B2707SST
Topic Author
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Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:03 am

Interesting news release from the Bureau of Labor Statistics today. It sounds like the impact of outsourcing on the US labor market has been exaggerated, although the report doesn't address how many jobs were not created in the first place in the US due to outsourcing, which is probably impossible to count.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/news.release/reloc.txt

Of the 239,361 private sector nonfarm workers who were separated from their jobs for at least 31 days in the first quarter of 2004, the separations of 4,633 workers were associated with the movement of work outside of the country, according to preliminary data. Domestic relocation of work--both within the company and to other companies--affected 9,985 workers. (See table A.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
Action | Layoff events | Separations [Job Losses]
| |
------------------------------------|---------------|-----------------
| |
Total, private nonfarm sector.......| 1,204 | 239,361
| |
Total, excluding seasonal and | |
vacation events 1/..............| 869 | 182,456
| |
Total with movement of work 2/..| 119 | 16,021
| |
Overseas relocations..........| 34 | 4,633
Within company..............| 21 | 2,976
Different company...........| 13 | 1,657
| |
Domestic relocations..........| 79 | 9,985
Within company..............| 65 | 8,191
Different company...........| 14 | 1,794
---------------------------------------------------------------------

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
jcs17
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:52 am

Of course, what the economic geniuses on the left and the media always fail to mention is that America does about 30% more INSOURCING than outsourcing.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:55 am

Tchah ! Those pesky Injuns...
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:00 am

I don't care about your numbers...Bush has lost 4 million jobs on his watch...or is it three million? The economy has added over 1.4 million since last Sept. you say? Hmmm...don't care he has still outsourced millions of jobs...

Signed,
The Ignorant

Oh...and all of these so called "jobs" only pay between 10-20 an hour and are for burger flippers and warehouse workers...rabble, rabble, rabble.

Signed,
The Stupid
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
L-188
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:27 am

Bush has lost 4 million jobs on his watch...or is it three million

Sounds like John Kerry is telling a fishing story. How much bigger is it going to get?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:31 am

I am sure Kerry couldn't catch a fish, and it would be Bush's fault...that or the f'ing Secret Service scared em all away.

Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Arrow
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:18 am

What's always absent in these mindless attacks on outsourcing is the fact that US prosperity is inextricably tied to its ability to export goods and services to other nations. When China and India are prosperous, and their citizens' standard of living is rising, they'll want more and more stuff -- because they can afford it. That is already happening.

If America tries to beggar that growth by throwing cold water on China and India (and everyone else) through protective tariffs, or restrictions on outsourcing, it will hasten its own economic decline.

Face reality. China with its billion plus people is the economic power of the future. India is close behind, and so are other Asian nations. No small nation of 300 million, like the US, is going to stop that. And there's no reason to stop it. Enjoy the global prosperity it will foster.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:50 am

>>>Face reality. China with its billion plus people is the economic power of the future. India is close behind, and so are other Asian nations. No small nation of 300 million, like the US, is going to stop that. And there's no reason to stop it. Enjoy the global prosperity it will foster.<<<

The US population has always been "small compared to India and China. No big news here. Global prosperity is an upsidedown pyramid with US consumption (read, middle class) supporting most of it. Case in point; trade deficits. We buy much more of the worlds good than they buy of ours. Of course to do this you need a strong middle class. By American corporate greed outsourcing American jobs to the lowest bidder and then to sell these goods back in the US is unhealthy for our economy. Don't giver me the bullshit about free trade. There is no free trade. We need a managed trade policy like the rest of the world and like we used to have.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:56 am

Who was the signer of NAFTA? Who as President when the recession from which we just emerged began? Was it Bush? Reagan? Somebody remind me....the dems seem to need a scapegoat for the problems they say our economy has. I really want to help them further identify problems and scapegoats....now when I want a solution I will contact somebody else, because I have yet to see a solution being offered by the dems for any of these problems that they say are being unattended.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
B2707SST
Topic Author
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:18 am

Just to put the numbers I posted into context, the BLS states that during 1Q 2004, there were 12.175 million job separations and 12.812 million hires.

