b757300
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Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:39 am

BAGHDAD, Iraq — Pleading for the life of a truck driver held hostage in Iraq, Philippine Undersecretary of Foreign Affairs Rafael Seguis (search) said the country would withdraw its troops "as soon as possible."

Seguis' appeal to the group holding Angelo dela Cruz (search) was aired on Arab-language television network Al-Jazeera on Tuesday. But he did not elaborate on whether the Philippines would move up their scheduled Aug. 20 pullout from Iraq.

It is unclear if dela Cruz is still alive. The militant group, the Iraqi Islamic Army-Khaled bin Al-Waleed Corps (search), had initially said they would kill the hostage by Sunday if the Philippines did not agree to pull out its 51-member peacekeeping force one month earlier than planned. Earlier on Monday, the Philippines announced that the kidnappers had extended their deadline to 3 p.m. EDT Tuesday.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,125451,00.html

Wow, the Philippines decide to pull a Spain. Didn't even take anything on the magnitude of multiple bombings and they've decided to run away with their tails tucked between their legs.

The sad thing is the guy is probably already dead but the Philippines have once again proven that a nation that doesn't have the will to fight will be forced to surrender at the alter of radical Islam. Expect the Al-Qaeda linked MILF terrorists to launch attacks in the coming months now that they know what tactics to use and that the government doesn't have the guts to fight back.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
aloges
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:48 am

Good for them.

And yes, I'm just saying this to piss you off, B757300.  Big grin
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:55 am

No, Gloria Macpagal Arroyo finaly refused to let Bush continue to pull her country into a war based on lies.
Also, there has been trouble in the Philippines concerning the US forces there, who acted against agreements.
Acc. to the constirtution of the Philippines, foreign forces are not allowed to act on their own in this country and this is what the American "advisers" did.

GMA is in charge of a country with a sizable Muslim population, and most trouble with them stems from the time of American colonialism (big fruit companies Dole and Del Monte getting control of whole provinces on the island of Mindenao, which is predominantly inhabited by Muslims) and the US sponsored dictatorship of Ferdinand Marcos, who disowned Muslims to settle christian Filipinos in formerly Muslim regions.

She finaly realised that she is responsible to the population of the Philippines and not the American president.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:56 am

Appeasment did not work in 1938 with Hitler and sure as hell won't work today with those creatures from AQ.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:03 am

Turbolet,

This doesn´t mean you´ve got to stick supporting Bush´s lies forever.
Also, I understand your feelings, but in my opinion, even if Chamberlain really trusted Hitler, it gained Britain about one year more time to go through a crash rearmament program. In 1938 the British forces were, due to neglect during the 20´s and early 30´s definitely not able to takle the German Army.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
solarix
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:30 am

She finaly realised that she is responsible to the population of the Philippines and not the American president.

Then why didn't she pull the troops out last week? Why did Manila wait until being blackmailed by terrorists before acting on something that is suppose to help the Philippine people?
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:31 am

Because she was only reinstated as president last week.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5455
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:35 am

MD11,
there are studies that suggest the same thing for Wehrmacht - difference in combat preparedness between 8/1938 and 9/1939 (i.e. Williamson Murray - The War of 1938), Germany having to fight on two fronts from the very beginning - of course, if France chose to honor its Czech-French ally treaty, clique within Wehrmacht's top-command opposing war in 1938, "Devil's Pact" Ribbentrop-Molotov was still to be signed.
The bottom line is: we should have ignored the Munich treaty, fight and most likely lose like the Poles did, but not having to deal with the Munich-trauma ever since. But there would have to be someone totally different sitting at Hradcany than Benes - a guy who was permitted to fail big time as a president twice in ten years - how sad!

Anyway, I don't want to "litter" this thread with irrelevant topic.

Come on, I am no fan of Dubya either, but this is not about Bush, is it?  Insane Saddam is gone and there's one dictator less - that's a good thing - whether GWB lied or not to make it happen is now irrelevant in Iraq, however its more than relevant for the US itself. The future of Iraq is at stake now and I suppose the objective is to make it as stable, secular and predictable as possible - some sort of local modification of democracy being a welcome bonus.
The presence of the foreign troops is to prevent civil war waged by those presumably tolerant and peace-loving Sunnis and Shiite and make sure the country doesn't get hijacked by extremists like those having fun beheading defenseless civilians.
The Filipino troops are not involved in any combat, are they? This is about a government of a sovereign country letting a bunch of cowards from bleakly defined Al-Qaida to define its foreign policy, cowards who don't have the guts to even not show their face. Spain set the trend, Philippines followed, who's next...

