Russophile
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Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 6:56 pm

This comes on a day in which most of the former Soviet Union celebrates Victory Day -- 9 May -- the day that the USSR defeated NAZI Germany and the deaths of more than 20 million people are commemorated. And how do the Chechens decide to celebrate?

By setting off a bomb in a football stadium in Grozny which was packed with people commemorating Victory Day.

Chechen President Akhmad Kadyrov has been killed as has a journalist -- there are an unspecified number of other deaths and injuries as a result of the blast was centred below the VIP section of the stadium. There are young children also amongst the seriously injured.

http://www.newsru.com/russia/09may2004/terakt.html

Now let's all turn around and hug the Chechen terrorist closest to you. How many will you hug today?
 
aloges
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 7:06 pm

"Now let's all turn around and hug the Chechen terrorist closest to you. How many will you hug today?"

Who are you referring to? The ones who called you a "terrorist hugger"?

May the victims rest in peace.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Russophile
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 8:41 pm

Referring to? No-one in particular -- but aimed towards those who seem to think that the Chechens are warm and fuzzy and it's all Russia's fault that shit is happening in Chechnya.

The loss of Kadyrov is a setback to a resolution in Chechnya -- he used to be a terrorist leader when Yeltsin sent the troops into Chechnya, but later denounced his fellow terrorists, because of their extreme brand of Islam which they wanted to enforce on the entire population (and neighbouring republics). He even went on the record as saying that the Russians have given Chechnya everything they ever had -- when left to their own devices the Chechens screw everything up.

Maybe Russia should pull out completely from Chechnya -- then leave the extremists for a few months -- the world will be begging the Russians to go back into the territory, as the Republic (and region) turns into exactly what caused the Russians to go in on both occasions.

And why Victory Day? Maybe it has to do with the Chechens were Nazi collaborators -- maybe they are pissed the Nazi's didn't win the war -- good thing they didn't -- what happened to them under Soviet rule is nothing compared to what the Nazis would have done.

Latest is that 14 are confirmed dead, and the MChS is saying that 50 are seriously injured, with reports of people having their legs blown off.
 
Guest

RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 8:50 pm

Aside from the terrorist attack, which I of course condemn, there's one thing that bugs me.

The bomb seems to have exploded directly BENEATH the seats where the president and other dignitaries were (I just saw a video of it on French news).

I mean, didn't anyone think of checking down there for a bomb? What kind of security did that guy have? That's the first line in the book! Imagine, this could have been prevented.
 
Russophile
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 9:06 pm

It's hard to tell PU151. And let me tell you why. Details are still sketchy though.

This isn't the first attack on Dinamo Stadium.

Two years, to the day, these warm and fuzzy Chechens set off a bomb in Makhachkala in neighbouring Dagestan. The bomb was set off by remote control and was set off in the middle of a Victory Day parade in that city. Over 30 people killed and hundreds wounded.

On the same day in 2002, the same warm and fuzzy Chechens used an apartment building in Grozhny (the name suits this city to a tee) to fire rocket grenades into the stadiu, which like today, was being used for Victory Day commemorations.

It just seems they have moved up from rocket grenades. Maybe the bomb was set and was set off by remote control. Or maybe the security below the VIP section of the section wasn't as heavily protected -- it is typical in Russia for government leaders to commemorate Victory Day with the public -- with the Chechen commemorations being held in a stadium, it would likely be hard to search everyone. And the Chechens have started new techniques, such as using suicide bombers -- Kadyrov was almost the victim of a female suicide bomber not long ago.

Two things are certain:

1) Maskhadov is behind this -- that is without a doubt.
2) Putin is going to take a hard line with Chechnya in future -- Kadyrov was in the unique position of being the pro-Moscow President of Chechnya but was also very critical of some abuses by Russian military forces -- that he was able to be so critical and still holds onto power is quite unique. I don't think the next President will be quite so critical in the future.
 
Zweed
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 9:36 pm

If people think what Ms. England did in the Iraqi prison was bad they should look into what our fellow russians are doing in Chechnya.

I heard drag racing with armed vehicles with a chechnyn soldier tied to the vehicle is very popular.
 
JAL777
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 9:55 pm

Hmmm... I guess you can pick and choose which terrorist bastards you want to hug.
 
