MaverickM11
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Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:18 am

I just heard an excerpt from NPR (yes, NPR) how the Kurdish North is building roads, banks, schools, etc in peace and major Kurdish leaders are in London trying to attract businesses to the area. They've created incentives of free land, no taxes, and speedy processing through the Iraqi bureaucracy. And when was the last time you heard about a major attack in Kurdistan these days? Wow what a concept! You can either choose to blow up construction, aid workers, contractors, or build something! Why is this concept completely lost in Baghdad and the south?

[Edited 2004-06-30 02:23:01]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JeffM
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:24 am

Lies, lies, and more lies...! Your too stupid to understand...


signed,
Mikey Moore
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:24 am

A little misleading, Maverick. With suicide attacks, and other attacks, on Iraqi civilians and U.S. forces every day; with civilians being kidnapped and beheaded, and with a shaky government, hand-picked by George Bush, they're not exaclty a bastion of stability.

They still have a long way to go. The only thing keeping them from Civil War is our troops. And what happens when they go? I hope to God they're strong enough by then, because ,honestly, I fear another Yugoslavia.
 
JeffM
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:46 am

Always the ray of hope and sunshine...

They may have a long way to go but they have come ten times farther.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:50 am

"A little misleading, Maverick. With suicide attacks, and other attacks, on Iraqi civilians and U.S. forces every day; with civilians being kidnapped and beheaded, and with a shaky government, hand-picked by George Bush"

Not misleading at all...none of that is occurring in the Kurdish North.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
WellHung
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'Kurdish North Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'

Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:59 am

Not misleading at all...none of that is occurring in the Kurdish North.

What's wrong with:

'Kurdish Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'
'Northern Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'
'Northern/Kurdish Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'
'Kurdish North Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You'
'Iraqi Kurds Doing Just Fine, Thank You'

all of which would have all fit into the subject line. Yet with the title you make it seem as if the whole country is fine when, in fact, it is not. Deny it all you like - it is misleading.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:00 am

True...but would you have read it then? I never said I didn't learn anything from Michael Moore.

[Edited 2004-06-30 03:06:32]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
WellHung
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:05 am

I thought topic names were supposed to reflect what's inside - not be falsified headlines intended to attract interest. Northern Iraq is certainly part of Iraq, but the question as related to you post should be - Is all of Iraq doing just fine?
 
scottysair
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:17 am

Can you anyone need to know when the war is over with Iraq?
 
airplay
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:45 am

Is it just me or does this whole power handoff seem a little "off"? Wasn't it the stated objective of the coalition forces to "force" democracy on Iraq? Then why couldn't they hand over power publically as planned?

If they are so afraid of terrorist threats then the job isn't done. If the new ruling head of state is flip-flopping on plunging the country into martial law, it doesn't exactly smack of stability.

The very first act in establishing a democracy shouldn't be shrouded in secrecy. Isn't that a fundamental requirement? And with the country teetering on the brink of civil war, the timing couldn't have been worse. Not to mention the idiotic move of disbanding Iraq's army.

This poor "democracy" won't last 30 days. In some ways it still doesn't exist...
 
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yyz717
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:55 am

Is it just me or does this whole power handoff seem a little "off"?

It's just you Airplay.

Wasn't it the stated objective of the coalition forces to "force" democracy on Iraq?

Nope. The objective was to remove Hussein and the Baath Party to enable the Iraqi's to self-govern.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:13 pm

Nope. The objective was to remove Hussein and the Baath Party to enable the Iraqi's to self-govern.

Then our troops should leave, and let them do so.
 
WellHung
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:23 pm

True...but would you have read it then? I never said I didn't learn anything from Michael Moore.

Interesting you change your post after I respond... Even more interesting that you claim to learn from people you consider pieces of crap. Certainly if you act in the same manner as you claim he does, you could be considered the same?  Big grin

Username: MaverickM11
From United States, joined Apr 2000, 1173 posts, RR: 3
Posted Wed Jun 23 2004 07:15:35 UTC+1 and read 272 times:

I'm not going to beat around the bush; I think Michael Moore is a piece of crap.


http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/583074
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:24 pm

"Wasn't it the stated objective of the coalition forces to "force" democracy on Iraq? "

"Forcing democracy" on someone is like forcing them to breathe.