[Edited 2004-07-13 04:45:07]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:41 am

"No, Gloria Macpagal Arroyo finaly refused to let Bush continue to pull her country into a war based on lies.
"

What are these lies of which you speak?

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/594222/
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:42 am

Nice to see a *coalition* country actually caring about its people and soldiers...

I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:45 am

The thing about the Philippines is that the whole involvement in Iraq is highly controversial at home, same as the stationing of American "advisers" in Mindenao (esp. concerning the US as a former colonial power). Some Filipino militaries have been quoted that they would like to have the American equipment to give them an edge over the Abu Sayaff terrorists, but rather not the American soldiers.
Also, at the moment there is a controversy goping on between the Filipino veteran´s organisation and the American government concerning the pensions for the Filipino soldiers who fought in the US Army during WW2, when the Philippines was still an American colony.
The American government is still being accused in the Philippines of meddling too much in Filipino internal affairs.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:53 am

MD11,
but what is the relevance of your, otherwise very welcomed insight into Philippine politics, to the fact that a legitimate government lets a group of paramilitaries dictate its foreign policy?
If this tactics works for AQ or some other Islamist extremists- next time they will kidnap someone else and demand something involving those Abu Sayaff terrorists or Philippines, how will she deal with that? She fights terrorists on her own soil and surrenders to them abroad - a little schizophrenic approach, isn't it?

L410

[Edited 2004-07-13 04:54:51]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:17 pm

I think it is more the feeling of being involved in a war which is not their war. They have enough trouble going on at home (corrupt former president "Erap" Estrada left a whole heap of manure to be cleaned up, like undoing land reforms, which brough the communist NPA guerilla out again, which was almost gone. Estrada also acted against agreements made between his predecessor Ramos and various moderate Muslim organisations, forcing them into the corner of the radicals, which BTW, get financed by Saudi Arabia).
And don´t forget, those Al Qaeda terrorists could only get access to Iraq through the bad handling of the situation by the US. It looks also as if the Filipino government has been bullied into joining the "coalition of the willing" by threats concerning development aid and visa to the US. The country is highly depending on the Filipinos working overseas, who each year sent billions of dollar back to their homeland. Many of them work in the United States ansd in the Middle East. If theay would loose their work permits the whole country would suffer.

I expect that there will be a major UN intervention going on in Iraq within the next few years. I hope that under a robust and credible UN leadership most European countries and countries from Asia (incl. the Philippines) will work to bring peace to Iraq.

Jan

BTW, my personal interest in the Philippines comes from the fact that both my first wife and my current girlfriend are coming from there. My girlfriend is coming from a Christian province in Mindenao, about 50 km from the Muslim area. My daughter out of my first marriage has a Filipino citizenship beside the German one.
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:41 pm

Pulling out troops due to a major terror attack, as happened in Spain, I can live with.

Pulling out because ONE PERSON is kidnapped. That is sheer cowardice.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:01 pm

No, the point is that the majority of the Filipinos was against the involvement in Iraq from the beginning. Now with the results of the investigation showing the intelligence f+ckup AND the kidnapping the government has no reason anymore to stay in Iraq.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:09 pm

Fine, but there's more honorable, more sincere ways to pull out. Doing so in the face of ONE hostage sends completely the wrong signal. It's not like a major attack. And I think it shows a lack of fortitude.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:21 pm

So one person isn't worth it, but 270 dead is?

Isn't that a slippery slope? I would think that any concession due to a terror attack sends the wrong message...regardless of casualties.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
luisca
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:04 pm

Phillipines is mostly CATHOLIC not muslim, you have to understand that MD11Engenier
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
QIguy24
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:21 pm

Those phillipino troops werent even combat soldiers were they? I thought they were only there fonr humanitary reasons. But those coward terrorists obviosly doesn't want the best for Iraq.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:09 pm

Well, There goes another one of your coalition.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Before you know it, the US will be in Iraq alone with its long time puppy the UK. I thought Rumsfeld once said something as: 'we have built a strong coalition around us, we do not need the support of countries like France and Germany, that's just old Europe. The world has chanced, I look more to new Europe, to the East.'

