777236ER
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Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 7:08 am

I thought the war was to find WMDs bring democracy to Iraq?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3760487.stm

Former B'athist, friend of the CIA and in the eyes of many, a US puppet.

Sounds familiar? Just looked what happened in Iran...

[Edited 2004-05-30 00:10:19]
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leviticus
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 7:52 am

No need to be ironic, if you don't already know the WMDs are found... And who cares about this guys past ? He certainly won't be in that position for a long time. (And yes he is a puppet, just like Hamid Karzai, but it is not like anybody anticipated something else.)
 
Horus
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 8:30 am

Leviticus, it don't make it right though. It's this double-standards, under the table dealings and hypocrisy that is making the Arab (and many in the Western world) angry with the US's foreign policy especially in this part of the world.
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Klaus
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Leviticus

Sun May 30, 2004 8:31 am

Leviticus: No need to be ironic, if you don't already know the WMDs are found.

No, they weren´t. There´s still no sign of WMDs in production or deployable before the invasion.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 8:50 am

No, they weren´t. There´s still no sign of WMDs in production or deployable before the invasion.

those 10,000 Kurds that got VX used on them were pretty sure he had WMDS at some point.. the US soldiers treated for sarin exposure a few days ago when a roadside bomb sprayed them with the shit are pretty sure he had something at some point.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
777236ER
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 9:08 am

those 10,000 Kurds that got VX used on them were pretty sure he had WMDS at some point

Why did that make Iraq a threat in 2002?

the US soldiers treated for sarin exposure a few days ago when a roadside bomb sprayed them with the shit are pretty sure he had something at some point.

A vat of sarin from the Iran-Iraq was does not make Iraq a threat to the US and her allies.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Klaus
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777236ER

Sun May 30, 2004 10:04 am


777236ER: exactly.
 
L-188
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 1:33 pm

No but the minimum of 50 shells that he failed to account for do. And that doesn't account for missing shells of other gasses

The production of missiles that where outside the range limits of the 91 resoluntions are. Or do you forget that Kuwaiti mall that got nailed.




[Edited 2004-05-30 06:34:55]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 1:49 pm

It's interesting to see that the Beeb apparently missed out on an important piece of info: Iyad Allawi was the man that delivered the notorious 45-minute remark to the CIA

Exiled Allawi was responsible for 45-minute WMD claim
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=526008

-snip-
He is the person through whom the controversial claim was channelled that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction could be operational in 45 minutes.
-snip-
 
Klaus
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L-188

Sun May 30, 2004 8:39 pm

L-188: No but the minimum of 50 shells that he failed to account for do. And that doesn't account for missing shells of other gasses

Boo-hoo! That´s surely been a reason to cancel the UN inspections and kill thousands of iraqis while invading and occupying the country! The threat to the poor iraqi artillery gunners having to shoot that rusting garbage would have been greater than to anybody else...

In the words of a western scientist: "[the chemical agent] would probably not be healthy to drink, but hardly dangerous after all that time [since 1991]"


L-188: The production of missiles that where outside the range limits of the 91 resoluntions are.

Just barely. And with the precision of a shotgun at long range. The Al Samoud missile program had already been uncovered by the UN inspectors and was being destroyed before the invasion. Again another argument for letting the inspectors do their job!


L-188: Or do you forget that Kuwaiti mall that got nailed.

That was done with short-range silk worm cruise missiles which Iraq was allowed to have. The Al Samoud missiles had already been destroyed and were never used.


You´re demonstrating exactly how the american public was duped into the attack: Fuzzy information and unsubstantiated allegations, falling apart at the slightest scrutiny. Only those wanting to believe would fall for it.
 
L-188
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 8:43 pm

And yet a couple of longbed trucks where captured with those Al Samoud missiles in the back under canvas.

Really great distruction job there.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Klaus
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L-188

Sun May 30, 2004 9:07 pm

L-188: And yet a couple of longbed trucks where captured with those Al Samoud missiles in the back under canvas.
Really great distruction job there.


The US invasion preempted the UN inspections pretty soon after starting to dismantle the Al Samoud program. If there were missiles left, your thanks should go to Washington, not to the inspectors!

You´re at your final line of defense, againBig grin
 
L-188
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 9:16 pm

Hardly.

reply #9

The Al Samoud missiles had already been destroyed....

So those ones in the back of the trucks didn't exist?

Only those wanting to believe would fall for it.

Do really need to post that long list of quotes from people like Ciriac who made comments before the war stating they felt that Iraq's WMD program was a threat?



Tell me, you call the American public as "duped" Is that because the European public hasn't been told about the bribes that Saddam was paying to French officals and other UN nations to vote against action against them? Or how about that 20 grand he was paying out to all those palistinian bombers every time one of them blew up a bus? Why where both Abdul Nidal and Abu Abbas lving in Bagdad? Why can't people accept that the war on terror is larger then the Taliban? It should be fought on all fronts not just the crakers one.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Klaus
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L-188

Sun May 30, 2004 11:18 pm

L-188: So those ones in the back of the trucks didn't exist?

