ConcordeBoy
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Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 8:59 am

So it comes to pass that Monday will, at this point, see the first ~legal~ gay marriage take place in the USA.




Your thoughts:
Will it go through...?

Will there be a last-minute injunction/interruption of some sort...?

...was this inevitable??
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 9:02 am

...also, found this rather amusing... not completely accurate, but funny:
http://grove.ufl.edu/~ggsa/gaymarriage.html
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
worldoftui
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 9:03 am

Inevitable. Yes. This is called progress.
Will it go through - who knows - down to the couple.
Will there be a last-minute injunction / interruption of some sort? I am sure that someone will try to stop it with some legal fancywork.

Where is this legal marriage taking place? Guessing California.


Mark
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 9:06 am

Nope

Massachusetts
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
worldoftui
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 9:06 am

Just looked at that link.....
#3 Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.

Need to have a word with Mum and Dad.....  Confused

Mark
 
funflyer
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 9:23 am

New Hampshire is being surrounded, first Vermont, then Mass. OMG Big grin


We will never give in!
Arm the cannons




j/p



Who cares about status?
 
b757300
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 9:59 am

It isn't legal in the United States, it is "legal" in a state where judges have violated the U.S. Constitution and usurped the power of the legislature and the people. The judiciary does not have any authority to order the state legislature to go out and pass a law. This is a clear breach of the Constitution's clause that guarantees every state a republican form of government.

Expect this to end up in a 5 or so years before the Supreme Court. Before that, it will be bogged down in the lower courts. Eventually, enough of the people will force the government to pass a Constitutional Amendment to end the stupidity. There are already more than enough states to pass a Constitutional Amendment so all it will take is removing a few morons from the Senate.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
galaxy5
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 9:59 am

"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
AvObserver
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 10:13 am

The brilliant satire of this 'document' (thanks, ConcordeBoy) really says it all about the current oppressiveness in much of the country in the name of religion. How does letting homosexuals marry hurt you and me? They're going to be together, anyway. Do the religious 'Nazis' prefer that they live together in sin? Funny, they seem to have a problem with that concept when straight people do it. What the hell is going on in the 21st century that we still have so many people clinging to Old Worldesque views? How can people in government (Mr. Bush!) be moving to impose a ban on same-sex marriages. That's BLATANT discrimination, an area I'd thought the U.S. had been moving away from for many years. We freed the slaves, gave women the vote and have largely (but not entirely) quelled socio-economic discrimination against minority groups but the President, backed by religious right ninkompoops like the Christian Coalition, doesn't want to allow loving couples James and Todd or Laura and Penny to tie the knot? Why, because the Christian Bible says homosexuality is a sin? WHAT PLACE does Biblical doctrine have in setting U.S. laws? This is America, where separation of church and state IS the law! I made my share of 'fag' jokes when I was younger but I'm not proud of them, now. I sincerely hope this progressive milestone is allowed to proceed; there's no sound reason to deny any couple living in this land the right to wedded bliss, regardless of sexual orientation. They need to get the ball rolling in the more liberal states and gain momentum, even so, it'll take years, if ever, to get it done in the Midwest and Deep South, the so-called, 'Bible' belts. Too bad so many of those folk can't grasp the simple concept that it's wrong to impose THEIR views on everyone else. This is SUPPOSED to a be a free country!
 
Guest

RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 10:13 am

Legalized marriage at last!!! Now we can FINALLY come out!!

Signed,
AA61hvy and JCS17
 
CPH-R
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 10:19 am

Galaxy5,
a lot of gay people have denounced that couple - especially since it's obvious that at least one of them have some serious issues to deal with.

There are already more than enough states to pass a Constitutional Amendment so all it will take is removing a few morons from the Senate.

ala Wellstone, or?  Insane - I personally can't see why people are bent over backwards aghast of gay marriages. I know some gay people, and they aren't really different than me, apart from their partners sex. And for those who scream about gay marriages not being in the bible, that darn thing also have some fun stuff that most people would like to forget.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 10:57 am

I dont see why its necessary for gays to get married. I mean whats the point. You love each other and thats fine, but why get married?

I see marriage as a security net for the children, and since gays cant have children (not yet anyway!) what s the point.

Yanks are truly crazy!

-Roy
 
AvObserver
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 11:11 am

The point, Indianguy, is that in the U.S., in theory, anyway, people are supposed to have equal rights, as declared in documents like The Constitution and The Emancipation Proclamation. We're hardly there, yet, but we've made a lot of progress. This is just another roadblock in the way of that ideal. In principle, we're NOT supposed to be discriminating in this country, though it still goes on. Now, let me ask you: Why should gays NOT get married, hmm?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 11:35 am

Woo hoo - there goes B753 again with thinly veiled and emotionally charged homophobia masquerading as *concern* for the state of the public process in Massachusetts. For God's sake, get over yourself.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
jaysit
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 11:42 am

My response is "take a flying F*ck," and shove your Bible up your a*se. And your communist manifesto while youre at it.

