balls to live there. But boy can they cook.
 
TYSGoVols
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:31 pm

There has only been one U.S. President that has been convicted of lying to the American public in recent history. As for bush I still don't see any evidence of a lie.

<>< Garenn
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BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:37 pm

And if the question he lied to... were asked under oath..to 41 other presidents and YOU...you would be convicted for lying to the American public too!


Get off the anti-sex thing dude...it's getting ancient!

BN747
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TYSGoVols
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:51 pm

How do you personally know what I or the other 41 Presidents would do under oath. There is that whole swear to tell teh truth and nothing but the truth thing. If I make a statement like that trust me I would tell the truth. You do not know me, you do not know the other 41 Presidents that you speak of, nor have some of them been alive during your lifetime. You are making a blanket statement about something you have no clue about. The thing isn't the sex thing, he can be forgiven of that but, he LIED about it. It makes me wonder about what else he lied to us about and is still lying about.

<>< Garen
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cfalk
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:17 pm

France is o.k. with me...Germany too. At least they're not lying greedy scum bags like Bush & clan.

Hmmm... I see you have not been reading up on French politics. Chirac is as corrupt as they come, and the only reason he is not in jail is that a tame judge declared the president completely immune to prosecution as long as he is in office. He would have certainly lost the election last year had it not been for the far-right candidate who won the first round, and then he would have been tried and probably convicted for corruption. And the Iraqis have since uncovered plenty of evidence pointing to France's monetary reasons for wanting Saddam to stay in power.

As for Bush & Co., I have read a lot of accusations of corruption from partisan sources (and we heard the same for Clinton), but no actual evidence so far.

Charles
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zak
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 6:39 pm

" I guarantee you that America will become the new France."

whats the new france? care to elaborate? you do imply it would be something negative, hence i'd like to know in which regard france is so negative. thanks
10=2
 
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sebolino
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:30 pm

Chirac is as corrupt as they come

You have a bad definition of corruption. See the thread about French cars. Charles, you're lying one more time.



And the Iraqis have since uncovered plenty of evidence pointing to France's monetary reasons for wanting Saddam to stay in power.

LOL.
The huge benefits US companies will make in Afghanistan and Iraq with the oil are not worth speaking of ?
 
TYSGoVols
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:51 pm

If oil was so much of an issue with us American's, Why are we not raping those oil fields. The Russians seemed pretty eager to remind the rest of us they had oil contracts that they still want honored. Oh by teh way the U.S. produced more oil in 2000 than did Iraq, we also have importation agreements with Mexico, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and we produce quite a bit of our own. So why then would we need Iraqi oil? With the enrite world watching to see if we abuse the Iraqi's why would we so blatently take advantage of them?

<>< Garen
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PPGMD
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:14 am

1. Half that stuff is crap! Except for the Cruise missiles!

So we have ten weapon systems. If half of them were crap then that means that 5 of them didn't do what was expected of them.

B-1B: Carrys a greater warload than the B-52, farther, and faster, with a greatly reduced radar cross section.

AH-64: Fantastic helicopter, has meet or exceeded everything that was expected of it by the US Army.

Patriot: Though it did have a glitch in the software, but when it was rebooted on scheduled (as the techs were instructed to) it worked as advertised. It worked well enough that quite a few nations have ordered the missile system also.

Aegis System: The system has worked as advertised, don't see any issues with it, though it is getting upgrades with the times.

A/V-8B: Any issues with the airframe were known before the USMC purchased the aircraft since it's nothing more than an upgrade of the Bae design. But it has done it's job well giving the USMC some independence with it's fixed wing air wing.

F-15: Meet and has exceeded the expectations of the airframe, and is filling in the roll of the retired F-111 with the F-15E.

F-14 A/D: Though the A model was underpowered, it meet the objectives of the Navy.

Phoenix: Has meet it's objectives, and still meets them, not bad for a missile that is almost 40 years old. It is only being retired because it is no longer needed. The CBG is no longer significantly threatened by long-range bombers since the down fall of the USSR.

Sparrow: Developed in 1956 and has served well it was replaced but the AMRAAM. The model that Sen. Kerry voted against got 25 victories over Iraq during Operation Desert Storm.

All of the said weapon systems have served quite well over the years, though some have been replaced by newer weapon systems. None are what I would call crap.

3. My brother said when he went to Iraq on average each guy spend (from their own pockets) between $1200 - $1500 per man to replace items from GPS units,cold/hot weather gear to flak-vest to 'cover their own asses' since they were headed for combat!