Didn´t know about that being the case; I´d be interested in any corroboration if available.
Still, it´s basically irrelevant as they were being destroyed before Bush ordered the invasion. I don´t remember if they had managed to destroy all of them before they had to leave before the attack. If there were any missiles left, the inspectors would have found them sooner or later. As the Kay report confirmed, the UN inspectors did a very good job in the time they had. Kay found nothing of relevance that the UN inspectors had overlooked. Hence his quote: "We were all wrong!"


L-188: Do really need to post that long list of quotes from people like Ciriac who made comments before the war stating they felt that Iraq's WMD program was a threat?

Wrong. Almost nobody believed that Saddam was an immediate threat that would merit the abortion of the UN inspections and an immediate invasion. Almost everybody believed that the compliance with the UN restrictions had to be enforced - that´s why the UN inspectors went into Iraq.


L-188: Tell me, you call the American public as "duped"

Yes. None of the primary "reasons" given by the Bush administration has panned out: No threat, no WMDs, no links to 9-11, nothing.


L-188: Is that because the European public hasn't been told about the bribes that Saddam was paying to French officals and other UN nations to vote against action against them?

That has been discussed earlier and it´s a myth. Upholding international law hasn´t just started in 2003 for most countries. No bribe required. It´s simply the right thing to do. Which had once mattered in US policies, too, but that´s been a different era.


L-188: Or how about that 20 grand he was paying out to all those palistinian bombers every time one of them blew up a bus? Why where both Abdul Nidal and Abu Abbas lving in Bagdad? Why can't people accept that the war on terror is larger then the Taliban? It should be fought on all fronts not just the crakers one.

Saddam had nothing to do with 9-11 as the Bush administration and Fox "News" sold the invasion to the US public. Saddam was intensely opposed to Al Qaeda and the other islamists. After the invasion, Iraq has become a booming fertilizer plant for multiple harvests of fresh terrorists all over the region. Congratulations!  Insane


Give it up. The reasoning for the war has fallen apart beyong any hope of salvaging it. The emperor has no clothes, and everybody can see it now. The only remaining question is how to clean up after this monumental disaster.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Sun May 30, 2004 11:58 pm

When will the dear European learn? Perhaps after they fall back into nationalistic wars...........Again.

Upholding international law hasn´t just started in 2003 for most countries.

Don't you love how countries pick and choose which parts of this so called "international law" they will enforce?

The only remaining question is how to clean up after this monumental disaster.

Forgetting the WMD claim for a second, you see removing a cruel dictator, freeing millions of people, and the tons of positive benefits that the people of Iraq now have as a "monumental disaster?" And you would have preferred that a dictator who killed thousands stay in power? Didn't we learn any lessons on this Memorial Day Weekend Klaus?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
777236ER
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Mon May 31, 2004 12:28 am

When will the dear European learn?

When was that last time we installed a puppet leader in a country after invading based on a lie or gross negligence?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Klaus
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Rjpieces

Mon May 31, 2004 12:56 am

Rjpieces: Don't you love how countries pick and choose which parts of this so called "international law" they will enforce?

That will probably be why the other western nations even agreed to be held accountable at the International Criminal Court while the Bush administration went so far as to threaten the Netherlands with a military invasion in case of the indictment of a US citizen before the ICC. In light of Guantanamo, Abu Graib and others this decision looks consistent, but somewhat ... peculiar.


Rjpieces: Forgetting the WMD claim for a second,

That being the primary motivation given to the world, it is not possible to "forget" about it! As convenient as that would now be for you.


Rjpieces: you see removing a cruel dictator, freeing millions of people, and the tons of positive benefits that the people of Iraq now have as a "monumental disaster?"

Bombing to rubble every alternative way to a better future for Iraq, violating international law and human rights in the process, instigating a whole new wave of hate through a stupidly conducted occupation that reminds more and more of what Israel is doing in the occupied areas, disrupting and trying to sabotage international treaties left and right, openly denigrating, insulting and threatening your own allies - yes, that qualifies!


Rjpieces: And you would have preferred that a dictator who killed thousands stay in power? Didn't we learn any lessons on this Memorial Day Weekend Klaus?

Ah, the kids borrowing their ancestors´ mantle of history again!  Insane

You need to think about how to kick dictators out of power. Just going on a rampage vigilante-style against the overwhelmingly negative response of the entire planet is supremely stupid as long as you don´t really have "divine insight". You would need to be right about everything - instead, it seems they were wrong about almost everything!

There were alternatives before. Now the situation is a lot more difficult.
 
L.1011
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Mon May 31, 2004 11:34 am

My good friend Klaus,

You see, the United States would gladly agree to international law if it made any frickin sense! The United Nations is a pathetic joke. It is a worthless debate society with no purpose. That fate befalls any organization that both includes the United States, United Kingdom, Germany, France, and Japan, and North Korea, Iran, Libya, and Syria. The International Criminal Court is a liberal kangaroo court which only has purpose for liberals who want to sue American politicians for war crimes because there's an (R) next to their name. If the free, prosperous world would get together and form a real international organization that could act united, with free trade, and open skies, and actually excecuted the novel concept of doing something and not talking, we would welcome them with open arms, unlike the League of *oops, sorry, I mean* United Nations. *cough*Rwanda*cough*
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Mon May 31, 2004 12:29 pm

America will pay a very heavy price for not learning its lessons from history.

