USAirways737
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Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:50 am

First of all, I am not a Liberal, so don't disregard this as a bunch of treehugger BS. I am a moderate Republican who at the age of 18 has already been a delegate to one of our local GOP conventions.

I write this today because I have been thinking lately about our bigshot in the Oval office. Somethings have really begun to worry me about the way he has been doing his job in the White House. Here are just some things that worry me that GW has done.

-Taking us to war in Iraq based on obviously faulty intelligence. Where are the WMDs that nearly a 1000 of our own American troops and 1000s of innocent Iraqis have died for?

-The war in Afghanistan. Why did we wait so long to find OBL? This is a clearly justified war that I 100% support. But why so few troops committed and why did we wait months to do it? Obviously it takes time to plan a war, but we could have easily started some strategic air strikes.

-And why the hell would we give illegal aliens drivers licenses and work permits? I know it was just a proposal that wont see the light of day, but it ticks me off that he would even think of such an idea. Either kick them all out (which is not feaseable) or secure the borders and give amnesty to the ones that are already here (very feasable with funding). We'll spend $80bil+ on Iraq, but we won't spend the money necessary to secure our OWN borders? WTF!

-And most importantly, the complete destruction of the worlds opinion of AMerica after 9/11. We had the world's support after 9/11 and Bush managed to not only eliminate their support for us, but to also get them to HATE our gov't and even our people. We need a new leader to at least let half of our country calm down and let the world calm down too.

-And locally, not introducing or getting enough funds for law enforcement and fire/ems to protect us after 9/11. It would have been a cake walk to get money to help out our first responders if we could convince Congress to fund Iraq. Not only have many local governments had to freeze hiring of more first responders, but many have had to fire 100s of cops, fire fighters and ems. To me that is rediculous.

To those who will now criticize me, I will first say I know Bush does not have a button under his desk that magically makes these things happen, but with his influence and popularity with the people after 9/11, all he would have needed to do is make a few phone calls and garner up some support.

And another thing I have wanted to know, is if any other Repubs have had some of the same opinions? I will vote for Repub Govs and Congressman this election, but unfortunately Bush will not get an X next to his name. But just as unfortunate, Kerry will get one too. But who knows, maybe something tragic will happen to Kerry, and then Edwards (who I'd much rather have be president) will then be one.

Erik in MSP

Ps And no I dont plan on hurting Kerry so don't go callin' the secret service and FBI for making threats on him.
 
yanksn4
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:10 am


Where are the WMDs that nearly a 1000 of our own American troops and 1000s of innocent Iraqis have died for?

Easy answer, Syria. Look, before the war, Saddam had very close relations with the Syrians. Just before we striked the country, he transported all of the weapons to his buddies in Syria. Top Syrian officials have said that this is true and another factor is that before being captured, Saddam actually was hiding in Syria, but was forced out because of pressure from us.

Why did we wait so long to find OBL?

Look, it is going to take more than just a few years to find one single person who is hiding in Afghanistan or Pakistan. We have to remember that during the President's speech after the attacks, he said that this would take quite some time and wouldn't be over in a few years. We have to keep patience.

And why the hell would we give illegal aliens drivers licenses and work permits

I totally agree with you on this issue. I believe the president made a big mistake with this and I agree that every illegal alien should be sent packing. However, John Kerry is pretty much the same and there's no reason to think he is better on this issue.
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b757300
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:17 am

Nice regurgitation of the standard Democrat "seminar caller" talking points. Somehow I don't put a lot of credence in your first two paragraphs.

-Taking us to war in Iraq based on obviously faulty intelligence. Where are the WMDs that nearly a 1000 of our own American troops and 1000s of innocent Iraqis have died for?

644 troops have died in actual combat. More than twice that many died during a training exercise in preparation for D-Day. The media includes every who dies in Iraq just to pad the numbers. People who die in a car wreck, have a heart attack or heat stroke, suicide, or any other kind of accident don't count as combat casualties but the media likes to include them in the total. As for the intelligence, President Bush made the decision based on the information available at the time. If the CIA was providing bad data, the fault lies with them. It is the President's job to act in what he believes is the best interest of the U.S. even if later the information is found to have problems. (BTW, plenty of WMD's and WMD programs have been found in Iraq but the media spikes the stories.)

-The war in Afghanistan. Why did we wait so long to find OBL? This is a clearly justified war that I 100% support. But why so few troops committed and why did we wait months to do it? Obviously it takes time to plan a war, but we could have easily started some strategic air strikes.

