andz
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Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:41 am

Just saw on Sky News that Spain will pull its troops out of Iraq "as soon as possible". This was a prominent election issue for the new Premier.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
VCE
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:47 am

This would be the biggest mistake Spain could do.
 
go canada!
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:51 am

Pulling troops out is exactly what bin laden and others want. Spain was involved in the war it should have the deceny to stay and rebuild the country.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
doug_or
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:53 am

After this terrorist victory, I think its likey that non-US forces will continue to be targeted.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
VCE
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:55 am

I totally agree with you Go Canada, this is was Bin Laden expects, to break the Western Alliance.
 
zak
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:09 am

what great news inded!

the most disturbing part however is that the bush apologists think that doing what the spanish people want is a mistake.
i think that says all about the attitude towards democracy some people here have.
10=2
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:13 am

This would be the biggest mistake Spain could do.

Isn't a member of "The coalition of the willing", allowed to willingly pull their troops out if they feel it is right for them? Sounds like to me the keeping of a campaign pledge, a rarity in a politician of any stripe.

If this what the Spanish PEOPLE want, who the hell are you guys to critisize them?

 
solarix
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:31 am

Al-Qaeda will market this the same way they use Somalia. Just watch.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
aloges
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:34 am

Oh yadda yadda yadda...

What was the percentage of the Spanish people that opposed going to Iraq? Some 90%. And yet there are people jumping on the "bin Laden wins, Zapatero is a traitor" badwagon.  Insane

Guess it sucks to be a Bush arse-kisser when things don't go the way the mighty Texan expects them to go.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
go canada!
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:43 am

Aloges, my point is this, Spain as a nation supported the war and is partly responsible for invading iraq and for the problems going on there, to withdraw half way through is hypocritical. Many anti war people in the UK accept the arguement that since we bombed iraq we should help clear up the mess we started. Spain and every nation who supported this military adventure should have the deceny to help the iraqi people.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:57 am

Spain as a nation supported the war and is partly responsible for invading iraq and for the problems going on there

Spain isn't responsible. The United States and Great Britian are responsible. Spain decided to go along, for reasons their ex-PM can only tell us. But it's obvious that Spain's people NEVER wanted to be a part of this war, so what's your problem, Go Canada, with them pulling their troops out, and doing what the people of Spain wanted all along?
 
Guest

RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:08 am

VCE wrote:

"I totally agree with you Go Canada, this is was Bin Laden expects, to break the Western Alliance."

I would argue that it was Bush and his allies who have done much to break the Western alliance, and thus done exactly what Al Qaeda wanted them to do. The world overwhelmingly supported the War Against Terror, but Bush chose to alienate so many countries by pursuing a misguided war in Iraq. When Bush's "allies" lose at the ballot box, many of these divisions within the international community will disappear, and that can't possibly be good news for Al Qaeda. Furthermore, when Kerry wins in November, much of the anti-US-leadership sentiment around the world will vanish, healing a troubling international divide that Bush has created and Al Qaeda has exploited.
 
mrwayne
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:12 am

I thought that the Italians only made cars with 1 forward gear and 5 reverse.
The coalition forces should stick together over this.
Bin linner (laden) will be just laughing at the west again.
 
VCE
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:18 am

Mrwayne, i think that the Italians have payed a lot in Iraq, and i'm sure our loyalty with our Allies was the right decision to take. So, i don't understand yr humor.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:21 am

Spain as a nation supported the war

Which part of "90% of the population were opposed to the war" was unclear? The Nation of Spain clearly didn't want this war. It's democratically elected government chose to ignore the vox pop, and paid the price at the recent election.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:29 am

Appeasement my ass. The old Spanish gov't were the appeasers, now finally the Spanish people have a gov't that represents their wishes and will stand up to the aggressor.

Mrwayne, your remark about Italy was childish and uncalled for. The Italians are as deep into this war as Britain and show no sign of straying. I share VCE's confusion, but I'm also offended. Get it together - and apologise.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
rjpieces
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:36 am

Jeez, many people forget so quickly that OBL is a much bigger enemy/issue than Iraq. The main arguments over Iraq are long over. The recent bombings in Spain, and attempted bombings in England and France should reunite the Western World against what is a far more dangerous situation. France was the country most against the war in Iraq and that didn't stop terrorists from trying to strike there. The Western World is united in a fight against Muslim fundamentalism that is bound to last a while....The leaders should wake up, realize this, and use this war against terrorism as a platform for bringing the Western World closer together again.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
mrwayne
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:54 am

VCE; Sorry if I offended you it was only a joke Italy has been a good ally in the Iraq conflict.
 
VCE
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:57 am

Mrwayne, no problem Smile
 
aloges
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:58 am

I agree 100% with what Rjpieces said in respect to the "War against Terror".

