jamesag96
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French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:15 am

Have you all seen this:

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040705092601.7br3lleq.html

First question...is this real?
Second question...is she for real?

"She said that France has a mobile, flexible and highly-motivated military and that it was the second or third best in the world."

Interesting read...if it real.
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JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:22 am

Makes sense in terms of closer Franco-German defense cooperation. France has nukes (for better or worse) and Germany does not - the only other EU member with nuclear weapons is the UK. If European defense cooperation is to proceed, clearly nuclear forces have to be included somewhere in the equation, although I would be surprised if any suggestion is made that these forces are moved out of national control. But to have these forces (while still subject to national control) available for use in the defense of the greater European whole, makes a lot of sense.

She's right about Europe needing to spend more on defense, though - its not reasonable to rely on the US so heavily, since the Cold War threat has now largely evaporated.
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Alpha 1
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:22 am

If true, what's the problem? That was U.S. policy, and, to some extent, still is. We touted our "nuclear umbrealla" for decades, and used it as a threat to keep the USSR from attack us or Western Europe.

It is interesting, but it isn't anything that hasn't been done in the past.
 
jamesag96
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:25 am

What I thought interesting was her comment on defense spending in the EU, and her statment that France's military was the 2nd or 3rd best in the world.

Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:29 am

I don't have facts or figures to hand, but in terms of equipment and training and the ability to project force around the globe, I would imagine France is right up there, probably 3rd after the US and UK. France currently has military operations ongoing in Afghanistan, Haiti and Cote d'Ivoire, possible in the DRC as well (not sure) and other UN operations. I think the naval side is not so strong, the one aircraft carrier "Charles De Gaulle" was obsolete before she was even commissioned.
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ben
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:29 am

We touted our "nuclear umbrealla" for decades, and used it as a threat to keep the USSR from attack us or Western Europe.

Yeah yeah, ok that is true but based on the absolutely incorrect assumption that 'they' are evil and want to attack us, and 'we' are friendly good people.

'They' used their nuclear umbrella for decades as a threat to stop you from attacking the USSR and Eastern Europe. It works both ways.
 
ryanb741
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:29 am

Unlikely the French military is in the top 3 - but then again I don't know how much they have been spending recently. BTW, I estimate 10 minutes before the 1st 'Surrender Monkeys' post. Big grin
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Gman94
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:32 am

During the 60th anniversary D-Day celebrations, a defence analyst on BBC or Sky (I can't remember for sure), said that today only the US, British and French had an effective combined military with the ability to carry out large scale operations. I would say that all three militaries are mobile, flexible and motivated which seems to be required in today's world.
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cfalk
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:35 am

If, say, Turkey invades Greece, or Russia invades Hungary, do you really believe that France will be willing to use its nukes to defend another EU state? Or will they wring their hands and ask for negotiations at the UN?

Charles
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JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:38 am

Ryanb741 - if France is not no.3, who would you say is ? In terms of equipment, mobility and motivation, Russia and China, while numerically obviously HUGELY superior, probably are not a match - who else is there ? Israel ? Well equipped and motivated, but not vast force projection possiblities and quite a small navy.

I'd say the estimate of no.3 for France is about right.
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ryanb741
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:47 am

I would say that Russia or China would be number three IMHO.
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JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:51 am

In terms of the ability to generally kick butt (which, after all, is what you need from an army !), you're probably right. Having a million tanks does tend to lend a certain credibility !  Smile/happy/getting dizzy - but in terms of modern equipment and mobility, France has Russia and China both beat.
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yanksn4
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:54 am

Yeah yeah, ok that is true but based on the absolutely incorrect assumption that 'they' are evil and want to attack us, and 'we' are friendly good people.

So killing everyone who disagrees with you , putting people in prison for many years for saying one word, killing its own citizens, and arming groups that want to spread it is not evil?
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ryanb741
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:03 am

Well according to figures provided to the UN by the UK and USA, the most powerful militaries are;

1. Iraq (Loads of WMD) Big grin
2. North Korea (tonnes and tonnes of nukes)  Big grin
3. Syria (Smuggled WMDs from Iraq).  Big grin

In all reality I maintain it is;

1. USA
2. Russia
3. China or UK or France depending on how you measure the stats
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ben
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:05 am

So killing everyone who disagrees with you , putting people in prison for many years for saying one word, killing its own citizens, and arming groups that want to spread it is not evil?

I dont have the time or energy to get into this fight but you are 1. Wrong and 2. Being a hypocrite.