Uh, we started strikes just over a month after September 11th. Unless you wanted to lob some Peacekeepers over to Afghanistan, it takes time to move forces into position. That is one of the reasons we didn't send tens of thousands of troops in at once. Seeing how Afghanistan isn't on the coast nor is it easily accessible via land routes.

-And why the hell would we give illegal aliens drivers licenses and work permits? I know it was just a proposal that wont see the light of day, but it ticks me off that he would even think of such an idea. Either kick them all out (which is not feasible) or secure the borders and give amnesty to the ones that are already here (very feasible with funding). We'll spend $80bil+ on Iraq, but we won't spend the money necessary to secure our OWN borders? WTF!

Uh, when did Bush propose giving drivers licenses to illegals? Last time I checked it is a 1/2 dozen states doing it, not the federal government.

-And most importantly, the complete destruction of the worlds opinion of America after 9/11. We had the world's support after 9/11 and Bush managed to not only eliminate their support for us, but to also get them to HATE our gov't and even our people. We need a new leader to at least let half of our country calm down and let the world calm down too.

Oh please. Why should Bush care what France and Germany think. The President's job is to do what is in the best interest of the United States, not what makes some Eurowhiners happy.

-And locally, not introducing or getting enough funds for law enforcement and fire/ems to protect us after 9/11. It would have been a cake walk to get money to help out our first responders if we could convince Congress to fund Iraq. Not only have many local governments had to freeze hiring of more first responders, but many have had to fire 100s of cops, fire fighters and ems. To me that is rediculous.

Do you have any idea how much money the government is spending on trying to equip and train so called "first responders"? Where I work has received hundreds of millions to do just that and we're just one state agency in Texas. Besides, obviously you don't know how government works. President Bush doesn't just spend money at will. Congress has to approve any such funding so if you want to whine about that, write your CongressCritters.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
RaginMav
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:18 am

I am sick and tired of people such as N6376m who arrogantly label themselves as "executive" and then take shots at someone else's job.


agreed

USAirways737, while I don't exactly agree with everything you had to say, I value your opinion just as any executive in the forum.

[Edited 2004-07-07 18:21:56]
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:18 am

"Easy answer, Syria."

If the whole reason we went after Saddam and Iraq is because of them posessing WMDs, then why not the same for Syria. We cannot pick and choose which threats to deal with and which ones to not deal with without looking a little biased.

Erik in MSP

ps. be easy on N6376m, I'm sure he's just having a hard day at work surfing A.net and all.
 
777236ER
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:21 am

Typical insightful comments from someone who's occupation is "making sandwiches at Subway."

The really funny thing is, his vote counts just as much as your vote.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:24 am

I think americans should be a little more fair to GWB and his cronies. I think they should give him another chance.

I personally want Bush to come back. That dodos continued presence as America's head honcho is beneficial of other countries like India and China.

-Roy
 
mdsh00
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:25 am

We'll spend $80bil+ on Iraq, but we won't spend the money necessary to secure our OWN borders? WTF!

You bring up a great point there. Don't listen to the hardcore Bush people on here. They hold the administration in such high regard that nothing can be wrong with it, and attack anyone who thinks otherwise (be it personally or politically).

Nice regurgitation of the standard Democrat "seminar caller" talking points.

And all your posts reek of GOP sheep, B757300. I don't see your point.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:27 am

"Besides, obviously you don't know how government works. President Bush doesn't just spend money at will. Congress has to approve any such funding so if you want to whine about that, write your CongressCritters."


I am quite familar with how government works thankyou. The president, while he does not vote alongside Congress, has huge influence over much of what goes on. Having (or not having) the presidents support before a bill is introduced on the floor, plays a big role in whether a congressman actually wastes his/her time with introducing a bill. Also, the president creates policy. It is up to him to get lawmakers on his side to introduce legislation.

Also, much of that federal money is only for equipment and infrastructure, not necessarily for more police officers. So while local PDs are receiving new bomb and chemical weapons equipment, they are laying of more officers.

Erik in MSP
 
nasmal
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:32 am

Looks like N6376m wasn't bright enough to see that USairways737 is also and student who is working on the side to make extra money. Sorry must students cannot work as executives while being a student.
 
KYIPpilot
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:37 am

644 troops have died in actual combat. More than twice that many died during a training exercise in preparation for D-Day.

