zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:38 pm



what do others think of above picture. i will post my opinion/analysis later but can generally say that its a perfect example of current problems.
10=2
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:45 pm

If anyone thinks that a repeat performance of that would improve the situation, then they should be rushed to a mental institution for immediate, and possible permanent, confinement as quickly as possible!

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Klaus
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:48 pm

The story quoted above appears to be a myth:

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/pershing.html
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very W

Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:51 pm

"If anyone thinks that a repeat performance of that would improve the situation, then they should be rushed to a mental institution for immediate, and possible permanent, confinement as quickly as possible!"

i agree.
i think what makes this picture sum up the current problems is the fact that this was supposed to happen on the phillipines. not once is the question raised why he was there and if in fact those "terrorist" were just people defeding their home turf against foreign invaders.
10=2
 
cfalk
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:36 pm

Politically correct abhorance at such a monstrous act put aside for a moment, the article does bring up an interesting question.

The only way you can stop terrorists (or any other crime) is to provide a realistic and credible threat to something they value. Most criminals value threir lives and/or their freedom, so you can threaten to take that away from them. But when the criminals are not only not afraid to die, but actually seek death and martyrdom with the promise of paradise, what can be done to disuade them?

The Pershing myth is one of finding a way of taking away the promise of martyrdom and paradise. As repugnant as the tactic may be to our western sensibilities, I am quite sure that if everyone who has to pick up the pieces after a terrorist bomb made it known that the body parts of the suicide bomber (which can usually be identified) would be buried along with a few strips of lard, you'd find that the number of volunteers for such suicide missions would drop significantly, saving many lives.

So which do you choose? Sacrifice lives, or bring out the bacon?

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
L-188
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:07 pm

Correct, Cfalk.

It may not be true, and may not be desirable to be repeated if it were, but you have got to like the train of though.

That is one of the reasons why the terrorists are making a big production of the Americans that they are beheading. They hope the video's of that discourages the forces of truth and justice from fighting their evil.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L.1011
Posts: 2163
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:46 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:45 pm

The Pershing "myth" is actually true. Additionally, the picture convinentiently leaves out the fact that Muslim terrorism ended in the Philippines for 50 years.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:50 pm

You really think that burrying suicide bombers with "a few pounds of lard" will change anything? Since they're already riding along on a hugely skewed interpretation of the Quoran, why do you think they'd not be able to dig up a few new misinterpretations that essentially say that being burried by infidels with parts of unclean animals is like being a martyr after being a martyr by blowing yourself up to kill other people?

Face it, people - it wouldn't only be absolutely unacceptable, but it also simply wouldn't work.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4792
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:20 pm

The Pershing "myth" is actually true.

How do you know?

Additionally, the picture convinentiently leaves out the fact that Muslim terrorism ended in the Philippines for 50 years.

Then maybe you need to read it again.
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2530
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very W

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:25 pm

I can recall some German tourists being kidnapped by Muslim extremists in the Philippines about two or three years ago.
That must have happened in the other Philippines...
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:27 pm

Yeah, but that was over 50 years from when Pershing allegedly did this, prior to world war 1.

I do however have to give some credit to the Japanese occupation though.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:27 pm

The only way you can stop terrorists (or any other crime) is to provide a realistic and credible threat to something they value.,

Thats all fine and dandy when you are talking about a bunch of unsophisticated jungle dwellers from 100 years ago. This story, true or not has no relevance in today's world.

What was the worst the "terrorists" could have done back then? Throw rocks? Even if they were to get their hands on a gun, it would be a minor threat at most.

Anyone who thinks this article is relevant is much more dangerous than any terrorist.
 
L.1011
Posts: 2163
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:46 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:42 pm

Whoops, you're right Scorpio. So you're helping me prove my point. Wow.
 
Scorpio
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Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:57 pm

So you're helping me prove my point. Wow.

How's that? I haven't seen your explanation as to how you know this to have actually happened.
 
VS340
Posts: 431
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:06 am

I might be wrong about this, but quite a while ago I seem to recall reading somwhere that in Israel they were hanging bags of pig entrails or bodies in buses to dissuade terrorist attacks on buses. Of course Jews are also not allowed to touch pork either so Im not sure if it is true or not.
 
L.1011
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:30 am

And you have proof it hasn't?
 
Nancy
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:45 am

"Comments: According to Dr. Frank E. Vandiver, professor of history at Texas A&M University and author of "Black Jack: The Life and Times of John J. Pershing," the above tale is apocryphal. "This story is hard to stop!" he wrote in answer to my email query. 'I never found any indication that it was true in extensive research on his Moro experiences. This kind of thing would have run completely against his character.' "
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm

Doesn't seem to be true, Urbanlegands is usually a pretty good source with a lot of citations and, in this case, expert opinions.

 
Scorpio
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:51 am

And you have proof it hasn't?

No. But I never claimed to know it didn't happen. In fact, I don't know whether it happened or not. Yet I have a problem when people 'claim' to KNOW things, but then fail to back up those claims. Klaus claimed it was a myth, and provided a source to back up that statement. You claimed it wasn't, yet failed to provide a source. So for the moment I'm swinging towards the 'it's a myth' thesis, for obvious reasons.

Edit: seems there's now a second source to back up the myth theory...

