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Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:25 am

God almighty, I still can't get over this one. According to Toronto news sources, a mentally ill man drove from the Maritimes to Toronto with a carload of guns and ammunition. The New Brunswick man surrendered to police yesterday afternoon in front of a supermarket in the Beaches area. Police found a loaded gun in his pocket, and his car was filled with over 6,000 rounds of ammunition!

He parked his car near a Beaches area park, and was preparing to begin his killing spree, when a dog approached the man. This Psycho, charmed by the dog, later told police he figured if the dog was so nice, the people in Toronto must be nice too, and so he drove around town, looking for the cops to surrender himself. He told a constable he was crazy (ya think?) and needed to go to a hospital.

Police found in his car:

* 12 gauge shotgun
* Bolt action rifle with a telescopic lens
* 9 mm semi-automatic
* A machete (!)
* Camouflage ski mask
* 6,296 rounds of ammunition

What the F**k??

Thank God nothing came of this. And a big thank you to that hero dog that, all jokes aside, literally saved God knows how many Torontonians from being killed and wounded.

What a world.
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:37 am

Wow, that is very scary, and thank goodness for that dog!

The story on the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/06/24/canada/toronto_arsenal040624
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North County
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:54 am

Do I smell a Michael Moore "movie" in the making?
 
vaporlock
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:59 am

I saw the report on the news..........I know Toronto has really changed over the past 10 years but this is too much!

Phyllis  Wink/being sarcastic
 
L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:03 am

I would like to know what idiot brings a Ruger #1 single shot rifle to a shooting spree?
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vaporlock
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:58 am

L-188, this guy was obviously a brick short of a load!!!! Wow, there are some real sick puppies running around in todays society!!!!!!!!!!!!

Phyllis  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
yhmfan
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:26 am

there are some real sick puppies running around in todays society

And that God, apparently some really cute ones too!!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


See article extract below:


On arriving in east-end Toronto, the man reportedly went into a nearby park to load his weapons.
There, he told police, a playful dog approached him. That encounter apparently changed his mind
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:52 am

Bet it was a yellow Lab.
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Qb001
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:42 am

Thanks, the guy was stopped before he committed the unthinkable.

On another aspect of this, can you imagine the political impact it might have had, if this guy had not been stopped just in time? That would have been a serious blow to all of those who oppose the gun control registry.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Goose
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:19 am

That would have been a serious blow to all of those who oppose the gun control registry.

Why's that? If he had gone through with it, it would've proved the ineffectiveness of the gun control registry to actually prevent gun crime. So it'd still just be a few billion dollars flushed down the toilet, better spent elsewhere....

... For example, that money could have been spent on police, who in this case didn't notice him driving for several thousand kilometeres across three provinces, with a car full of weapons...... nor did the local cops in his home town catch onto him or his plans before he left. Obviously the guy's nuts.... I've read that his neighbours have had problems with him before. So why was he permitted to own guns? Who signed off on his Firearm's Certificate that he was mentally stable enough to own firearms?

"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Qb001
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:48 am

Why's that? If he had gone through with it, it would've proved the ineffectiveness of the gun control registry to actually prevent gun crime.

As far as I know, the gun registry is not fully in effect. Therefore it might have been argued, by those who support it, that the gun registry cannot be abandoned now, as it might have helped to avoid this tragedy and it is more needed now than ever before.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
airplay
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:58 am

The gun registry was never intended to be the end all to fighting gun crime. It is fundamentally a good idea. Unfortunately the average Canadian gun nut is too stupid to understand why...

If this guy was successful in his bid to wipe out part of Toronto, a well administrated gun registry might have helped law enforcement officials to figure out how this mentally unstable man was able to build his arsenal and avoid it from happening again.

We are all smart enough to understand that for at least several years, any gun registry is going to lack a great deal of guns that are hidden by those who are opposed to the government knowing how many weapons they have.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:04 pm

It is fundamentally a good idea.

I agree. I still support it in principle. It was just too bureaucratic and administered wrong.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
freshlove1
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:10 pm

Was probably a pit-bull that rolled up on him and made him change his mind
 
L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:36 pm

Your gun control registry has wasted 1 billion of your tax dollars.

Besides, with or without the registry, I would point out that both of those pistols are illegal in your country.