WTF does that have to do with anything??? WWII was completely different from today's situation.
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
 
tristarenvy
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:41 am

USAirways, you make some pretty good comments, and as a moderate Republican, myself, I can see what you are saying in your dissatisfaction with Dubya.

As I watch the news, read the papers, or look at media websites, I often ask myself, "How could this go so wrong?" And yes, I know the media slants "left". But one has to wonder how so many things in this administration have seemed to go off the desired direction, as was pointed out in some of USAirways comments.

As there is no (in my opinion) viable alternative in November, I'll vote the way I voted, in 2000.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:42 am

"644 troops have died in actual combat. More than twice that many died during a training exercise in preparation for D-Day"

I meant to correct myself earlier, but I stand corrected at the new number. For some reason I thought it was higher. That does not mean that that number is any less significant. I'm sure if they died in Afghanistan actually fighting terrorists or looking for OBL, they would have been more than willing to die. But for getting WMDs that didn't exist out of Saddam Husseins hands, I don't think they were as willing to give up their lives for. A motto I have for the war is:

Support the troops in Iraq, but not the war in Iraq.

Erik in MSP
 
SESGDL
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:45 am

"People who die in a car wreck, have a heart attack or heat stroke, suicide, or any other kind of accident don't count as combat casualties but the media likes to include them in the total."

Give me a break! Do you honestly think that more than maybe 2 people have died of those things you've listed above? Maybe none at all. Most of these people are young and most young people don't die of heart attack or heat stroke. And for your information, they DO list when someone dies of car crashes, etc. Haven't heard of any suicides though.

"Where are the WMDs that nearly a 1000 of our own American troops and 1000s of innocent Iraqis have died for?

Easy answer, Syria. Look, before the war, Saddam had very close relations with the Syrians. Just before we striked the country, he transported all of the weapons to his buddies in Syria. Top Syrian officials have said that this is true and another factor is that before being captured, Saddam actually was hiding in Syria, but was forced out because of pressure from us."

Geez! Then you need to walk over to CIA headquarters and tell them that you know where the WMDs are because they certainly don't. Yeah sure

Some of you all's posts are hilarious!

Jeremy
 
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:48 am

76m was attempting to point out that USAirways737's post was fairly simplistic in nature, rehashing the major points that most Democratic party operatives serve up when criticizing the Bush Administration.

And sorry, but most 16-20 year old student/Sandwich Artists tend to be somewhat naive when it comes to political matters.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:51 am

"And sorry, but most 16-20 year old student/Sandwich Artists tend to be somewhat naive when it comes to political matters."

Yet, like it was pointed out earlier, my vote means exactly the same as yours. And I would say I am just a tad above average on my knowledge of political affairs as my prior political involvement shows.

Erik in MSP

[Edited 2004-07-07 18:52:27]
 
flyboy36y
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:52 am

Well, if Roy wants me to vote for Bush...  Yeah sure
 
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:59 am

Yet, like it was pointed out earlier, my vote means exactly the same as yours.

I never said it didn't. I'm just pointing out that while both count exactly the same, an informed vote is always preferable to an uninformed one.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:01 am

"I never said it didn't. I'm just pointing out that while both count exactly the same, an informed vote is always preferable to an uninformed one."

And I was simply pointing out that I am not as uninformed as you people that disagree with me would like to think.

Erik in MSP
 
mdsh00
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:21 am

76m was attempting to point out that USAirways737's post was fairly simplistic in nature, rehashing the major points that most Democratic party operatives serve up when criticizing the Bush Administration.

And many of the Republicans on this board have the same simplistic arguements that are simple reiterations of the GOP party line. Either way, I think he had some well thought out points.

I'm just pointing out that while both count exactly the same, an informed vote is always preferable to an uninformed one.

EA CO AS, who are you to judge whether or not he is informed? Because of his current profession? When I was 16-20, I was more informed than many others my age, but because I didn't have a job or was young, would that have made me naieve? Give him the benefit of the doubt. Just because he said something that you (and a few others on this board) didn't like, doesn't make him uninformed.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
AIR757200
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:26 am


Typical insightful comments from someone who's occupation is "making sandwiches at Subway."

How does an occupation have any effect on one's personal political views?
If he is a voter, then he obviously has a voice- and that's all the matters.
 
