rsmith6621a
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Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:58 pm


The Federal Minimum Wage has not increased since 1997...during Clintons admin it was raised 2 time but under Bush it has not been raised once...Ill bet because GWB has his pockets full of CEOs that encorage him no to...or is this another sign that the economy is not doing as well as it could?????


http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/posters/pdf/minwagebwP.pdf
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
L-188
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:08 pm

Raising the minimum wage is only a feel good piece of legislation.

What ends up happening is that it forces employers to either A:Cut back on the number of their workers or B:Raise prices.

And when the latter happens it cancels out the effect that the minimum wage increase would have had.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
j_hallgren
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:20 pm

Rush L has a good approach to this topic...to paraphrase/shorten it, let's say we raise the mininum to $10...sound good? How bout $20? better yet? how bout $30? Now you're real happy? Or maybe even $50? You say that won't work? Well, then why should raising it all work? cause all it does is raise EVERYONE's level AND raise costs of goods and services so...you still haven't gained anything! That's what I recall from hearing it last time...


Here, they are paying $9-$10 for most all jobs...cause NO ONE will work for minimum! So it's doesn't matter what the min is...market conditions should dictate pay.
COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:56 pm

Yes, L-188, better to let workers have slave wages, so businsses can financially rape them, right?

One of the big fallacies is that raising the minimum wage a little will force businesses not to hire workers. If they're that on the edge, they won't be in business no matter what the minimum wage.

You're so Republican that it's pathetic.

Support the business, screw the worker. Ah, the GOP gotta love them.
 
N6376M
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:06 pm

Alpha1, it is an indisputable fact of economics that a change in the minimum wage creates inflation. Every economist regardless of political affiliation will tell you this.

Inflation is the biggest enemy of the poor because it most drastically affects their purchasing power. The "rich" and big business are largely indifferent to inflation because interest rates adjust upward to compensation holders of capital for the errosion to their purchasing power due to inflation.

Finally, if you think it's a fallacy that a rise in the minimum wage places downward pressure on highering, please explain your position in economic terms, using a supply and demand chart for example. If you increase the cost of any regular item (by regular, I mean one with a downward sloping demand curve), demand falls. That's not me saying this, this is economics 101.

While I'd love to debate the politics of an increase in the minimum wage, let's first debate the economics and the politics can come later. But to ignore the economics and just debate the politics is an attempt to ignore the real issue.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:45 pm

LOL....

Randy, you should count yourself lucky, your state is one of 9 that have a state minimum wage higher then the federal limit.
http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

Maybe some education and training would help? Just a thought. Or is it a handout your looking for?

Randy, when you work in a job that requires no skill, such as your call center, what do you expect to make? And Alpha? How much skill/training is involved at your ticket counter?



 
cfalk
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:52 pm

Raising the minimum wage does in fact damage the economyvia inflation and increase unemployment, but generally by a small factor. When an economy is growing strong, you can (as Clinton did) raise the minimum wage without the penalties being obvious, as the overall economic growth drowns out the damage done by the increase. Raising the minimum wage in a struggling economy, or when the economy is just starting to get better, is stupid. The time to raise the minimum wage in the U.S. is still at least 1 year away, IMHO.

Of course, this being an election year, economic common sense or logic has no place in the discussion, and Bush's opponents are bound to say that the lack of an increase is evidence of something more sinister. But if Gore or any other Democrat been in power these last few years, you can be sure that they would not have increased the minimum wage either - they may be a little muddled, but they are not entirely stupid  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:55 pm

And Alpha? How much skill/training is involved at your ticket counter?

JeffM, why is it your arrogance has you thumb your nose at people who work for airlines? Why is that? Are we below contempt to you or something? What is this snobbery? I'm interested.

