ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 6:41 am

Now lets get theis straight - I'm not talking about who is right and wrong with regards to the Palestinian situation, nor do I condemn terrorism. But what is unacceptable is the fact that Israeli troops have fired into a crowd of unarmed demonstrators causing multiple casualties. We all know that Israeli prosecutions of the guilty parties are likely to be virtually non-existent (which hardly sends out a good image), so isn't it about time that the international community sends out the strongest possible message that these actions are unacceptable for a nation that calls itself a democracy? I.e. if Israel does not punish the perpetrators in the strongest terms then the UN should seek to address the situation by the imposition of sanctions. The UN has done this with other nations who massacre unarmed civilians so I don't see the difference.

BTW before this turns into a flame war I concur that Israel has the right to defend itself from terrorism, but in this instance the casualties were unarmed civilians and definitely not a situation where Israeli troops were acting in self defence.

Any comments?
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 6:43 am

The UN is very known for always condeming Israel, but not saying a word to other nations that do far worse things. Israel has gotten used to the anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic views of the UN, and more or less ignores the organization. As does the US, for similar reasons.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ryanb741
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 6:48 am

Well possibly, but a UN condemnation of this massacre is hardly anti semetic. It is simply a condemnation of the killing of unarmed demonstrators.

Look at the US in Iraq with the Abu Ghraib situation. Sure atrocities were committed but the perpetrators are facing justice. This is highly unlikely to happen in Israel, which kind of sends out the message that it is semi-acceptable to kill the civilians.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Goose
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 6:52 am

This is highly unlikely to happen in Israel, which kind of sends out the message that it is semi-acceptable to kill the civilians.

It doesn't help dispel that myth, with the fact that the IDF is quite private about its internal workings, court-martials, and so on. I don't think we could find out if those troops were facing charges for what they've done, as it would be under the catch-all "matter of national security" clause.

The IDF is not known for openly charging or reprimanding soldiers which use poor judgement, like the US Army with their disgraces-in-uniforms in Abu Gharib.

The crowd was unarmed? Hrm, that's rather unique for Palestinian demonstrators......
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
leviticus
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 6:55 am

Would not a resolution be required ? It would have to pass the security council, so maybe in theory but never in the real world  Laugh out loud
 
jutes85
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 6:56 am

Why doesn't the UN sanction the US for what they are doing in Iraq? Its all about protecting themselves from terrorists.
nothing
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 7:32 am

Why doesn't the UN sanction the US for what they are doing in Iraq?

Because:
1) the USA was/is completely within the realm of legality for its invasion of Iraq
2) what nation's idiot populace wants to be the first to sever economic ties with the USA? Here's their chance to stand up and be counted.  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
CPH-R
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 7:46 am

1) the USA was/is completely within the realm of legality for its invasion of Iraq
Not true - the UN charter strictly forbids one member country from attacking another member country without UN approval, in form of a resolution. That's what they did the first time around, but this time the evidence were so thin, that the US couldn't gather a majority to get a resolution, that precisely specified that Iraq had failed to comply and that the US & it's Coalition of the Billing were permitted to attack in order to completely rid Iraq of the WMD. And don't give me that crap about resolution 1441, because it does not give the OK for an invastion. Read for yourself: http://www.un.int/usa/sres-iraq.htm

Also, it will be impossible to impose any sanctions on Israel, since their sugar daddy, the US, will veto anything that remotely hurts Israel.
 
damirc
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 7:48 am

You all forget that the USA will veto any attempt to pass any resolution that would sanction Israel.

Happened before, will happen again.

D.
 
AGM100
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 7:52 am

Just as a matter of discussion .. what exactly could the UN sanction against Israel?
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 7:58 am

As all of you know, there will NEVER be any resolution against the fascist state of Israel because the US will always veto any such proposal.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:00 am

As all of you know, there will NEVER be any resolution against the fascist state of Israel because the US will always veto any such proposal.

I'm so glad to see that some Germans haven't learned their lesson........

The US really is a protector for the Jews....perhaps the only major western country that goes out of its way to protect them.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
bravo45
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:02 am

I am sure there have been many many many more incidents like this or incidents that truly require an action against Israel according to tru justice, but so far nothing has ever been done, nor do I expect anything like this to be done in the near future. Have to say I do agree with you.
 