N6376M
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:26 am

Listen, I don't need to be lectured on work ethics by anyone. I now run a $100M company that I started working at when I was in school myself. The first job I did was to take out the garbage and now I'm it's president.

USA737's analysis is sophmoric at best. To discuss issues of why we haven't caught OBL alone would require such a resertation of basic facts that it simply isn't worth my time.

There's a reason why the cliche exists that says if you're not a liberal when you're 20 you have no heart and if you're not a conservative by the time your 40 you haven't matured.

While there are exceptions to every rule, my experience with "sandwich artist" doesn't lead me to the conclusion that many of them have profound geopolitical insights nor do I believe that USA737's talking points help his cause.

By the way, during the summer that I turned 18 I interned in Congress for a democrat. However, by the time I became solely responsible for putting food on my table, a roof over my head and clothes on my back I realized that the liberal mantra of big government taking care of me meant that big government would take what it wanted and give it to whom it wanted. Thank you very much but leave my money in my wallet.
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:34 am

"USA737's analysis is sophmoric at best. To discuss issues of why we haven't caught OBL alone would require such a resertation of basic facts that it simply isn't worth my time."

I don't remember complaining at all about not finding OBL yet. I simply said why did we wait longer than we should've and with so few troops, before going into Afghanistan to find OBL.

"my experience with "sandwich artist" doesn't lead me to the conclusion that many of them have profound geopolitical insights"

If you've been to any fast food restaurant, there will undoubtedly be more than enough bad apples. Thats why I was not holding you by the balls because of what you said. I only thought that you were quick to personally attack me, not my comments.

Erik in MSP

[Edited 2004-07-07 19:35:12]
 
Scorpio
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:45 am

Listen, I don't need to be lectured on work ethics by anyone.

Clearly you do, judging by your first response here.

I now run a $100M company that I started working at when I was in school myself. The first job I did was to take out the garbage and now I'm it's president.

You know what that whole little rant reminds me of? A few examples:
"My dad can beat the crap out of your dad."
"Look at me, I fly first class all the time. Did you hear me? I said I FLY FIRST CLASS ALL THE TIME!!!"
"My penis is bigger than yours."

etc. Hope you get the point. If you don't, let me clarify it for you: nobody gives a crap how big your company is, and how you think you're so much better than Usairways737.

USA737's analysis is sophmoric at best. To discuss issues of why we haven't caught OBL alone would require such a resertation of basic facts that it simply isn't worth my time.

And yet you DO seem to have the time to come here and dish out a few condescending remarks towards a user you don't agree with?

BTW, if you're going to be pretending to be better than others, you might want to start by minding your own spelling. It sucks.

I'm completely and 100% with Diamond on this one.
 
N6376M
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:48 am

From your original post

"-The war in Afghanistan. Why did we wait so long to find OBL? This is a clearly justified war that I 100% support. But why so few troops committed and why did we wait months to do it? Obviously it takes time to plan a war, but we could have easily started some strategic air strikes."

What would we do if we found OBL? Kill him - thereby making him a martyr? Take him into custody and invite every nut to stage their own terrorist attack/kidnapping until we released him? Come on man, capturing OBL isn't the key, putting him on the defensive is. Clearly that objective has been obtained.

As for attacking you, I just pointed out what you had said about yourself. If you feel that this is an embarrassment, that's your thing not mine. I just wanted to point out the source of the statement. While we can all go around thinking that everyone's opinion is equal and that everyone should be respected, the harsh reality is that certain opinions matter more than others. As you point out, there are plenty of "bad apples" in the sandwich artist ranks.

Look, you're young, idealistic and immature (that last comment isn't meant to be an insult, it's a fact of life that all of us were immature at 18, that's why we mature over time). The world isn't black and white. In fact I can only think of a handful of things that are always one way or the other. Over time, you'll realize the same.

(Finally, you need to realize that you don't need to swing at every pitch thrown. I made the original statement just to piss off some of the knee jerk reactionaries on a.net - borrowing a phrase from GWB [maybe one he wished he never made] MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!)

-76M
 
aloges
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:53 am

"The world isn't black and white. In fact I can only think of a handful of things that are always one way or the other. Over time, you'll realize the same."

and yet you write

"Look, you're young, idealistic and immature (that last comment isn't meant to be an insult, it's a fact of life that all of us were immature at 18, that's why we mature over time)."