Individuals buying a GPS for themselves is not uncommon, because not every aircraft, tank, or soldier is given a unit because they don't need it. If every soldier carried every piece of equipment that they would each need an ATV to carry it all. So the army only gives the military GPS to one soldier in the platoon, the UHF radio to another, et al.

Now about flak vests, that comes into play when the Army has to weigh the costs or protection versus the bottom line. Do soldiers in the rear need the same flak jackets as the 1st Special Operations Group or the Rangers? No they don't, because their chance of coming under fire is much less than the above. It's the same in the entire military, why do you think that C-5's, and most VIP transports don't have ECM?
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:56 am

I support John Kerry.
 
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:19 am

If we're talking about hypocritical, wasn't the US still supporting Saddam back in 1984?
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phxairfan
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:28 am

Zak: In referring to America as becoming the new France under Kerry. I am referring to the fact that France has not opposed and armed threat with any effort since World War II. If you want to point out the Indochina war, I'll point out the fact that the French lost and a little country called the United States came in and took their place. I am not trying to insult French culture but merely the weak stance on foreign affairs. There was a time when the French were not afraid to fight for what they knew was right. I understand that the French have an active role in Afghanistan, and there presence is appreciated. However the French are never the first in, and never the last to leave. They only come in when its time to mop up.
 
Goose
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:39 am

"Dude, Bush got his 87 billion to piss away in Iraq."

"(...) besides a thinner military is always better. how can anyone not support u.s. military spending cuts? they waste BILLIONS A DAY for nothing."


--

Exactly.

"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:35 am

The F-14 was screwed up from the start, no F-14 no need for the Phoenix

The B-1 was screwed up from the start as well, Carter killed it, Reagan saved it but some good it did. I think all B-1 squadrons are reserve these days and the B-1s will be rotting in the desert when the B-52 are just getting their second wind.

The Apache was designed for the forests of Europe. Read something other than propaganda, they have reliability issues in the sandbox.

Pretty stupid on the whole tomahawk thing, those are the only way Democrats know how to retaliate, using a $1million missile to blow up a $25 tent and hit a camel in the ass.

As for the new body armor, yeah the troops need it and should get it, its not our fault the last administration did not see fit to order enough of it. The company that makes the stuff is cranking it out as fast as they can but hey some of it was already in the civilian warehouses.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:06 am

The F-14 was screwed up from the start, no F-14 no need for the Phoenix

They are going to lose quite a bit of operational capability by the retirement of the F-14, but are going to save on maintenance costs over the aging F-14. The F-14D also had a much greater bomb carrying capacity than it's replacement.

The B-1 was screwed up from the start as well, Carter killed it, Reagan saved it but some good it did. I think all B-1 squadrons are reserve these days and the B-1s will be rotting in the desert when the B-52 are just getting their second wind.

Actually 3 B-1B squadrons are ACC (69 aircraft), with 2 ANG (22 aircraft). With a 2 at Edwards under AMC. The B-52 is only getting a second wind because it's cheaper due to an abundance of aircraft and spare parts, but it still is not a capable overall.

The Apache was designed for the forests of Europe. Read something other than propaganda, they have reliability issues in the sandbox.

Someone should really tell the Army, and the CENTAF. Every report I heard from the sandbox was that all the choppers did remarkably well in the Deserts. You can even see pictures of completely sand covered aircraft flying missions over there.
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MD-90
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:43 am

Any helicopter is going to have reliability issues in the sandbox.

Tom Clancy in his book on carrier air wings says that the F-14Ds are the single most valuable airframe on the deck of a carrier. They have capabilities even the Super Hornet can't match.

I likewise also think that the B-1B is an extremely capable bomber. More so, even, than the B-52.
 
zak
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:02 am

"I am referring to the fact that France has not opposed and armed threat with any effort since World War II."

is that why france had a massive nuclear arsenal and military to aid germany in case of a soviet invasion in the cold war?

"If you want to point out the Indochina war, I'll point out the fact that the French lost and a little country called the United States came in and took their place."

guess what, the little country called the united states came in and lost aswell. so gee not much of a difference there except the french had the brains to pull out before slaughtering of millions commenced

"I am not trying to insult French culture but merely the weak stance on foreign affairs. There was a time when the French were not afraid to fight for what they knew was right."

they still do, more actively then ever. examples would be the strong stance against the war on iraq, the french efforts in saving western citizens in various african countries and their peacekeeping and negotiation efforts in multiple parts of the world. "fighting" for whats right does not imply the active use of force, even though that seems to be the only way u.s. people can see it.