L.1011
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:03 am

The UN doesn't bother because A. We would veto anything. B. Even if they managed to pass something, we would ignore it. We are Israel's largest trading partner, with the world's most diverse economy, and there's not all that much that the UN could do. They have no fighting force, and we could kick them out of New York. They know damn well that something like that is a stupid move on their part, and they won't do anything.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:06 am

Hey RJ, since you are such a buff on Zionist issues you will be very capable of telling me that the US did know about the concentration camps.
BUT alas, you are THE expert on everything because you go to Hofstra High...
Anyway, I am more than glad to inform that I am not of German decent, which might surprise an ignorant as you are. There is more than black and white in the world. That's why anybody with a conscience should condemn the fascist Israeli policies.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
ryanb741
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:09 am

Hey guys before this descends into an all out flame war (now there's a surprise) I should point out that this relates very little to the US Abu Ghraib incident as in that case the perpetrators are facing justice. My point here is that the Israelis are unlikely to seriously prosecute those guilty, and that is the even bigger crime (as if the massacre isn't bad enough!)
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Arsenal@LHR
Posts: 7510
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:10 am

A resolution would get vetoed before your eyes by you-know-who, so therefore it would be a pointless exercise. Democracy, fairness and justice are fine attributes only when things go your way, if not, then do whatever the hell is necessary to block it. Fine thing the UN isn't it? Do you know which nation holds the record for vetoed resolutions? Not hard i tell you.


In Arsene we trust!!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:11 am

Anyway, I am more than glad to inform that I am not of German decent,

Good. I don't want anybody as low as you spoiling the fantastic image I have of Germans after visiting there recently.

Hey RJ, since you are such a buff on Zionist issues you will be very capable of telling me that the US did know about the concentration camps.

That has been rumored. There is no conclusive evidence that FDR, or Churchill, knew exactly what was going on. They decided to focus on winning the war as fast as possible rather than bombing Auschwitz. Anyhow, what does that have to do with it? Comparing the US government to the Nazi government.......?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ryanb741
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:12 am

BTW L.1011 you know that's bullshit. You seriously telling me that US isolation from the rest of the world would be something the US could take in its stride? No damn way, the effect on the US economy would be crippling and as for the UN having no fighting force - well the UN represents the vast majority of the world and I think you would find that a USA vs rest of the world military contest would be no contest at all!
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Horus
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:16 am

Some European countries have banned the import of goods that have been produced in the occupied territories, but I guess there are many who will call this anti-semetic.

Also if sanctions were placed, the US will just ignore it and make up for the loss of any trade by pumping in billions of extra dollars in grants.
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2530
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:18 am

RJ, I will try to explain, so that even you can understand.

The US didn't give a shit about the Jews in WW2.

Anyway, you are too biased to even try to make conversation with.
I really suggest that you go to Israel and sign up for military service.
Then you can live up to your dream to kill as many non-Jews as possible.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:22 am

The US didn't give a shit about the Jews in WW2.

This is true to an extent.....However, the US learned a lesson from the Holocaust/WWII and that has been reflected in our policy towards Jews/Israel.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:43 am

Regardless of your veiws on UN sactions and the overall US policy toward Jews, the only factor inportant in this whole issue is,

HWIKKKKKK .......... SSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ..........

Not sure of the spelling but that's the sound of america being pussy-whipped by Israel !
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Horus
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:48 am

The US and UN slap sanctions on Iraq for occuping a foreign land and brutalizing its people.

Israel on the other hand (who are accused of the same thing but with even more brutality) get billions of dollars pumped into their failing economy and enjoy the backing of the US in whatever actions they take.


The US attacks the Iraq because they have broken UN resolutions

Israel on the other hand (who are accused of the same thing and have broken even more resolutions) get billions of dollars pumped into their failing economy and enjoy the backing of the US in whatever actions they take.


But I guess double standards and hypocrisy will always exist
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 8:56 am

Just for the record: The UN Security Council has just today issued a resolution against the recent demolition of houses by Israel:

UN press release: [...] The Council voted 14 in favour, with the United States abstaining, to adopt a resolution expressing its grave concern regarding the humanitarian situation of Palestinians made homeless in the Rafah area, and calling for the provision of emergency assistance. [...]
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 9:04 am

The US and UN slap sanctions on Iraq for occuping a foreign land and brutalizing its people.

Israel on the other hand (who are accused of the same thing but with even more brutality) get billions of dollars pumped into their failing economy and enjoy the backing of the US in whatever actions they take.