Two queers marrying in Boston isnt going to affect the general pathetic misery of your wretched hopeless strip mall infected life in Texas. Or Calcutta.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
L-188
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 12:15 pm

For anybody wondering why the Islamic world has the view that the US is full of godless heathens and debauchers, May I suggest that this may be part of the reason.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 12:22 pm

And we're supposed to alter our lives to kowtow to their absurdly distorted views of morality and beg forgiveness? F*ck them. And anyone in India who has a problem with freedom too.

Thank god we're moving past state-sanctioned discrimination and left public lynchings, stonings and executions to the wolves long ago. The people still practicing those things around the world today are just that - animals. Cultural relativism - kiss my American you-know-what.



[Edited 2004-05-14 05:25:26]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
jaysit
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 12:35 pm

"For anybody wondering why the Islamic world has the view that the US is full of godless heathens and debauchers, May I suggest that this may be part of the reason."

Actually being queer is the least of it.

So-called "hetero excess" like parading around in micro mini skirts (that I'm sure youre hypocritical ass JUST loves !), eating pork products, guzzling beer at bars until you can barely drag your butt in an SUV home are the primary reasons.

Besides, why should I give any credence to the views of some bigoted mullah if I don't care about the views of some a.net right wing Christian loser?

Maybe you ought to consider that you have more in common with some crazy prehistoric ignorant mullah than you care to consider.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
lehpron
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 12:44 pm

>> "Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children." <<

Wow, does anyone else see this as paradox? Gay people don't just fall out of the sky, most were straight. Just like most atheists were of some religion at one time, usually childhood.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 12:47 pm

#3 Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.

Thats the funniest thing I have heard in a while  Smile/happy/getting dizzy I'll need to have a word with mom and dad, after them putting a front up for the past 23 years when in truth I came out of the homo baby factory.

Galaxy5, I hope you aren't serious. A 32 year old and 17 year old in a sexual relationship is illegal here - I hope it is in the states too. That is disgusting.

People in Canada are pretty much over it, both proponents and opponents. Even the rad-righters aren't putting much effort in anymore. However, in the states unfortunatley it looks like it will be a battle.

Besides, why should I give any credence to the views of some bigoted mullah if I don't care about the views of some a.net right wing Christian loser?

Priceless. Welcome to my respected user list  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
LH423
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 1:40 pm

CPDC10-30: Depends on the state. I know in Massachusetts and Rhode Island the legal age of consent for heterosexual and homosexual acts is 16.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
MD-90
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Fri May 14, 2004 3:38 pm

I hope you aren't serious. A 32 year old and 17 year old in a sexual relationship is illegal here - I hope it is in the states too.

If you want to know where it would and wouldn't be illegal, check this chart out

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

Jcs could go up to New York, male/male age is 17. In Texas, it was illegal. After the Supreme Court ruling, though, I'm not sure if it still is or not.


In Alabama, the age of consent is 16. Sodomy is, however, illegal. But you can get married at 14? That's strange, but apparently true.
 
sean1234
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 3:08 am

If now gays are allowed to marry, can someone tell me why I can't marry 2 women? The law now permits gays to marry and to continue in this tradition of equal protection under the law; I see reason why we can't join together in union. We all love each other, work normal jobs and want to raise a normal family. Why can't we? Not every principle in the constitution is absolute. I look forward to your comments.

Sean
 
worldoftui
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 3:23 am

CP-DC10-30

........when in truth I came out of the homo baby factory.

LOL  Laugh out loud

Mark
 
seb146
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 3:23 am

Sean1234: The majority of us still believe in sharing our life with only one person whether it be someone of the same gender or opposite gender. I know I am still in love with two of my ex's yet I am with someone else, but I would only want to be with one person. Funny how the heart works.

As far as I know, the liscences that were issued in Multnomah County (Portland, OR) to gays are still as valid as ones issued to heteros. The only difference is, very few churches will perform the ceremony.

All this fuss over a piece of paper. Geez....

GO CANUCKS!!
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 3:24 am

I am glad to see that L-188 shows some insight again.
I wonder why the countries that ALLOW people to freely choose the ONE person they love and want to live with and whom they want supported if something should happen to them have the (America's favorite word) FREEDOM to get married, do not have too much beef with the Islamic world.
MAYBE because they don't shove their arrogant, oppressionist ways on them...