L-188
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 9:58 pm

God, ain't that the truth JAL777.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
zak
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 10:00 pm

"Referring to? No-one in particular -- but aimed towards those who seem to think that the Chechens are warm and fuzzy and it's all Russia's fault that shit is happening in Chechnya."


you are a real hypocrite, you call those people in iraq insurgents and all that, but in the same shot call those chechens terrorist bastards.
mind you that russian soldiers were used to elect in chechnya to have a pro moscow president, the occupying soldiers.
it is as hypocritical as if the brits would let every british soldier cast a vote in basrah and "democratically" elect a british major.
russian interests in having influence in the oil rich area around the caspian sea are what caused the FUBAR in chechnya. it is as despicable as the u.s. invasion in iraq, yet you are flaming it all the time and now have the balls to defend the same game with russian flavour? hypocrisy galore!
10=2
 
Russophile
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 10:40 pm

you are a real hypocrite, you call those people in iraq insurgents and all that, but in the same shot call those chechens terrorist bastards.

Really? Care to show me where I have said this? Don't pull shit out of your arse and try to fling it at me, because it won't stick. In regards to Iraq, there are terrorists -- I do not disagree with anyone who says there is. And there are terrorists who are not Iraqi.

However, there are Iraqi insurgents who are not terrorists -- these are the ones who attack only military targets.

In addition, comparing Iraq to Chechnya is comparing apples and oranges.

The reason the Russians are in Chechnya is because 1) it is Russian territory and 2) it was the Chechens who attacked Russian civilians.

The Americans, Brits, Aussies, etc are in Iraq because.....hell....I can't remember this week's reason, but at no point did Iraq attack any American, British, Australian, Polish, etc territory.

This does not justify the attacking by insurgents of civilians -- just as the excuses use to wage war against Iraq are not justified.

In Chechnya, there is a clear and very distinct reason -- it was the Chechens who re-ignited the war by chosing terrorism over peace.

And in addition, this is an internal Russian problem.

mind you that russian soldiers were used to elect in chechnya to have a pro moscow president, the occupying soldiers. it is as hypocritical as if the brits would let every british soldier cast a vote in basrah and "democratically" elect a british major.

Are you sure you are not talking about recent elections in which Russian soldiers were allowed to enact their right to vote in Russian Presidential elections at polling booths set up in various Chechen towns and cities.

russian interests in having influence in the oil rich area around the caspian sea are what caused the FUBAR in chechnya.

If it was about oil, then can you explain to me WHY the Russians fully withdrew from Chechnya, left the Chechens to their own devices, and then invaded again only AFTER the Chechens decided it would be good to bomb some apartment buildings. If it was about oil, the Russians would not have withdrawn from Chechnya in the first place.

Unlike Iraq, the Russians did not enter Chechnya with a convoy of soldiers followed closely behind by a convoy of oil and gas workers. There was a very clear reason as to the invasion of Chechnya.

Call me a hypocrit if you like -- I could really care less -- but I don't see the world as black & white -- given two identical situations -- one action may be justified whilst another is not -- however, Iraq and Chechnya are two completely different situations.

Next!
 
Zweed
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 10:51 pm

Remember that he is russian, hence he doesnt get the same true news reports as ther rest of the world gets about Chechnya. The commin Russian has no idea about what's actually going in Chechnya. The only get selective propaganda.
That is a fact.
 
aloges
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 10:55 pm

You folks might consider stopping your little flame war before it all gets deleted and you get banned.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Guest

RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 10:58 pm

That is BS Zweed, do you really think we get 100% true and neutral information from the media here in Europe on ANY serious matter? And, BTW, knowing that Russophile obviously has an IT connection and he can read English, he has access to roughly the same media sources as we do.

So if you're gonna put up an argument, try to use some other angle than the propaganda stuff. We're not in the 50s anymore.

And, L-188, about the cartoon you posted, it is not 100% true, there were Iraqis that were quite shocked by what happened with the contractors. Unfortunately, Gallup couldn't take a poll on that one  Big grin .
 
L-188
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 11:01 pm

I would hope that that cartoon would not apply to 99.9% of Iraqi's or arabs/muslim in general PU151
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
vafi88
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 11:06 pm

Zweed - nice try bud! But living in a country like netherlands doesn't really help your case. The fact is, is that EVERY newspaper/tv news has bias (fox news neo-con CNN moderately libs). The russian people see everyday what goes in chechniya and even people subscribing to the russian stations in other countries get it (such as my grandparents). We see what goes on.