The trouble in "the Western World" only started when the Bush admin went ahead with that "You're either with us or against us!" hogwash; remember the support the US was and is given against terrorists such as "Muslim" fundamentalists?

In addition to that, US forces have been relieved by "coward nations" such as Germany when they themselves were deployed to Iraq. For example, US barracks in Germany are guarded by German forces (mostly conscripts like friends of mine) instead of American forces.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:59 am

RJpieces: "Jeez, many people forget so quickly that OBL is a much bigger enemy/issue than Iraq. The main arguments over Iraq are long over." So what you're saying is the same as when Bush stole the election: get over it. Sorry, I need more than that.

"The recent bombings in Spain, and attempted bombings in England and France should reunite the Western World against what is a far more dangerous situation." Entirely possible, but there are people who can't read or write living in mud huts in Bhutan who know that George W Bush (or George W Bullshit as he was referred to the other day) can't walk and chew gum. Since he's the self-appointed guy who's gonna lead this so called war on so called terrorism, you can see why some of us aren't that crazy about going along with him, we saw quite plainly how much he lied about Iraq and what a bloody awful mess that's turning into (and what a recruiting ground for anti-western sentiment!). Let's roll? Errr, you roll without me. I rolled mine already.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
ryanb741
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:03 am

This is nonsense - it will be viewed as a victory in the eyes of the terrorists and will only spur them on. I'll take a hundred dollar bet with anybody now that this will reinforce Al Qaeda's desire to cause atrocities at the forthcoming UK and US elections. In either case, we won't go down the same route as Spain - once you start a job you stay there to see it through.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
VCE
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:06 am

I belive that against terror all the Western Democracies must be united. Terrorism is threat for all of us, but honestly speaking i see in Europe only the UK and my country Italy in the first line to fight against the terrorism in a concrete way. This is a mistake.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:06 am

Actually RJpieces, I'll go you one more. Once again: "Jeez, many people forget so quickly that OBL is a much bigger enemy/issue than Iraq." To be honest matey, we were all still reeling with shock and horror at what happened to our cousins in New York when George W Bullshit himself forgot that OBL is a much bigger enemy than etc etc., and started banging the drum for war in Iraq, with all the lies about a mushroom cloud over an American city. Everyone knew there were no weapons in Iraq, but it was Bush's stated policy to take our eye off the ball re al Qaeda and start going after a toothless dictator with no connection to Islam. We all wanted to find OBL, now we don't trust anything that comes out of Washington. And somehow that's Spain's fault?

Mr Wayne, nice work.

[Edited 2004-04-18 21:08:38]
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
VCE
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:09 am

Thanks Cedarjet Smile I respect the opinions of everybody, but sometime.. you know.. Big grin
 
rjpieces
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:31 am

"To be honest matey, we were all still reeling with shock and horror at what happened to our cousins in New York"

I'm with you Cedarjet!  Sad
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
donder10
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:37 am

this what the Spanish PEOPLE want, who the hell are you guys to critisize them?

If the majority of the US public in a few months wants to bring home US troops then I guess it should as well?

Everyone knew there were no weapons in Iraq
Most UN security council members thought there were weapons in Iraq.


It's called democracy in action.
Scbriml,Spanish opinion polls showed the incumbent's holding a 5% lead or so right up to the day of the bombings.Then they lost by about the same amount.Surely the oppisition to the war would have shown up before 3 days or so before the elections?

 
aloges
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:42 am

"If the majority of the US public in a few months wants to bring home US troops then I guess it should as well?"

Basically, yes. But given that loads of people (a vast majority of the American public, IIRC) were fooled into supporting that war or supported it wholeheartedly, as opposed to 90% of the Spanish population that never agreed with that war, a future US admin would be in a different position that Zapatero.

The Spanish never wanted the war, the Americans did (I know I'm oversimplifying).

"Scbriml,Spanish opinion polls showed the incumbent's holding a 5% lead or so right up to the day of the bombings.Then they lost by about the same amount.Surely the oppisition to the war would have shown up before 3 days or so before the elections?"

The PP government lost because it tried to fool people into believing that ETA was behind the attack, even after it knew better. They even went as far as passing on that false information to foreign secret services such as Germany's BND. I call it luck that this lie became obvious before the election.

Edited to merge two posts into one.

[Edited 2004-04-18 21:47:01]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:51 am

Spanish forces shouldn't be in Iraq anyway, it's about time. Aznar went against the wishes of his people and in the end got what he deserved. The war was a mistake, there are no WMD's and Iraq was no threat to any members of the "coalition of the willing". This latest military adventure was about settling old scores and gaining political foothold in a region of the world where natural resources play a major part. Spain never had and did gain anything from joining this illegal adventure.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
JOSEMEX
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:52 am


>this what the Spanish PEOPLE want, who the hell are you guys to critisize them?<

>The Spanish never wanted the war, the Americans did<

By the same token, if the majority of Americans wanted the war, who the hell are we to criticise them?