Off course back then, those few countries, all joining out of opportunistic reasons and against the will of their population, hoped facts on the ground would prove them right, but now even Tony Blair admitted those stockpiles of WMDs will never be found, so where's the imminent danger? Where's the reason for this war in the first place? Therefore many governments of coalition nations get nervous as they feel they will be kicked out of office by their people (at least that's what we do with liars in Europe... we'll have to see what Americans do) so I think basically any pretext whatsoever is good to get out asap and be able to say to Washington: 'Hey, we still support you, but you see, we just have to leave you here, we can no longer ignore the will of our people at home...'

Expect Bulgaria, Rumania, and some other European counties which are still officially on your list to pull out in the coming months too.... You better call some more troops, Mr Bush, because soon no other country is going to fight that war of yours anymore.

[Edited 2004-07-13 11:10:47]
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:25 pm

Sabenapilot,
is doing what the terrorists tell you that "no longer ignore the will of our people at home..." of yours?
I'd say it's a road straight to hell!
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:31 pm

I say the only way to avoid embarrassing situations like these, when a country is forced to let criminals behead one or more of its nationals, simply because withdrawing its troops would be widely seen as 'giving in' (like South Korea had to do last month), is to withdraw IMMEDIATELY and UNILATERALY.

I strongly feel Italy, Poland, and other countries lucky enough not to have any hostages in Iraq right now, should benefit from the freedom to act and pull out immediately, just like the Spanish have done! Glad to see at least one government has the brains and guts to make the correct analysis: This in not a just war; it is not even our war. Let those who still feel this war is just fight it alone!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:50 pm

Just like the Spanish have done it very much the same way like the Philippines intend to. Remember that letter from AQ? "no more attacks on Spanish troops as long as their government does whatever we tell them" Things like that only give more legitimacy to AQ, because then it looks like they're running the show in Iraq.
Maybe the Polish and Italians feel different about Iraq? Why shloud they pull-out? Because someone in "Brussels" thinks it would fit the EU foreign policy?


[Edited 2004-07-13 12:09:12]
 
Banco
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:00 pm

The rights and wrongs of going into Iraq seem to me to be beside the point in terms of this situation. Equally, the belief as to whether the Philippines should have sent troops in at all is also beside the point.

I'm sure everyone, regardless of what the believe about Iraq is appalled at the hostage taking that has so far occurred. Equally, the reaction of the Filipino government in pulling out in response to the terrorist demands sets an appalling precedent, and ensures that it will continue. To those who crow about another coalition member withdrawing, perhaps taking a step back might be in order. Should the UN become more involved in Iraq, which is what many opponents of the war wish for, these actions will continue. We will see hostage taking, and demands that the constituent country withdraw their personnel from any UN operation, as well as any US/UK one.

These people do not greatly care what authority it is, they merely want them all out. Put aside your views on whether the coalition should or should not have gone in in the first place, we are dealing with current reality, not what might have been. In order for Iraq to have a chance, security, whether in the shape of the UN, NATO or just the US/UK and others, must be maintained.

This response merely ensures that the terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters (delete according to your viewpoint) are now completely convinced that their tactics work. They will continue to take foreign hostages for precisely that reason. The actions of the Philippines has made life harder for every other nation involved, and for the UN itself. That cannot be a good thing.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:09 pm

The idiocy is in full swing again...  Insane

Aznar lost the elections because he was caught in the attempt to manipulate the elections with the terrorist attack, not because of the attack itself!

Some of you are still too lazy to bother with the complicated and uncomfortable facts when it suits your cheap prejudices, apparently. It basically invalidates everything else you say...

