ronen
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Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:45 pm

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=YZFTLU1XH3YZSCRBAE0CFEY?type=worldNews&storyID=4744209

just wonder what the Spanish would say if the Israeli army would shoot dead

19 throwing stones protesters.

I"m sure we would have seen Javier Solana (THE European Union foreign policy chief ) attacking the Israeli gov' from every media.


 
racko
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protes

Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:49 pm

This could be the final reason for the Spanish to pull their troops from Iraq.
 
L-188
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:51 pm

There are two reasons for these protests.

One is the false reporting that the Spanish Troops arrested that Sheiks number #2 man.

The other is that Spain since the 3/11 bombings and the subsequent election is viewed as a target that is soft, and will moved if pressed long enough.

I suspect that these protests are being orgainized by a 3rd party (Al-quiche???) to apply pressure on Spain to pull it's troops from the vital peacekeeping mission they are performing.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
tbar220
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:18 am

A lot of the fire from the protests came from banned Iraqi militia as shown in the article, so the troops were right to return fire. But of course, there will be no criticism at all for the deaths of the civilians, as in the outrage we see whenever something like this happens in Israel. A real double standard, but I guess its something to get used to.
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ronen
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:08 am

So I guess the u.n will not send a committee to investigate the "massacre of

Nagaf"??


and no Arab state will suggest to condemn Spain in the u.n ??
 
rjpieces
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protes

Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:37 am

Good thread.....Let's wait to hear the Israel haters excuses!  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:19 am

I do not like what Israel does againt Palestinians. But why do i allways hear people say that "you must hate jews!"? It must be possible to discuss Israel without connecting it to antisemitism...
 
ronen
Posts: 314
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:25 am

So bofredrik do you like what you fellow Europeans are doing in Iraq?

when you are the victim of a constant double standard you start to ask yourself why.

we always hear from Europe why can't you manage your difference with the Palestinians as if we deal with a border question between Holland and Belgium.

so please answer why did the Spanish didn't sort their problems with the Iraqis?

why is there a European occupation force in Iraq??



[Edited 2004-04-04 21:34:18]
 
racko
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protes

Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:43 am

Uhm, since when was the majority of the European people in favor of the Iraq war ?
 
david b.
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:51 am

The Europeans do not support Iraq. The governments do, however and that is the problem. We saw in Spain, during the elections what can happen in if the government goes against the people's feelings.

Good thread.....Let's wait to hear the Israel haters excuses

Lets hear from the Iraqi haters pieces.

we always hear from Europe why can't you manage your difference with the Palestinians as if we deal with a border question between Holland and Belgium.

so please answer why did the Spanish didn't sort their problems with the Iraqis?

why is there a European occupation force in Iraq??


WHy can't you?

What problems with Iraqis?


why is there a Israeli occupation force in Palestine?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
ronen
Posts: 314
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:53 am

But Spain and the U.K are members of the European union. And soon Poland.

suppose Spain would decide to establish a death penalty.

would it hear something about it from the union?

would it be allowed to remain a part of the union? Did you ever voted about the death penalty in Europe?

like it or not the union has a foreign policy .(whether or not its citizens voted
about it)
 
petertenthije
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:38 am

The Union has not got a singular foreign policy. Foreign policy is still handled at state level. Some of the larger nations may want to change it, but at the moment that change has still not been made and it looks very unlikely it will be made anytime soon.
Attamottamotta!
 
ronen
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:54 am

"The Union has not got a singular foreign policy "

oh so this is how the European union manage to lecture Israel about the evil occupation while having European occupations forces in Iraq.

how clever.
 
Klaus
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Ronen

Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:08 am

Ronen: suppose Spain would decide to establish a death penalty.
would it hear something about it from the union?


Definitely. The death penalty is banned in the EU and would violate the respective treaties and - when ratified - the European Constitution.

A country trying to establish the death penalty would surely be sued at the European Court for Human Rights and would just as surely be forced to either revoke the death penalty or leave the union.

There´s no wiggle room whatsoever.
 
ronen
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:18 am

Klaus

the point that I was trying to make (for racko)is that a non action is just as strong as an action.

while there are European union members soldiers in Iraq (and rightfully so ) the occupation of Iraq is the European foreign policy and this will remain the case until-

A. The U.K and Spain is out of the union.

B. The last British and Spanish soldier leaves Iraq.
 
Klaus
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Ronen

Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:44 am

RONEN: the point that I was trying to make (for racko)is that a non action is just as strong as an action.

Huh? What do you mean by that?

RONEN: while there are European union members soldiers in Iraq (and rightfully so ) the occupation of Iraq is the European foreign policy and this will remain the case until-
A. The U.K and Spain is out of the union.
B. The last British and Spanish soldier leaves Iraq.


This is a completely different kind of problem.

British and spanish troops are part of an invasion army (insofar similar to the israeli case) against the wishes of the population.

The primary point about the legality (or, failing that, about the justifiability) is if the invasion was either covered by international law (it wasn´t - no direct threat, no authorization by the UNSC) or was at least immediately necessary on moral grounds (difficult to see when all the other cruel regimes still remain safe and un-invaded).

There is no binding european military policy at this time, so neither Spain nor Britain will have to fear official repercussions within the union - if there will be consequences, they´ll be delivered through
a) the electorate (as observed in Spain) and/or
b) the international institutions charged with upholding the rule of international law (the UN and the ICC, for instance).

That both the USA and Israel are happily violating international law without remorse up to now may not be a viable strategy for the long run...

Using the excuse of "Iraq having violated UNSC resolutions" for the invasion has further strengthened the case for the rule of international law, even if the exact opposite had been intended. Irony of ironies...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Krushny
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:55 pm

19 throwing stones protesters

Ronen, Ronen, using an Spanish expression, you are trying to bring the water to your mill...
According to the Army version, in the demonstration there were members of a radical Shiite militia who were armed (with guns and grenade throwers, not stones), opened fire and were responded appropiately due to engagement rules. Apart from that, these "demonstrators" were confronted not only by the Spanish troops, there was significant US presence with Apache helis and armored vehicles. Two soldiers were killed, one USA and one Salvadorean. So you should ask explanations about this incident not only to Spain.

why is there a European occupation force in Iraq??
double standards

There is no "European" occupation force in Iraq per se, it is a coalition which includes forces from several European as well as Asian and American countries. The EU has no voice here, some countries support the occupation and some do not. And before talking of double standards, take this into consideration :
- the coalition forces do not intend to remain in Iraq forever.
- the coalition forces are not protecting Western settlers.
- the coalition does not intend to annex Iraqi territories .
...

The other is that Spain since the 3/11 bombings and the subsequent election is viewed as a target that is soft, and will moved if pressed long enough.
I suspect that these protests are being orgainized by a 3rd party (Al-quiche???) to apply pressure on Spain to pull it's troops from the vital peacekeeping mission they are performing.


L-188, AlQaeda organising a prostest by Shiites ??? Wrong suspicion. There are enough loose scorpions in Iraq to blame all trouble to one party...
 
L-188
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RE: Least 19 Dead As Coalition Fights Iraqi Protesters

Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:03 pm

Don't laugh Krushny.

Although I agree there are plenty of rouge scorpions out there, it would serve their aims of totally screwing with the US, to inflame the situation in Iraq.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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