"I understand that the French have an active role in Afghanistan, and there presence is appreciated. However the French are never the first in, and never the last to leave."

except in those dozens of humanitarian missions in civil war torn areas that do not get much news coverage on the other side of the pond since its about people in bum f*ken africa anyway and there is no big propaganda rally around it.

"They only come in when its time to mop up."

mop up what? the ruins that american war mongering left behind due to the inability of any u.s. government of the past decades to look for solutions that do not include the active use of force but prefer the invasion on third world countries to leave behind just another mess?


it would be one of the greatest achievements by john kerry if the u.s. would indeed become the new france and focus on issues and pursue them determined but without the everpresent threat of military force instead of the *lets bomb another country that we cant find on the map" attitude employed by u.s. leaders of the past.


p.s.
that does include the holy cow of the dems billy klintoon
10=2
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:45 am

Individuals buying a GPS for themselves is not uncommon, because not every aircraft, tank, or soldier is given a unit because they don't need it. If every soldier carried every piece of equipment that they would each need an ATV to carry it all. So the army only gives the military GPS to one soldier in the platoon, the UHF radio to another, et al.

PPGMD..you dead wrong here..1st of all every single one of the troops over there went thru mock drills here in the US before deployment...it is here where they found out what works and what doesn't! When told all we can do is give you another of the same item....and hope it works! That wasn't good enuff for many. Even a trained mess cook has his own battle gear because moving between mess assignments he may be called on to help in a fire fight that can come from anywhere at any time. He doesn't carry pots and pans in his ruck sack!

Now about flak vests, that comes into play when the Army has to weigh the costs or protection versus the bottom line. Do soldiers in the rear need the same flak jackets as the 1st Special Operations Group or the Rangers? No they don't, because their chance of coming under fire is much less than the above.

Again...wrong! Where are you getting this stuff? The troops in the rear need equally as much protection as Special Ops...just tell that to the Maintenence Corp (motor pool guys) that Jessica Lynch was asssigned to when the made a wrong turn and got into a fire fight for their lives and lost! The rear guys are not always in one safe place..the word could come down that they are being rotated immediately..into a hot zone or close to it...and in Iraq these days....that's every square inch of the country! I'm sorry..but the Arm-chair G.I. Joe mindset will do nothing more than gaurantee a return in a body bag!

Stop playing this thing out in on a chess board level...the biggest problems for the ground troops starts with the civilian contractors who DO NOT have their interest a top the company's agenda...it's about 'the business of landing gov't contracts aka money'..that's a fact, whether you like it not.


BN747

"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
phxairfan
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:56 am

"is that why France had a massive nuclear arsenal and military to aid Germany in case of a soviet invasion in the cold war?"

But that was just it that was the cold war. It was every European country, and the U.S that provided funding to West Germany. Yes France had an active role in setting up defenses, but did the French oppose the USSR like the U.S did? The U.S had and still does have troops in Germany. Although they are no longer to Protect against the Soviets.

"they still do, more actively then ever. Examples would be the strong stance against the war on Iraq, the French efforts in saving western citizens in various African countries and their peacekeeping and negotiation efforts in multiple parts of the world. "fighting" for what's right does not imply the active use of force, even though that seems to be the only way US people can see it."

Yes the French have had a strong presence in Africa, but now it is the U.S that is stationing troops in Africa to help the government combat extremism. But, what about Haiti? Where was France in 1994? The UN passed all sorts of sanctions to allow Aristide to come back, but it was a 20,000 strong force of Americans that re-installed him. Why didn't France have a hand in this, its their former colony. Unless you want to argue it was originally Spanish back before 1697. Yes the French are there now, along with the U.S and once again I give them credit for that.
As far as Iraq is concerned can you honestly tell me that the French thought it was right to leave Saddam in power? Leave a man that murdered thousands of his own people because the were Kurds, or simply a different sect of Islam? I know were going to hear the argument about WMD and unless we find them, it is not a credible rationale. But the suspicion that they did have them only grew when they threw out the U.N weapons inspectors several time.

"except in those dozens of humanitarian missions in civil war torn areas that do not get much news coverage on the other side of the pond since its about people in bum f*ken Africa anyway and there is no big propaganda rally around it."

