garnetpalmetto
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Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:23 am

South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
go canada!
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:29 am

The main point is this from the report:

"Leigh Winchell, a senior official for the Department of Homeland Security, paints a painful truth: "We have to respond to calls -- that's the day and age we live in. What would the public reaction be if we didn't follow through?"

Yet, authorities should have an obligation to use their training and common sense to assess a situation. They should be able to quickly determine a student taking class photos from a terrorist. They should be able to do their job without resorting to intimidating swagger that leaves a grown man in tears."

It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:31 am

The part that got me is that there were plenty of other people taking pictures. Why, pray tell, were they not questioned as well? Terrorists come in all colors, not just brown, after all.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
go canada!
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:32 am

McVeigh was white as he not as was the 'shoe bomber' richard reid. You cant pick terrorists out based on skin colour.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
LHMark
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:32 am

The story as it is written would deserve peoples' outrage, but I wonder if it's been sensationalized a bit. It's an op/ed piece rather than a news report, so the writer's agenda is expected to come through.

The guy wasn't detained, and the piece makes no mention of longer-term ramifications stemming from this event. I just question how traumatizing the whole thing actually was.

"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
B747forlife
Posts: 386
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:34 am

I'm sorry, but it comes down to profiling, not anything else. Sept. 11 was done by Middle Eastern males. Terrorism in general throughout the world (at least the fundamentalist Muslim kind) is perpetuated by Middle Eastern males. Its a fact of life, and while its not pretty, it is true.

Runaway fear? Give me a break.

-Nick
 
JeffM
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:36 am

It's no big deal just because it happened to poor brown skinned Ian.... Those of us that photograph the airliners that make this site what it is experience this quite a bit. I am far from being "brown skinned" and routinely get stopped and checked. Sometimes from the same officer. I'll admit it can be annoying, and I'll agree the officers could be more tactful at times, they really are just doing their job. They are the ones who will "catch hell" if something ever does happen and they were too lazy to check someone out.

You can always file a complaint.....
 
L.1011
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:38 am

This is indeed an outrage, and is why we need to make sure the people at Homeland Security will do their job properly.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:38 am

Prepare to be outraged? For what?

If I am asked for my I.D. by a uniformed cop showing a badge you know what I do? I freakin show it to him.

If I see what I think is suspicious activity from somone around a bridge you know what I do? I call the authorities.

What is truly sad and depressing is that the world has changed and now I, we, have to be more observing of the world around us.

Sucks that he had to go through that, but how do you "quickly determine a student taking calss photos from a terrorist?"
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
NWA742
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:32 am

Like others have said, outraged FOR WHAT?

So the guy was questioned by intimidating officers as to what he was doing on a few occasions.



This happens to a lot of people all the time, including a number of white American spotters who contribute to this site.

Besides that fact, if they really are profiling, I don't have a problem with it at all.

Like Dennis Miller once said something like,

"I'm very proud of our nation and the improvements on security at airports, however, when the airport screeners must refuse to tell a difference between grandma with a cane and sweaty Abul with a ticking briefcase, I see a problem in that."



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:56 am

I see the United States of America, which I used to admire for it´s idea of freedom, slowly turning into a police state with more and more powwer going to the executive. What are you guys scared of?
Come here to Europe, take pictures of bridges, buildings, railway stations, airports, nobody is going to stop you.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:11 am

I don't remember 9/11 happening in Europe. Perhaps with more observance 3/11 could have been prevented.

It sucks, and it is sad, but things have changed and we have to deal with it.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:31 am

It sucks, and it is sad, but things have changed and we have to deal with it.

Indeed, the Americans have changed into a state of paranoia. The terrorists got you exactly where they wanted to get you: in scare.

The problem is that you guys don't realize that.

I don't remember 9/11 happening in Europe.

Declare a war also on some other countries in the ME-region, based on lies, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some more terror attacks in the US.

Bush is creating terrorism, not stopping it (and the figures of the past year seem to prove that).
 
NWA742
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:37 am

Indeed, the Americans have changed into a state of paranoia. The terrorists got you exactly where they wanted to get you: in scare.

Oh come on Sabena, think about it. Just because we have more strict security and law enforcement doesn't mean that we, as a people, are paranoid. It's simply a necessary result of the horrible attacks against us.

Americans are not people who hide away from threats such as terrorism. We are NOT paranoid. I actually find it funny that you think you're in a position to judge us the way you just did.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
go canada!
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:38 am

"Come here to Europe, take pictures of bridges, buildings, railway stations, airports, nobody is going to stop you."

Except in greece, a member of the EU where 11 british nationals were jailed for taking photos of planes. They were plane spotters!
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:47 am

Apparently they were taking pictures of military planes on a military airfield (though I´m not sure about the later), and were arrested for espionage. I know plenty of US and Germany military installations around here were big signs on the fence tell that taking pictures is forbidden. This doesn´t apply to CIVILIAN installations though.

