rjpieces
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What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:40 pm

Good evening everyone............I was wondering, what exactly will happen when Israel pulls out of Gaza in the coming months? Is there a solid plan yet?

Will the Palestinians create a state or will a civil war erupt and the hatred/"war" against Israel continue?

Thoughts.....?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
diamond
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:00 pm

When Israel pulls out Hamas will assume control. Perhaps Israel should have done this years ago when there wasn't so much of a vacuum to fill.

Imagine this happening at the same time that the US leaves Iraq in a mess. Half of Iraq's governing council has either left or is contemplating leaving.

Blank.
 
artsyman
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:40 pm

Israel could vacate the entire area, and there would still be arabs chasing them all over the world trying to blow them up. Arafat was bombing in Israel long before Curfews and road blocks started.

J
 
Bofredrik
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:54 pm

The "war" will continue against Israel and i can understand them. Sharon is far more worse than Saddam ever was. I support the palestinians. We can also ask ourself why USA want to install "democracy" in Iraq BUT support Saudiarabia, a non-democratic old-style ruled kingdom since many years...???
 
tbar220
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:24 pm

I don't really care to know what happens in Gaza once Israel pulls out. It should no longer be Israel's responsibility to babysit the Palestinians and provide them the infrastructure that they do in the area.

If terrorism continues to originate out of Gaza after the withdrawal, the Israeli government has threatened that it would cut off water and electricity to the Palestinians in Gaza (which it currently does) and stop supporting their infrastructure. The Palestinians get a hell of a lot more support from Israel than they do their Arab "brothers". I think Gaza is just going to deteriorate once Israel leaves.
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Alessandro
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:26 pm

Funny isn´t it, the Gaza should belong to Egypt like it did before 1967 and Egypt should be responsible for the people there....
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Horus
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:52 pm

Rjpieces, I can assure you there won't be any civil war. Yes, there are problems and differences (as in every nation) but there are bigger more important issues than anything that can start an internal war.

Artsyman, Israel and jewish forces have been attacking Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) even before the zionist state was forcefully establised in 1948. And for the last 56 years the massacres have continued.

Tbar220, No one asked the jewish state to occupy foreign land and claim its ownership over it. And as for occupation of Gaza and West Bank, how can you call it babysitting.
Jesus, if Israel was a babysitter...the horrific scenes of murder, mutilation and torture that parents would have back too. How can you say something like that

Alexandro, The Palestinians are there own people, and they should rul over themselves.

Bofredrick, its good to see someone who sees the issue as it really is  Big thumbs up
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:39 pm

Sharon is far more worse than Saddam ever was.

Another soul who has swallowed the PR of Hamas and the terrorists. Saddam and Sharon DON'T EVEN COMPARE. Saddam murdered thousands of his own people, started two wars-one estimated costing the two sides a million lives.

Sharon is no saint, and he's done some dumb things, but he's been fighting against an enemy that, no matter what Israel does, wants them destroyed, and will not, despite the utopian crowd in the world, stop attacking Israel even if a Palestinian state is created.

I support the palestinians.

Too vague, my friend. Do you support the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, and their right to live and determine their own future? Or do you support the murdering scumbags who blow up themselves and innocent Israeli's? I support the former-the right of those people to determine their own destiny. I do not support the terrorists. And the Palestinian people, if they're ever going to get a state, needs to start separating themselves from the action of these genocidal murderes like Hamas and Hezbollah.

So what is it, Bofredrick? Do you support the PEOPLE, or do you support the terrorists? Be very careful how you answer, friend.

And for the last 56 years the massacres have continued.

And what about the terrorists, Horus? Again, no mention of the suicide bombers, who blow up civilians. Not a peep, again from you? Typical of Arabs. Sorry if that's a stereotype, but you beg for it in this one, friend.

So, what happens, Horus, when Gaza is abandoned? Is peace given a chance? Or do you still support the murder of Israeli citizens, as you do now? And what happens, in your view, if a Palestinian state IS formed? Do you support peace with Israel, or will you continue to call for it's destruction?

By the way, have you sent flowers to Yassin's family lately? (dripping with sarcasm)
 
aviationmaster
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:06 pm

What happens if Israel pulls out? Good question to which I don't know the answer to. I doubt there would be peace, because of the huge amount of people with views like the one of a fellow forum members, peace probably will never be given a chance. It will only come to an end when the fingerpointing stops and both sides accept their erros (something thats lightyears away). Really sad, but thats the way I see it. An option and a good start would be by educating the whole region.

Oh and before I forget, Sharon and Saddam, no no, they don't compare my friend. Open your eyes porfavor!
 
avi
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:07 pm

Bofredrik: Sharon is far more worse than Saddam ever was.

Are you enjoying yourself when you show everybody your ignorance?
Saddam is responsible for the death of well over 1,000,000 people, many of them Iraqis whom he ordered to kill.
Sharon doesn’t get to his foots.

Rjpieces,
Your guess is as good as anyone else. There will be a fight for controlling the strip and the question is how violent will it be (if it be) but this is not the big problem.
When Israel will leave the GS, Palestinians won’t be allowed anymore to enter Israel (for work or anything else). The Erez industrial zone in the north of the strip will be close too and, of course, there will be no more jobs in the settlements (although most of them are already lost). Those who work in Israel are actually supporting the entire strip. Most of the Palestinian won’t have a job and the only way they will have to go is Egypt and you can be sure that it doesn’t make Mubarak (Egyptian president) very happy.
If Arafat was doing what he was suppose to do when he came to the strip in 94’, it could have been different but he simply betrayed his own people.