[Edited 2004-07-13 12:26:30]
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:16 pm

So you are saying we have to do the exact opposite of what AQ asks us, just to show them we are serious? Ever considered what kind of countries those terrorists like most?
-) Countries like Spain or the Philippines which said: 'Here you have it, we're off?' And AQ saying 'Do as we say and nothing will happen to you'??? The effect of this kind of 'success' dies out in days, man.... Hardly anything to build wide spread support on in the Arab world too.
-) Countries like the US and the UK, which do exactly as you say: fighting with all means, thus making the inevitable mistakes from time to time, resulting in a daily stream of pictures of innocent wounded Muslims on all Arab networks and magazine covers?
Ever considered how come AQ is able to hide-and-strike the way they do? Because they have a wide support amongst the local population, maybe? And why's that, you think? AQ lives of the frustration of ordinary Muslims all over the world, a frustration fed from the fact these people feel emotionally linked to those Arab women, children and innocent men they see being humiliated, mistreated and killed by those very same countries AQ is fighting! AQ is living of frustration: the more frustration you cause, the more AQ will be flourishing.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:39 pm

Klaus,
it's not about Aznar or Zapatero winning or losing elections, but about the fact that they pulled out of Iraq as a consequence of the Madrid bombings or so soon after the bombings it just looks like the victory of AQ. And I don't think you truly believe that the effect of the bombings was not projected into the election results? Why would they choose it to perpetrate it so shortly before lections, then?

Sabena,
I don't think that the "success" dies out in days - exactly opposite - it will make it into the "textbooks" of every terrorist group from Jakarta to Casablanca. The lesson for them is: It Works! This is a moral victory of terrorism and we all will pay dearly for it.
AQ's living out of frustration is just nonsense - Iraq just happened to be a handy battleground where they could take it on the the US/UK/the West. Like what was the frustration of Atta and co.? Of course without the obligatory "frustration" over the plight of Palestinians that every Arab seems to be so preoccupied with, yet this pose is about maximum they care about them.
AQ's does not give sh*t about ordinary Iraqis - that's why so many of them is getting killed as result of their bombings. I think that the Iraqis would like the troops out, but this resistance supported from god knows where - only delays the Day of Normalcy to come to Iraq.
 
Klaus
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L410Turbolet

Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:49 pm

L410Turbolet: it's not about Aznar or Zapatero winning or losing elections, but about the fact that they pulled out of Iraq as a consequence of the Madrid bombings or so soon after the bombings

They pulled out of Iraq after kicking out a lying and manipulating government that had dragged them into the invasion against overwhelming popular opinion. Nothing else. (And quite possibly a foreshadowing of this November in the USA.)


L410Turbolet: it just looks like the victory of AQ. And I don't think you truly believe that the effect of the bombings was not projected into the election results? Why would they choose it to perpetrate it so shortly before lections, then?

Aznar would most probably have won the elections even with the attacks had he not tried to abuse it for further political gains. Your prejudice against the spaniards is misplaced and incorrect.
 
Gman94
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:00 pm

They pulled out of Iraq after kicking out a lying and manipulating government that had dragged them into the invasion against overwhelming popular opinion.

No they kicked out a government based on the actions of terrorists. The polls a few days before the Madrid bombings still had Aznars party comfortably winning the election.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:05 pm

Rumsfeld once said something as: 'we have built a strong coalition around us, we do not need the support of countries like France and Germany, that's just old Europe

First of all, I think he was right. The EU has pronounced itself as the future of Europe. France has since the days of Napolean thought of itself as a world power, but in the 20th century has only prayed for the help of countries like England and the US to save it from being dominated by another country. Also, Germany has done nothing in the 20th century but be a pain in the west's side. While in the later part of the 20th century we have had good relations with at least West Germany, I can't imagine a time where we can say that the US can say that Germany was the only one to stand beside us.

I think the Philippines made a very bad decision. How many troops did they really have there? 50-60? What a friend we have in the Philippines.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Klaus
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Gman94

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:15 pm

Gman94: No they kicked out a government based on the actions of terrorists. The polls a few days before the Madrid bombings still had Aznars party comfortably winning the election.

No. Opinion only soured after the manipulations became apparent. The attacks themselves didn´t cause the change.

By the way, if the spaniards were backing down when confronted with terrorists, they would have had decades to do that before with their very own ETA - but they never flinched. Neither conservatives nor socialists.