People aren't immature at 18 by default, and they're not mature at 40 by default. In fact, I (and probably everyone else) know people aged 40 and more who act like teenagers, and I know teenagers who are mature. I am still a teenager myself, and although I take no offence in your words, I think you should be more careful when you generalise us teens.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
N6376M
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:56 am

Look, at 18 I thought I was very mature - everyone does.

Just wait and see whether you mature or not over time. It would be a bit sad if you didn't mature and stayed the same for the next 20 years.

-76m
 
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:57 am

I am not as uninformed as you people that disagree with me would like to think.

Your political arguments to date haven't done much to show that, however.

For example:

Taking us to war in Iraq based on obviously faulty intelligence. Where are the WMDs that nearly a 1000 of our own American troops and 1000s of innocent Iraqis have died for?

We actually HAVE found WMDs, in small amounts. Granted, any amount found will never be enough to satisfy those who keep asking "Where are the WMDs?" over and over again. The fact remains though that Saddam was in direct violation of UN Resolution 1441, and that, coupled with other factors about his corrupt regime, is why we went in.

Do you honestly believe that the war was based solely on WMDs? Seriously?

The war in Afghanistan. Why did we wait so long to find OBL? This is a clearly justified war that I 100% support. But why so few troops committed and why did we wait months to do it? Obviously it takes time to plan a war, but we could have easily started some strategic air strikes.

The only time we had OBL was when Sudan offered him up on a silver platter to President Clinton, who refused to play ball. Yes, we could have targeted him with airstrikes, but said strikes would need to be with tactical nuclear weapons to have had any success at getting him.

That wouldn't make us very popular, now would it?

And what's with this "so few troops" argument? Apparently we had enough to do the job there, but not quite enough to capture OBL. His capture was a secondary goal, though. The primary objective was the removal of the Taliban from power, as that corrupt government enabled al Qaeda to operate freely within Afghanistan.

And why the hell would we give illegal aliens drivers licenses and work permits?

While I disagree with the President's proposed "guest worker" program, giving drivers licenses to illegals were being proposed on the state, not federal level.

And most importantly, the complete destruction of the worlds opinion of AMerica after 9/11. We had the world's support after 9/11 and Bush managed to not only eliminate their support for us, but to also get them to HATE our gov't and even our people. We need a new leader to at least let half of our country calm down and let the world calm down too.

The President sought consensus from our allies around the world, and most agreed with the vision for the war on terror and enforcing UN resolutions. Unfortunately, a few did not agree and we were forced, with great regret, to do what we thought was right even though it did not coincide with their wishes. As you're probably aware, what is right is not always what's popular, and this Administration decided to make a stand and do what's right.

And locally, not introducing or getting enough funds for law enforcement and fire/ems to protect us after 9/11.

Unless I'm mistaken, state and local government spending is not something controlled by the President nor part of the Federal Budget. Care to cite a source backing your claim that somehow the President wasn't "introducing or getting enough funds" for law enforcement and fire/EMS personnel?







"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
FDXmech
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:59 am

>>>-Taking us to war in Iraq based on obviously faulty intelligence. Where are the WMDs that nearly a 1000 of our own American troops and 1000s of innocent Iraqis have died for?<<<

I think after 9/11, it was untenable to have Saddam regime in power. A bad scenario IMO would be for the UN to give Iraq a clean billl of health in regards to WMD, lifting sanctions and then for Saddam to resume business as usual.

On the other hand, if Bush never mentioned Iraq after 9/11, it's not that I would've been thinking, "why isn't he going after Saddam".
I'll give Bush the benefit of the doubt on this one.

>>>-The war in Afghanistan. Why did we wait so long to find OBL? This is a clearly justified war that I 100% support. But why so few troops committed and why did we wait months to do it? Obviously it takes time to plan a war, but we could have easily started some strategic air strikes.<<<

We didn't find OBL, yet. We invaded Afganistan very quickly after 9/11, though. I'm not sure what you mean by waiting months before going into Afghanistan. We began air ops October 07, 2001 & grounds ops October 19, 2001.

I disagree with the Bush illegal alien policy. Let's secure our borders.