You know I pray that GWB wins the election and COMES BACK. That way it wont be someone else having to carry the baggage.

-Roy
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Mon May 31, 2004 12:42 pm

those 10,000 Kurds that got VX used on them were pretty sure he had WMDS at some point..

25 Years ago isn't a justification for a war in 2003, my friend. He DID have them. If you've bothered to read on here, everyone agrees with that. He used them. The fact seems to be most, if not all of them, were destroyed during the '91 war, or shortly after. Holdouts like you who seem to insist they're there in great numbers have missed the boat-and that boat seems to be under the command of George W. Bush.

the US soldiers treated for sarin exposure a few days ago when a roadside bomb sprayed them with the shit are pretty sure he had something at some point.

I've been waiting for some rightie nut to say "See! There they are!" over this one small explosive. Hell, you have no proof this came from Saddam, and wasn't imported into the damn nation.

Wake up. The WMD's your hero President Bush went to war over, aren't there. But that's ok-changing th reasons a dozen times seems to be the rage in D.C.

L-188, kissing that Republican's rear end again, eh? Tell me-again-you're not a Republican. The more you say it, the less I believe it.  Laugh out loud

L.1011, until you've live, oh 25 or 30 years, don't lecture adults about things you don't know a damn thing about, and have no clue about, OK? You haven't been around long enough to have a clue- stop acting as if you've got a Masters in History, or current event, OK? You don't. You're a kid, trying to act like you're hot shit, and you're not. Someone feeds you the crap you put on here-prolly mommy and daddy, so until you do group up, don't presume to lecture.
 
L.1011
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Mon May 31, 2004 11:08 pm

What? Alpha attacking the messenger and ignoring the message? I've never seen this before.  Insane
 
777236ER
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Mon May 31, 2004 11:09 pm

The International Criminal Court is a liberal kangaroo court which only has purpose for liberals who want to sue American politicians for war crimes because there's an (R) next to their name

L.1011, that in itself discredits everything you say.

Do you realise that John Kerry is CONSERVATIVE compared to most other places? What makes you think it's a 'liberal kangaroo court'?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Mon May 31, 2004 11:21 pm

L.1011, you're just a messanger of ignorance. Not, maybe becuase you're dumb or anything. But you don't have enough life experience, in my view, to make decent opinions on any of this stuff being discussed here-maybe acne is more up your alley, or dating girls. But for you-a kid-to lecture me, or anyone else on here who is a lot older than you, on subjects, is laughable, and it's really insulting to have you try to tell me what the world is about.


Again, when you grow up, maybe I'll pay more attention. But for now, you won't even be worth my time.
 
L-188
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Mon May 31, 2004 11:21 pm

Do you realise that John Kerry is CONSERVATIVE compared to most other places?

Yup, more evidence that a lot of the world has lost it's mind Big grin

But seriously, Kerry is very left wing.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
go canada!
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:25 am

Iraqis have picked their leader, not the usa.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Klaus
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L-188

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:30 am

L-188: But seriously, Kerry is very left wing.

...of a very conservative party, if anything. Or you´ve got no idea about what "left wing" means in the real world.
 
go canada!
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:38 am

Left Wing is the rabble on the labour goverments back benches, not the democrat leadership.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:47 am

What great insight from one of our premier members:
"Rjpieces: And you would have preferred that a dictator who killed thousands stay in power? Didn't we learn any lessons on this Memorial Day Weekend Klaus?"

Since you, RJ, are always on top of everything (except girls, of course), you probably have just forgotten, that we do not have Memorial Day (or President's Day or Labor Day (in September)) in Germany.
But an expert in international affairs, customs and politics probably just made a typo, eh?

So before you open your mouth again, maybe, just maybe, THINK first.
In other countries we don't give a shit about US holidays.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:06 am

What's the matter Ushermittwoch, couldn't find a thread to denounce Israel in?

that we do not have Memorial Day (or President's Day or Labor Day (in September)) in Germany.

I'm well aware...But if you have been reading the threads instead of just jumping to the anti-American ones, you would have seen several threads about Memorial Day in the US, which is why I made the comment. It didn't come from nowhere. Why don't YOU try reading next time!
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:21 am

#1: There is no mentioning of Israel in this thread, thus no need to hijack this thread. That is not my style.
#2: If that was your intention, why didn't you state that or provide a link?
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
L.1011
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RE: Iyad Allawi - Shah Of Iraq

Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:10 am

Well Alpha, it is very possible that that is just a cover for you not having an argument! As I've said repeatedly, liberal response to losing an argument: call winner "uninformed", blame it on the Republicans, blame it on Dubya, call winner a nazi, racist, or bigot.

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