But once again, let FREEDOM RING (I can just hear Sean Hannity's radio show jingle...)
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 3:29 am

I like this one best:

Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people makes you tall.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 3:49 am

"If now gays are allowed to marry, can someone tell me why I can't marry 2 women? "

I've wondered that but then again, would it really affect anyone in a harmful way? I know I'd disapprove of it but I also know it wouldn't affect me in any way.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jaysit
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 4:00 am

""If now gays are allowed to marry, can someone tell me why I can't marry 2 women?"

That is not the point here.
The right here isnt the one to marry more than one person; its the right to marry one person - the same right that you as a heterosexual have. The driving principal here is equality based on what is already provided under law.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 4:01 am

As long as all three people do it voluntarily and all get the same legal rights, then it's no big deal. I think the problems that marriages with more than two people have is in case somebody has a stroke or some brain damage and can't take care of himself anymore. Who's gonna be the person to make the decisions for him/her.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
sean1234
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 4:02 am

BTW I was speaking in the hypothetical. I am not necessarily for or against this gay marriage issue. What I'm saying is that eqaul treatment under the law can really be stretched, being that people have many different notions of marriage and the question being can we accomodate every such notion. If you allow a certain group to now marry that was previously excluded, wouldn't the law have to allow all new circumstances that desire a marriage to proceed in the name of equality?

Sean

 
jaysit
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 4:07 am

But what is the equality principle in a bigamy scenario?

Equal with what?

There has to be a prior existing equality baseline with which to make a comparison.

The right to marriage is not being denied to those who wish to marry a second person. They just have to annull the prior marriage.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
YUL2010
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 4:11 am

I don't know if I'll ever marry my partner. I guess it's because I'm still a bit traditional on the idea that marriage is between a man and a woman. HOWEVER, I do believe that we must have the freedom to choose whom we want to marry; man or woman. Basically, it goes down to what AvObserver said: it's all about equal rights. It's the least we could have.

People are afraid and embarrassed to be labeled as racists. I wish one day it will be the same for homophobes.
"Hotel November Oscar clear to land runway 24L"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 4:20 am

I wish one day it will be the same for homophobes.

They already have to, in terms of professional/political standing.

Socially, however, openly blatant homophobia is still far more widely lauded than racism.... the latter having been relegated only to the very fringes of modern western society.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
sean1234
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 4:50 am

Jaysit- Bigamy I believe is typically associated with deception and circumventing the law, and is not what I was implying.


The principal argument in the gay marriage case is the right to the "equal protection" under the law found in the 14th amendment. Accordingly the right to marry with straight traditional couples should be permitted to gay couples, but not to whom?
 
MD-90
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 5:57 am

Sean, if it's fine for gays to marry (and cripes, 14 year olds in Alabama can marry!), why can't you have two women? Makes as much sense, if not more, than gay marriage.

But why in the world you'd want to have to put up with two women, geez, you know women tend to get their cycles together. Can you imagine TWO wives at that time of the month? Dang...
 
jaysit
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 6:03 am

"Accordingly the right to marry with straight traditional couples should be permitted to gay couples, but not to whom?"

huh?
If youre implying that gays should have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender, they do. Its just a sham, and would fail to implicate a right to gay marriage. So your analogy is a circular one that fails to address the fundamental premise which is that the equal right is based on the desire to marry someone - a single someone - of your choice, and based on the same notions of desire, love, lust, contractual agreements that straights have.

"But why in the world you'd want to have to put up with two women, geez, you know women tend to get their cycles together. Can you imagine TWO wives at that time of the month? Dang..."

With comments like that, its no wonder that Texas is at the bottom of the IQ pit.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
johnboy
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 10:31 pm

Although a majority of the states *might* pass the Constitutional Amendment, (I'm still not sure about that one, times will change), the Congress of the United States will NEVER gather enough votes to codify discrimination into the Constitution.

I'd like to think that the elected legislators would see the big picture, but speaking on "the downlow," there are enough closeted gays up on the Hill, that they'd NEVER be allowed to pass such a preposterous amendment, and last time I looked that's part of the deal.

People may wrap themselves in the American flag, and Sandy Rios of the Concerned Women of America (a woefull misnomer if there ever were one) may bitch and moan about "traditional values", but guess what?

There WILL be gay marriages all across this nation, and that's a good thing (mea culpa to Martha).
 
F9Widebody
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 11:30 pm

Hate to stir up the pot here, but why should gays be able to get "married?" The definition of marriage is the Legal Union between a man and a woman. I know it has been brought up before, but I think it is a good point. I am not against gays getting married, just it being called marriage; because it isn't marriage. Call them garriages for all I care. If companies don't honor garriages in benefits packages, etc. that is their problem, not something that should force us into rewriting the definition of a word used for centuries - and one that many people regard with much sanctity.