As already said, Israel will continue to supply electric power and water but if the Palestinians won’t control themselves, then who knows?
I don’t think there is a detailed plan for the withdrawal yet and it all depends with what Sharon will return from Bush latter this week.

Anyway I don’t see this withdraw taking place in the near future.

Long live the B747
 
solarix
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:26 pm

Sharon is far more worse than Saddam ever was.

Please elaborate how Sharon is worse than Saddam. I would like to see actual facts explaining how Sharon was worse than Saddam --- not just a bunch of hot air coming from Sweden. Sharon is far from perfect, but saying he is worse than Saddam is like saying Martin Luther King was the leader of the KKK.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
qr332
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:50 pm

I don't mind elaborating on Sharon's crimes - i'm a Palestinian expat myself.

Saddam and Sharon are two different things, but I can tell you Sharon is one of the biggest war criminals alive today. Look up the Sabra and Shattila massacres that have happened in '82, and that is more than enough. He was responsible for sealing of the area while a Chrisitian Lebenese faction (cant recall the name) killed, raped and mamed over 2000 civilians in the camps. His recent crimes in the West Bank & Gaza are bad enough, dont forget that it is the Palestinians being occupied by the Israeli army, not the Palestinians occupying the Israelis.

@Alpha 1: Typical Arabs? LOL! This is a typical IGNORANT comment, and because I am not one to sterotype I will not make a comment like yours, but did you forget the amount of Palestinians who were made refugees in 1948? I am ready to give you a list of massacres now, look up the following: Deir Yassin, Sabra and Shatilla, and Qana. These three are only some of the dozens of massacres. The suicide bombers might be killing civilians, but the Israeli Army is killing many more.

And for your sarcastic comment - had I had the chance I would have sent Yassin the flowers.

One last thing - Horus never called for the destruction of Israel and neither do I, I would love to see peace and be able to visit my homeland, not possible is it? I wouldn't be allowed in.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:06 am

I don't mind elaborating on Sharon's crimes - i'm a Palestinian expat myself.

I'd like for once, to see an Arab elaborate on the crimes of people like Arafat, Yassin, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, who, if not for them, peace MIGHT have a chance in hell some day.

but I can tell you Sharon is one of the biggest war criminals alive today.

Yaaawn.

@Alpha 1: Typical Arabs? LOL! This is a typical IGNORANT comment

Actually, it fits the reality. Arabs screamed bloody murder when a bloody murderer like Yassin was, thankfully, taken down. Yet not a peep come from Arabs when a few dozen Jews are blown up, who are doing nothing but going about their lives as best they can.

And for your sarcastic comment - had I had the chance I would have sent Yassin the flowers.

Then I stand by my comment-typical Arabs. You mourn for a murderer like Yassin, who's sole goal is destroying a nation, and yet you make not a peep when it comes to the deaths of a single Jew.

Yes. Typical Arab. Don't like it. Too bad. Until Arabs finally get smart-and after 50 years of this nonsense against Israel, it looks like your people will NEVER get smart on this account, and turn away from terror and violence, your people will never be accepted by the world.
 
N6376M
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:12 am

Someone please answer me this. Who is Israel supposed to negotiate with? Hezbollah, the PLO, Hamas, etc . . . Why should they negotiate with anyone of these organizations if the counterparty isn't empowered to deliver anything?

-76M
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:14 am

Good point, N6376m. Hey, we agree on something.  Big thumbs up

Again, until the Palestinains, and the entire Arab world shows a willingness to turn from terror-and NOT lay flowers on graves of assholes like Yassin, but instead lay piles of shit on top of his grave, and the graves of all terrorists, nothing will be accomplished.
 
qr332
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:29 am

Arabs have to get smart even though there the ones being occupied? If your willing to give up your home and the US to foreigners I say there's something wrong with you but I damn right am not prepared to give up Palestine. Did you read anything I wrote? Look at your ignorance - I give you the evidence you discard it. Since your so sure of these peoples crimes please tell us, im very interested to hear about them.

Alpha1 Wrote:Then I stand by my comment-typical Arabs. You mourn for a murderer like Yassin, who's sole goal is destroying a nation, and yet you make not a peep when it comes to the deaths of a single Jew.

Not a peep? What about the US media which gives you a documentary on the life of a Jew that has died but when a dozen Palestinians die its only written in the newsbar at the bottom.

Terror and Violence? Because we use suicide bombs while Israel use F-16s, Apaches, Tanks, Soldiers and god knows what else? As I mentioned before, we are the ones being occupied, about 5 times more Palestinians have died than Israelis, if not more.

What the hell do you know about Yassin? What you have heard - a murderer, hates this hates that, wants them to die, if Sharon died now look at how many mourners would come, hes a criminal whether you like it or not. Again, learn to read, evidence above, not enough i'll be glad to give you more.

Alpha1 Wrote: I'd like for once, to see an Arab elaborate on the crimes of people like Arafat, Yassin, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, who, if not for them, peace MIGHT have a chance in hell some day.

Yep, Arab terrorists, Islamic fanatics, so on. Israelis are defending themselves by killing children women and men, and they are just defending their security. Homes and people can be sacrificed for them, no problem. What the hell? Genocide for their security too. (Also dripping with sarcasam)

A final word - I have completley expressed myself without attacking you personally or attacking the US people but you seem to be hell-bent on doing so, please try to answer like a normal civilized person
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
N6376M
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:17 am

QR332 -

I think you are speaking from an uniformed position. Israel's heavy handed treatment of the people in the occupied territories are almost a nightly news item. The characterization that the death of a palestinian is a newsbar at the bottom of the page is just incorrect.