Israel is an ALLY of the US and doesn't pose a threat to our interests in the region. Israel wasn't shooting SAM missiles at our warplanes every other week too.

The US attacks the Iraq because they have broken UN resolutions

Israel on the other hand (who are accused of the same thing and have broken even more resolutions) get billions of dollars pumped into their failing economy and enjoy the backing of the US in whatever actions they take.


Once again, Iraq was a threat to us. Israel is our best friend in the region. See the difference now?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Horus
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 9:14 am

Once again, Iraq was a threat to us. Israel is our best friend in the region. See the difference now?

O, believe me I see the double standards and hypocrisy very clearly.
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 9:16 am

For some Horus, the world does not revolve around the UN and their sanctions! The UN has proven its inability to be an effective world body.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Horus
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 9:19 am

The UN has proven its inability to be an effective world body.

Let me re-phrase that for you:

The UN has proven its inability to be an effective world body to take commands from the US
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
david b.
Posts: 2894
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 9:20 am

Once again, Iraq was a threat to us. Israel is our best friend in the region. See the difference now?

LOL What bullshit Big grin Iraq a threat? LOL

For some Horus, the world does not revolve around the UN and their sanctions! The UN has proven its inability to be an effective world body.


Yea, for those who think they are above the law.

Good. I don't want anybody as low as you spoiling the fantastic image I have of Germans after visiting there recently.


LOW??? Look in the mirror

[Edited 2004-05-20 02:27:59]
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Russophile
Posts: 1304
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 9:55 am

What happened on 11/09/2001 was NOT because some Muslims are jealous of McDonalds. It WAS because of the American governments unfettered support for terrorism, so long as it is ONLY committed by Israelis (or Americans) . Maybe, these 'terrorists' (or should they now be called freedom fighters?) were justified after all to plow those aircraft into the World Trade Center killing thousands of innocent people.

After all, this is PRECISELY the type of action that the US turns a blind eye to when it is perpetrated by ISRAEL!!

C'mon America -- it is high time that you stop the total hypocrisy. You CANNOT threaten to veto a UN resolution unless a call to Palestinians to stop the terrorism is inserted, and when it is inserted, you refuse to show to the world that you are against terrorism -- in all of it's forms -- by voting in favour of the resolution. Remember, you are either with us -- or you are against us. And the more that America blindly stands up for Israel, the more you show the world you are 'against us' -- thereby making any attacks on you 100% justifiable.

And yes, I believe that sanctions should be placed on Israel. And I believe that sanctions should also be placed on Palestine. Until such time as both countries stop the cycle of terrorism against each other.

[Edited 2004-05-20 03:00:59]
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 10:11 am

IMO I think that Israel is at time too brutal in its responses causing more collateral damage than necessary. I understand why they respond the way they do, but I can still say its wrong. I'll also point out that I make this comment from the comfort of my home having just returned from a visit to the local mall and the last worry on my mind was whether a suicide bomber was going to blow himself up as I stood in line waiting to pay for my purchases. So obviously, I have the luxury of not being in the shoes of an Israeli citizen that has to deal with those concerns on a daily basis.

As to the question of sanctions, the point is largely moot. Even if the US abstained from a security council resolution and allow sanctions to be imposed (I can't imagine a scenario where the US would vote for sanctions), the US would not participate in the sanction program - Congress would never allow it. AIPAC, the American-Israeli Political Action Committee, wields tremendous influence on Capitol Hill and the reality is that as much as we might want to pressure Israel to act a certain way, when push came to shove we're not going to force them. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just stating a fact. For those of you interested in the subject of PAC influence on the Hill, take a look at THE POWER GAME, a book by Hedrick Smith. It's very good.

Without US participation, the sanctions wouldn't be effective. And as for the UN or NATO trying to forcibly stop US vessels go to Israel, well we know that's not going to happen - cliche, you and what army applies.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 10:23 am

Even without AIPAC, Congress would still never allow it. The Congressional Majority Leader, Tom DeLay, is an Evangelical Christian who is more supportive of Israel than most Jews!
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jutes85
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 10:38 am

well the UN represents the vast majority of the world and I think you would find that a USA vs rest of the world military contest would be no contest at all!

That is funny, it made my day.  Laugh out loud

Israel on the other hand (who are accused of the same thing but with even more brutality) get billions of dollars pumped into their failing economy and enjoy the backing of the US in whatever actions they take.