Contrary to the USA, the spanish population had always been strongly opposed to the Iraq attack. And finally seeing Aznar´s manipulations pushed them over the edge. (Aznar even went so far as to give fellow european police agencies false information to keep up his charade. If there had been another attack elsewhere that could have been avoided with the suppressed information from Spain, the repercussions would have been severe!)
 
ryanb741
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:15 pm

What I can't understand is why in all of the hostage cases no rescue attempt has been made. Surely the best message to send terrorists is sending in the special forces
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Klaus
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Ryanb741

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:19 pm


Where exactly?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:29 pm

Klaus,
I don't understand what prejudice against Spaniards you are talking about? The only thing I'm saying is that Spain's pulling out of Iraq was cowardly letting the terrorist define policy of a sovereign country - BUT not liking Zapatero does not mean not liking Spaniards. Same as not being too much excited about the Schroeder-Chirac gang DOES NOT mean having something against the Germans or French as such.

BTW, you are a bit contradicting yourself:

They pulled out of Iraq after kicking out a lying and manipulating government that had dragged them into the invasion against overwhelming popular opinion.

Aznar would most probably have won the elections even with the attacks had he not tried to abuse it for further political gains.

So did Aznar lose because of the bombings or because of that "overwhelming popular opinion" against Spain's involment in Iraq? I believe the bombing were the decisive factor, but I might be wrong, but there were definitely other options i.e. to gradually downscale Spanish presence in Iraq, other than pulling out almost overnight - this tells something about reliability of an ally - regardless whether the presence is just or not - but as an ally you have certain commitments that one shoul honor and not just ride the populist wave of opinion polls - exactly like Zapatero did.

[Edited 2004-07-13 13:36:02]
 
ryanb741
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:30 pm

Surely the intelligence agencies can work it out.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Klaus
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Ryanb741

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:40 pm

If they could, they would intervene, I have no doubts about that. Quite similar to nobody being able to find Osama, it appears.
 
Klaus
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L410Turbolet

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:54 pm

L410Turbolet: I don't understand what prejudice against Spaniards you are talking about? The only thing I'm saying is that Spain's pulling out of Iraq was cowardly

Exactly that. It´s a conveniently simple prejudice contradicted by evidence.


L410Turbolet: BTW, you are a bit contradicting yourself:

No, I´m not. The spanish population was convinced that the invasion was wrong from the start; It wasn´t a question of fear (many countries have troops deployed in Afghanistan with full popular support). Aznar apparently was too afraid that the Madrid attack might be held against him, so he attempted to manipulate the public.

That the voters had a particularly dim view of these machinations in light of what had happened before is quite understandable.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:58 pm

Re: Surely the intelligence agencies can work it out.

Yeah - they've done SUCH a good job with intelligence on Iraq so far - spot on every time !
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:06 pm

Exactly that. It´s a conveniently simple prejudice contradicted by evidence.

Klaus,
I'd say it's just an opinion. Your opinion is different and I think you have every right to believe whatever you want to. It's a good idea to look up the meaning of words first before using them.
 
Gman94
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:24 pm

I don't see how Aznar tried to manipulate the Madrid terrorist attacks to his advantage. If a terrorist attack happened in the UK my first instinct would be to blame Irish terrorists before any other terrorist group, same as if I was Spanish I would first think it was ETA before another terrorist group.

What would of happened if he had of blamed Islamic terrorists and it turnt out to be ETA, would you still be throwing mud at him?
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:28 pm

Thanks for making anyone not from the middle east an even bigger target.

Signed,
Every non-middle easterner in the area
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
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RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:29 pm

L410Turbolet,

I don't see any contradiction in what Klaus said! It is a perfect analysis of the election result in Spain.

Aznar might have managed to stay in power despite the overwhelming popular opinion against this war (which is well documented and undisputed, even by the most strong pro-war activists in Spain) because Spain's presence in Iraq was not the only election issue originally: unemployment, economic recovery, social security, taxation, pension reforms etc were all on the list too.
People in general were not to happy about the Spanish presence in Iraq, but a majority of them could find themselves in the Conservative's ideas on the various other topics at stake in the elections, more than in the Socialist alternatives.
However, the Madrid bombings were indeed the decisive factor as they put the war in Iraq up in front on the agenda, a war which was heavily opposed in the streets. This renewed attention for this unjust war combined with the flagrant manipulations and lies both in the run up to and the aftermath of the war prompted people to vote the conservatives out!