>It's called democracy in action. <

Cuts both ways.
 
aloges
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:31 am

"This what the Spanish PEOPLE want, who the hell are you guys to critisize them?"

Whoever said that in the first place: We can criticise anything we want, can't we? Dissent is an important pillar of democracy, or so I was told.

Nevertheless, my personal opinion is that the Bush admin fooled most of the supporters of the war in Iraq into believing that Iraq was posing a threat. So I criticise the willingness of many American citizens to follow their government as blindly as they did. I also criticise the Bush admin itself for coming up with all the stories that fooled people into believing that Iraq was posing a threat, or that Saddam was cooperating with al-Qaeda.

Furthermore, I think that there would not have been a majority in the US in favour of the war in Iraq had it not been for the stories that were told by the government. So in the end, I think that the American people would not have supported the war in Iraq if the truth about those Iraqi "WMDs" had been told.

I also condemn the many atrocities that Saddam committed, but that doesn't matter here.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Klaus
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:32 am

Just watched Spiegel TV a short while ago... They accompanied a group of american soldiers during several raids and interviewed several of them.
The tenor of the interviews: The GIs are feeling just plain used on grounds of false information, fighting a fight they don´t see they can win.

They also talked to several war correspondents with Viet Nam experience, and their commentaries weren´t really encouraging, either.

It is very easy to yell pseudo-patriotic slogans at the home front when it´s other guys who actually do the dying!  Sad

So please spare everybody the crap of "Spain surrendering"; This campaign was cursed right from the beginning, and it needs to be terminated and replaced by a real peace mission. Military will still be necessary, but the occupation and the chauvinistic propaganda must end to make way for a realistic approach.
 
zak
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:57 am

i have seen it aswell klaus, they did really good documentaries there.
10=2
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:00 am

It will be interesting to see how soon Spain falls out of favour with the United States. Methinks they are on the same list as New Zealand now.

Now, I wasn't at all convinced by the Weapons of mass destruction argument, but I did believe that it was in the interests of the Iraqi people that the international community remove Hussein. For that reason - and to maintain that outcome, I believe all troops should stay in Iraq until the job is done. I will not support a policy of half-rebuilding that may spawn a new generation of terrorists and inflame resentment from the arab world toward the west.

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
delta-flyer
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 10:40 am

I find it very ironic that days after Spain announced it will withdraw troops from Iraq, another bomb was planted on the railroad, presumably by the same group that planted the first set. (It was fortunately found before it detonated.)

I don't think Al Qaeda gives a damn about Iraq; they just love killing innocent people.

Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
Guest

RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:22 am

Nothing like encouraging Al Queada to bomb more innocent people to get the outcome they want to an election. I think it is pretty clear to the thinking people in the world the Spain train bombing was designed to influence and election, which it did, now Spain is pulling their troops out. Look for Pro-Kerry/Nader bombings in the US around November, as well as Anti-Blair bombings in the UK around their election time. Spain bending the pressure is exactly what the bombers wanted and as long as they get what they want through bombings we can expect more of them.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:37 am

I'm glad to see at least one country has the balls to admit they where wrong and go home. Terrorism has nothing to do with George Bush's oil war in Iraq. Bravo Spain. The world needs to wake up and realize that oils the reason the US invaded Iraq.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:40 am

Yes Startvalve, the will of the people is a terrible thing to listen to, isn't it?

Give me a freaking break.
 
Guest

RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:46 am

Startvalve wrote:

"Look for Pro-Kerry/Nader bombings in the US around November,"

As I've argued above, it is in Al Qaeda's interest to see Bush re-elected, as he has done so much to divide the West in its struggle against terror by pursuing a misguided adventure in Iraq. Therefore, if anything, Al Qaeda will only try to get him elected, just as some Palestinian groups have gotten hard-liners elected in Israel. Having a leader that could unite the West and really focus on the war against terror is the last thing Bin Laden wants, so he is probably very pleased with Bush and his alliance-busting policies.
 
rev3oh2
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:05 pm

In reference to several who have said so, I don't think Bush "fooled" anyone with his reasons for going to war with Iraq. The way it's now presented to make it seem as if it was some kind of plot based on fabricated evidence is absurd, especially looking back over the language of the pre-war U.N. resolutions, statements made by leaders of the previous administration, etc.

But all of that aside, having been addressed ad nauseum in a previous thread, let me just say that supporters of the Iraq war such as myself hold no grudges against Spain for doing what she's doing. We've experienced mass murder ourselves. Spain can and will do what she wants and the U.S. will not attempt to force her to do otherwise, as is obvious. Thus, I do not see this as harming the alliance, as it will take more than a bunch of murderous bombers to shatter the strong relationship between the two nations.