The world opinion of the has US declined significantly, I hope it improves. I believe it will. Yet I wouldn't base our security on others opinion. I realize the cohesiveness of Europe immediately after 9/11, and I greatly appreciate it. But after the initial shock dissipated, so did the support. I'm disappointed in that the US had linked its security with Europe during the Cold War. An attack on Europe is an attack on us with all associated nukes and such. Now after the Cold War, much of Europe picks and chooses their fights. We suffered under no such illusion. But such is the world. The "Old Europe" comment I feel came with the administration's frustration of "where's my friends when I need them most". Unfortunately Schroeder getting reelected in Germany took precedence over our alliance. Demonizing the US to win an election was unfortunate. I'm not claiming any moral superiority with this, just look at the US Presidential election. It's like parents not fighting in front of the kids, a good habit. But once you do it a little bit, the dam breaks and the inhibition is gone - no holds barred.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
aloges
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:04 am

"Look, at 18 I thought I was very mature - everyone does.

Just wait and see whether you mature or not over time. It would be a bit sad if you didn't mature and stayed the same for the next 20 years.

-76m"


I love how people know so much about other people's maturity based on those people's age. Certainly, people change while years pass, but there is simply no way anyone can be classified as immature or mature based on his/her age. At least, this is the way it is in Germany, don't know if all US teenagers are immature.  Big grin
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
USAirways737
Topic Author
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:15 am

"Unless I'm mistaken, state and local government spending is not something controlled by the President nor part of the Federal Budget. Care to cite a source backing your claim that somehow the President wasn't "introducing or getting enough funds" for law enforcement and fire/EMS personnel?"

Yet somehow it is the federal governments responsibility to fund the destruction of a foreign government, then the rebuilding of that same foreign government all because we thought Saddam was a bad guy that we thought had WMDs but didn't.

And here are some sources to prove my point on Law enforcement cuts because of federal shortfalls.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-12-01-cops-cover_x.htm

http://www.fendonline.com/federaldaily/archive/2004/03/FD033004.htm#30a

http://www.lsj.com/news/local/030205cops1a-8a.html

"Minneapolis, Minn. – COP CRUNCH. Minneapolis blames its cop crunch on a lack of funding and the increased staffing demands of homeland security since Sept. 11. A hiring freeze in 2000 and 2001 contributed to a 2.4 percent reduction in the department’s police force by 2002, and recent city and state budget cuts may result in a lost of 80 to 100 police jobs in 2003."
http://www.ndol.org/documents/Cop_Crunch/Cop_Crunch_Minneapolis.pdf (Sorry about the source, but the info is indeed true)

Erik in MSP

 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:21 am

I'm glad you've come around about Bush. I used to be a solid supporter as well and gradually woke up, now I'm very against his re-election.



But truly, I think you underestimate Kerry. He's not a bad guy. IF you just watch and learn more about him I think you'd like him, he's really a nice guy with a great personality. He's just been in the senate so long that he tends to make things sound more complex than they are. He's not a flip-flopper either...he's just a thoughtful person who, like anyone else, may change his mind on something. I've changed my mind on a lot of things lately....so have you...so that's no reason to denounce Kerry.



But for god's sake don't wish ill on Kerry for Edwards to become President. I wouldn't wish ill on Bush at all...and not just because I hate Cheney, but because I don't believe that my political disagreements with Bush are cause for a death sentence. Please don't wish ill on Kerry.

[Edited 2004-07-07 20:22:52]
 
Leskova
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:22 am

FDXmech: The world opinion of the has US declined significantly, I hope it improves.
You're certainly not alone on that one...

I believe it will.
Your words in (insert deiity of choice) ear...

Yet I wouldn't base our security on others opinion.
Like people who get so fed up with US politics that they decide that it's worth shocking the people of the US by blowing something up within the US?

But after the initial shock dissipated, so did the support.
It wasn't so much the "initial shock" that dissipated, it was the transatlantic cooperation that existed before (and to this day exists in Afghanistan): suddenly, it was "you're either with us, or against us", without talking to the allies in Europe before making any statement...

I'm disappointed in that the US had linked its security with Europe during the Cold War. An attack on Europe is an attack on us with all associated nukes and such.
And, to this day, Europe considers an attack on the US as an attack on us all - as could be seen in the days after 9/11...

Now after the Cold War, much of Europe picks and chooses their fights.
So does the US - considering that there are several states that pose a much higher danger to the US than Iraq ever did, yet only Iraq was attacked...

The "Old Europe" comment I feel came with the administration's frustration of "where's my friends when I need them most".
Just imagine how frustrated quite a lot of people here in Europe were... here they were, actually wanting to support the US, but not getting the chance, because the US clearly didn't care at all for what they thought...