The fact is, is that you westerners forgot that a while ago the Soviet Union broke apart, and there is still a cold war (maybe moral more than military now) going on.

Solution: stay out of Russian internal affairs.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
Zweed
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 11:08 pm

PU151

That is not bullshit at all.
The common population are not aware of the true situation in Chechnya at all. The news coming out to the population from Chechnya are heavily controlled and censored.
I dont know if you have any knowledge in this area, it doesnt seem like it. And yes, propaganda is the most pwerful tool in modern warfare. Did you know that?
Of course we dont get 100% true information. But having our own reporters in the area gives us a much more reliable picture than the press releases coming from the Russian armed forces.
 
Russophile
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 11:08 pm

Remember that he is russian, hence he doesnt get the same true news reports as ther rest of the world gets about Chechnya. The commin Russian has no idea about what's actually going in Chechnya. The only get selective propaganda.
That is a fact.


Me? A Russian? That is a fact? Look up the meaning of my username, and you might realise it isn't a fact. And as I speak Russian, I read plenty of RUSSIAN sources which are both for and against the war in Chechnya -- I don't need to read non-Russian sources because they are at best biased and at worst totally inaccurate -- the Finnish Moscow Helsinki Group being one of these -- in one press release they say there weren't observers in Chechen elections, another press release says they were, and then again they say they weren't -- it is this group which a lot of the western media get's their news in Chechnya from.

As to other Russians, you might be surprised -- most Russians I know check www.newsru.com which is the most objective Russian media source there is. And they are extremely critical of Russian government policies when it is warranted.
 
Guest

RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 11:14 pm

And, again, I tell you that Russophile has an IT connection and therefore has access to exactly the same media reports we do....

Yeah, and you're right, I probably know nothing about the subject... It's not like I went through a 18 months geopolitics course and that my final 100-page paper was about Chechnya.

But you missed my point, I was talking about propaganda in general, saying that if, basically, you and I (I live in France), can get to the truth behind Chechnya, Russophile too can.

But let's tone it down before we get all booted out, as someone suggested.

Edit: If I contributed to heat up this damn thing, or offended someone, sorry, I didn't mean to.

[Edited 2004-05-09 16:18:09]
 
Zweed
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 11:32 pm

The day russia has independent media will be the same day George W Bush gets accepted in MENSA
 
cedarjet
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 09, 2004 11:41 pm

"This comes on a day in which most of the former Soviet Union celebrates Victory Day -- 9 May -- the day that the USSR defeated NAZI Germany and the deaths of more than 20 million people are commemorated."

Why the hell should Chechnyans be expected to celebrate Russian military victories?! Are you mad?! Chechnyans kill a collaborator in the brutal occupation of their country, and we're supposed to sympathise with Russia?!

When is Russia going to leave Chechnya?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
david b.
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 12:11 am

By setting off a bomb in a football stadium in Grozny which was packed with people commemorating Victory Day.


Football stadium in Grozny?? Grozny has been reduced to rubble.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
leviticus
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 12:17 am

God Zweed, you are so stupid that it hurts. I doubt more and more that you actually finished elementary school...
 
kolobokman
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 12:24 am

Why the hell should Chechnyans be expected to celebrate Russian military victories?!
Chechen veterans of the WWII were celebrating the Victory day! Do you seriously believe they were forced to do that, or are you a blind believer that Russians are pure evil!

Here is a video from Vesti news agency: http://www.vesti.ru/video.html?vid=31075
I didn't spot too many Russian faces.

Apparently the bomb was placed in the cement during the construction 3 moths ago.
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
kolobokman
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 12:43 am

Football stadium in Grozny?? Grozny has been reduced to rubble

Seriously? Your local news told you that? Is there a picture in your mind of an empty space that used to be Grozny?

Yes, it was shuttered a lot, but Chechens with the money for their oil perhaps and with the help of the rest of the country(Russian Federation) have been rebuilding it. I guess your news have not been running that story
I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
 
Russophile
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 12:48 am

The day russia has independent media will be the same day George W Bush gets accepted in MENSA

What's his MENSA membership ID, because Russia DOES have an independent media -- a flourishing independent media at that. I should know!! How I should know is absolutely none of your business -- but trust me, I know all too well.

Why the hell should Chechnyans be expected to celebrate Russian military victories?! Are you mad?!