The humanitarian missions are admirable, but when has aid and influx of money stopped fighting? The only way to stop fighting is to get the two sides to sit down and talk about peace. When there are several thousand peacekeepers there, It makes a huge difference. This of course is not the sole responsibility of France. Its unreasonable to expect France to put troops wherever there is conflict, they just don't have the resources to do so. America has greater resources, so it much more common that we are dispatching the peace keepers. Unfortunately sometimes American peacekeeping forces are seen as invaders and are attacked. I don't consider when a nations government allows another nations troops to have a base within their borders and invasion. The French may have "dozens of humanitarian missions" in Africa, but they are not alone. http://www.usaid.gov/locations/sub-saharan_africa/

"mop up what? The ruins that American war mongering left behind due to the inability of any US government of the past decades to look for solutions that do not include the active use of force but prefer the invasion on third world countries to leave behind just another mess? "

I love the American caused ruins of Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, and Kosovo. Because when the U.S deployed to this countries, they just wanted to take them over and throw the entire country into chaos, steal their resources, and oppress their civilians. Most of the time the U.S militarily deploys to a country its to stop fighting, or keep peace. The ones where we invade are to remove a threat, or liberate a people. The U.S doesn't invade countries so we can take their natural resources and profit from it. If you believe that is our intention, where's all the money that should be coming back in? All I see is millions of U.S tax dollars flowing in. If you see money flowing back out, let me know.

"It would be one of the greatest achievements by john Kerry if the US would indeed become the new France and focus on issues and pursue them determined but without the everpresent threat of military force instead of the *lets bomb another country that we cant find on the map" attitude employed by US leaders of the past."

So we should all let John Kerry win the election, so our enemies can do whatever they want. We should let them terrorize the world, determine our policies, and let them choose our leaders. Unfortunately economic sanctions don't motivate someone to stop doing bad things as much as a rifle does.

Zak, I appreciate your comments as this is a forum for discussing our View/Opinions. If people didn't disagree about things there would be no concept of being an individual. Thank you for conducting this in a mature matter. We may not agree on things, but its nice that we are adult enough not to resort to attacking each other.
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:36 am

Actually 3 B-1B squadrons are ACC (69 aircraft), with 2 ANG (22 aircraft). With a 2 at Edwards under AMC. The B-52 is only getting a second wind because it's cheaper due to an abundance of aircraft and spare parts, but it still is not a capable overall.

And during Gulf I and Gulf II....that's exactly where most B-1s stayed...at their bases! A couple joined an armada of B-52's, which were doing the heavy work...dropping the bunker busters and the majority of bombs!


I can't begin to count how many Apaches have bit the dust..in the sand!


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:10 pm

I hope PPGMD watched Hardball w Chris Matthews tonight.....turns out Shoshanna Johnson (black female POW) who was wounded and captured along with Jessica Lynch....was a COOK!!! A deadly cook too..she managed to get off a few rounds before being captured! And remember...the only reason it all happened, was because they got lost...faulty GPS??? Most likely...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:13 pm

I hope PPGMD watched Hardball w Chris Matthews tonight.....turns out Shoshanna Johnson (black female POW) who was wounded and captured along with Jessica Lynch....was a COOK!!! A deadly cook too..

I believe the correct term is "chef" not "cook"  Big grin
 
PPGMD
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:43 am

And during Gulf I and Gulf II....that's exactly where most B-1s stayed...at their bases! A couple joined an armada of B-52's, which were doing the heavy work...dropping the bunker busters and the majority of bombs!

Actually the B-52 is incapable of dropping precision bombs. And during Operation Desert Storm their primary use was PsyOps being used to scare Iraqi units into surrendering by limited us to carpet bombing. Also at that time the Cold War wasn't quite over yet, and at the time the B-1B was the primary nuclear weapon delivery aircraft, and was bring held back by SAC. Also at that time I don't believe that the B-1B had been adapted to drop conventional weapons.

Since then the B-1B has undergone an upgrade program to enable it to drop the JDAM, which along with the B-2 are the only heavy bombers (but the B-1B can hold a B-52 worth of JDAMs, while the B-2 can only hold 16) to be able to drop precision weapons. But at that time due to the length of the flight (they would have UK or US based) there was no need to bring the B-1B when non-stealth local aircraft could handle it at the time. The B-52 on the other hand with it's ability to drop cruise missiles was useful because it didn't need to enter Iraqi airspace, so there was no risk to the aircraft.