You talk about the reliability of an ally and about commitments towards the USA that should be honoured, but what are you talking about? Zapatero and his Socialist Party voted AGAINST sending troops to Iraq in Parliament in the first place, they had the pull out of Iraq on their election program and when democratically elected, they did just that. Talking about a commitment! Zapatero made a commitment to his voters and he honoured it! He never made a commitment to Bush; Aznar did, but since when are people bound by commitments made by others? Because these commitments were made not so much by Aznar as a person, but as the Prime Minister of his country? Should a newly elected leader of a country stick to the course set out by his ousted predecessor? Is a free nation not entitled to change it's mind? Is this the democracy and freedom GWB is talking about all day?

Now that the main reason of the war in Iraq has become 'regime change' due to a lack of any WMDs, I am sure you can agree to the fact a democratically achieved regime change back in Spain may change the way Spain acts on the international forum, just like the regime chance in Iraq turned that country around, don't you? Or do I sense a contradiction there?  Wink/being sarcastic




 
qantas744
Posts: 1658
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 6:25 pm

RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:46 pm

The greatest terrorist threat in the UK is from AQ not Irish Republicans and it has been like that since 9/11 but even more so since the current Iraq war started. 10 years ago things were different, but times have changed.

Aznar totally tried to manipulate the situation in Madrid, an attack by ETA would not have had a negative effect on his poll ratings but an attack by AQ would be disasterous since Aznar had pretty much ignored the opinion of the Spanish public who were 90% against the war in Iraq, Spanish voters were made to feel vulnerable and there response was to remove the threat of further action which in this case translated into removing Aznar from office and replacing the ruling party with one that promised to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq.

In the run up to the UK election in 1992 the IRA mounted an offensive with a number of bombs going off around the country which were designed not to cause physical damage to people but rather to create disruption and chaos. There was no such action prior to the 1997 or 2001 elections but we will probably have an election next year and if a terrorist incident occurs you can be pretty sure that AQ will be responsible this time and we are all aware of what they are capable of and how much tragedy they are able to inflict.


Matt
you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5455
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:57 pm

Sabena,
my objection is not much against the fact that they pulled out of Iraq, but against the timing and the fact they did it as a consequence of the bombings, which made it an AQ victory. Don't tell me there was really a need for such a theatrical quick pull-out without any consultations?
And the quick withdrawal from Iraq is again not about Bush, but about Spain failing as an ally by leaving a "loophole" and putting everyone else from Americans to Italians or Poles in danger - not Bush paying golf in Texas but ordinary Joe, Luigi or Jacek serving in Iraq. Alliances should stand above the 4-year election lifespan of obscure politicans and that's why Zapatero was to a limited extent bound by the commitment made by Aznar.
The very same way it would be a failure if let's say British pulled out in a day or two from Germany in fall 1945 after Churchill was defeated in elections. Whether you think that war was just and this one is not is IRRELEVANT.

 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

L410Turbolet

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:04 pm

L410Turbolet: I'd say it's just an opinion. Your opinion is different and I think you have every right to believe whatever you want to. It's a good idea to look up the meaning of words first before using them.

Dictionary.com/prejudice: prej·u·dice

1.
a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
b. A preconceived preference or idea.

2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.


When you are talking about "cowardice" as the cause of the spanish withdrawal from Iraq, you´re clearly uttering a judgment rather than a mere opinion, and it is clearly not based on actual information.

I´d keep the link to Dictionary.com if I were you.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5455
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:21 pm

Klaus,
since neither me nor you (am I wrong?) have English as native language I think its rather tricky to argue about meaning of words.
In my understanding, I'd be prejudiced against Spaniards if I was posting threads like "Spaniards are cowards because they are Spanish and have red-and*yellow flag. However, my opinion is that it was cowardly from the Spanish government to withdraw from Iraq and especially to withdraw so quickly and so soon after the Madrid bombings, whether or not Zapatero really honoured some election promise or rather let down Bush in any way he could (that's why you like it so much, right?) will be forgotten in two years from now but what will be remembered is the withdrawal as a symbol and precedent of concessions to terrorists.
If you consider me prejudiced, because I don't buy your version of "facts" (as much as you don't buy mine), is your problem and I think you are using way too strong words - perhaps running out of arguments?
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:45 pm

L410Turbolet:

"So did Aznar lose because of the bombings or because of that "overwhelming popular opinion" against Spain's involment in Iraq? "