But there is another point here, Criminals will use whatever firearm they can get their hands on, in the US and in Canada, you see that this nutjob got his hands on manual or semi-auto weapons. In all, pretty low risk and harmless weapons

In Europe, most likely he would have bought a full-auto Ak from some black marketer that smuggled it in from the east. A lot of military weapons are making it in to western europe from the more unstable parts of the east.

Arguable if this guy had successfully pulled this off, he would have done a lot more damage with the weapon in Europe then he would have with he collection in Canada.
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Goose
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:38 pm

Therefore it might have been argued, by those who support it, that the gun registry cannot be abandoned now, as it might have helped to avoid this tragedy and it is more needed now than ever before.

How many more billions of dollars will it cost to make the registry effective? It's over a billion dollars now, and some folks are whispering that it's coming up on two billion..... is it worth it to register firearms on the scale they're proposing, especially when inner-city crime committed with guns, are often committed by stolen or smuggled weapons?

I understand that you should register the most lethal mechanical devices in the land - and, judging by the deaths and injuries they cause each year, that distinction would be held by the automobile. But, the provinces do that. The Provinces have jurisdiction over most other forms of property as well, right? So, why are firearm registries covered under the Federal Criminal Code? A lot of gun owners simply don't like feeling like a criminal or as a sub-class of citizen because they own firearms.


The gun registry was never intended to be the end all to fighting gun crime. It is fundamentally a good idea. Unfortunately the average Canadian gun nut is too stupid to understand why...

Well, whether or not I'm a "stupid gun-nut," I personnally did not say that the registry was supposed to be the end all to fighting gun crime. But it has not met its mandate.... it's failed in its supposed purpose - I mean, it was supposed to be fully implimented years ago, for cryin' out loud -- And we're still not there yet.

Pure and simple, the billions spent on the registry could have been better spent on more police on the streets and the borders, cutting off the smuggling and distribution of illegal guns from our southern neighbour. The registry's by-product of irritating legitimate and law-abiding citizens who own firearms, doesn't help either.

But I'm curious to know, fundamentally, it's a good idea to register all firearms... when most gun crime - such as gang drive-bys, home invasions, and so on - are not committed with legally-owned firearms to begin with? They're usually committed with firearms smuggled in from the US; and a good many of the ones popping up on the streets are of the type which could never be "legally" owned anyway, save for those people with the 'Grandfather Clause.' Those include: Full-autos, "Saturday Night Specials (.25 and .32 calibre handguns)" and sawed-off firearms.


We are all smart enough to understand that for at least several years, any gun registry is going to lack a great deal of guns that are hidden by those who are opposed to the government knowing how many weapons they have.

Ah, yes, I've heard of those folks with their hidden guns before. I'd hazard a guess in saying that they're not in the majority. Many folks simply pay their fee and go about their business. But then, this is Alberta.... even if you do have an expired licence or registration, the police wouldn't enforce it.


Besides, with or without the registry, I would point out that both of those pistols are illegal in your country.

Well, it's illegal for him to have them outside his home, or his gun range (or in a point of transit between the two). But then, that law in particular has been around since the 1970s.

But, which pistols were those that you're referring to? The revolver in the picture doesn't look to be illegal in terms of frame size, but of course I can't tell which calibre it is. Unless it's .25, .32 or .50, and the barrel is more than a certain length, it's fair game.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:03 pm

I was under the understanding that pistol ownership in Canada was verboten period.
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Goose
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:12 pm

I was under the understanding that pistol ownership in Canada was verboten period.

Nope. You can keep a pistol as a private citizen, given that you're either a) a security guard who requires one as part of his job, b) are a member of a shooting club & range, and provide that information to the police (you must also have proof of where you're going, if you're transporting a handgun in your vehicle for example - and said handgun must be stored properly) or c) require a handgun for your personal self-defense.

This last one is about the rarest; only a few people in Canada are allowed to carry a handgun on their person. You need to prove that your life is in legitimate danger to a Judge - I believe - in order to get a permit. It's sort of kept quiet as to how it's done, exactly, and many people in Canada who are not familiar with firearms laws - that would be, the large majority - simply don't know about that provision.

There is also another provision which allows for some people or groups to carry handguns on their person without any of the other aforementioned prerequisities. These are usually done on a case-per-case basis, and is reserved for hobby clubs and so on.