"Then our troops should leave, and let them do so."

Oh yeah, they'll all get along fiiiiiiine and play nice without some sort of outside help.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:27 pm

"Interesting you change your post after I respond... Even more interesting that you claim to learn from people you consider pieces of crap. Certainly if you act in the same manner as you claim he does, you could be considered the same? "

Actually I changed it simultaneously as you were responding, and I learn from everything, even the people I consider most despicable. That makes me enlightened or something... Wink/being sarcastic
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
airplay
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:20 pm

"Wasn't it the stated objective of the coalition forces to "force" democracy on Iraq? "

Forcing democracy" on someone is like forcing them to breathe.

"Then our troops should leave, and let them do so."

Oh yeah, they'll all get along fiiiiiiine and play nice without some sort of outside help.



HAHAHAHAHA……this is a great example of contradiction. If democracy is as simple as breathing, and Iraq needs the US presence to maintain it, then Iraq is in an “iron lung” because it can’t “breathe” on its own.

Democracy, although a valiant goal isn’t always the answer no matter how you spin it. Maybe you can think of other biological functions to compare to the “democracy” they are enjoying in Iraq….
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:45 pm

"Then our troops should leave, and let them do so."

Oh yeah, they'll all get along fiiiiiiine and play nice without some sort of outside help.


Then are we there, Maverick, to permanently keep our troops there? If that's the case, Bush should be thrown out of office. We're not there to control their destiny, and leaving our troops there, ad infinitum, is not an option.

Our troops have to leave, and they well, eventually. We can't control it if they hate each other, but we can blame who will be responsible for unleashing that hatred, because of his pre-emptive action, can't we?

We cannot force Iraq to be a "little America" when they've not had any sense of democracy and freedom. Hell, before our own independence, we had 500 years of democracy forming in the Britian, and, later, the American colonies. We had some training-they don't.

And if you feel that way, then there's no doubt that when our troops do leave, "democracy" will die there, and they will end up like Yugoslavia.
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:24 pm


We will be in Iraq till at least 2005, or, Iraq want us to leave. After the Gulf war, we were in Saudi Arabia till 2002, we had been conducting patrols to enforce the no fly zones till 2002, so what is a couple of years to stabilize the country of Iraq. We are not forcing Iraq to be a "little America, & the government of Iraq was not handpicked by the United States.

If we were to leave Iraq now, it would turn into one hell of a firefight.

Now, I do agree with you that there has to be an unoffical time limit, but somehow we always get sucked into things, troops in Africa, troops in Eastern Europe, hell, we are still involved in Haiti, a base in Cuba, troops in Korean protecting the DMZ side of South Korea, troops in Germany, you get the drift.

NO URLS in signature
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:37 am

Oh well that's all right then - I wonder if the Club Med in Basra is open yet.

What is reported here is nothing new - the Kurdish area of Northern Iraq has always been more stable, and is practically self-governing and has been since Gulf War 1. It is precisely for this reason that Iraq will not hold together - the Kurds will not give up their hard-won sovereignty and return to the fold of greater Iraq, which is and always was an artificial construct of British and French imperialism.

When the Kurds assert their independence (which I reckon they will, especially given the mess that the rest of Iraq is in), it will take all the combined will of the US, Europe and the UN to prevent Turkey from invading to prevent Kurdish independence - if that happens, the whole area is buggered. In fact, either way, its buggered - its a no win situation. If I were the US I'd be saying to the Interim Government "Here's the key to the official Merc, I'm off !" and get all your troops out of there ASAP. Let them sort themselves out, its going to turn into a Shiite theocracy in the south anyway, accept the inevitable and move on.

Re: the government of Iraq was not handpicked by the United States.

I'm pretty sure I don't remember an election - do you ? Of course the US hand-picked them. Not that it will help - democracy has never been a feature in Iraqi / Ottoman / Byzantine / Persian / Babylonian politics, you can't change the habits of 8 millennia. Pessimistic but true.

Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:44 am

We will be in Iraq till at least 2005, or, Iraq want us to leave. After the Gulf war, we were in Saudi Arabia till 2002..

One big difference, Mike: in '90, the Saudi's, fearing invasion, invited us to stage troops there, in part to protect, and in part to help drive Iraq out of Kuwait. This time, we were uninvited ,unwelcomed guests, after a pre-emptive attack. Big difference.

so what is a couple of years to stabilize the country of Iraq.

Sure, what's another 500 American lives, and few hundred billion dollars that would could use here at home?

We are not forcing Iraq to be a "little America, & the government of Iraq was not handpicked by the United States.

ROTFL. Sure they were. We made sure that they would bow to our wishes, at least until elections can be held, if they're ever held. If you seriously think this "soverign" Iraq is calling the shots, and not Washington, you're deluding yourself, my friend.

Now, I do agree with you that there has to be an unoffical time limit, but somehow we always get sucked into things, troops in Africa, troops in Eastern Europe, hell, we are still involved in Haiti, a base in Cuba, troops in Korean protecting the DMZ side of South Korea, troops in Germany, you get the drift.

Agreed, which is where this Administration failed. They didn't think for a minute past the invasion, and putting Bush on that carrier with "Mission Accomplished" behind him. They had not a freaking clue, in June of '03, what to do with a nation they thought we would be universally welcomed in, and who they thought would not resist our coming. They had no post-war plan, and a bunch of Americans and Iraqi's have paid the ultimate price for that malfesence of duty.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:09 am

>>>One big difference, Mike: in '90, the Saudi's, fearing invasion, invited us to stage troops there, in part to protect, and in part to help drive Iraq out of Kuwait. This time, we were uninvited ,unwelcomed guests, after a pre-emptive attack. Big difference.<<<

The basing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, regardless of invitation, regardless of welcome guest status was AQ's main reason for striking the US. We were able to pull out of Saudi Arabia with the Iraqi threat gone. Such is the way of strategic policy.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:11 am

You give this President, and his administration, way too much credit. If you believe that was a strategic part of this, you're nuts. What is the diff, if we have troops in one Arab country or another? It's like shifting chess pieces-it doesn't mean squat. We still have large numbers of Americans on Arab soil, and that's one thing AQ doesn't look too kindly on.

In short, if this is a strategic move, it makes no sense whatsoever, becuase, strategically, it did nothing.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:22 am

The Kurds in Iraq have been more or less independent since the first gulf war. Saddam and Al Qaeda never had much say in their region anyway.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
FDXmech
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:24 am

>>>You give this President, and his administration, way too much credit. If you believe that was a strategic part of this, you're nuts. What is the diff, if we have troops in one Arab country or another? It's like shifting chess pieces-it doesn't mean squat. We still have large numbers of Americans on Arab soil, and that's one thing AQ doesn't look too kindly on.

In short, if this is a strategic move, it makes no sense whatsoever, becuase, strategically, it did nothing.
<<<

The monarchy was under pressure from the populice against housing the infidel in Moslem holy land. On the other hand, the Kingdom felt it was under threat from Saddam. What to do? Eliminate the threat and move out thus quelling the threat. Strategically, sound.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2984547.stm

[Edited 2004-06-30 19:25:50]
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:26 am

"If democracy is as simple as breathing"

I never said democracy is as simple as breathing; I said forcing democracy on someone is like forcing someone to breath. If you asked a random group of people whether they want democracy or tyranny, I'm willing to bet they all choose democracy. The execution is a whole 'nuther ballgame, and that is where we run into problems.

"- the Kurds will not give up their hard-won sovereignty and return to the fold of greater Iraq"

Can you really blame them? With neighbours like they have, who needs enemies? It's a bit like Switzerland having to become part of a greater country with the Sudan. The greater question here is why are the Kurds capable of creating a nation, whereas just about everyone else (regardless of whether they're one group or many) can't?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:08 am

What to do? Eliminate the threat and move out thus quelling the threat. Strategically, sound.