I can't begin to count how many Apaches have bit the dust..in the sand!

There were only two downings of the AH-64 that I can remember during Operation Iraqi Freedom, none during Operation Desert Storm. And it's unit combat effectiveness was greater in Iraq during Desert Storm, than it was during US based exercises. The choppers did well in Iraq, and anyone that says otherwise, can't look at the facts.

turns out Shoshanna Johnson (black female POW) who was wounded and captured along with Jessica Lynch....was a COOK!!! A deadly cook too..she managed to get off a few rounds before being captured! And remember...the only reason it all happened, was because they got lost...faulty GPS

Yes, she was a Chef, but her unit was one of the few rear element units that ever got attacked. The Army can't afford to give every man, the best equipment. It's a zero sum game, if you take money, and buy Spec Ops quality armor for all the troops, you have to make a cut somewhere, they could be training, other equipment, or even troop pay.

And yes I have seen the reports, I think that the soldier that fought the bravest (I forget his man, he wore glasses), should have been seriously considered for the Congressional Medal of Honor.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Guest

RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:11 am

Yes, she was a Chef, but her unit was one of the few rear element units that ever got attacked.

I just meant she had potentially 2 ways of being deadly: her side-arm and her spatula  Big grin
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:15 am

Both of you..wrong again. The term is "COOk" ...check yesterdays USA Today article on her AND check MSNBC transcripts from yesterday's Hardball broadcast!...Go correct them. Secondly, it's obvious neither of you have been in the military...no service personnel goes around calling mess workers 'chef's'.  Insane

My brother's due in town for a visit Sat. I'll get back to you with details from the air campaign...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
PPGMD
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:29 am

Depends on the service, the mess food on USAF bases is quite good, it's not a first class restaurant, but certainly could complete with a Denny's or such. I hear the Navy makes some pretty good food on the ships too.

Calling her a Chef was more tongue in cheek, nor do I sweat the small stuff. In many cases I'm happy if they can identify the equipment or aircraft by the journalists.

I am also sure that your brother can provide us great insights, particularly when it can be filtered through you, since you are all knowledgeable about military aviation. *insert roll eyes smiley*
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Guest

RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:32 am

Lighten up, BN. A little humor won't kill you.

I was just happy to hear that the little chef was able to kick some butt.

Cool.
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:04 am


PPGMD instead of guess work..I'd rather speak with someone who was there (in both Gulf conflicts). Your Lounge-Chair General comment of 'troops in the rear don't need as much protective gear' arguement showed your true lack of understanding of the situation. So ANY input re:any WAR from you is suspect.

No Jeff I don't need to lighten up...I've seen your humor before and it hasn't
changed..it's still quite anemic. And both of you re-read your threads..your
attempts were clearly to 'correct' the term used ..'cook' (as you thought I
selected the term) but was proven to be the choice term of print andbroadcast
media. Perhaps that'll teach you not to be so quick on the draw next time...but
I doubt it.

*sanitized for your protection*

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Guest

RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:20 am

*sanitized for your protection*

Deja vu
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:51 am

Don't worry. The B-52's have relatively low time.... I'm sure they will be dropping bombs on kids for decades to come.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:01 am

RFLMAO...now that was a gut buster! Hilarious Dc10guy....that's totally M*A*S*H humor...simultaneously funny and sad. Hilariously delivered..but a tragic truth.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
go canada!
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:04 pm

"Remember the thrill we all had during the first Gulf War each time a Patriot missile shot down one of Saddam's Scuds? If the country had listened to John Kerry in 1984, all of Saddam's Scuds would have gotten through."

errm, the scuds did get through.The US took a success to be when it exploded near the scud, it did not stop the scuds.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
PPGMD
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:55 pm

errm, the scuds did get through.The US took a success to be when it exploded near the scud, it did not stop the scuds.

That's because there was an issue with the computer system that fired the Patriot, it developed a timing error if the computer was on for more than 24hrs at a clip. Simple solutions, reboot the computer every 24hrs, not every tech followed the directions.

The software issue has been fixed. And the system no longer needs to be rebooted.

Your Lounge-Chair General comment of 'troops in the rear don't need as much protective gear' arguement showed your true lack of understanding of the situation

I don't have my deleted comment, but I will paraphrase it for you. Apparently the brass at that puzzle palace in Washington, the Pentagon, agree with me, and as such during the budget crunch of the Clinton Administration, they had to cut corners. The thing to remember as I said earlier, it's a zero sum game, if you take millions of dollars and spend it on newer better body armor, you have to make a cut somewhere else.