Hires: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.t02.htm
Separations: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.t03.htm

Thus, the 4,633 job separations attributed to outsouring account for 0.05%, or one twenty-fifth of one percent, of all job separations during that period.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
cptkrell
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:40 am

Well, I hear there are about 4,633 job applications going unfilled in the Detroit area because nobody wants to 'degrade' to $16-22+/hr plus benies plus holidays plus a couple weeks of vacation plus a couple weeks of sick pay plus time off for seeing your kid being born plus time off for a flat tire plus getting a three-hour lunch and then being too lazy to call your boss plus the friggin' dog's got a toothache plus fishin's good and it's a nice day plus it's first day of deer season plus it's opening day for the Tigers plus we're in the playoffs plus my friggin' car is broke (ooops, I built that car on my last job).

I stopped by a saloon for a quickie on the way back from Home Depot today to hear the barmaid bitching she wasn't making any tips and couldn't afford gas. By my second beer she was putting a $5 in the damn jukebox to hear shit she could hear for free on the in-house stereo and was still pissing and moaning. And she ain't even a blonde!

Damn, I'm glad I'm retired. Regards..Jack
all best; jack
 
donder10
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:43 am

By American corporate greed outsourcing American jobs to the lowest bidder and then to sell these goods back in the US is unhealthy for our economy


In 2003,the US 'insourced $131bn worth of services and 'outsourced' $77bn.All for protection then,FDXmech?
 
Arrow
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:12 am

"Global prosperity is an upsidedown pyramid with US consumption (read, middle class) supporting most of it."

Yes -- and with US consumption per capita of every natural resource on the planet, from oil to zinc, leading the charge. That's what "supports" the American middle class.

The reason I have no use for all this whining about outsourcing is that the average standard of living in the US (and Canada, and other developed countries) so far outstrips the rest of the world that it should embarass the hell out of us. Yet we bitch because employees in India, prepared to work twice as hard for half the pay, are taking a relative handful of "American" jobs away. You want to throw up the tariff walls, load on the trade restrictions, and smite Asian prosperity? Go ahead -- that approach worked really well in the 1930s.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:33 am

>>>Yes -- and with US consumption per capita of every natural resource on the planet, from oil to zinc, leading the charge. That's what "supports" the American middle class.<<<

I don't get your point.

>>>The reason I have no use for all this whining about outsourcing is that the average standard of living in the US (and Canada, and other developed countries) so far outstrips the rest of the world that it should embarass the hell out of us.<<<

That's your problem. If you don't want to lead a decent life, then don't. If you want to live life like a third world citizen - go ahead.

>>>Yet we bitch because employees in India, prepared to work twice as hard for half the pay, are taking a relative handful of "American" jobs away.<<<

Then why don't you volunteer for a pay cut and work twice as hard? Maybe they'll outsource financial journlist jobs too.

>>>You want to throw up the tariff walls, load on the trade restrictions, and smite Asian prosperity? Go ahead -- that approach worked really well in the 1930s.<<<

Don't make me laugh with your tarrif & protectionest baloney. With our trade deficit compared to almost any other country - you've got some set.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:36 am

Arrow....do I detect the vaguest hint of a threat? Are you insinuating that we could have averted the second world war if we had only given the Japanese everything they wanted (which we pretty much did) and ignored their rape of CHina? Or is there another set of circumstences to which you are referring?

Globalization is happening and there is nothing that can or even should be done. All the posts I see about how the 1.4 million jobs created recently are "low paying McJobs" really reinforce this. Immigrants have always come to this country willing to do whatever it took to get ahead. As soon as they get ahead their children get picky and refuse to do the same work as being beneath them. Well, somebody has to do the work, and if people are willing to do the same work as others for less, more power to them. The extra profits generated will be spent on something here and create more opportunity. You just have to be willing to grab the opportunity.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Arrow
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:04 am

"Are you insinuating that we could have averted the second world war if we had only given the Japanese everything they wanted (which we pretty much did) and ignored their rape of CHina?"