Aznar lost because of his government's mishandling of the situation inmediately after the Madrid Attacks, but not only that. He had previously shown the Spanish public he didn't give a sh!t about what they thought and did whatever he wanted to do because of his party's majority in Spanish Congress. No inquiry into the decision to go to war was established as happened in other Coalition countries such as the US and the UK, for the simple reason that Aznar controlled congress. Aznar failed to listen to the growning criticism on various items during his presidency and this whole situation came to a climax after the Madrid bombings when once again his government tried to manipulate the Public Opinion which would favour their re-election a couple of days later. Nearly 70% of the Spanish Public (from the whole political spectrum) believed Aznar's goverment manipulated the information available on the authors of the attacks.

Right now, Spain's particular '9/11' public hearings are being carried out and the preliminary results give strong indications there was manipulation: ("Evidence against former Spanish gov't mounts" http://afr.com/articles/2004/07/09/1089000319823.html).

And regarding the suppossed Spanish cowardice regarding terrorism, please remember that terrorism is not something the spanish people have never experienced. In the nearly 12 years that I have lived in Madrid, I've experienced 3 terrorists-attacks in which several people were killed. It's is something unfortunately so normal in Spanish everyday live, that people have come accustomed to it. So this whole 'fear for terrorism' and 'appeasement' is complete bullsh!t. Not only that, calling spanish people 'cowards' regarding terrorism is not only a grave insult, it also shows ignorance regarding Spain's particular struggle with terrorism over the past decades. Did you know that ETA was not considered a terrorist organization by the US until a couple of years ago?

Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:53 pm

Isn't that a slippery slope? I would think that any concession due to a terror attack sends the wrong message...regardless of casualties.

Even a million, James? I think a nation DOES have a threshold it reaches, where it should perhaps reconsider policy, but doing so with ONE person taken hostage is just a knee-jerk reaction, and one that is made out of a fear far out of proportion to the event. I just believe this is a gross over-reaction by South Korea, far out of proportion to what has happened.

I say the only way to avoid embarrassing situations like these, when a country is forced to let criminals behead one or more of its nationals, simply because withdrawing its troops would be widely seen as 'giving in' (like South Korea had to do last month), is to withdraw IMMEDIATELY and UNILATERALY.

Do that, and you let the terrorists win, in every situation. You tell them that their actions will CHANGE THE WAY YOU LIVE AND HOW YOU ACT. If you want to live as a coward, go ahead, but it won't stop the terrorists, it will only embolden them, and eventually, they'll be knocking at your front door.

The goal should to be to stomp on these sub-human terrorists, not cower in fear in front of them. If the world does what you want, you will be no safer, my friend, and more, not less, people will die from these creeps.

This isn't a world that is conducive to cowardice, so crawl in your scared little hole, and pray you stay safe, because what you propose makes the world less safe, not more safe.

So you are saying we have to do the exact opposite of what AQ asks us, just to show them we are serious?

No, but you don't give them a diplomatic blow job, as you would want the world to do. You want to get on your knees in front of these thugs, and give into whatever their demands are.

What's next? Should a nation give up everything it is to satisfy these guys-and satisfy YOUR personal cowardice?

Perhaps the war in Iraq wasn't the proper thing to do. But to do as you want, Sabenapilot, to surrender to these scum every time they take a hostage, is the most idiotic, naive, and cowardly thing I think I've ever read on here. It's not how you defete terrorsim. What you would do would embolden these scum to become more brazen and daring.

So like I said, craw under your cowardly little hole, and hide from the world, because that's what, in essence, you propose. And, despite my dislike of his policies, and how he started this war, I'd side with George Bush over the likes of you, any day.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5455
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:02 pm

Just to set the record straight, Schoenorama - I NEVER called the SPANISH PEOPLE cowards but cowardly the actions of Zapatero's GOVERNMENT. And we tend to differentiate between nations and their governments here on a.net, correct? Please reread my previous posts.

 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Philippines Surrender To Terrorists

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:08 pm

Luisca,

90% Catholic, 5% Muslim, rest protestant, Bhuddist, Animist.
This still makes it about half a million Muslims in their country, not immigrants but citizens.

Jan

[Edited 2004-07-13 16:11:41]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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