[Edited 2004-06-19 17:53:16]
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:04 am

The one thing is that the Americans had absolutely NO business to be in the Philippines at this time.
The Philippines used to be a Spanish colony ( 1521 - 1898, actualy the Spanish never managed to subdue the Muslims in the south).
Starting from the mid 19th century there was a rebellion developing in the Philippines against the Spanish colonialists (Rizal, Bonifacio, Aquinaldo, the Katipunan-movement, short KKK, etc., but there have been local rebellions going on in all region, the Roman-Catholic ones as well during the whole time of Spanish rule).
The poet and doctor Rizal, the intellectual leader of the rebelion was executed by the Spanish in 1896.
In April 1898 the American battleship Maine exploded in the Cuban port of Havanna (at this time a Spanish colony), leading to the Spanish American war. Spain lost the war and as a result lost it´s colonies in America and Asia.
Most Filipinos, based on the American history (indepence war) saw the Americans as a help against Spanish colonial rule, esp. after the Americans destroyed the Spanish fleet in Manila bay and hoped finaly to get national independence. General Aquinaldo declared the independence of the Philippines after helping the Americans in the war against the Spanish.
Most Filipinos were deeply disappointed, when instead of letting the Philippines become independent, the US declared the Philippines to be their colony after the treaty of Paris. The in meantime accepted constitution and the new President Aquinaldo were not recognised by the US government. After some Filipinos have been shot by the American Army, Aquinaldo´s revolutionary congress declared war against the US.
This lead to an armed rebellion (American -Filipino war) which lasted until 1911. It was the first Guerilla war in Asia, with 4200 American casualities, 16000 Filipino guerillas and 200000 Filipino civilians. BTW, this rebellion again included both Muslims and Christians.
Even though the Americans developed the country quite a bit, resentments kept going on.
Only FDR wanted to end the colonial rule in 1943 and started from the 1930s on to replace American colonial officers with local people.
Unfortunately the Japanese invaded in 1941 and Filipino guerillas found themselves suddenly fighting side by side with American troops against the Japanese, which eased the relations. In 1946 the Philippines became finaly independent after a referendum.
The US government still kept on interfering in this country, not the last due to pressure by big fruit companies (Dole, Del Monte), which own huge pineapple and sugar cane plantations, esp. in the Muslim south.
President Magsaysay, who started reforms, also against the local plantation owner´s aristocracy got killed under misterious circumstances in a plane crash.
The dictator Ferdinand Marcos could have never stayed in power for such a long time (20 years) without outside support.
Sorry about my rant, but due to family connections (my daughter is half-Filipinab)I´ve got a personal interest in the Philippines

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
airtran737
Posts: 3221
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:09 am

The Germans never had any business in France, England, Poland, Austria, or the rest of Europe.......but they went there and murdered millions of people. It took a lot more than pigs blood to put an end to them. If it takes bullet's covered in pigs blood to stop what's going on with terrorism, then I think that we can spare a few pigs.

[Edited 2004-06-20 00:10:21]
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
pelican
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Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:25 am

It took a lot more than pigs blood to put an end to them.
Therefore you should know such things don't work. Fight on terrorism will cost more than only some pigs.

pelican
 
airtran737
Posts: 3221
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:10 am

But if it stopped for fifty years, maybe its worth a second try. All I'm saying is that we need to re-evaluate the way we fight the war on terror.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:21 am

But if it stopped for fifty years, maybe its worth a second try.

Do you believe in any faked crap?

All I'm saying is that we need to re-evaluate the way we fight the war on terror.

Yes you should (and I don't mean the pacifistic way).

pelican
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:00 am

It wouldn't stop anything. The world is different now, and extremists can get their hands on nuclear weapons and they aren't afraid to use them.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:29 am

Yes, we did have business there. Had we abandoned the Phillippines after the war we would have done them a disservice. Yes, Marcos was a real problem, but we did not interfere with their internal politics without the request of the government (just like many people seem to want today) and when we finally did intervene militarily it was at the request of the Chamorros government who asked for air support against the Marcos supporters.

The Moro insurrections still continue to this day. DId we belong there? I'll say this, the Filipinos were much happier with the US than they were with the Spanish. We actually set a timetable to leave their country as we did not wish for an empire.

Terrorism will last as long as there are people who will parley and negotiate with terrorists as a way of avoiding further attacks. In other words, as long as terrorism gets terrorists what they want, they will continue to do it. The only way to stop it is to not give in.

Black Jack Pershing ,so nicknamed (as a backfired slight against him by racist superiors) for his teaching at negro schools [period term] and his long service with the 10th Cavalry, Buffalo Soldiers, including leading the charge up Kettle Hill alongside the 1st Volunteer Cavalry led by Teddy ROosevelt) was a man who would almost undoubtedly avoid making such a mistake. His biographies not only do not show such an event, but they clearly indicate that he would not have done this. He did defeat the Moro Sultan of Bacolod by attacking a series of outposts to weaken the Sultans forces, then striking the main Moro entrenchments.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Nancy
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 1:54 pm

RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:09 am

Gen. Pershing sounds like a pretty interesting person, I think I might put him on my biographies to read list.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: A Picture That Sums Up Current Problems Very Well

Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:43 am

The timetable was only set under FDR. Before it was more a matter of American sugar cane planters fearing competition from Asia.
And about the Filipinos being happier under the Americans than under the Spanish, I believe this, for the period after 1920. But I think they would have been happier to be under NOBODY. Additionaly Bacolod is sited on the Island of Negros, wich is in Visayas in the Catholic part of the Philippines.
Also, excuse me, but Marcos´s successor was Mrs. Aquino.
Don´t deny it, the Philippines were a part of imperialism, same as the annection of Hawaii.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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