Wow. No -- what I was referring to was the introduction of the infamous Smoot-Hawley Act, which imposed a wide range of sky-high tariffs on everything imported into the US. The theory was that it would spur domestic economic activity. In practice, it simply guaranteed the US recession would turn into a depression, and the rest of the world got sucked in for the ride. I hear some of the same arguments today -- watch Lou Dobbs for a while and it will make you cry. There is zero recognition that protectionist policies actually have the opposite effect to what was intended. If the US goes protectionist, the rest of the world will follow suit (led by France, I'm afraid). What's that old saying? Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Now, I guess you can argue that if they hadn't passed Smoot-Hawley, maybe events in Europe and Asia would have turned out differently. I don't think so. Japanese and German militarism and expansion plans were well under way when the depression took hold.

But ... there's no question that it was the war that yanked the US out of the depression. The reason that GATT, followed by the WTO, came into being was so that the 30s would never happen again. Unfortunately, few remember that.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:41 am

Sorry, dude, I am just not used to well thought out, reasoned responses to posts here. You are correct, Smoot-Hawley Act of 1930 was a terrible idea, and whether the other countries passed their versions in retaliation or for similar reasons (dems wanted the protectionism, reps wanted the isolationism and less competition) it deepened the depression.

And yes, war did yank us out of the depression.

Not enough people even know who Santayana was to avoid repeating history, dude, unless we have some leaders who won't be blinded.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
cptkrell
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:51 am

Another thing, DI021, you stated, in paraphrase, that the "..US gave the Japanese everything they pretty much wanted..."

I would suggest you read about the embargos that the US sanctioned against Japan prior to their Pearl Harbor adventure. I am not positioning for a debate here, but there were various circumstances leading up to Japan's decision to attack the U.S. (not that it was a good idea  Smile )

I agree with you 100% that people who really want to achieve do what is neccessary (alluded to in my facitious and admittedly sophomoric reply #10). I've been in several positions where I couldn't afford to take out Sweet Sue for a good dinner in a Mercedes, but I sure as hell did what I had to do to keep the lights and heat from being turned off. Most of the folks I know "been there, done that", too. Like you, I guess I don't see the problem.
Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:55 am

Jack.,..I hear you. Just for note, the US shipped the Japanese everything they wanted in terms of trade except for oil and war materiel, right up until the war. From the time of the Washington Naval Treaty where the Japanes were treated better than others, until the rape of Nanking we were trading with very few limits with them. Our scrap metal shipments to them made up for a lack of steel production capability they had and helped them boost war production in the years leading up to WW2.
When I say we gave them what they wanted I am referring to the lengths we went to in order to avoid war. I think that we have done Japan nothing but favors (outside of the war, that they started since they were not willing to leave China/Manchuria, and considered us a threat to their plans for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere that saw them taking over DUtch and BRitish territory in order to assure themselves of oil and trade routes) and we did the same for them afterwards as well. They have the strongest democracy in Asia as well as the strongest economy, due to the will and resourcefulness of her people, and the protection by and trade with the US.

Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
cptkrell
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:45 pm

Dl021; yes, we are agreed. My previous comment (not clearly stated: my bad) was in reference to oil/steel embargo.

The Japanese have well capitalised on the opportunities that the U.S and allies introduced them to; possibly others will eventually recognise a freer market and a freer society ain't that all of a bad thing. Kind regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:09 pm

Imagine what a nation today could do given those same opportunities? We, the United States, are the best friend any nation could have (face it, we are there for our Allies when they need us) and there are a couple right now making some very important decisions as entire nations about which direction they will go. We are going to eventually go along with their free will and leave them alone as long as they don't threaten us again, but imagine how much farther they will be along in economic terms if they are our democratic allies and friends rather than isolated and dictatorial. I know there are many on this forum and elsewhere that say we should not impose our brand of democracy on the world...but I sometimes feel that is like saying we should not issue smallpox vaccinations to countries that can't make them. Our form of democracy was usable two hundred years ago as well as today.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Arrow
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:03 am

"I know there are many on this forum and elsewhere that say we should not impose our brand of democracy on the world...but I sometimes feel that is like saying we should not issue smallpox vaccinations to countries that can't make them. Our form of democracy was usable two hundred years ago as well as today."