Firstly, it wasn't a Russian military victory -- it was a Soviet military victory -- a victory which didn't come cheap. But you are right -- why should the Chechens celebrate the victory over the Nazi's -- they would have preferred being exterminated by the Germans than exiled by the Soviets -- doesn't matter that there were Chechens in the Soviet armed forces though?

Chechnyans kill a collaborator in the brutal occupation of their country, and we're supposed to sympathise with Russia?!

A collaborator? This is what I love about airliners.net -- so many people have an opinion on the subject, but only a very distinct few have any idea of what is happening -- I could probably count on 10 fingers out of 10,000 members who would have any idea.

Kadyrov is anything but a collaborator. He was involved in the peace plans when Yeltsin sent the troops into Chechnya the first time. After he saw firsthand, remember he was a terrorist himself (and a mufti), what Maskhadov and the other extremists had in stall for Chechnya -- kidnappings, murders, bombings, more extreme Islamic law than the Taliban, etc -- he denounced what they were doing -- Kadyrov himself is a MUSLIM -- a Muslim who realises that an extreme Islamic state is not what Chechnya needs. He himself said that it is plainly obvious that left to their own devices, Maskhadov and the band of merry men...err....bandits......were ruining the country.

And by the way, they didn't just kill Kadyrov, but they also killed INNOCENT CIVILIANS. You know Cedarjet, the same INNOCENT CIVILIANS you moan about when Israel takes out leaders of Hamas and the like?!?

When is Russia going to leave Chechnya?

When Chechnya decides to:

* Stop blowing up apartment buildings
* Stop blowing up commuter trains
* Stop taking innocent civilians hostage in movie theatres
* Stop hijacking aircraft and threatening to blow them up
* Stop supporting terrorist acts in Dagestan
* Stop their kidnappings of innocent people in Chechnya
* Stop the torture of innocent hostages in Chechnya (such as chopping off the ears of a young girl and mailing them to her father)
* Stop their murders of innocent people in Chechnya
* Stop trying to force the entire Chechen population to live under extreme Islamic law
* Stop allowing Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups to train in Chechnya
* and generally, when they decide to stop being a republic whose government is run by a group of people I can only describe as being like a "pizda vonyuchaya"

After all, this is what caused the sorry mess in that republic.

Football stadium in Grozny?? Grozny has been reduced to rubble.

Grozhny is being rebuilt. Plus, the reduced to rubble nonsense is an over exaggeration of the western media. Anyway, the Dinamo stadium was there 2 years ago -- you would have known this if you read above  Big grin


[Edited 2004-05-09 17:55:06]
 
galaxy5
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 1:01 am

A while back you said there wasn't a problem in Chechnia, i guess you were wrong.

But, the terrorists there need to be put down swiftly and without prejudice. Those who commited those attrocities should be hunted down and brought to justice, just as all the terrorists around the world, be they in Iraq,Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Philipines, Europe, America or even Russia.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
go canada!
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 1:14 am

You cannot pick and chose terrorist groups to condemm, you either condemm call or nothing.Do you support the palestinain terrorists because some agrue there is not much difference between the palestinian terrorists and the Chechen terrorists.

Chechen terrorists will never suceed in their aims, this attack has no justification. It appears to be some chechens not all of them.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
airplay
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 1:16 am

"Terrorism" is such a subjective and over-used term it has lost all meaning. If you are at the receiving end of violence, you are more inclinded to label it terrorism. If you are on the offensive side, you use much softer and positive terms like "defensive action" or "retaliatory strike".

I've heard the story about the Chechins and the Russians ad nuseum and like most world conflicts, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Both sides are violent brutal entities that play out their political wills on the battle field with no regard for the future of the country and its youth who are permanently scarred by the autrocities.

Terrorism? Throw that term out and deal with the reality of the fighting. Terrorism is always met with retaliation and further escalation.

The US is learning this lesson the hard way in Iraq.....

 
tbar220
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 1:30 am

Pretty bad what has happened there. I don't really know how Russia should respond to this, as it was the Chechen president who was killed. That whole are is a mess.

And to all the Russian users who scream bloody hell on these Chechen terrorists, you should not be so two faced when defending the actions of Palestinian terrorism.
NO URLS in signature
 
vafi88
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 2:22 am

"pizda vonyuchaya"

I whole-heartedly agree!

Tbar - I am anti-palestinian terrorists as well, and actually I am anti-all terrorists.