If you want to know a little more, L188, feel free to email me.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:26 pm

Well, as a yank, crossing over to Yukon we didn't even bother trying.

Although when the gun registry came out, Alaska was forced to change the state law that required a firearm to be carried as part of the survival kit of every private aircraft, so that people transiting over from Canada wouldn't be giged by it.

I am still bitter about that. A handgun is an excellent survival tool. It can be worn on the body, something that a long gun in a wing or nose locker, which might sink or burn up with a wrecked aircraft can't be done.

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airplay
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:44 am

is it worth it to register firearms on the scale they're proposing, especially when inner-city crime committed with guns, are often committed by stolen or smuggled weapons?


How can law enforcement determine this without a means like a gun registry?

it's failed in its supposed purpose - I mean, it was supposed to be fully implimented years ago, for cryin' out loud -- And we're still not there yet

Yes. Largely because of the refusal of many gun owners to participate. The govnerment has been forced to re-examine the admininstrative procedures many times in an effort to avoid a huge public backlash from gun owners.

Nobody wants to see the RCMP swooping down on a gun owner who barricades himself in his house refusing to comply but the sad truth is there are many gun owners (the more extreme gun-nuts) out there who have pledged to fight to the death.

Pure and simple, the billions spent on the registry could have been better spent on more police on the streets and the borders, cutting off the smuggling and distribution of illegal guns from our southern neighbour.

How can this be done effectively if the law enforcement agents don't have accurate data to determine how big of a problem this is?

But I'm curious to know, fundamentally, it's a good idea to register all firearms... when most gun crime - such as gang drive-bys, home invasions, and so on - are not committed with legally-owned firearms to begin with?

Wrong. The vast majority of gun related homocides are done by persons who own their own guns and know the victim personally. Not by drive-by shootings or random home invasions. You watch too many movies....

Ah, yes, I've heard of those folks with their hidden guns before. I'd hazard a guess in saying that they're not in the majority. Many folks simply pay their fee and go about their business. But then, this is Alberta.... even if you do have an expired licence or registration, the police wouldn't enforce it.

Well...this guy was in New Brunswick and he seems to have collected a fairly large arsenal. I wonder how many guns he left behind in his house?
 
Guest

RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:34 am

Good thing you all have gun control up there. Might have been able to defend yourselves or something.
 
airplay
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:08 pm

Good thing you all have gun control up there. Might have been able to defend yourselves or something

Just not alot of call for defending ourselves against gun wielding assailants. I've never even seen someone hold a gun in their hands in our city. That includes police. I guess we'll just have to suffer along in constant fear that we won't be able to shoot back...
 
yhmfan
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:33 pm

Good thing you all have gun control up there. Might have been able to defend yourselves or something

Is there a documented case of anyone ever defending themselves against a rampaging lunatic armed to the teeth?

If my choices are
(a) Worry about not being able to play Rambo against a gun toting nutbar or (b) Worry about every angry Joe Schmoe being able to arm himself with an Uzi and an RPG7 launcher (Strictly used for target practice of course  Big grin), I will go with option (a)

Regards
Totally vulnerable and helpless in Canada

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Guest

RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:46 pm

Option C:

Put a bullet in it.
 
L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:54 pm

Is there a documented case of anyone ever defending themselves against a rampaging lunatic armed to the teeth?

Check with the NRA, every issue of their magzine "National Rifleman" they have a section that lists self defense incidents where firearms prevented a crime from happening, or a worse one from.
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yhmfan
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:58 pm

Option C:

Put a bullet in it.


Darn... I don't have one!!! See? Problem solved!
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
captaingomes
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:52 pm

Check with the NRA, every issue of their magzine "National Rifleman" they have a section that lists self defense incidents where firearms prevented a crime from happening, or a worse one from.


Do they list all the incidents of accidental death or injury because of having loaded weapons readily accessible to anybody in the house? Do they also list the number of loaded guns stolen from homes or other places, that eventually end up being used for other crimes? And do they then compare the number of crime preventions to the number of crimes with stolen guns and also the accidental deaths with loaded weapons? Because only then can you really see if the net effect is positive by having guns or not. I would venture to guess that having the loaded guns in the home is a negative thing, and the proof is in the huge difference in the death rate due to guns in the USA when compared to other civilized nations.