Now I will tell you that the same news cast that report the Israeli actions also carried pictures of Palestinians dancing in the street on Sept 11. Can you imagine the sort of hatred such pictures creates in the US toward the palestinians? Granted, it is always wrong to characterize an entire group of people based on the actions of a few, but as I've said in the past on other threads, the biggest public relation problem the palestinian movement has in the US is the absolute silence of its main stream members to publicly and actively not just condem terrorism but to take steps to root it out.

Until that is done, the palestinian people (as a group) will be view as at least tacit supporters of terrorism. As long as that impression remains, the US cannot get behind the palestinian cause because any politician that does so, would be labeled as a supporter of terrorism.

IMO the best move the palestinian movement ever did was to adopt a peaceful strategy during the early to mid-1990's. By rejecting the acts of terrorism, it gained world support and made Israel look like the bad guy. While the pace of change was slow, the movement was making headway. However the rise of the infatada (I'm not sure I spelled that correctly but no offense was intended) immediately gave Israel the argument that there was no room to negotiate with terrorist.

As terrorism rises globally and affects more and more nations, I think we will see a strong backlash against palestinians and by association, the corrupt elements within the Arab world that seek to hide behind the palestinian cause not because they support the palestinian people or the notion of Jerusalem as a holy city within the Muslim religion, but because of their hatred of the Jews. Note that I clearly realize that most Muslims do not believe that the Jews need to be destroyed but the ones who seem to speak the loudest certainly do.

These are just my observations as someone who has a greater than average interest in the geopolitical situation of the region. I look forward to your comments.

-76M
 
N6376M
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:19 am

Alpha1,

You and I agree on a whole lot more than either one of us would like to admit. Though there are certain positions you take that drive me crazy, I've always respected your position and your right to hold those beliefs (no matter how wrong they are  Big grin).

-76M
 
rjpieces
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:37 am

Don't forget that more Palestinians have been killed by fellow Arab countries than by Israel!

"Rjpieces, I can assure you there won't be any civil war. Yes, there are problems and differences (as in every nation) but there are bigger more important issues than anything that can start an internal war."

Based on what are you assuring me? All signs point to Hamas rising in power, and they are not the ones the US and Israel will be negotiating with.

Before Horus starts listing his "figures", to get back to the original question.....Why doesn't Egypt take responsibility for some of the Gaza Strip as they always seem to care most about the Palestinian situation and not about their own.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
qr332
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:45 am

N6376m,
I see your point of view on this but Alpha1's responses really pissed me off, it is a huge steretype. The pictures of Palestinians dancing in the streets was a very bad image and I watched it myself on CNN, but just to clarify something, these celebrations were very localized, and the Palestinians actually held on September 12th in all their schools 5 minutes of silence for the Americans killed in Sept. 11th.

I see what you mean by giving hatred, but think about WHY they hate the Americans and where celebrating. All of Israelis weapons are American, and America gives Israel huge amounts of money and lots of support, and this causes a lot of hatred. This is definatley not a justification of the celebrations, I am just clarifying where they stand on this point.

I for one support resistance as long as the Israeli army is inside Palestinian lands, but if there was a peacful solution and the Israelis did actually withdraw then I would support peace by all means. I do not wish to see every Israeli dead or see the entire nation destroyed, what I wish to see is peace and an end to this conflict, and to see the Palestinians and Israelis living side by side equally and peacfully. There are many reasons the Palestinians hate the Israelis and you cant blame us - homes being destroyed, bombings, innocent civilians being shot, and many more things. This has to stop, and it is not fair to put all the blame on the different factions.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
qr332
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:50 am

Rjpieces - missed your post. Can you clarify on your point? More Palestinians killed by fellow Arab countires :S

Egypt has no responsibility for the Gaza Strip, and has had none since 1967. They have nothing to do with this conflict and dont see how they can help.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Horus
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:14 am

Alpha1, Ariel Sharon is worse than Saddam. He has one of the worst track records of a 'leader'. Just once condemn this 'man' (if you can even call him that). Israel and Jewish forces have been responsible for deaths of thousand of Palestinians and other acts of terrorism since the late 1800s. Do I ever hear you say anything about them? No.
I can give you an extended list of all jewish people and the brutal acts of terrorism they have commited if you'd like.
You seem to attack Palestinian groups that have only been around of a 'short' period, yet you hardly mention or attack the jewish people who commited attrocites against the Palestinians that lead to the formation of such groups.


N6376m, Jesus! stop bringing up that CNN clip of Palestinians dancing because of 9/11. It was proven that the clip was taken 3 years before the actual event. And because I know you will dismiss this piece of infomation as an 'Arab lie', this was actually debated and proven and a programme was shown of this in the UK on the BBC last year.

Why do you not call massacres conducted by Jewish forces against Palestinians as terrorism. It is this hypocrisy and double standards that is unbelieveable. You attack Iraq because they have violated UN resolutions yet the zionist state that has violated many more remain the US's staunchest alley is Israel.

Also Arabs are not hiding behind the Palestinian cause to vent out their hatred of jews. Its comments like these that just go to show how little you know on the subject. If any other people, whether Christians, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddists, Germans, Chileans, Australians or even another fellow Arab state had attacked and occupied Palestine and commited these dispicable acts of terrorism against Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) then the same uproar would have happened.



QR332, Ahlan Beek! Big grin
In my short time in this forum I have noticed that people seem to attack the Palestinians as well as Arabs based on lack of understanding. Sometimes you can supply them with statistics, numbers, dates, places, names, details, accounts, official sources (many given by independant international bodies like the Red Cross) yet some members would simply like to ignore them, deny them or dismiss them as Arab propaganda without even giving a reasonable argument.
Anyway I hope you have a good time in this forum!
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
ly772
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:28 am

All I know is that in a year and a half I'll be in the army and I'll be happy to be somewhere near Gaza...
 
avi
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:39 am

Rjpieces: Why doesn't Egypt take responsibility for some of the Gaza Strip as they always seem to care most about the Palestinian situation and not about their own.