Russophile, welcome to my RR list.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
tbar220
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 3:24 am

Vafi,

I'm glad to hear that.

There's a big double standard where people are outraged at terrorism but have a tendency to say that Palestinian terrorism is excusable.

Chechen terrorism is just as bad.
NO URLS in signature
 
Russophile
Topic Author
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 8:56 am

A while back you said there wasn't a problem in Chechnia, i guess you were wrong.

I guess you were wrong, as I never said such a thing.

And to all the Russian users who scream bloody hell on these Chechen terrorists, you should not be so two faced when defending the actions of Palestinian terrorism.

As should you not be so two faced when defending Israeli terrorism.

But isn't airliners.net great -- instead of people condemning the Chechen terrorists, they condemn me for condemning the terrorists.

 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 9:10 am

Could someone use the word "hug" in a sentence ??? My girlfriend says I'm "hug".... The jury is "hug" ??? "Hug" the terrorist closest to me ???
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 9:34 am

DcGuy; "hug" is a popular USA term for "embrace" or other physical bodily affection such as "squeeze". You may be confusing it with a completely different term such as "hung"? Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Mon May 10, 2004 8:52 pm

A while back you said there wasn't a problem in Chechnia, i guess you were wrong.

I guess you were wrong, as I never said such a thing.


No your wrong, it was a thread about bashing the U.S. you know the ones you love to start, In it i reflected "Why dont you worry about the problems in Chechnya instead" and you replied "WHat problems in Chechnya, there are none there."
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
North County
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Tue May 11, 2004 8:56 am



One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

and vice versa

 
IndianGuy
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Tue May 11, 2004 11:08 am


One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

and vice versa

I am with Russophile on this.

Chechnya is an integral part of Russia and always has been. Russia is fighting to preserve its territorial integrity.

Iraq is a totally different case. America invaded the coutry using the excuse of WMDs that were never found and then went on to illegally occupy that country. The IRaqi's are fighting to win back their freedom, so they are freedo fighters.

-Roy



 
N79969
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Tue May 11, 2004 11:17 am

...and Kashmir is sovereign nation under oppressive Indian occupation for over 50 years. Kashmiris attacking India are thus freedom fighters. That's correct now is it not Roy?

 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Wed May 12, 2004 9:06 pm

Chechnya is an integral part of Russia and always has been.

Completely false.
Cunning linguist
 
Russophile
Topic Author
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Wed May 12, 2004 11:56 pm

Not completely false. For the best part of the last 350+ years, Chechnya has been part of the Russian Empire and later of the Soviet Union, and now of the Russian Federation. Although it isn't "forever", 350 years makes it an inviolable part of the Russian Federation.

[Edited 2004-05-12 17:04:25]
 
North County
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Thu May 13, 2004 12:11 am

Didn't the Czar invade and take control of the area in the mid 1800's?

Didn't Chechenia declare their independence after WW1?
 
Russophile
Topic Author
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Thu May 13, 2004 12:28 am

The mid 1800s is when complete control was asserted over Chechnya, but since the 1600s Chechnya has been colonised by Russians.

And a lot of territories 'declared independence' after World War I during the early days of the USSR, but none was recognised by the international community.
 
sovietjet
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Thu May 13, 2004 12:48 am

nuke chechnya, nuke iraq, nuke afghanistan...problem solved
 
North County
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Thu May 13, 2004 3:08 am

Russophile,

Before the mid 1800's who was in control of the area?

Self rule, other power? kingdom?
 
Russophile
Topic Author
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RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Fri May 14, 2004 12:21 am

There was no such thing as 'self rule' in Chechnya -- it has always been a clan-based society -- much like the current Chechnya how each warlord belongs to a different clan (such as in Afghanistan).

This is a big part of the reason why Chechnya is in no way ready for any degree of independence -- and it's something the west either fails to recognise or are totally oblivious to. Ask a Chechen what nationality are they, and they will likely give you their clan 'nationality' before saying that they are Chechen.

You cannot have a society based on these 'clans' (particularly as these clans are often mortal enemies) -- that was tried for a few years in the 1990s, and you need only look at what Chechnya turned into.

There has to be authority and government structures in place, and Kadyrov recognised that the Chechen people are totally not ready for this -- they tried and failed miserably.