Wrong. Al Qaeda won't care WHICH Islamic/Arab nation we have troops in, as long as they're there, they'll target the U.S. All we did is move the bulls-eye, nothing more, nothing less. Strategically, it didn't change the war on terror one bit. If anything, it's helped the terrorists, who have now infiltrated a much more archaic nation, in Iraq, who's stability is still very shaky.

In the long run, this wasn't strategic genius at all, just moving pieces somewhere else.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:49 am

Wrong. Our troops in Saudi Arabia was a growing point of contention for their government. An unpredictable Iraq was their proverbial rock and hard place. That's a fact.

Genius or not has nothing to do with it, it was done with pragmatism.

It isn't the long run yet. We will see.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
airplay
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:29 pm

I was watching the CBS news this morning during coverage of the Saddam trial. They showed a video clip whose audio was removed (censored) by the American "intelligence". As the viewers watched, we got to listen to the news commentators as they explained to us how evil and belligerent Saddam "looked".

They continued to play the clip for several minutes while they paraphrased what Saddam "may" have been saying. Including him denouncing the legitimacy of the court, and delcaring he is still the President of Iraq.

First of all, just how much of a democracy has the US bestowed on Iraq, when they continue to censor what should be a very public and transparent trial?

Second, doesn't Saddam have a point? His sovereign country was invaded and his government overturned in what was a questionable fashion. Must he recognize the new government or the legitimacy of the court? Should we be surprised by his reaction?

After all, the United States failed to recognize the authority of World Court when members of the administration were being charged and tried on charges of terrorism during the Iran-Contra fiasco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States

And they further vetoed a United Nations Security Council Resolution calling on all states to obey international law.

And quite recently, we have had US state sponsored killing, torture and illegal confinement all under the authority of the Bush administration. Why isn't anyone considering charges against Mr. Bush in international court?

By no means construe this post as support for Mr. Hussein. I am merely pointing out some obvious faults in the whole affair that could jeopardize the legitimacy of any rulings in the newly formed Iraqi courts which appear to be heavily (mis)guided by the US.

One last point…if Saddam is formally charged and suffers the fate of being "hung by the neck until dead" can you imagine the huge backlash from his supporters? Would it be a wise thing to do?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:09 am

"First of all, just how much of a democracy has the US bestowed on Iraq, when they continue to censor what should be a very public and transparent trial?"

Huh? How 'bout he's having a trial PERIOD.

"Second, doesn't Saddam have a point? His sovereign country was invaded and his government overturned in what was a questionable fashion. Must he recognize the new government or the legitimacy of the court? Should we be surprised by his reaction?
"

No one is surprised by his reaction.

"One last point…if Saddam is formally charged and suffers the fate of being "hung by the neck until dead" can you imagine the huge backlash from his supporters? "

His supporters are next in line to be strung up.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:11 am

His supporters are next in line to be strung up.

I didn't know Indianguy was in Baghdad these days.
 
scottysair
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:13 am

I don't know about anything with Iraq and can you please comfirmed with Iraq? When the war will be over with them?
 
KROC
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:28 am

And Alpha 1 loads up a massive roundhouse right and delievers it to an outclassed 'Roy'. Nighty-night.

 
airplay
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:07 pm

His supporters are next in line to be strung up.

Unfortunately, a great deal of his supporters are out and about in Iraq taking pot-shots at your boys. Don't you think hanging their main man might aggrevate their moods?

Maybe thats a good thing...but my guess: Not so much...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:03 pm

"Unfortunately, a great deal of his supporters are out and about in Iraq taking pot-shots at your boys. Don't you think hanging their main man might aggrevate their moods?
"

I really don't think it's his henchmen that are attacking us in Iraq. There are a few but the vast majority are Al Qaeda/ standard garden variety Muslim terrorists. If Saddam was killed I really don't think any Al Qaeda people would care.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
gigneil
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:28 am

We are not forcing Iraq to be a "little America, & the government of Iraq was not handpicked by the United States.

And where do you think they came from?

N
 
airlinelover
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RE: Iraq Doing Just Fine, Thank You

Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:53 am

Scotty, according to George Bush, the war is over. But there is still much to do..

But in reality, it still is a warlike area, and NO ONE knows when it will end..

Chris
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