Yes -- but you need to recognize that yours isn't the only form of democracy on the planet -- and maybe it isn't even the best. The right to self-determination includes the right to decide what form of democratic government works best. It's fine to export the principle through moral persuasion, but don't impose a system that was designed for a completely different nation under completely different circumstances. Democratic principles will take root and grow much more quickly if they are germinated by the people in the country -- not transplanted from somewhere else.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2530
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:16 am

Wow!
50 jobs per day, the end of the world...NOT.

Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:35 am

I understand, and even agree to a point...but the problem is not will they have a parliamentary/federal or bicameral/multi-party form of democracy....many of these countries are in need of a real deomcracy where power changes hands peacefully every 4 or 8 years and the lawmakers are truly answerable to the people. Say what you want, but western deomcracies are there, where people will vote you out if you let them down or vote in someone else who has a more persuasive argument.

Most of the countries that I am referring to have nothing that approximates this. It's as if they are culturally and politically 500 years behind what we call the 1st world and new world. ANy ideas how to put a lid on the medieval urges that come over peoples who are possessed of 21st century weaponry? Any idea of how to educate entire populations in better ways of expressing dissatisfaction than by lashing out with extreme violence? Any way of putting an end to the apologists of this type of behavior? I'd like to hear some answers if forcefeeding freedom is not the answer, and it obviously is a really inefficient way of spreading the good news.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Arrow
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:10 am

D1021 --

All good questions, to which there aren't any good answers. But you can't forcefeed it by imposing democratic principles on people who are having trouble feeding and housing themselves. It's no accident that democracies flourish in nations with high standards of living, and repressive dictatorships flourish in places that don't. The US is trying impose secular democracy on Iraq when the water and power systems don't work, abject poverty is prevalent, and religious fundamentalism still dominates political discourse. Fix those problems first (well, fix the waterworks/power and the poverty -- the other one is a lot tougher). People can embrace democracy if they're not starving.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:52 am

Hey, good news there...the water and power are now more reliable than pre-invasion. If only we could get those idiots to quit blowing up their own systems. The terrorists will succeed if they can create enough fear and havoc that people will accept whatever the terrorists demand in return for a return to tyranny. Now is the time to support the new Iraqi government, regardless of one previous political views. This is a critical moment for their development.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Goose
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:09 am

It's no accident that democracies flourish in nations with high standards of living, and repressive dictatorships flourish in places that don't.

Just curious.... but what do you think is the world's largest democracy, in terms of citizenry which can participate? Is it a "first-world" nation, with lower poverty and an overall high standard of living as well?
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:55 am

Goose, I know that India is the worlds largest functioning democracy, but their democracy is perhaps not yet ready to be exported. The fact that they have maintained their democracy in the face of the different set of challenges they face is heartening to me. If their society, rich in tradition but steeped in the caste system as well as the maharajahs for thousands of years, not to mention the British for the last 300, can make democracy work consistently as they have since '48 then many more countries can do the same thing.

I do believe that the stable democracy that we have is due to our unanimous desire throughout the last 220 years to maintain our freedoms in the face of any threat, most of which have come from elsewhere. The countries we are discussing have no real history of any kind of democracy, or real hope of experiencing them. We have to figure out how to help create this hope.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Goose
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:23 am

The countries we are discussing have no real history of any kind of democracy, or real hope of experiencing them. We have to figure out how to help create this hope.

Considering that Germany and Japan didn't have much experience with democracy before the end of the Second World War - indeed, the Weimar Republic led to the election and ascendance of the Nazi Party - the Allies, and namely the United States, made a great success of both nations. To the outside observer, Japan's internal politics might seem a bit nuts, but that's indicative of a healthy democracy.....