You can take a step back and ask: why didn’t Egypt demand the GS back when they made peace with Israel in 1979?

The answer is: THEY WERE SMART.
The GS is a problem, why should they have it?

On an area smaller than 1 square kilometer with 5 starts hotel and beautiful coast they "fought" for almost 10 years, but to take the GS? Why?

The Israeli-Arabs are also support the Palestinians. Some of them even take suicide bombers to their destination or hide them inside Israel, but when there was an idea of land changing, which means Israeli-Arabs will continue to leave where they are but under a Palestinian state (and some settlements will remain where they are under Israeli rule), they went nuts. They said no way and I guess they know why. To support the Palestinians is one thing and to be one is probably something else.

QR332: Rjpieces - missed your post. Can you clarify on your point? More Palestinians killed by fellow Arab countires

Here is just one example. On September 1970 the Jordanian army killed 10,000 Palestinians in just few days (after they hijacked and blew up 3 aircrafts in Jordan).
Long live the B747
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:54 am

N6376m, Jesus! stop bringing up that CNN clip of Palestinians dancing because of 9/11. It was proven that the clip was taken 3 years before the actual event. And because I know you will dismiss this piece of infomation as an 'Arab lie', this was actually debated and proven and a programme was shown of this in the UK on the BBC last year

Source, please? Show us conclusive proof and I'll believe you.

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
qr332
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:56 am

Avi - what is your source exactly, this seems to be something I havent heard about before.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
N6376M
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:57 am

Horus, first of all for you to use the word "Jesus!" in the manner in which you did is exteremely offensive to me. If there ever is going to be a solution to these issues, we must find a common ground of respect. How would you like it if I evoked Mohammad or Allah to emphasize a point? We can disagree without becoming disagreeable.

Secondly, I'm sorry but I am not aware of what you are mentioning about the CNN clip. Please post a link to a independent third party source and I'll gladly retract my statement. Your recollection of a unspecified BBC report just isn't enough for me. Facts not speculation please.

Furthermore, I'm not here defending Israel. If you've regularly read previous posts, I've clearly condemned Israel for its involvment in this matter. However, neither side is blameless in this conflict. There is a cycle of violence that needs to be broken.

Dr. MLK stated:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. You may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. You may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate, nor establish love. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?"
1967

Does sending a 10 year old boy over the border with explosives strapped to his chest break the cycle?

Finally, we'll have to disagree with on the matter of the arabs hiding behind the Palestinians. I believe that the evidence for this is convincing. Does any Arab country in the Middle East allow the Palestinians free access? Does any Arab country openly and regularly condemn the acts of the radical terrorist groups or do they regularly collect and forward money to these organizations? In what year did the Arab league recognize Israel's right to exist? In what year did they officially rescind their call for the destruction of the State of Israel? And nobody has yet answered my question of Reply 13.

"Someone please answer me this. Who is Israel supposed to negotiate with? Hezbollah, the PLO, Hamas, etc . . . Why should they negotiate with anyone of these organizations if the counterparty isn't empowered to deliver anything? "
 
rjpieces
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:20 am

"Also Arabs are not hiding behind the Palestinian cause to vent out their hatred of jews. Its comments like these that just go to show how little you know on the subject. If any other people, whether Christians, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddists, Germans, Chileans, Australians or even another fellow Arab state had attacked and occupied Palestine and commited these dispicable acts of terrorism against Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) then the same uproar would have happened."

Nobody said that. What they said, and what is true, is that Arab counries hide behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and use that as an excuse for the sad state of their countries. Who is always the easy target to blame, the Jews. Funny how history repeats itself.

" Why do you not call massacres conducted by Jewish forces against Palestinians as terrorism. It is this hypocrisy and double standards that is unbelieveable. You attack Iraq because they have violated UN resolutions yet the zionist state that has violated many more remain the US's staunchest alley is Israel."

Israel defending itself is not terrorism! Perhaps you should redefine your defintion of terrorism, a country attacking groups that wish to destory it is not terrorism. The United States invading Iraq is not terrorism. Surely if you consider Israel terrorists, you must feel the same way about most other Western countries. And about the UN....the fact that Israel violates UN resolutions is nothing. The UN has always been known as an anti-semitic organization, bashing Israel at every opportunity. How can you even compare Iraq to Israel in terms of relations with the US? Israel is one of the bestest friends of the US in the world, Iraq was run by a dictator bent on destroying Israel and who knows what else.

From a post by GoCanada in another thread, "Israels refugges(within 1967 borders) have hosues and job.Palestinian refugges ina rab countries do not.Kept in squalor as a tool to bash the jews with.When the arabs kicked their jewish populatiosn out Israel gave help to the regugges, Arab countries havent done that.In fact kuwait enthcially cleansesd 400000 palestinians in 1991/2 while Jordan managed to kill 20000 during its civil war, a figure higher than israel in the space of 50 years."

Horus, I'm STILL waiting for you to answer some of the questions thrown your way......What's the deal?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Horus
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:35 am

N63676m, sorry if you thought using the expression 'jesus' was not suitbale, but it is a commonly used expression when one is bewildered. I can assure you no offense was intended. Note: Muslims love and respect Jesus as he was one of Islam's Prophets, Isa PBUH.

About the programme on the BBC, I will have to look through there webiste, but as I said it was on a programme early last year.

My point, is that your condemnation of Israel and acts of terrorism commited by jewish forces before and after the establishment of the state are much weaker than those aimed at Palestine and Palestinians.