It would be nice to live in a society where only a small number of people used guns for their rightful purposes, including sport, survival in the wilderness, and in the very rare cases of self-defense as a provision for those who really do need it.
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L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:57 pm

Most of the numbers for that you see quoted are from anti-civil rights groups that want to castrate the right to bear arms, so generally they are grossly inaccurate.

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captaingomes
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:04 pm

The same argument could be made for the numbers supplied by the NRA with respect to self defense incidents where firearms prevented a crime from happening. You could argue that both groups have an agenda, but I would still be very amazed if more crimes are PREVENTED because of having loaded guns in the house, or on one's self, when compared to the number of actual deaths as a result of this.

"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:07 pm

Those incidents are printed from police blotters in papers across the country, a majority of the time verbatim.

They don't attempt to falsify statistics something that gun grabbing groups do, but rather just mention instances where lives where saved by use of a firearm in self defense.
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:22 pm

I wonder how the 9 innocent people gunned down in Detroit last week are recovering? Bet they are traumatized for life.

There are no such traumatized people here in Canada.

Ban the gun. Live free. Like Canadians.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:23 pm

That is hardly free.

Sign, the land without VAT
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:32 pm

L-188, as a Cdn who has lived in both the US and in Canada, I can certainly vouch for being freer in Canada.

There are no "bad" neighbourhoods in Canada (we are safe EVERYWHERE), there is no gun/shooting epidemic in Canada, our rate of murder by guns is a whopping 94% lower than the US. When living in Memphis, I was warned over & over by my co-workers about the large swaths of no-go areas in Memphis for whites. This is not civilization -- this is aparthied! Right in America!

True freedom does exist in North America. It's called Canada. You should get out of your gated lilly white community once in a while.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L-188
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:45 pm

1. I don't live in a gated community
2. Hard to belive but I have lived in towns where I was a minority
3. And Canadian cities do have bad neighborhoods


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:49 pm

3. And Canadian cities do have bad neighborhoods

None that you would not be safe in. I would drop my grandmother in any of Toronto's worst hoods: she would be safe and fine.

50% of Memphis, meanwhile, is off-limits for white people. What a society.

I rest my case.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:09 pm

I wonder how the 9 innocent people gunned down in Detroit last week are recovering? Bet they are traumatized for life.


Two schools of thought here. (A) Had someone in the crowd been armed perhaps the shooter would have been stopped before being able to cause as much carnage as he did. (B) Chances are, had there been someone in the crowd who was armed, it would have been someone not properly trained in the use of a firearm in a crowded area and he or she would have irresponsibly discharged the firearm resulting in the potential of several more victims.

I commend Canada and their strict gun control laws. I can only hope that the U.S will wake up and realize it's time to change our way of thinking here. Yes, there is the rare occasion when an armed civilian, usually a home owner who surprises someone vandalizing their home, has fired on the suspect with a favorable outcome. However, more times than not, the citizen's gun is taken from him and used on him or, at the very least makes its way onto the streets where it's used to perpetrate another crime.

Of course this post will be responded to by all the NRA fanatics proclaiming their right under the Second Amendment to bear arms. So, have at it...
 
buckfifty
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:13 pm

I actually agree with Neil on this one. I can walk down Regent Park in the middle of the night (done it quite a few times), and not worried about getting stabbed or shot. The only problem is that the donut stores lock all their toilets so that the homeless don't go sleep in them. And that's about as worse as it can get in Canada. Can't say that about my time in Detroit or Niagara Falls NY, though

Is it all about guns? Perhaps not, as the social welfare and support structure is quite well established. There isn't much of a gun culture in Canada, or at least not one with a gung-ho image to it. In fact, not having accessible guns does make a difference, as your average high-school kid or dope dealer would be hard pressed to obtain one. Unlike popular belief, black market connections are not like convenience stores.

Sure guns do exist. And as long as they do, repeats of Columbines can happen anywhere in the world. But as I travel to many places around the world, often the places that feel the least secure are the ones where guns have proliferated. South Africa, for example, I can't walk out of the hotel by myself after dark even in the suburbs of Joburg. On the other hand, going to a place like Tokyo is an entirely different matter altogether.

.
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Toronto Killing Spree Narrowly Avoided

Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:45 am

I agree with Yyz717. I, too, have lived in both countries and for the reasons brought up, I felt more free in Canada. Freer from being shot at. Freer from being mugged downtown.
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