And the question about the largest democracy was directed at Arrow, who made the generalization that democracies are mostly in the realm of nations with high standards of living and thriving economies, where the poor are in the minority. India has shown that's not the case - and, in the face of countries like Iraq, where poverty still reigns and is deep-rooted - so perhaps we could learn something from India's example.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Arrow
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:42 am

I won't dispute that India is a big democracy -- but I would argue its the exception that proves the rule. Most democracies flourish in prosperous places. Most dictators rule in third world places. Germany and Japan were ruled by military governors until some semblance of economic reconstruction took place. Douglas MacArthur was the emperor in Japan in all but name for a few years.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:47 am

GOose, I saw that you post was directed at Arrow, but it made me think hence the response. I was in no way denigrating India, and am wondering how their example can be included. I really think it gets down to what the people are willing to fight for. Indians are willing to fight for their freedoms and franchise. They seem not to be interested (for the most part) in an form of tyranny.

In Germany and Japan at the end of the war there was limited experience with elections. The Germans had the franchise prior to losing it when electing Hitler, and the Japanese were (and still are) a highly educated and disciplined people who were able to grasp and use the concept of secular democracy. Both nations were well developed industrially and had relatively capitalist economies to lend experience in coping with freedom. (Russia has faced greater problems with their freedoms over the last 12 years due to the wholesale changes made to their economy.)
Germany and Japan also were completely under our control for an extended period, due to their previous threat to the entire world, and there was no immediate call from our allies to leave these countries ASAP. We had a relatively free hand in what we did (we practically wrote the German constitution, and actually wrote the Japanese constitution. We also rebuilt these countries completely and were so generous in our occupation and restoration of their internal governments that we earned a lasting friendship with both countries. So, the differences between these two examples and the current countries we have liberated and are attempting to democratize
are vast. We must find the focus and fortitude to help them stay on track toward building on their new freedoms and democratic institutions.

My thoughts....yours?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Goose
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:58 pm

I won't dispute that India is a big democracy -- but I would argue its the exception that proves the rule.

India is the world's largest democracy in terms of citizenry.

And when nearly one-sixths of the world's population lives under India's democracy, I don't think it should be considered the exception to the rule. Just as many people are there in that single country, as are in the industrialized nations you said were where democracy only flourishes.

Industrialized democacies - Europe, the United States, Australia - make up around another sixth of the globe's population.

Chinese Communism makes up a sixth. Now, they call themselves a "People's Democracy," which differs from a true democracy much like a jacket differs from a straightjacket.  Big grin

So where's the other half of the world? -- in many of the Latin American, Africa, and Asian nations they have pretty vibrant democracies in their own right, or are just starting to tinker with them - Indonesia, Brazil, South Africa.... they make up a good portion of that half. In the balance you have left over, you have the tyrannies of the world, the Syrias and North Koreas and Burmas.... a group of nations which is getting smaller all the time.....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:02 am

In order to get back to this thread, here are a couple af articles many will find very interesting. THey come from european or acceptable to the left publications.
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/Business/2004/06/12/495913.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33998-2004Jun11.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/524652.html
Much seems to be made of the outsourcing that those evil republicans are entirely responsible for, but according to the Washington Post, the Int. Herald Tribune, and other sources it appears that a mountain is being made from a molehill. And the molehill is actually positive in terms of net effect on our economy. I saw a political cartoon the other day...it showed an American from 20 yrs ago waving a US flag and a sign that said my country right or wrong...and the same person now waving a blank banner and a sign that said 'My party, right or wrong." I believe this is a hotbutton issue that distracts from the real issues, and is being used to create distrust and rancor in order to gain votes this November. Every time one claim is disproved, the politicos pretend it never existed and make another equally flimsy claim on another issue hoping that enough people will ignore the eventual truth.