When the Chechens get their shit together, then pursue independence PEACEFULLY. Not the way they have done so thus far. And they may decide that instead of independence, they might be better off as a constituent republic within the Russian Federation -- such as Tatarstan (who also declared independence, but didn't turn to terrorist activities to achieve it).
 
bravo45
Posts: 2072
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 5:34 pm

RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Fri May 14, 2004 11:44 am

Maybe it has to do with the Chechens were Nazi collaborators -- maybe they are pissed the Nazi's didn't win the war

Not to mention that your ideal Stalin ordered the annihilation of the entire Chechen population at the height of the WWII when chechens were fighting against the Nazis. An order that resulted in the killing of almost more than 50% of chechen population. One of the most horrible genocides not popularly known to the rest of the world, and all of the other crimes since then to date.
As if you don't know what the hell I am talking about.
I don't care what the hell you think about. I pray for justice there, true justice. I don't have any need to answer any of your further rascist responses, any person can read the history if he wants to find out the truth.
 
IndianFlyboy
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:58 pm

RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Fri May 14, 2004 3:03 pm

N79969,

Lets not go into the Kashmir issue. Another thing , the Kingdom was Jammu and Kashmir , not Kashmir . This was ceeded to India by order of the King of Jammu and Kashmir in 1947 , it would have been an independent sovereign state if it had not been ceeded , but that's not the case at all.So the question of freedom fighters does not arise at all.
Without making this an Indo-Pak war Kashmir , the northern part of J&K holds significant importance to both Pakistan and India. Please correct me if I am wrong ,when the tribals from NWFP in Pakistan assisted by the new found Pakistan Army attacked Kashmir in 1947 in the hopes of taking it over the king ceeded the country to India. That is what established the Line of control , areas controlled by Pakistan and areas controlled by India.
The Shimla agreement, signatories being Pakistan and India , talked about making the LOC the international border . Nothing ever happened on that.
If we take the Shimla agreement into picture the areas south of the LOC belong to India , and so any infiltration from the north of it ,not the regular Pakistan Army, which would be war, for the purpose of killing and attacking civillians and disrupting the activities of the state is terrorism and not freedom fighting. 50,000 innocent lives lost in 15 years , what kind of freedom fighting is that. A complete load of big time BS. Please get your history straight before you venture on commenting about something you do not know.

As far as Iraq is concerned , please justify the stand the US took on Iraq. Iraq was labelled as a terrorist state , because it possesed WMD's , which the UN inspectors could not find , so the Allied army went in , without UN mandate to find and destroy these WMD's , which even after a year are no where to be seen.
It is sad and absolutely pathetic to see an innocent being beheaded for no fault of his and I stand with you guys on that . But will someone care to tell me why the attacks are on american's only ? Why were the Japanese hostages released ?
Probably some of our muslim friends would be able to clarify this point , aren't the Shia sect and the Sunni sect of Islam as far apart as the protestants and the catholics ? Wars have been fought over differences between the 2 sects, not just a year back but since a couple of centuries , yet they have come together in Iraq to fight the occupation.What bound them together , a common hatred.
Saddam was a jerk ,a dictator and did support terrorism and deserved what he got, But then so do leaders a lot of countries in Africa, so why aren't the US and her allies bombing half a dozen countries in Africa ? I call this hypocricy .
While I admire the west's policies and the freedom everyone gets, no single country in this world has the right to decide who is right and who is not.

Apologies in advance for the number of toes I stepped on , just my own opinion.

Regards
 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:03 am

RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sat May 15, 2004 1:59 am

Russophile appears to feel that the wishes of the Chechens, or declarations of independence, do not grant any legitimacy to Chechen nationhood, any more than they do to Taiwan; greater military power and widespread slaughter are the only way to settle geopolitical arguments.

Not completely false. For the best part of the last 350+ years, Chechnya has been part of the Russian Empire and later of the Soviet Union, and now of the Russian Federation. Although it isn't "forever", 350 years makes it an inviolable part of the Russian Federation.

And a lot of territories 'declared independence' after World War I during the early days of the USSR, but none was recognised by the international community.

Russia first conquered Chechnya in 1864; this is when the ethnic cleansing started. Chechnya declared independence as part of the north caucasus federation in 1918; this seems to have been recognised by the Bolsheviks (and by various other powers) but the Bolsheviks changed their mind in 1922, and invaded; adding another piece to the nascent USSR. Chechnya was then mostly under Soviet control (notwithstanding a few attempted rebellions) until it declared independence in 1990-1 and maintained a separate, functioning state until 1994; then Russia invaded again, but left again in 1996, then invaded again...