However, given that Spain is pulling out, I do agree with those who make the point that this will likely be interpreted by the al Qaida killer types as a victory. For that reason I see it as sending the wrong signal. But again, Spain will act for Spain, not for anyone else.
...let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:37 pm

Rev3oh2, I disagree. I see Spain realizing their error of siding with a lying American president that mislead them and most of the world. I believe that if the war in Iraq was really about terrorism Spain, France, Germany would all be there in strength. Only the blindist conservatives still believe this war in Iraq is about terrorism. One day years from now America will admit it was wrong to invade Iraq.... Just like it was wrong to kill hundreds of thousands in Vietnam.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:47 pm

Rev3oh2, I disagree. I see Spain realizing their error of siding with a lying American president that mislead them and most of the world.

1. There's no proof President Bush lied. He believed the intel, the Democrats believed it, Spain, Britian believed it. I personally didn't think what we heard was convincing for war,but I don't believe Bush lied on this war. My problem is, after months and months of it being about WMD, Bush changed, post-facto, the reasons for the war, and that is disingenuous, and it is a sign that this President can deal with making a mistake.

2. I don't think it's realizing an error. 90% of the Spanish people didn't want to be in this war, and the attack on their soil brought home to them that fact, and they voted as they felt.
 
L-188
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:56 pm

Oh I don't doubt that the Spanish people voted with their hearts and emotions.

But I don't doubt either that this is a lesson to certian groups that a simple bombing can influence elections to get what they want.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
rev3oh2
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:57 pm

Disagreement noted.

So then, you think the deaths of nearly 200 people on the Madrid railways had nothing to do with Spain's decision?

And by the way, Saddam Hussein was a terrorist in his own right, and was without question harboring terrorists, Abu Abbas among them. You know, the guy who set the precedent for killing people in wheelchairs, arrested in Iraq last April?

...let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:05 pm

So then, you think the deaths of nearly 200 people on the Madrid railways had nothing to do with Spain's decision?

It had a direct correlation, but I don't see it as you do. I see it as the Spanish people saying "Damn it, we made it clear we didn't want to be in this war, but our leaders took us there anyway, and because we did, those 200 people died." And then they voted for a government that said it would heed the people's wishes on the matter. You, on the other hand, see it is caving in. I don't. It would be caving in if there were overwhelming support for the war, but the opposit was true.
 
L-188
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:14 pm

"Damn it, we made it clear we didn't want to be in this war, but our leaders took us there anyway, and because we did, those 200 people died."

I don't disagree this is probably what the voters where thinking.

But can you see Al-quiche thinking this about the same event?

"Look, we were able to cause an event that forced out an opponet to us. If it worked there it should work again to force out somebody else who is against us. We can influence elections!

There is a hell of a lot of difference in the message that the voters are sending and the one the terrorists are recieving.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:18 pm

Big, big mistake Spain. The Spanish people can opine all they want about the "peoples' will", "democracy", and "Bush misled us" but the bottom line is that al-Qaeda will count Spain's departure as a victory for them and their murderous ways. Make no mistake. al-Qaeda will not take the same nuanced view as European political commentators.

[Edited 2004-04-19 06:25:16]
 
rev3oh2
Posts: 131
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:20 pm

You, on the other hand, see it is caving in.

No, I really don't see it as caving in, nor did I say that. I agree with you that many didn't want their own troops to be in Iraq in the first place. And as I said above, Spain will do what it wants to do without harming the alliance with the U.S.

I just think that the act of bombing the trains in Madrid coupled with the change in government 3 days later, is going to be interpreted, rightly or wrongly, by those who use terror to try to influence political policy as a victory.
...let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
 
Klaus
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 7:44 pm

It appears many have already forgotten what the real reasons for the angry protests and ultimately for the demise of the Aznar administration was:

They lied about the preliminary results of the bombing investigation and got caught doing it. ETA being behind the bombings was apparently perceived as tactically more useful to Aznar than admitting it was probably islamist terrorists, so they decided to suppress the facts, even going so far as to pass false information to allied intelligence agencies.

That is what got them kicked out of office; Had they presented the facts properly, they would probably still be in office.

Sure, it´s not as simple as "Spain caving in to the terrorists", but I think it´s important to remember the actual facts, even if they should not match the prejudices.  Insane
 
donder10
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RE: Spanish Troops To Leave Iraq

Mon Apr 19, 2004 8:44 pm

Sure, it´s not as simple as "Spain caving in to the terrorists", but I think it´s important to remember the actual facts, even if they should not match the prejudices.


Precisely.It was the PP's bungling of the aftermath that caused their downfall NOT the fact that Spain had gone into Iraq.However,it will give encouragement to Islamic terrorists as it was their acts that ultimately changed the election.

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