BTW, in case we are hijacking this thread,,maybe we start another? The reason we started this is that we are trying to figure out how different countries can coexist with free trade while avoiding claims of protectionism, or unfair trade practices. THis will require a more equal playing ground, or we will find that there will always be a cheaper labor source in another country, until that country has raised its economic strength and standard of living to the point that income expectations of the population and other cost pressures force them to export manufacturing and jobs in order to be competitive as well (see Japan as a primary example of success here, they are making cars in the US because it is less expensive)

SA Czech Airlines">OK, GOose, I appreciate you perspective. Help me with this..we do have these countries that are exercising or at least developing their democracies...and I think I left it as a given that India is a success in spite of ther challenges they have faced. Brasil and a good number of South American nations are going down the same path. The US encouraged many of those nations, in the aftermath of the cold war after keeping the communists out of most of them, to engage in democracy through a combination of incentive and coercion. El Salvador, Panama, Honduras, and other smaller nations are democratic as a direct result of US influence. Brasil, and other SA countries recieved some direct (both good and bad), and much indirect influence, as well as being protected from most unwanted outside interference (see MOnroe DOctrine, and Truman Corollary) in order to develop their own democracies. It has been a hard road, and still more hard miles to come in order to overcome various insurgency, instability and drug trafficking problems, but they are succeeding more than failing. Every once in a while a Venezuela happens, and people elect a popular figure who grows towards dictatorship, but these matters seem to be getting resolved internally. I do see a great homogenaeity in these countries with mostly common or similar languages and mostly a common religion. They are just figuring out how to run things. In India, as well as Iraq, Afghanistan, and other countries there are some similar, but many different problems. Many of which are religious and extremist in nature.

I would like to know why you think India has succeeded in the face of competing religions and factional violence (BTW are you Indian? or does you perspective come from being an outsider as does mine?). How can those lessons be applied to the countries that are currently on the hot seat?
Your thoughts, please.
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FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:11 am

>>>I saw a political cartoon the other day...it showed an American from 20 yrs ago waving a US flag and a sign that said my country right or wrong...and the same person now waving a blank banner and a sign that said 'My party, right or wrong." I believe this is a hotbutton issue that distracts from the real issues, and is being used to create distrust and rancor in order to gain votes this November. Every time one claim is disproved, the politicos pretend it never existed and make another equally flimsy claim on another issue hoping that enough people will ignore the eventual truth.<<<

I don't believe this is a political issue. Or more accurately, just because politicians try to make political hay of a grassroots issue, shouldn't turn this into a political issue.
Frankly, though I'm independant because I'm not a registered Repubican or Democrat, I fall more in line with the Republican philosophy. But this being in faover of overseas outsourcing has me baffled. It defies common sense to encourage at first the flight of your industrial base and now high tech and office jobs (such as accounting). This is not in line with traditional Republican precepts.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Goose
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:15 am

I would like to know why you think India has succeeded in the face of competing religions and factional violence....

Well, truth be told, I was always told when I was young that the nations which were most successful coming out of the colonial period, in Africa, the Carribbean and Asia, were only successful because they were once ruled and had their history influenced by the British, and benefitted from that.

But I submit, for your scutiny, the exact source of that bias; my family members (I come from a very small family, but we have a very proud military history) have served in the Crown's armies, and the Royal Navy, for nearly 400 years.....

But do I believe that? No. But, rather than dismiss it, I submit that it might be part of a larger reason.

I do believe my home country of Canada owes much of its stability and peacefulness to the fact that we are, by heritage, a "British" nation. Those institutions were almost entirely "transplanted" from the banks of the Thames River to the banks of the Ottawa. The buildings even look the same.

I think part of the reason why India has survived and, indeed, is thriving is due in large part to the sheer determination of the Indian people to make their country work. There is a fractured political spectrum, sure, and occasional violence.... but nothing prevents people from going to the ballot boxes. They refuse to lose to extremists who would further divide the country - as I think that India already suffers from a sort of national "post-partum" syndrome, as a result of the Partition in 1947. The Muslims and native Hindus got along fine until extremists invented the need to keep the two seperate.

But that's simply an opinion.


BTW are you Indian? or does you perspective come from being an outsider as does mine?

I'm not Indian, no. I'm Canadian by birth, British and (to a lesser extent) Norwegian by heritage.



How can those lessons be applied to the countries that are currently on the hot seat?


With difficulty?  Big grin

I think that what needs to be learned has been learned - that the matter of deciding how to govern themselves has to be decided amongst the people who will be governed by that system. That's essential. And that's being done.