And I've never made "minimum wage" at CO, JeffM. CO paid above mnimum when I started, almost exactly 17 years ago, and I make FAR above the mininmum wage now. I make a very decent living, own a very nice house in a great neighborhood, have 2 nice cars, am able to take vacations every now and then. You act as if airline employees are the dregs of the earth. Interesting for someone who frequents an aviation website, I must say.  Smile

As for N6376m, maybe what you say is true. You have a decent grasp of economics, seems to me, so I will not argue the point with you. But eventually, and with prices and costs of living going up, even during good economic times, the minimum wage simply cannot sit at the same rate for decades, since it won't be worth as much as it is today. Eventually, minimum wage would be considered poverty or below, so even though some people don't like it, it has to be adjusted from time to time, as far as I'm concerned.

As for what Rush was saying, what a lot of hot air that was. Sure, a few nuts want a minimum wage that is so far out of line that it's insane, so Rush is just blowing steam because he doesn't know better. You cannot raise the rate by a large amount at one time-that WOULD be crippling to certain businesses, no doubt. But 25 cents, perhaps, and revisit it in another 7 years or so? I don't think that's unreasonable.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:02 pm

Alpha1, it is an indisputable fact of economics that a change in the minimum wage creates inflation. Every economist regardless of political affiliation will tell you this.

Strange that the minimum wage is increased each year in France, and we still have a low inflation since 1981 (around 2 %).

Every economist ??
 
cfalk
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:14 pm

Strange that the minimum wage is increased each year in France, and we still have a low inflation since 1981 (around 2 %).

By how much is the minimum wage increased each year? In the U.S., they normally raise it substantially, like 10 or 15% each time, but only do it every few years. In the end it is the same as if you raise it 1 or 2% each year.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
N6376M
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:15 pm

Alpha1, I would submit that fundamentally, what needs to be looked at is the purchasing power of the minimum wage. Without a doubt, the purchasing power of the minimum wage is at an all time low.

However, increasing the minimum wage is a de facto tax on businesses (in that it is a compulsary levy). What I don't understand about proponents of minimum wage increases, is that they're usually the same ones complaining about unemployment.

If we accept the fact that an increase in the cost of something will result in a decrease in its demand, then how can we, in the course of the "worst economy in 20 years" advocate an increase in the minimum wage?

I would argue that the best way (best in terms of economically most "efficient" AND the way that would get the working poor the most amount of money into their pockets) would be to substantially restructure the payroll tax system in the US.

I'm referring to the 15.3% of taxes (7.65% each by the employer and the employee) that get paid in FICA, SS and Medicare on every dollar earned below about $81,000). Since most of this tax disappears above $81,000 (the rate drops to about 1.5%), it is the US's most regressive tax.

If we, instead made payroll taxes progressive, such that higher income individuals (those with the most ability to pay, bear the burden), then we could exempt lower income individuals AND the business employing them from a substantial burden.

Let me be specific about the proposal, let's exempt both employer and employees from payroll taxes on their first $20,000 of income. This would represent a savings of $1,530 per year on someone earning the minimum wage (which is almost 3x the $0.25/hour increase you're proposing). As a revenue offset, let's do away with the cap on FICA wages graduate the rates so that the first $20,000 of wage are exempt, then next $50,000 are taxed at 4%, the next $50,000 at 5% and wage income over $200,000 is taxed fully at a flat 6%. Thefore, when we read about the executives with their multimillion dollar payroll packages, we'd know that they're paying their "fair share". We could give companies incentives, by means of tax credits against payroll tax liability for increasing workers pay from $20,000 to something higher.

Instead of working against economic principles, the above system works with them to encourage companies to higher and pay workers fairly.

The argument that this would destroy the SS system is ridiculous because the SS trust fund has already been lent to the general treasury. Therefore repayment of SS obligations has to come from general revenues. If we spark the economy by encouraging businesses to hire more workers, giver workers more disposable income and allow them to spend the money, the short term decline in total revenues because of the $20,000 exemption will be more than made up by the tax revenues created by the increase in the overall economy.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:21 pm

Raising the minimum wage is like raising the price of gas....
...the cost goes up, but the product is the same. Except by raising the minimum wage, the Gov't gets more out of you in taxes... No wonder Clinton raised the minimum twice...