I absolutely 100% agree with MLK'S statement, and in an ideal world it would work. But unfortuantely in the situation in Palestine it will be hard to achieve. Israel and her forces have been systematically terrorised the Palestinian people (Muslims and Christians). Remember last year when your government tried (and failed) to launch the so-called Road Map. A ceasefire was negotiated as a crucial step for the 'peace process'. For 51 days Palestinian groups such as Hamas abided by the agreement and halted attacks. At the same period Israel continued with its incursions, its targetted killings, its massacres, its land land grab. As a result the ceasefire collapsed. You honestly cannot expect Palestinians to sit around while these injustices happen to them, for the sake of this made-up peace. No one in their right mind will watch their families killed, watch their land being stolen, watch the very essence of normal life being dragged through the mud, without taking action to defend themselves. It's called ones right to survive and self-determination.


As for Arab nations, all of them accepted Palestinian refugees. The best examples are Lebanon and Jordan. In the latter country over 50% of the population are Palestinians! The reason that many more Palestinians haven't seeked refuge in the Arab world is simply because they are a strong, united and self-determined people, who know what is rightfully theirs and they won't give it up whether it is for Bush, Sharon, Blair, Arafat, or Mubarak. Does the US regularly and openly condemn Israeli terrorism? No, instead they happily give them billions of dollars in loans AND GRANTS and help them to keep growing their military to fight a people who have no real resistance. Does Israel recognise the homes of the Palestinians that they have been occupying since 1948? As long as zionists continue to have the dream of Greater Eretz Israel, Palestinians will continue to be attacked but they will fight back.

To answer your question it was Hamas that abided by your country's peace plan last year during the cease-fire and Israel that went against it. It is Israel that has illegal jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza that your government told them to do dismantle but they haven't. As for Hezbollah, they we're fighting off occuping forces off their land.
And are you asking the Palestinians to negotiate with a person, Ariel Sharon, who is wanted by the International Court of Justice for crimes against humanity?

If tomorrow some occuping force attacked the US, established a nation there, then killed, tortured, exiled and massacred American citizens and you fought back, would you consider yourself a terrorist? Would you want to negotiate with the invaders on what portion of YOUR land you can take back? No. I didn't think so


RJpieces, Palestinians defending themselves is not terrorism! Perhaps you should redefine your defintion of terrorism, a group attacking a country that wishes to destory a people is not terrorism

[Edited 2004-04-13 20:38:06]
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
avi
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:58 am

QR332:Avi - what is your source exactly, this seems to be something I havent heard about before.

You never heard of Black September? As I said, after the Palestinians hijacked 3 aircrafts to Jordan (and another one to Egypt) and destroyed them, the king felt he had to do something with them and thousands of Palestinians were killed (then they moved from Jordan to Lebanon). Search the net, I’m sure you will find lots of stuff about it.

Horus: A ceasefire was negotiated as a crucial step for the 'peace process'. For 51 days Palestinian groups such as Hamas abided by the agreement and halted attacks.

BS. Israelis kept being murder during this time (and you don’t understand why Israel kept intercept Palestinian terrorists during this time) and the "cease fire" ended with 23 dead in a Jerusalem’s bus, many of them children (and I guess this not a terror attack according to you).

Long live the B747
 
Horus
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:44 am

Avi, The EU praised the Palestinians for their work towards the peace during the 51 day cease-fire, so it's ridiculous to try and point the finger at the Palestinians when jewish forces were terrorising Palestinians. But one gets used to hearing distorted versions of the truth. The suicde bombing killed 23, but do you know how many Palestinians died during those 51 days? No. 46 Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) many of them chirldren, women and elderly were among those murdered, 312 were injured and taken to hospitals, 53 homes were destroyed, 186 were arrested by the terror IDF to be taken to interrogation/terror camps, even more land was stolen and more road blocks were put up, but I guess all these are not terror attacks according to you.
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
avi
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:57 am

Horus:Avi, The EU...

You said the EU, you said it all  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

By the way, the 23 dead I mention were killed in a single attack, there were others during that time.
Long live the B747
 
qr332
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:07 am

Avi, I asked about Black September and sadly it is true, and I will openly admit that both the Jordanians and Palestinians are mistaken here, but to say that Arabs killed more Palestinians than Israelis is just too much. Not sure about the deaths being as high as 10,000 though. Avi, read Horus's post, it states enough up there about the killings, arrests and destruction of homes. And many of the people that are in Israeli prisons now are actually innocent, dont forget Israel is the only country where torture is legal. 23 dead in a single attack? How many Palestinians are killed daily, even today? Doubt you would hear much about it though... I have heard many stories from people visiting the West Bank about what the Israeli settlers do there, one mentioned that there was a settler in a Mercedes going around skidding all over the place in Jericho scaring the Palestinians into thinking he was gonna run them over, and people were running all over the place. Also, they say pictures speak louder than words, and many pictures of the Israeli oppression I see do speak very loudly...

Horus, thanks for the welcome, tried to send you a message but dont think it got to you...
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
wn700driver
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:08 am

For 51 days Palestinian groups such as Hamas abided by the agreement and halted attacks. At the same period Israel continued with its incursions, its targetted killings, its massacres, its land land grab. As a result the ceasefire collapsed

Are you blind, or do they just show the news inside out & backwards in Egypt? If by "Conitinued with its incursions, its targetted killings, its massacres, its land [sic] grab..." you mean Isreal continues to provide electricity & running water to an occupied region that can't do that on its own, than yeah, guilty as charged. In return for their peace, and continued infrastructural development, they got a bus full of blown up women and children. What a great deal, Horus! I'll bet they wish they declared peace years ago, huh?