As for the tolerance of religious and ethnic strife.... well, it's difficult in a part of the world where even minor altercations or differences are often thought to be solved with a gun. It's difficult on the streets of Los Angeles, as it is in Kabul or in Baghdad.

Maybe moreso in Baghdad and Kabul, as many of the intolerances stem from religious and not ethnic, cultural or economic differences. Those tend to be deeper-rooted and much more difficult to come to terms with.

But in all honesty, I don't know the answer.

But I know the best solution is on the track which the Coalition is persuing in Iraq and Afghanistan. We'll get there this way... even if it seems sometime not to be the easiest way to get there, we will certainly get there. It needs to be done, I don't think anyone will argue with that - it's not a matter of what we should do or shouldn't do now, but what we need to do.

But we won't get there by wanting to pull the soldiers out-of-country tomorrow; but when we know that we can extricate ourselves with the secure knowledge you'll never have to come back with them again.

But personnally? My belief is that Iraq is flawed by design. It's a creation of a map-maker after the fall of the Ottoman Empire..... meant to ease administration of the middle east and appease the British and French to having fair "pieces of the pie." The borders are out of date, and raise serious questions about the rights of self-determination of peoples who have never had a country of their own - the Kurds, namely.

Saddam's campaigns against the Kurds were so heinous that there may be irreconciliable differences, there.

Anyway, I could talk further... but work calls. DL021, you can feel free to email me about this if you want to discuss it more. Cheers.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:36 am

FDXmech I think the articles to which I posted links should show what I wanted to point out about the outsourcing issue being somewhat to highly overblown, and the reason that it has been overblown is that politicians find it easy to scare people by claiming the sky is falling down on them and their families. Whether it is about their jobs, prescription meds, or anything else, pols seem to take a page from life insurance salesmen, except that life insurance salesmen are always right...you WILL die sometime, and you want your loved ones protected (I'm not a life insurance salesman) and pols are usually wrong about their doom and gloom and whe ability of government to protect the people from said d+g. I am right with you, in that I would always rather keep jobs here at home rather than send them overseas, but I also understand the responsibility of corporate management to turn a profit, and if your competitors are doing something that gives them a significant cost advantage, then you must be ready to meet their challenge, either by superior service or products and finding customers who are willing to pay extra for it, or by reducing costs concurrently with them.

Goose...Thanks for your opinion. I agree with a good bit of what you said, especially about the path the Coalition is currently embarked upon in the two countries. Hopefully in a few years they will be meaningful trading partners as well. Also, about the countries of the Commonwealth, and how they are by and large more successful than other former colonial territories. This is true, but there are still are serious problems, mostly caused by premature de-colonisation, but that is a different story.
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Goose
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:40 am

This is true, but there are still are serious problems, mostly caused by premature de-colonisation, but that is a different story.

True, but that the British de-colonization of points in Africa and Asia was in part to pressure from the UN, and a continuing pressure from the US for "self-determination" for people across the globe.

I'm not saying that self-determination is a bad thing, but it could - and has - been done within the structure of the British Empire and Commonwealth. Well, at least it could have been.

One of the things that was nixed after the War was the proposal to create an Imperial Parliament; sort of a European Parliament model, except applying to the territories of the Commonwealth and Empire. It would have provided guidance for many of the territories which were moving towards independance from the Empire and didn't require the Mother Country to directly manage their affairs any longer. But, doubtless, such a Parliament would cause grumblings among the US and in the UN.....

Nevertheless, there are still some proponents of stronger ties among members of the Commonwealth; a joint defense pact, free trade - perhaps even as far as a common currency - and so on.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
dl021
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RE: Outsourcing Cost 4,633 US Jobs In 1Q 2004

Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:15 pm

I see an opportunity whose time has gone by....unless the members put aside their resentments and jealousies to create an unequalled economic opportunity for themselves. Such a global alliance would require serious development by all members, but it would challenge the US in economic strength and scope. The undoing of htis would be political, as always.
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