I hope someone here (with the energy) will demolish you for those remarks.
 
Gman94
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:08 am

A military is not measured in sheer numbers but on how they effectively use what's available. Russia and China do have huge armies compared to the French and the UK, but I doubt if they would be able to be deployed, used effectively and be motivated to fight as well as the French and British militaries.
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Banco
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:08 am

As a matter of interest, what form do French nuclear weapons take?

Are they bombs or missiles? If missiles, what range do they have?
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JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:14 am

Yanksn4 - clearly you studied at the "Bullwinkle Moose" school of international politics. Alas, the world is not that black and white. The US was not always Dudley Do-Right, and the Soviet Union was not always Boris and Natasha, with big round bombs marked "BOMB".

- Killing their own citizens. The US has the highest rate of judicial execution in the world. And don't even get me started on gun control or lack thereof.

- Putting people in prison unjustly. Two words. Camp Delta. Until the US tries those people in a duly convened civilian court of law, and convicts them, the US cannot claim any moral high ground about the rule of law.

- Arming groups etc etc. Contras, Taliban, UNITA - the list of US-sponsored "liberation groups" is long and very very unenlightening. Two can (and did) play at that game.

Nobody said life under communism was all beer and skittles - far from it. But all the stuff you were talking about, it wasn't evil - it was just politics. Hard to tell the difference, sometimes.
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GOTbound
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:14 am

And the French complains about Uncle W... threaten to use Nukes on rouge country's, well Uncle W didn't nuke neither Afghanistan or Iraq.

Anglo-French-German co-operation, to much history involved to make it work for real. A strong EU (incl. France as PART of it, not the self proclaimed super-power of it) with NATO (all EU non NATO members included) merged in to the Union and a stronger co-operation with USA both military and financial is what the "free-world" need to succeed.

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Gman94
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:14 am





French Nuclear Arsenal

Strategic Delivery Systems

Strategic Nuclear Delivery Vehicle
Year Deployed
Maximum Range (km)
Launcher Total
Warhead
Warhead Yield
Notes

SLBM
M-4 1985 4,000 48 6 x MRV, TN-70/72 150 KT On 4 L'Inflexible SSBNs
M-45 1996 5,300 16 6 x MIRV, TN-75 100 KT On 1 Le Triomphant SSBN
Air
Mirage 2000N 1988 1,205 45 1 ASMP 300 KT -
Super Etendard 1980 850 24 1 ASMP 300 KT Carrier-based

Summary of French Nuclear Arsenal:

The French nuclear arsenal, largely a legacy of De Gaulle's insistance on French strategic independence, is the third largest in the world. Until 1996, it was deployed on a triad mirroring those of Russia and the United States. However, in February 1996, President Chirac announced his intention to eliminate the land-based deterrent, destroying the Hades and SSBS S3D missiles.

Yet in tandem with this reduction, France is undertaking a modernization of its sea-based deterrent force, with the first of a new SSBN class, the Le Triomphant, along with a new SLBM, the M-45. The controversial nuclear testing at Mururoa Atoll in 1995-96 was reportedly done to perfect warhead design. The French are even pressing forward with an advanced SLBM design, the M-51, complete with a stealthy, manuevering warhead called the TN-76.

The means of air delivery will remain potent, though the last French nuclear gravity bombs have been retired. The Mirage 2000N and carrier-based Super Etendard fighter-bombers are available to deliver short-range nuclear ASMP missiles. A follow-on to the current ASMP missile, dubbed the ASMP+ is under development and is slated to enter service in 2007. The new French nuclear role aircraft, the Rafale D, should be ready then as well.

The French arsenal at the moment is rife with contradictions -- while the reductions are sweeping and encouraging, the modernization program is widespread. The French would probably not engage in multilateral arms control until the U.S. and Russia came down to approximately the same warhead level.

Strategic Nuclear Weapons: 482

Nonstrategic Nuclear Weapons: 0

Total Nuclear Weapons: 482

Taken from:

http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/nukestab.html

Not sure how up to date it is though.

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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:18 am

Banco,

French nukes are on the La Redoubtable class of SSBNs. Highly capable Multi-target ICBMs, with a global reach.