Here's the deal. There is no Palastinian cause. And before you start with the "you don't understand how it is to be a refugee" crap, look up some of my old posts. I used to sympathise with the Palastinian side. A trip to the area & some education on the subject ended that. Why?

Because as I said, there is no cause. Only anti-semetic Jealousy. It was not until the Jews created Isreal with international sanction to do so that the Arab world showed ANY interest in the area. So now that there is running water, economical development to rival most European nations, and of course Jews on the real estate, now it's a "Holy Land," that every Muslim in the region has some ancestral claim to.

The fact is that the Palastinians missed the boat by quite a spell on Statehood. Their best and only hope now is to wise the f#$% up, and condemn these psychopaths for who they are; to tell the world in no uncertain terms "These criminal jew-hating horror artist losers DO NOT REPRESENT US!" But I am not holding my breath for that one.

Peace
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
avi
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:10 am

QR332:And many of the people that are in Israeli prisons now are actually innocent,

Believe me, there are so many guilty guys that we don’t have space to put innocent ones. (Not to mention that from Palestinian point of view, they are all innocent, including the teenager who was caught with explosive belt on him a few weeks ago)

dont forget Israel is the only country where torture is legal.

?????????????????????

23 dead in a single attack? How many Palestinians are killed daily, even today? Doubt you would hear much about it though...

It may surprise you but every Palestinian death is reported in the Israeli media (TV, radio, web sites).
The worse attack that the Palestinian suffered claimed the lives of 17 people and it was an exception (this is why you can read about it again and again in this forum, there is nothing else so bad, and it was very bad). Israel suffered almost 10 terror attacks like that or much worse (29 in single attack for example).

I have a question for you, QR332. Do you know how the Palestinians lived before they started the Intifada on Sep 2000? (What the could and couldn’t do, where was the Israeli army, who ruled them etc)

Long live the B747
 
tbar220
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:42 am

I'm simply amazed by some people's knowledge of history of the region. Study some history, and see how the Arab's have treated the Palestinians in the last 50 years, then maybe you'll understand what's going on in the region just a little bit better.

Horus,

You are awfully quick to spew out numbers left and right blaming "the Jews" and "the Zionists" every time you try to make a post, but you never post any source making me believe you are making this stuff up. Your responses are always just changing the subject to your own tastes, to your own agenda to slam "the Jews" and "Zionists", but you never back your claims with sources/facts.
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tbar220
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:56 am

"In 1970 the Palestinians under Yassir Arafat's PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) were strutting around Jordan, particularly Amman, with weapons. They had made no secret of targeting King Hussein's brother, Hassan for assassination because he had used the Jordanian army to control their ambitions to take over Hussein's kingdom. When the Palestinians became too bold, King Hussein attacked them, killing 10,000 to 20,000. Hussein drove them out of Jordan and most went to Lebanon. At that time neither the U.S. nor the Europeans objected to King Hussein's ejection of these hostile Palestinians. For that matter, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran also remained silent since that would have been their response to an attempted coup. The Palestinians were neither liked nor trusted by their Arab brethren but they were used to attack Israel through terrorism.

The Palestinians fled to Lebanon, there to be welcomed as brothers by the Lebanese. This soon changed as Arafat created a violent mini state-within-a-state. His methods were brutal. He set the Lebanese Muslims and Christians against each other.. Killings became common, with an estimated 100,000 dead Lebanese over the 12 year civil war which the PLO spawned.


Source: http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/1999/june/win3.htm
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L-188
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:59 am

Israel is going to watch that border very very tightly. Evenmore so then today.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:18 pm

Not a peep? What about the US media which gives you a documentary on the life of a Jew that has died but when a dozen Palestinians die its only written in the newsbar at the bottom.

Once more, you're given an opening, an opportunity to CONDEMN the muder of Jewish citizens, QR332, and once more, not a peep. Instead you make it some rant against the U.S. print, of which, I might add, the rant was wrong. Not a peep. Ergo, you fully and completely support these murders. Yes. Typical Arabs.

Terror and Violence? Because we use suicide bombs while Israel use F-16s, Apaches, Tanks, Soldiers and god knows what else?

And if your people would stop blowing up Jews, and for once-for once, sat down and legitmately gave peace a chance, the Israel arms wouldn't even be an issue. The fact is, even if you shamlessly deny it, that it's YOUR terror that has Israel using these weapons, not visa-versa.

And again, not a peep. Not one peep about murdering Jewish people. Not one peep. Yes, typicallly Arab.

What the hell do you know about Yassin? What you have heard - a murderer, hates this hates that, wants them to die, if Sharon died now look at how many mourners would come, hes a criminal whether you like it or not. Again, learn to read, evidence above, not enough i'll be glad to give you more.

Obviously, I know more about the truth of this son of a bitch, who, happily, is no longer, than you do. He's was a murderer; a scumbag; a Hitler wannabe. He's not ever worthy to be called a human being.

You, on the other hand, adore this man. And THAT'S why you don't make a peep about murdering Jewish citizens. Because YOU support it. You're just not man enough to admit it.

Yep, Arab terrorists, Islamic fanatics, so on.

A microcosm of the Arab world. When given the opening to condemn this terrorism, you can not do it. Ergo, you do support it. You embrace it. You live it, breathe it, smell it. And that makes you the enemy of everything I hold dear. Don't like it? That's your problem. But that is the unvarnished truth.

I see your point of view on this but Alpha1's responses really pissed me off,

Your getting pissed off at the wrong people. You should be pissed off at assholes like Arafat and Yassin, and groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda who are the reasons your race and religion have such a bad name these days. It's not Israel's fault, or the U.S. or the West-it's their fault. And, by default, it's your fault for given tacit or overt support to these assholes.