The generals felt that they could make the cut with rear element units (something I agree with), so that the main fighting force can have better armor and weapons. It sucks, but as I mentioned in my deleted post, I wish we could afford the best for all of our troops. But with limited budgets cuts have to be made.

Also it's getting pretty hard for anyone to rip the military off anymore when it comes to things that they purchase. More and more, the military is awarding cost plus contracts (the company that they are purchasing from get the cost plus X percent profit), and require the company that they are contracting from have a integrated accounting system approved by the government.

Don't worry. The B-52's have relatively low time.... I'm sure they will be dropping bombs on kids for decades to come.

Too bad they are being removed from that role. Carpet bombing is no longer a viable military tactic, it simply pisses off the populous, and wastes ordnance. During Operation Desert Storm they used carpet bombing of military units as a PsyOps weapon, because it scared many of the other units into surrendering.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Guest

RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:04 am

How did Kerry vote on the simultaneous removal of BN747s sense of humor and the implantation of the steel rod in his butt?

lighten up, its just a message board
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:28 am

Start, here's how Kerry voted, to leave the sense of humor with me...and plant the steel rod up yours...with a spike! Twice! So who says he flipflops on the issues?

Also it's getting pretty hard for anyone to rip the military off anymore when it comes to things that they purchase. More and more, the military is awarding cost plus contracts (the company that they are purchasing from get the cost plus X percent profit), and require the company that they are contracting from have a integrated accounting system approved by the government.

PPGMD, you must be joking...Halliburton just got busted billing the for millions false billing of meals provided to our troops in Iraq! The 'investigation' is just getting underway! And if you think for a second that...that's the ONLY violation by a private company (let alone Halliburton) doing biz with military and the gov't as a whole..then you're as naive as they hope taxpayers remain!


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
PPGMD
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:16 am

you must be joking...Halliburton just got busted billing the for millions false billing of meals provided to our troops in Iraq! The 'investigation' is just getting underway!

The accounting system is not there to prevent fraud or mistakes (which do happen), but to allow auditors to be able to track them.

It still requires audits by the government, which the government does a rather good job of. Democrats investigating the shit out of Republicans, and Republicans doing the same out of Democrats. One of the few areas where partisanship is actually good.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:22 am

Democrats investigating the shit out of Republicans, and Republicans doing the same out of Democrats. One of the few areas where partisanship is actually good.


Now that...I agree wholeheartedly with!


But this...
It still requires audits by the government, which the government does a rather good job of.

I'm not convinced..nor am I looking to be. Because I think this area leaves a lot to be desired. The government has proven to do a good job of pissing away money..accounting for it? Perhaps. Wise procurements and purchases..very questionable...if it were a tightly run ship....the lobbyist would be out of business!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:13 am

Now comes news that Rumsfeld wants to close a slew of bases...according to him 'up 24% of current military bases are underutilized and can afford to be eliminated. USA Today pg 7A.

For those who like see this as diminishing military strength...here's your man to talk to...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:47 pm

I'll be those bases can be closed and the operations consolidated and save money without reducing effectiveness.

It's a well known fact that Congressmen LOVE military bases in their districts and will do almost ANYTHING to keep them, even when they could be closed.

That's how you get the head of NASA in TEXAS when they launch the rockets in Florida. Really smart...
 
PPGMD
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:08 am

Now comes news that Rumsfeld wants to close a slew of bases...according to him 'up 24% of current military bases are underutilized and can afford to be eliminated. USA Today pg 7A.

It's called saving money for other things, many military bases are underused since the end of the cold war, but the senators push like mad to keep them open to the point that they are often cost more to keep open than their usefulness to the military. They can use that money for other things.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
BN747
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comme

Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:43 am

Uh huh ..right..and it wasn't long ago that MD90 was clamoring on about how Clinton closed bases thus 'weakening' the military. But I can really see how this different...I really can.

In the interim..if you look at today's Yahoo News Briefs...here's what you'll see that backs up my arguement!

Soldiers in Iraq Buy Their Own Body Armor

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=us&cat=us_armed_forces

Check it and a few related links out. I'm all ears....

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
TYSGoVols
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RE: Kerry Pretty Hypocritical Re: Body Armor Comment

Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:57 am

So do police officers what's your point?

<>< Garen
Rocky Top You'll Always be home sweet home to me, Good ole' Rocky Top WOOOOO

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