In terms of military strength its:

1) US
2) China
3) India
4) UK
5) Russia
6) Spain
7) Israel
8) Pakistan
9) Germany
10) Greece

This is based on Air Force, Army, Navy, Special Forces, Power Projection, and manpower basis - and is my best guess. Its a little skewed as Israel has a very powerful army and air force but aside from i think three corvettes, no Navy to speak of, whereas Spain has a kick ass navy, and a kick ass air force but not so much of a powerful army. I'd also contend that India will eclipse China in the next ten years.
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Banco
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:26 am

You've missed out France completely there, Chris! Big grin
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JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:29 am

I think he did it on purpose  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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donder10
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:31 am

In terms of global reach France is still strong.It has permanent troop bases in Gabon,Tchad,Congo-Brazzaville in Africa alone.Anybody know whether they have a base in Nouvelle Caledonie or French Guiana?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:36 am

Donder10 - I expect France has some kind of military presence in all the DOM/TOM's - if only to annoy the locals.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:36 am

Germany´s military is still mostly a home defense force (legacy of cold war and restrictions at the end of WW2). This means we´ve got lots of tanks, APCs and anti tank helicopüters plus motorised infantry, a Navy, which is more ore less adapted to defend the Baltic and the North Sea and a lack of air transport capacity. Face it, back in 1956 when the Bundeswehr was built up, no European neighbour wanted to have a German military around, which was able to project power. There are several restrictions in the German constitution as well, like that it is a crime to plan or accomplish a war of agression. The Bundeswehr was supposed to be able to stop a predicted armoured attack by Warsaw pact forces long enough for the Americans and Canadians to deploy troops across the Atlantic ocean.

Those restrictions still play a role today. In a recent embarassment in Kosovo, Bundeswhr troops got themselves into a dilema facing violent demonstrators armed with rocks, torches ansd sticks. Teargas is considered a banned chemical weapon in the regulastions of the Bundeswehr, on the other hand the soldiers could hardly open fire on "unarmed" protestors. If they had been armed with firearms, it would have been a different story (as seen a few years ago, a few bursts with a MG3 (modified MG-42) and the fight was over). Also the soldiers lack police training in crowd control.

Jan
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Delta767300ER
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:47 pm

I would think Turkey is more powerful than Greece?

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jwenting
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:16 pm

France will indeed have the capability to tell any nation wanting to quit the EU that they can nuke them unless they abandon their foolish ideas that they can get out from under the Franco/German yoke.
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JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:17 pm

Starting with you, Jwenting - what are your coodinates ?
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Banco
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:27 pm

France will indeed have the capability to tell any nation wanting to quit the EU that they can nuke them unless they abandon their foolish ideas that they can get out from under the Franco/German yoke.

LOL. Very good. Oh. You mean it wasn't a joke?  Wow!

Where could we start pointing up the ludicrousness of this post? Is it even worth the effort?

I could answer it, but I just can't be bothered.  Insane
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JGPH1A
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:32 pm

Don't worry, Banco - he wasn't joking. Jwenting is our resident Dutch ultra-nationalist, who wants to bring back the Feudal System and the Spanish Inquisition, but only if it can be less commie-pinko-liberal.
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777236ER
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:40 pm

putting people in prison for many years for saying one word, killing its own citizens, and arming groups that want to spread it is not evil?

Guantanamo, executions, weapons to Al Qaeda and Saddam up until the 90s.

 Smile
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JeffM
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:04 am

And let's not forget how well those Frenchy's can march backward! Must take lots of practice. One whole aircraft carrier?


I'm glad I don't live anywhere in the EU and have to have France watching my back... I can see it now.... "o.k. you guys, quit being a bully to Germany, or we will have to go to the United Nations and tell on you....and in two or three years we will attack, if they let us....!"

Powerful, real powerful.
 
GDB
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:20 am

France is, like it or not, very proud of it's nuclear forces.
Partly because the US did not approve.

It caused France's fracture from NATO in the mid 60's, well that and DeGaulle's ego.
But the expense did make French conventional forces suffer, apart from the legacy of KC-135 tankers brought to refuel France's first delivery system, the Mirage IVA bomber.

Work started in the 50's with a secret agreement with Israel, Israel had many talented people, France had the money and testing facilities, the first generation of French and Israeli weapons were derived from the early French tests, but then DeGaulle (him again!) decides that the only nation with any involvement with French nuclear weapons, will be France.

In the past, these French weapons have featured in Bastille day parades, usually the now retired shorter ranged rockets used by the French Army, maybe even a mocked up IRBM and/or SLBM, can you imagine the fuss if the RN towed a mocked up Polaris or Trident in a military parade in the UK?
Imagine the demos at say the London Lord Mayor's parade!