I pissed you off. Breaks my heart. Not.

Alpha1, Ariel Sharon is worse than Saddam.

Horus, if you start from that premise, you have absolutely no credibility, and anything else I would read that you say is worthless. If you feel that way, you, like QR332, are one of the problems, not one of the solutions, to this cycle of violence in the Middle East.

Until I see the Arab world publically, loudly, and with once voice, condemn thse assholes and these terrorist groups, I have no hope for the Arab/Muslim world. If you want your destinies to be controlled by men like Yassan, Arafat, and bin Laden, then you will NEVER achieve peace, and you will ALWAYS find yourself as the enemy of freedom, and of my nation.
 
Bofredrik
Posts: 1133
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:14 pm

Maybe we should MOVE Israel to the US? That would be the best possible solution. Israel could be the 51:st state. Where? It is up to you US citizens to decide. A dry and sunny place like Israel, maybe Arizona, Nevada etc...?

Then the palestinians could move back to the land that they had to leave in 1947 and up to now.

-----

A lot of people here on this forum talks abour arab/palestinian terrorism.
Do you remember what jewish terrorists did during this period?

IT WAS A LOT OF ATTACKS ON ARAB BUSES! (and many more things...)

Some EXAMPLES:

August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939. During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

December 11, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

December 30,1947. A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the "Carmel Brigade" attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

Folke Bernadotte

Count Folke Bernadotte af Wisborg (1895–1948) was a grandson of Oscar II, king of Sweden and Norway. In 1943, Folke Bernadotte became vice chairman and, in practice, head of the Swedish Red Cross. In this capacity, during the final months of World War II in 1945, he led a Swedish relief expedition to Germany with the famous “white buses.” Bernadotte’s expedition succeeded in saving about 30,000 concentration camp prisoners and bringing them to freedom in Sweden. At the very end of the war, he also passed Himmler’s surrender offer to the Western powers. On May 20, 1948, Folke Bernadotte was appointed the United Nations mediator in Palestine. This made him the first official mediator in the history of the world organization. In this capacity, he succeeded in achieving a truce in the first Palestine war and laid the groundwork for the UN relief organization for Palestinian refugees. His two plans for a political solution to the Palestine question were rejected by both sides in the conflict, however. On September 17, 1948, a few days before his second plan was to be presented to the UN, Bernadotte was assassinated in Jerusalem by Jewish extremists.
 
qr332
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:44 pm

Alpha1 you blind? Did your mom drop you on the head as a baby? How many times did I mention I want peace, I want the war to end, yet you still keep coming up with bulls**t. I hate Al Qaeda - they killed some of my relatives in Riyadh so dont get into that. And no, you dont jack about Yassin so dont start. The son of a bitch your talking about must be Sharon - read and reaserch my friend. Oh and, we should stop blowing up Jews? What about them killing Palestinians? I havent heard a peep from you about Palestinians being murdered and massacred so try to not be a hypocrite.

Wn700driver - There IS a Palestinian cause and firstly, Arabs have shown interest in the area since the times of the birth of Islam. This is where we believe that the Propehet ascended into heaven, and the Al-Aqsa mosque is Islams 3rd holiest site. Do you forget how hard the Arabs fought for Palestine during the crusades? The region has always been an interest to the Arabs. And also, I dunno what the hell you saw there cause if you saw the truth that many people live every day you wouldnt have that opinion. I think as I have mentioned before that now if foreigners, no matter what the race or religion, tried to take over the US you would fight as hard as you can for your home and country.

Alpha1 - You are probably one of those people who think that over here in the Mideast we live in little sand hovels while our leaders and shaikhs live in the nicest palaces in the world. Just try and visit Beirut or Dubai or even Doha - you wont regeret it, nobody is gonna to shoot you.

And by the way, why do you think I support the factions? Palestine isnt allowed to have a military force and as long as the Israelis are still in Palestinian lands whos going to defend us? The stone throwing children?

Avi - Yes I do know, and they were living happily and there was peace, and that is how I wish to see Palestine, not in the state it is today. I dont know about you but im damn right sick of this whole conflict.

Tbar20 - there has been many bad things within the Arab world and that is true, but much of it does not compare to the Israeli crimes. You want more details ill be glad to give them. Also, could you have found any source more biased than that?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Horus
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:49 pm

Bofedrick and QR332, both of you have given true intelligent arguments, but you just wait and see how certain other members are gonna come out and deny, distort and manipulate the truth as its been happening for so many years.

One wonders if the Palestinians were EVER be offered real, fair peace, what would of happened. But as long as jews have the hope of seeing the return of Greater Eretz Isreal, the future remains very dim. What is Greater Eretx Israel well the following is the definition in Brittania Encylopedia and the defintion used by many zionist:

"Eretz Israel, literally Biblical Israel is interpreted as a jewish state 'from the Nile to the Euphrates', which cover parts of Egypt, all of Lebanon and Jordan, plus most of Syria and part of Iraq. This is why many Israelis refuse to withdraq from the Occupied Territories, they believe that God promised them this land." [Brittania]

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:08 pm

How many times did I mention I want peace,

Sure you want peace-after Israel is destroyed. After that, you'll have peace, right? I'm no fool. Don't try to sell me.

Bofedrick and QR332, both of you have given true intelligent arguments

Both have spat out nothing but terrorist propoganda. The blind leading the bland. Actually, let me correct that: the wilfully gullible leading the willfully gullible.

One wonders if the Palestinians were EVER be offered real, fair peace, what would of happened.