Unfortunately Schroeder getting reelected in Germany took precedence over our alliance. Demonizing the US to win an election was unfortunate.
It wasn't just unfortunate, it was plain and simply one of the dumbest things I've ever seen happening in German politics... aside from Schröder getting re-elected, that is...


USAirways737, it's good to see that there are people who are willing to look beyond "party lines" and form their own opinions: we've got people over here using lines like "My grandfather voted for the SPD, my father votes for the SPD, so I also vote for the SPD" (ok, the same probably applies to the other parties as well...) to explain why they vote for a specific party - no thought about it, they just vote for them, whether they're doing a good job or not.

Not the best thing to have in a democracy...


Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:28 am

It would be a bit sad if you didn't mature and stayed the same for the next 20 years.

Ask N6376m, he knows what it is like. Otherwise he wouldn't support his arguments with his irrelevant CV and company's annual report. It's sad how disrespectful you are towards poeple who work hard, just like USAirways
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:31 am

By the way, over 800 of America's troops have died in the war in Iraq. 644 died in actual combat, the rest died as a result of such silly things as car bombs, snipers, beheadings, roadside bombs, mobs.....and a few more died from accidents...friendly fire, etc.


I'd say they sure "count". Don't listen to B757300 when he tries to mislead you to believe those other numbers...that's just the combat death count, it doesnt count "other" deaths in Iraq. Well over 800 now.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:38 am

Listen, I don't need to be lectured on work ethics by anyone. I now run a $100M company that I started working at when I was in school myself. The first job I did was to take out the garbage and now I'm it's president.

Your bragging about your company doesn't really show your maturity.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:44 am

If there's one thing I noticed it's that whenever someone here complains about Bush....his supporters here automatically check your age and if it happens to be below 20...that's what they'll use against you.

N6376m, EA CO AS, I think you call your own credibility into question when you criticise someone's political view based on their age alone....and then promote yourself (n) as somehow better than them by touting your job position as if it somehow makes you a more educated and smarter voter. Get over it.


 
B747-437B
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:52 am

I personally want Bush to come back. That dodos continued presence as America's head honcho is beneficial of other countries like India and China.

Amen! Someone like Kerry with his protectionist job policies will not be particularly good for outsourcing. Thankfully Bush embraces a free market economic policy and realizes that there is a greater economic good earned from laying off lazy American workers in favor of more productive foreign ones.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:15 am

Yet somehow it is the federal governments responsibility to fund the destruction of a foreign government, then the rebuilding of that same foreign government

Well, since the Federal government IS responsible for matters of national security, the elimination of the regime in Iraq was part of their mandate.

Surely a learned individual such as yourself knew that though....right?  Insane

all because we thought Saddam was a bad guy

Are you insinuating that Saddam Hussein somehow isn't a bad guy?

that we thought had WMDs but didn't.

Again, he did have WMDs, and we've found small quantities of them already. Of course you're trying to make "we haven't found large amounts of WMDs" equal "they never existed," which is hogwash. He had them, we required he provide proof of their destruction and documentation of such, and did not.


N6376m, EA CO AS, I think you call your own credibility into question when you criticise someone's political view based on their age alone....and then promote yourself (n) as somehow better than them by touting your job position as if it somehow makes you a more educated and smarter voter. Get over it.

I defy you to show me where I said anything about my profession or how my job makes me more educated than USAirways737. I criticized his viewpoints based on his naivete and willingness to blindly accept the spoon-fed drivel that most liberals rely on to try and bash the current administration.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:19 am

EA CO AS, if you would look, I was addressing both you and N6376m in that sentence. You know exactly who the "profession" criticism was aimed at, and it wasn't you.

"I defy you" Oh please... Yeah sure
 
Leskova
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:26 am

I criticized his viewpoints based on his naivete and willingness to blindly accept the spoon-fed drivel that most liberals rely on to try and bash the current administration.

You mean as opposed to the drivel that the conservatives are spoon-fed to try and bash the current opposition?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
VectorVictor
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:27 am

My Libertarian inclinations and twenty-three years of voting has me firmly believing in R.E.N.O. Re-Elect No One.


http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
American Military Casualties in Iraq as of 07/7/04
In Combat: 646
Since war began: 872
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:30 am

"Listen, I don't need to be lectured on work ethics by anyone. I now run a $100M company that I started working at when I was in school myself. The first job I did was to take out the garbage and now I'm it's president."