The UK started on a similar independent road, but when it came to replacing the V-Bombers, balked at the cost.
So a deal, US provide, at a knock down price, Polaris A3 boosters and re-entry vehicles, the UK builds the subs and warheads.
Then the USSR starts building a thin ABM system around Moscow, not a problem for the US, but maybe for the smaller UK force who's sole target for the strategic weapons are major population centres, since the only use for the force is to prevent the USSR driving a wedge between Britain and America by threatening UK population centers, but not US ones.

In the early 70's, replacing the recently delivered Polaris with the newer Poseidon, to counter any Soviet ABMs, was not a political or economic option.
So, in secret, a UK only programme to upgrade the Polaris was approved, called Chevaline.
From 1974-80 still secret, after that the cost overruns leaked out, but by 1982 it was in service, along with refurbished Polaris boosters.
Chevaline was a MIRV like vehicle, replacing either one or two of the three A3 warheads with a range of decoys and other penetration devices.

Then Trident, same deal as Polaris, but much more expensive and really the D5 version eventually picked for similarity with the USN, was way beyond UK requirements, the perils of being locked in.
Now these carry very few warheads and are the only UK nukes, since the free-fall bombs were retired.

Better maybe to have built new subs, take Chevaline a stage further building on the experience of this programme, build new boosters to the same general spec as Polaris.
It would have been even better to do a joint project with France from the start, in the early 60's, but you know who would probably have stopped that.

As for conventional forces, France is strong in many areas, rapid deployment (which they are now starting to really improve after lean years), they've a good and experienced special ops group, it was foolish to sell that carrier to Brazil before a sister to CDG was built, CDG has had it's problems, but once the new propellers (from a R/R owned US company!) are fitted and the
Rafale Ms are at strength it will have a powerful airgroup of Rafales, E-2C's and choppers.
A sister is now approved, a conventional take off and landing version of the UK CVF, a 50-60000 tonner.

France is investing heavily in network-centric warfare and UAV's, they need a heavy lift chopper, new tankers (A330's probably), but their forces have a damn good reputation, for instance it's been France, UK and the Dutch nabbing those war criminals in the former Yugoslavia, their intelligence knows more about Islamic extremists than any other Western agency, and were trying to warn both the UK and US of this threat before Sept 11th.

In a decades time, a UK/French task group with an air group of RN F-35s and MN Rafales, will be a potent deployment force, backed up with the new amphibious warface assets now in UK and French shipyards.

If, and it's a big if, the UK decides to replace Trident, it now seems very unlikely that a big strategic system will be considered, the RAF has (and has used in Iraq last year) a UK version of a French airborne weapon, the Storm Shadow stealthy cruise missile derived from the Scalp EG, further improvements to this are in the pipeline, along with ship and possibly sub launched versions, clearly this has the potential to be an eventual Trident replacement.

But any new UK nuclear system will be very controversial, I doubt a new French system will be however.

 
dl021
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:35 am

France ahs the equivelant of 4 land divisions and a air force that is large only by european standards. They cannot project power, and are limited by language and technology in their ability to operate with other armed forces. They have a military smaller than ROK, Japan, Germany, the UK, Russia, India, PRC, DPRK, and others. THeir advantage of nuclear weapons is mooted by the fact that they will never be used offensively so they do not really influence foreign policy or other countries military thinking.

The French military is (at least as far as the Legion and the Parachutist/Marine regiments go) professional and well led, but their governmental constraints have often prevented them from beingused properly (exceptions being Chad and Zaire).

When the French dissassociated themselves from the Unified command structure of NATO (for purely political reasons of national pride) they reduced their overall effectiveness and ability to influence world events. They will argue that point and make claims, but look at the diminishing francophone world and see who looks at France as anything more than a spoiler or agent provacateur willing to sell weapons to anyone with cash or oil.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:41 am

Inmy opinion the ability to project power, as used by the US since the emnd of the cold war, is mostly used to bully other people, a succession of old colonial style gun boat diplomacy. Anyway, France will probably work in conjunction with other European militaries.

Also, do you mean that the US government is willing to use it´s nukes offensively, e.g. in a war of aggression?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
GDB
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:35 am

Usual stuff from JeffM, failed, un-funny, wannabe shock jock style.
Maybe a French lady once turned him down and/or was once disparaging about him.

The French were good enough to send strike aircraft and ground forces to Afghanistan, separate from the peacekeeping mission.

They go about their tasks quietly, generally speaking, their film industry does not see fit to make loads of juvenile action movies full of augmentative but superhero special forces wiping out all the bad guys single handed.
Maybe they've a bit more of a mature and realistic view of military force, it's potential and limitations.