They won't be as long as terror continues to stalk Israel. And frankly, until the Arab world shows it will turn from supporting terrorism, they will not have earned, nor do they deserve, peace.
 
Bofredrik
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:41 pm

Why do you Alpha 1 think it was correct by jewes to use terror in the 30:s and the 40:s against arabs?

I have not seen any comment about that...

It is some kind of double-standard here!!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:09 pm

Why do you think it's correct to use it today, Bofredrick? And did you say me say it WAS OK for that. It's not, not in any circumstance. But you seem to think it's a great think, what these murdering scumbags are doing today.

You're so full of the terrorists line of thought, that there's no going back for you.

Amazing, a man living in a free nation, like yourself, supporting thugs who are the anthesis of freedom. Truly ironic.
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:39 pm

Horus -

Let's see where you really stand.

- Yes or No, does Israel have right to exist?

- Yes or No, do you reject the notion that the goal of the palestinian movement has to be the destruction of the state of Israel.

- Yes or No, terrorism is not supported by the Koran?

- Yes or No, killing women and children (be the Arab, Palestininan or Jewish) is wrong?

-76M
 
Horus
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:20 pm

N6376m

-Yes, but not on the land and homes of its indiginous population. Chaim Weizzman, leader of the World Zionist Organisation, came up with the slogan, 'A land without a people for a people without a land' and this became the slogan to deliberately mislead the Dispora jews into going to Palestine. The propaganda was so effective, that when jews arrived to Palestine some were actually shocked to see people. When Max Nordau, another leading zionist learned that there were Palestinians living in Palestine he said to Herzl, 'I never realised this - we are commiting an injustice.' [Ha'aretz, 10th May 1978 and Diary of Israeli PM Moshe Sharett]

-The motive of Palestinian movements is to defend itself from jewish forces who commit terrorist activities on its people.

-Yes, the Koran is 100% against acts of terrorism

-Killing non-combatants (someone who does not hold arms and does not pose a threat) is wrong but killing any combatant (whether they hold a gun or support the disposition and murder of a people) is lawfull at a time of war (that's what the US is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan). But you can't have one rule for jews and one for Palestinians.



I have a question for you (you did not answer the question from post #28):

If tomorrow some occuping force/people attacked the US, established a nation there, then killed, tortured, exiled and massacred American citizens and you fought back, would you consider yourself a terrorist? Would you want to negotiate with the invaders on what portion of YOUR land you can take back? Please answer the question as I asked it, do not deviate from the scenario I set.

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
aerobalance
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:54 pm

Stone throwing will become a sport and not a method of war....
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Alpha 1
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:55 pm

-The motive of Palestinian movements is to defend itself from jewish forces who commit terrorist activities on its people.

That's an outright lie. The goal of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, is the destruction of Israel. The PLO Charter says as much. Hosni Mubarak, "President" of Egypt, has a map in his office of the Middle East-without Israel on it.

Now tell me that lie again, Horus.

-Yes, but not on the land and homes of its indiginous population.

The Jews WERE an indiginous population, back in Biblical times. Egypt enslaved the Jewish population.
 
N6376M
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RE: What Happens When Israel Pulls Out Of Gaza?

Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:03 am

Sorry I missed #28.

To answer your question Absolutely I think almost all Americans would fight back. I know I would. There's a cliche that says, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I certainly agree with that statement. So would I consider myself a terrorist for fighting back no, but then again I don't believe I would participate in attacks against a civilian population.

That being said, I don't believe the example you pose can be directly overlaid to the current conflict in the occupied territories as I'll discuss below.

First of all, the UN established the State of Israel. That's a fact and one which I believe highlights the inherent problem with the UN. The UN's action was a direct result of the collective guilt the world felt after the autrocities of WWII against the Jewish people. Before you remind me that many other groups died in much larger numbers during WWII, I'll agree to that comment but the Jewish people were specifically targeted for extermination. I really don't know where the UN gets the authority to create a nation - but that's another topic.

Secondly, the notion of who was there first is very complicated. History shows us that the Jew were the inhabitants of that land before Islam was even formed as a religion. Therefore, depending on how far back we analyze the situation, each party (at least in my opinion) has a claim on the land. In addition, Israel gained its independence from its British rulers.

Thirdly, we need to analyze why the "occupied territories" came into being. Now, this is where my historical knowledge is a bit lacking so I'll invite anyone to correct my facts on this regard. My understanding is that the 1948 borders of Israel did not include these areas. Israel didn't occupy the West Bank, the Gaza Stip or the Golan Heights until after the "6-day" war of 1967 in which in response to shelling from Syria from the Golan heights Israel attacked Egypt and Syria and took the Golan heights for its strategic military value.

I've never been able to find an explanation for why Israel wanted the Gaza Strip, so I'd appreciate it if somone could educate me on this.

The issue of the Sinai and Israel's incursion as part of a plan between the Brits, French and Israeli's in 1956 needs to be mentioned as an example of Israeli agression but since it no longer holds the land, I'll not discuss it further.

The history now being review, I believe that Israel should definitely vacate the occupied territories. I believe that their presence there is inflammatory and counter productive to the long-term resolution of the conflict. HOWEVER, Israel should not be expected to give up control of areas from which terrorist attacks are launched against it. Until the PLO (or whatever other organization can speak on behalf of all Palestinians and demand that attacks against civilians be stopped) Israel will always be able to make the argument that their presence in these lands is required for its own security.

Horus, I was very happy to see you denounce terrorism and recognize the right for Israel to exist. Rightly or wrongly, the perception in the US is that this is the minority view amongst Arabs. I believe that through dialogues such as this we can all calmly and rationally explain our positions and build on the common ground that we share.

I look forward to your comments.

-76M

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