Regards
YES URLS in signature!!!
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sat May 15, 2004 11:51 pm

I like that "garriages" idea. Pretty funny.
The problem is though, that your country claims to have equal rights for everybody (more like every citizen) and thus you can't give some people a privilege that other people do not get.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
LH423
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sun May 16, 2004 12:12 am

On an interesting note: I saw a Dutch passport yesterday and for those familiar with European passports, in many countries the passport will either feature a woman's maiden name (is she's married) or if she got married and didn't change her name it will say "wife of [husband's surname]". In this Dutch passport it featured the man's surname and underneath said "husband of...". I looked at the guy and thought to myself "hmmm...well. Don't I know something about you!"

At any rate. This is progress. Equality for all. Yes, it breaks tradition, but tradition was meant to be broken. If it weren't for that, we'd still have lots of institutions that are now seen as outdated or even shocking to us that they ever existed.

It's just change. Americans aren't as receptive to change as some people, but I think with time, people will realize that gay marriage is not some detriment to society, that our pillars of society and our institutions are not going to crumble around us, and that life will continue as it has for generations, except that now everyone will be on a slightly more level playing field.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
flyboy36y
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sun May 16, 2004 12:25 am

Okay, Let me say this again.... not allowing same-sex ,marraige is not the same as not allowing homosexuals to marry, therefore it is NOT a violation of eaqual protection.

Under the current sustem homosexuals can have mixed-sex marriges (ie a gay man marries a gay woman or a gay woman marries a straight man or a gay man marries a straight woman). Likewise, heterosexuals can have a mixed-sex marrige.

Nobody, not homosexuals nor heterosexuals can have a same-sex marraige. In other words, two straight men cannot get married either.

So its not like gays can't marry, they just cant marry people of the same gender.... NOBODY, regardless of sexual orientation can marry someone of the same gender.

Because we in the US attach so much crap like "relligion" and "love" to what the government should really only see as a civil union, we cannot easily see that a "straight" wedding does not mean that either of the participants really are straight. I think same sex wedding should be legal, but if they are not its really not an equal-protection constitutional issue.

 
rev3oh2
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sun May 16, 2004 5:06 am

Usher....The question of equal right is a good one. And one reason that a large part of the argument against the "right" to gay marriage comes from within the church is this:

Our Declaration of Independence contains these words:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The Creator mentioned above nowhere calls for any sort of same-sex marital arrangement, and in scripture handed down affirms the one-man, one-woman relationship.

Of course this position is blasted right and left, including on this forum, as some sort of anti-gay bigotry and homophobia, etc. But the position is a consistent one.
...let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sun May 16, 2004 5:09 am

Well if the pursuit of happiness is obstructed through not being able to get married, I would say it's a different picture, eh?

Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
MD-90
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sun May 16, 2004 7:11 am

Well, my pursuit of happiness is obstructed because I can't be married to two women at once.

Twice the sexy women, and they can talk to each other so together they don't have to bother me so much.



I am bummed about this picture: it's not legal.  Big grin
 
rev3oh2
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sun May 16, 2004 9:08 am

Well if the pursuit of happiness is obstructed through not being able to get married, I would say it's a different picture, eh?

Sure, but those who take God seriously, as he reveals himself in scripture, realize that pursuit of happiness and pursuit of any fleshly pleasure one happens to fancy are two different things. And that goes for anyone!

Really, though, the battle is a political one at this level, with the vote of the people being the eventual deciding factor. But even if same-sex marriage is given approval in some states, the church is still under no obligation to give its approval to such unions. Not that many same-sex couples care about this.

...let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
 
johnboy
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Sun May 16, 2004 11:05 pm

"But even if same-sex marriage is given approval in some states, the church is still under no obligation to give its approval to such unions. Not that many same-sex couples care about this."

Thank God (pun intended) there's more than one "church" in this country. Unitarian-Universalists, the United Church of Christ, and Metropolitan Community Churches all give blessings to gay unions.

BTW, here's an interesting "New York Times" newspaper article that hints the prospects of a backlash against gay marriage might just be a tempest in a teapot, whipped up by the same names you hear OVER and OVER again.

I think people aren't just listening to the same tired rhetoric--they now have pictures that show happy couples, and stories of long-term relationships that should be validated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/16/national/16MARR.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1084712280-QQTot/0cxiklp1pCmM9vtw
 
LH423
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RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Mon May 17, 2004 9:46 am

Tonight at 0001 Eastern Time, the City of Cambridge, Masschusetts will begin issuing marriage licences to same-sex couples. I will be there to witness this historic event and will report back how it went.

LH423
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scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Mon May 17, 2004 10:10 am

I don't think about any kind of the problems with Gays marriages and it not have real world either.
 
ConcordeBoy
Topic Author
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Gays Legal To Marry Next Week-- USA Ready?

Tue May 18, 2004 1:42 am

...so it has begun.

The media is being incredibly quiet about this-- both Conservative and Liberal alike. Only small mentions. Somewhat surprising.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!

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