You don't happen to drive to work in a BMW with interior by KIA do you?


 
jaysit
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:30 am

"Thankfully Bush embraces a free market economic policy and realizes that there is a greater economic good earned from laying off lazy American workers in favor of more productive foreign ones."

If that is Bush's rationale, then he has his work cut out telling American workers that "they are lazy." American workers even today have some of the highest productivity in the world. And even today, I have still to hear the President say that the jobs created in India and China fuel a demand for American goods and services, leaving the situation as a quid pro quo in general.

As far as Kerry's concerns on outsourcing are concerned, its all election year drivel. He has very close connections to pro-India lobbying organizations and all polls have shown that he has the overwhelming support of Americans of Indian descent. In fact, no one in the DNC is that concerned about the farming out of BPO and call center jobs to India. There is, however, a valid concern that there is no real replacement strategy in the US for a wholescale transfer of more high end jobs to India - which has already happened.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:45 am

"Well, since the Federal government IS responsible for matters of national security, the elimination of the regime in Iraq was part of their mandate."

That is assuming the war in Iraq is making America more secure. Your point would make sense if it were about the war in Afghanistan, since eliminating terrorists is a good thing, but pissing off the world to remove Saddam (who is a bad guy, when did I ever say he wasn't a bad guy anyway?) and all of those chemical, biological and nuclear weapons that he had  Yeah sure has not made us any safer. In fact, according to the Department of Homeland Security, we are still under "significant risk of terrorist attack" as we speak.

While I do feel safer after many of the new programs the government has implemented since 9/11, the war in Iraq has not been one to make me feel any safer living in America.

Erik in MSP
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:48 am

EA CO AS, if you would look, I was addressing both you and N6376m in that sentence. You know exactly who the "profession" criticism was aimed at, and it wasn't you.

My apologies. I didn't notice the "(n)" that you'd included in an effort to differentiate who you were aiming that criticism towards.

However, I still stand by my previous claim that most (pay particular attention to that word) people in that 16-20 age bracket who are students working at fast food restaurants tend to lack any degree of knowledge of the political process beside what they're spoon-fed by the media.

[Edited 2004-07-07 22:14:54]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
N6376M
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:08 am

I love it. The Mickey Mouse club is having a ball today. All these teenaged geniuses telling us all how things should work before they've even held a real job, pay for food or housing or been forced to see a third or more of their paychecks disappear in income taxes.

Well children, continue your rants about just how mature you all are and how much you know. We know, if kids ran the world everything would be perfect. We've all been there.

Just let me point out. The framers of the Constitution thought that it would be best if 25 was the minimum age for members of the House, 30 for the Senate and 35 for president - this at a time when young people were forced to assume much greater responsibility at an earlier age than they do now. It's not just me saying this, this is over 200 years history and experience speaking.
 
flight152
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:22 am

I love it. The Mickey Mouse club is having a ball today.

You sure do spend a lot of time here for being an "executive" at a 100M company. Don't you have some work to do?
 
AGrayson514
Posts: 385
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:29 am

"And sorry, but most 16-20 year old student/Sandwich Artists tend to be somewhat naive when it comes to political matters."

Actually, being young and naive may be a plus when developing political views. It means that they aren't tainted as much by your pocket book.

If you want a very interesting view on what's happening in the world, ask a ten year old. Tell them all the facts with no speculation or opinions added, and ask them what they think of it.

I'm 16 and already I've decided that joining any particular party is a bad idea. I think that everyone should think for themselves to formulate their own opinions, instead of just choosing one of someone else's.

I don't think that Bush was horrible, but look at America today. We can do better.

~ Andrew Grayson
Give a little bit...
 
USAirways737
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RE: Why I'm Not Voting For Bush Anymore

Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:31 am

N6376m

You seem to be stuck on the issue of age. Instead of attacking us on our positions, you have taken the very "mature" route of telling us how immature we are. I don't think any of us "immature teenagers" have tried to tell you we know all, or at least more than you, the rich, executive that runs his own company. We simply think you discount everything we say based on our age.

Another thing that is bothering is how many are all of a sudden labeling me as a liberal who is copying stuff from DNC websites. I think it is quite sad that you can't come to terms with the fact that there may be varying opinion within a political party. I am just more willing to let my opinions be known instead of holding them in and pretending I agree with everything our president says.

Erik in MSP

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