Oops... wasn't supposed to say the "T" word around all these Democrats... Kind of like catnip..

Alpha,
I was just using your trade as an example. And as always you dodge the question with another question, how predictable. The question I posed remains, though I imagine you won't elaborate for us.

Minimum wage is a starting point, not a final destination, it does no good for the skilled workers to over-inflate the base salary of non-skilled, or entry point jobs.
 
N6376M
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:24 pm

Sebolino has fallen into the post hoc ergo prompter hoc fallacy. This translates into the dictum "after the fact therefore because of the fact."

You are trying to establish a relationship between two variables, inflation and minimum wage in the vacum of all the other potentially influencing variables (interest rate, economic growth rate, unemployment, to name but a few). Yet you provide no support for the relationship other than casual observation. While I will agree that inflation in France is low (1.8% in 2002, according to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html#Econ), you fail to mention that unemployment is 9.1% per the same source.

Instead of demonstrating relationships, explain the relationship in economic terms.

You are correct, my statement was not fully clear. It should have read, "assuming the same level of employment, an increase in the minimum wage will lead to inflation.' You've demonstrated that an increase in the minimum wage can lead to increased unemployment INSTEAD of inflation.

I assumed that nobody wants higher unemployment. Remember the US is going through the "worst economy in 20 years" and our unemployment rate is in the very low 6% range. I can't image if we increased unemployment by 50% to France's levels.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:47 am

"Yes, L-188, better to let workers have slave wages, so businsses can financially rape them, right?

One of the big fallacies is that raising the minimum wage a little will force businesses not to hire workers. If they're that on the edge, they won't be in business no matter what the minimum wage.

You're so Republican that it's pathetic.

Support the business, screw the worker. Ah, the GOP gotta love them.
"

You have no grip on reality whatsoever.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N6376M
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:35 am

Maverick, prove your argument. You say it's a fallacy, show us. Sebolino's example of France with it's 9%+ unemployment seems to be illustrate exactly the opposite of what you're arguing.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:09 am

"Maverick, prove your argument. You say it's a fallacy, show us. Sebolino's example of France with it's 9%+ unemployment seems to be illustrate exactly the opposite of what you're arguing."

If the price of (insert item here) goes up, do people consume more or less of said item? Do you think it's different for jobs? This is so elementary. If the price goes up, demand goes down. End of story.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JAL777
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:20 am

I have still yet to find an employer that pays minimum wage in the NY metropolitan area. Wages are set by the market, nothing more, nothing less.
 
N6376M
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:23 am

Maverick, that's my argument as detailed in Reply #10
 
N6376M
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:26 am

JAL777, that's not quite true in all places. In certain parts of the country, Texas and California for example, the demand for work exceeds its supply (obviously, the effect of illegal immigration is a large contributor to this condition). Therefore, the market wage for certain jobs is below the minimum wage.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:38 am

"Maverick, that's my argument as detailed in Reply #10"

You asked me to prove it! I was merely pointing out Alpha1's lack of grip on reality. I guess he buys more of an item when the price goes up. There is a name for that type of good and it escapes me now. Anyone?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:57 am

Giffen Good was what I was thinking...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
L-188
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:24 am

There is a minimum laber force required to run any entity.

And judging from the amount of overtime buisnesses pay out, I suspect that most are running pretty close to that in real life.

That means that the only option to cover the costs of those minimum wage hikes is to raise prices.

And the last time they did that, some buisnesses had to do it pretty substantually, example being the Subway where my sister work.

I don't remember what the actual hike was but it was pretty substantial.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Federal Minimum Wage No Increase In....

Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:25 pm

E pur si muove -Galileo

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