In a counter insurgency situation, a difficult sensitive job that's as much about not creating more support for insurgents as about dealing with actual bad guys, I'm willing to bet, because I've heard it anecdotally, given a choice in this situation of operating with French or US troops, most British personnel would opt for the French.

That may not be the choice in a full scale conflict requiring a lot of air power with all the heavy and high tech kit, but the limited counter insurgency one is the one much more likely to be faced, increasingly so.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:08 am

Yeah yeah, ok that is true but based on the absolutely incorrect assumption that 'they' are evil and want to attack us, and 'we' are friendly good people.

Yeah, Ben!!! You got it right! Since prior to 1989 my country was 'they' and as shameful as it is I have to say it was pretty evil. The CSLA (Czechoslovak People's [like who else's? Nuts] Army was designed as first-strike offensive army within the Warsaw Pact relying on the Russian model of using massive force of armor and infantry. The plans were that Czech, Polish and East-German armies were the first-wave with objective to reach Rhein River in two, three days to be replaced (or what'd left of them) with Red Army reinforcements .
Also there were plans by Stalin to launch WW3 before 1960. Luckily, the bastard is frying in hell since 1953. Acting devilish  Acting devilish  Acting devilish

Or maybe you just forgot to put the "absolute incorrect" in quotation marks, right???
 
pelican
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:01 am

Yeah yeah, ok that is true but based on the absolutely incorrect assumption that 'they' are evil and want to attack us, and 'we' are friendly good people.

You're right, communism was a cute, peaceful mentality in Eastern Europe.

The US has the highest rate of judicial execution in the world.

Okay, judicial is maybe not the right word for Chinese executions

Anybody know whether they have a base in Nouvelle Caledonie or French Guiana?

At least La Legion Etranger is in French Guiana.

Partly because the US did not approve.

Today it's a generally accepted cognition that US intelligence helped France to develop their bomb.

At the moment there are only five nations with modern, highly sophisticated nuclear weapons: USA, Russia, France, UK and Israel.
I would rate France as number 3. The Russian and Chinese military aren't able to deploy there troops over a wide distance. The German military has no WMD's and are aligned to lad warfare.

BTW You shouldn't forget Japan. There military isn't very big but there equipment is state of the art and they have the ability to increase their capacities very fast. However there constitution is very restrictive (at the moment).

edit: pelican




[Edited 2004-07-16 01:03:21]
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:09 am

At the moment there are only five nations with modern, highly sophisticated nuclear weapons: USA, Russia, France, UK and Israel.

Pelican,
I only hope Russia knows WHERE they have those nukes. I saw this documentary about a Russian Army unit that operates the silos with ICBMs and it was SCARY. They said that although maintaining the rockets costs like 1/3 of the Russian defense budget, the commanding officer still has to have a second job as a taxi driver to get by! Not to mention regular conscripts...
 
pelican
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:17 am

You can't loose nukes for a long time.
At least when the first terrorist uses one you know were it is.

Their other WMS's aren't kept better (actually it has to be worse if the need 1/3 to maintain the nukes).

pelican
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:25 pm

The other thing is that most nukes need regular maintenance, or they will just pop. For example the trigger neutron source usualy contains tritium or polonium and that stuff brewaks down within a few years.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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JeffM
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:09 pm

"The French were good enough to send strike aircraft and ground forces to Afghanistan, separate from the peacekeeping mission."

How nice of them.

I still wouldn't want them covering my ass ....
 
GDB
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:32 am

Maybe if the US had not relied on those unreliable Northern Alliance thugs, who's loyalty changes rapidly, for cash or land, think on that when considering how virtually all the Al-Queda leadership got away.
And why the situation is far from stable even now.
NATO nations offered plenty of professional troops, few were taken, Germany also offered large numbers of mountain warfare troops, proper mountain warfare, unlike say the US 10th 'Mountain' Division. Quote from a member 'we don't do mountains'.

Eisenhower reckoned that the attacks by large French Resistance formations on D-Day were worth a score of divisions.
Oh I forgot, that was an all US affair, Hollywood said so.
(Why do I think that this thread is going way above the head of the intended target?)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: French Def. Min.-We Can Protect The EU With Nukes?

Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:39 am

Concerning the British and American relationship with De Gaulle during WW2 check this link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/allies_at_war_01.shtml

Looks as if Roosevelt wanted to have a puppet president for France and De Gaullle told him to stick it up, with Churchill in the middle...

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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