Failing economy? You are the one to talk. Israel is a paradise in the middle-east because they don't focus on ways to invade and kill their neighbors.
nothing
 
N79969
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 10:48 am


The people of Israel need to wrest control of their country from hard-line settler and get rid of that thug Ariel Sharon. It would be in US interests to see regime change in Israel but since Dick Cheney and GWB are so afraid of losing a single Jewish vote in Florida, they have abandoned US interests in favor of their electoral interests.

**************
Russophile...By your "logic" your beloved Chechens are freedom fighters fighting unjust Russian oppression. Why not quit your own massive hypocrisy before condemning the United States
 
rjpieces
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 10:52 am

I think you would find that a USA vs rest of the world military contest would be no contest at all!

Seeing that the US military is larger than the next 15 largest countries combined, I think you should rethink this comment....Unless of course you were saying that for the US military it would be no contest.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:02 am

I generally support Israel and our guarantee of their right to exist.

However I don't think of them as much of a valuable ally. They are certainly no Britain or Japan. They receive billions in aid from the US and use some of that money to buy US Treasury notes and bills-- thus lending us back our own money.

President Bush has basically surrended US interests to Ariel Sharon's whims and by extension the fanatical settlers in Gaza and the West Bank.

[Edited 2004-05-20 04:03:30]
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:06 am

Unless of course you were saying that for the US military it would be no contest.

Of course not, our Canadian Army will demolish anything the US throws at us. Our mighty helicopters, that need 40 hours of maitenence for every 1 hour flown, will destroy American cities. And our troops, who's numbers are fewer then that of the NYPD, will march into the US and quickly whip out anyone in its way. We will remove our only two submarines from West Edmonton Mall and use them agaist the "pathetic" US Navy.

That would be fun, watching the world take on the US. Even if you defeat the Military, almost every citizen owns firearms, so you also have to deal with 200 million people.
nothing
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:09 am

almost every citizen owns firearms,

A slight exaggeration!  Smile
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:09 am

However I don't think of them as much of a valuable ally.

Israel, in a way, is on the front lines of terrorist against freedom and democracy. So if you stop supporting Israel, the Arab world will be crawling with idiots that proclaim Jihad.
nothing
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:13 am

A slight exaggeration!

Lets just say that the bad parts of LA, New York, Chicago and Detroit have more firearms then that of the Canadian Military. And most of the American people on this forum say that they have a gun.
nothing
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:17 am

So if you stop supporting Israel, the Arab world will be crawling with idiots that proclaim Jihad.

You are quite funny Jutes85.........

If the US stopped supporting Israel. Israel would eventually be forced to let go of Palestine due to continuous resistance and the world would become a much better place..............
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
jutes85
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:22 am

Israel would eventually be forced to let go of Palestine due to continuous resistance and the world would become a much better place..............

Yeah, you're right. The Arabs have proven to be peaceful and loving individuals.  Insane
nothing
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:24 am

>>>BTW L.1011 you know that's bullshit. You seriously telling me that US isolation from the rest of the world would be something the US could take in its stride? No damn way, the effect on the US economy would be crippling<<<

Yeah. It would absolutedly wreck our massive trade deficit with the rest of the world. Oops, that would actually hurt the rest of the world.

>>>and as for the UN having no fighting force - well the UN represents the vast majority of the world and I think you would find that a USA vs rest of the world military contest would be no contest at all!<<<

That's right, you can kill each other off (as history shows you do very proficiently) without our help.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:40 am

I'm not entirely sure why some folks think that he UN is any way relevant to anything internationally, except maybe, being a money-laundering tool or a propaganda scam for the extortion and redistribution assets internationally. Regards...Jack

all best; jack
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:46 am

An interesting website that might help explain why Israel ignores the UN:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/unantisem.html
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 11:52 am

The US ignored the UN when they went into Iraq, why in the hell can't Israel do it. - BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS!
nothing
 
cptkrell
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 12:01 pm

"The US ignored the UN when they went into Iraq, why the hell can't Israel do it. - BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS!"

Ummmm...clarify, please. Do you mean why can't the UN ignore Israel or vice-versa? Not to argue one way or the other (I still think the UN is a non-relevant collection of scam artists), but I really didn't understand your your post. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
jutes85
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 12:04 pm

Why can't Israel ignore the UN, but the US can? They are both fighting terrorism.
nothing
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time For UN Sanctions Against Israel?

Thu May 20, 2004 12:10 pm

Cptkrell, Jutes was making the point that a double standard applies to Israel.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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