This is a big part of the reason why Chechnya is in no way ready for any degree of independence -- and it's something the west either fails to recognise or are totally oblivious to. Ask a Chechen what nationality are they, and they will likely give you their clan 'nationality' before saying that they are Chechen.

You cannot have a society based on these 'clans' (particularly as these clans are often mortal enemies) -- that was tried for a few years in the 1990s, and you need only look at what Chechnya turned into.

There has to be authority and government structures in place, and Kadyrov recognised that the Chechen people are totally not ready for this -- they tried and failed miserably.

When the Chechens get their shit together, then pursue independence PEACEFULLY. Not the way they have done so thus far. And they may decide that instead of independence, they might be better off as a constituent republic within the Russian Federation -- such as Tatarstan (who also declared independence, but didn't turn to terrorist activities to achieve it).


Riiiight... they're not fit to rule themselves, so Russia will do it on their behalf?
Very similar reasoning was used for 19th century justifications of imperalism in Africa.

Crushing local structures, interfering with government (most of the time) and sidestepping any notion of justice (all of the time), and of course killing thousands of people - these three aren't really compatible with preparing a country for independence. Therefore, I doubt that any Russian leader could take such a claim seriously.

And why Victory Day? Maybe it has to do with the Chechens were Nazi collaborators -- maybe they are pissed the Nazi's didn't win the war -- good thing they didn't -- what happened to them under Soviet rule is nothing compared to what the Nazis would have done.

Let's try a counterexample; Finland. It has a similar history. Tsarist Russia gained control of Finland in the 19th century, but it declared independence in 1917 (inspiring the north caucasus federation to declare independence a few days later). A few years later, the Soviets invaded Finland, just like the invasion of Chechnya; in both cases they finally prevailed with huge numbers, after heavy losses due to military incompetence and spirited defenders. Finland even opposed you in the Great Patriotic War. Surely, then, Finland deserves even more punishment than Chechnya?


I look forward to your mass-killings (and mass-deportations, mass-imprisonment, &c) of Finns, and I'm sure that flattening Helsinki with heavy weapons would help bring the rogue province under control, even if crushing the infrastructure doesn't. If any Finns fight back - they're rebels and terrorists.

Now let's all turn around and hug the Chechen terrorist closest to you. How many will you hug today?

it was the Chechens who attacked Russian civilians.

How many Chechens have Russians killed? Far more than vice versa. Hug a Russian.

I understand that you're frustrated; Russia has killed tens of thousands of Chechens, and yet there are still many extant terrorists. Strange, isn't it? There are two possible ways ahead:
1. Carry on killing Chechens. Maybe some survivors will change their mind, and start liking Russia.
2. Stop killing Chechens. Maybe then they won't be so angry.
Which sounds best to you?
Cunning linguist
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Let's Hug All Chechen Terrorist Bastards

Sun May 16, 2004 8:08 am


"Call me a hypocrit if you like -- I could really care less -- but I don't see the world as black & white -- given two identical situations -- one action may be justified whilst another is not -- however, Iraq and Chechnya are two completely different situations."

i have always been under the impression you were not as opposed to the insurgents in iraq as to them in chechnya. i am sorry for calling you a hypcrite if that is not the case, i must have misunderstood something then


"And in addition, this is an internal Russian problem."

the majority of chechens do not seem to consider themselves part of russia and do not want to, so its not an internal problem.



"Are you sure you are not talking about recent elections in which Russian soldiers were allowed to enact their right to vote in Russian Presidential elections at polling booths set up in various Chechen towns and cities."

no i am talking about every election that has taken place there since the russian invasion. this tactic to give the invasion a thin veil of democracy has been in place for day one.


"If it was about oil, then can you explain to me WHY the Russians fully withdrew from Chechnya, left the Chechens to their own devices, and then invaded again only AFTER the Chechens decided it would be good to bomb some apartment buildings. If it was about oil, the Russians would not have withdrawn from Chechnya in the first place."

just because there are not huge amounts of oil in the country itself does not mean it is about oil. the war there is all about russian influence on its fringe republics in the caspian and caucasus. i hope you do aswell recall that there are vast amounts of oil in these regions and russia tries to prevent a domino problem there since the majority of the population are from turk heritage and not russian it seems logical that if one country splits off that it will spill over to other areas.
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