Sidenote: A few years ago (pre 9/11), when I was still working in SNN, Ireland, an Irish colleague told me a funny story about Galway airport. Apparently they had an airshow and two USAF F-15s came over for a visit. The American commander though didn´t want to have people taking pictures too closely of the planes, so he insisted that the planes should be parked on a remote parking spot close to the airport fence, with a hedgerow and fields on the other side. Only thing he didn´t know was that this spot, once you crawled through the hedge up to the fence, was the favourite spot for the Irish spotters, and they had the planes parked not even 20 yards away from them. Big grin

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:54 am

"Bush is creating terrorism, not stopping it (and the figures of the past year seem to prove that). "

Great commentary on world events, and proof of your grasp of history. I don't know where you have been for the last 20 years but this didn't "appear" out of thin air when Bush took office.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:10 am

Great commentary on world events, and proof of your grasp of history. I don't know where you have been for the last 20 years but this didn't "appear" out of thin air when Bush took office.

I have studied enough history in the past years to know what I'm talking about. And I'm not talking about secondary school...

It's a disagreement in opinion: you find that Bush is doing a good job for terror, I find that he is doing a bad job. You have your arguments pro, I have my arguments contra.

@NWA742: come to the EU, and you will see that we even don't talk about terrorism. We have been confronted with terrorism for so many years, that it became part of life. What happened in the US is cruel indeed, but when you want to react (and the US HAS to take measures), take those measures based on your brains, and not on your emotions.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:29 am

I didn't say I thought Bush was doing a good job...I said he isn't "creating" terrorism, it was around way before Mr. Bush took office.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:10 am

He tried to explain he was a photo student who had done nothing wrong and shouldn't have to show his ID. One of the men, Ian says, erupted: "See this badge! This is a federal badge! I'm with homeland security!"

Intimidating tactics are one thing. A presumption that Ian -- who says he tried to be cooperative while not forfeiting his rights -- was guilty of something sinister is another.


Lesson #1 dont be a smartass when a federal officer asks for some ID, no you dont have a constitutional right to not be identified. Had he done what was asked the situation could have quickly been quelled.

If you look at Ian's smooth, light-brown complexion you could jump to the conclusion that he is vaguely Middle Eastern looking or Latin, maybe even Muslim.

Put a camera in his hands and place him near federal property such as the locks and Ian transforms into, well, what else? A potential terrorist.



Lesson #2, you can thank the middle eastern individuals who flew 4 Aircraft to their doom, and killed approx 3000 people. Face facts it was middle easterners who did it, its middle easterners who commit most of the terror these days, and if you look like a middle easterner life is gonna be different for you just as it is for everyone nowadays.

"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
dl021
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:16 am

I see the United States of America, which I used to admire for it´s idea of freedom, slowly turning into a police state with more and more powwer going to the executive. What are you guys scared of?
Come here to Europe, take pictures of bridges, buildings, railway stations, airports, nobody is going to stop you.


md11engineer hey, are you really going to tell me that Western Europe is freer than the US? You have not spent enough time here to make that judgement. Either that or you are unwilling to face the truth. Western Europe is where the cops and paramilitary gendarmes put down the riots and walk their beats with automatic weapons. Europe is where ham radio operators were more restricted than anywhere else. Europe is where the airport cops walk around with submachine guns as a matter of course. Europe was where the Aerospatiale offices behind my grandmothers apartment were bombed and no people wanted to give the terrorists their prisoners back.
What is who scared of?

@NWA742: come to the EU, and you will see that we even don't talk about terrorism. We have been confronted with terrorism for so many years, that it became part of life. What happened in the US is cruel indeed, but when you want to react (and the US HAS to take measures), take those measures based on your brains, and not on your emotions.

Sabena690 Right! Well I have probably spent more of my life in your country than you have in mine, and I will tell you that what you said is part of the problem. Europeans have become used to terrorism and have accepted it. You feel that it is like an unruly (mal eleve) child...manageable and as long as the damage is kept to a minimum not worth getting excited about. Well we feel differently. We feel that we should be able to go to a ballgame or to the metro and not have to worry about car bombs or kidnapping. We think that if we are challenged by terrorists that we should NOT appease them and allow them to think that their method of persuasion is acceptable.

Is Bush doing a good job? Well how many people were happy with Roosevelt after the first two years of WW2? About half of the voters and very few europeans.. sounds familiar?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:51 am

>>>I see the United States of America, which I used to admire for it´s idea of freedom, slowly turning into a police state with more and more powwer going to the executive. What are you guys scared of?
Come here to Europe, take pictures of bridges, buildings, railway stations, airports, nobody is going to stop you.
<<<

Have you ever heard of French anti-terror judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3031640.stm

A small snippet follows

Besides accusations of heavy-handedness and abuse of preventive detention, critics accuse Mr Bruguiere and his colleagues of not giving defendants a fair chance.

Examining judges are supposed to keep an open mind during their investigations, but according to Mr Baudouin, French anti-terror judges systematically side with the prosecution.

"They prepare extremely long, complicated questions, provide the answers themselves, and then ask - what do you say about this?" he says. "There is no real dialogue with suspects."

Such criticisms, however, are confined to France's small human rights community.

They are occasionally mentioned by left-leaning newspapers like Le Monde, but fail to have an impact with the population at large.

For the overwhelming majority of French people and politicians, Mr Bruguiere is a hero.

And in this post-11 September world, they feel that an erosion of civil liberties is a small price to pay for the sense of increased security that comes with having a powerful "sheriff" around.


This judge is great.

Jan, get real. This guy is just another crybaby, I'm not losing any sleep because this mans "inner child" was violated.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:55 am


Lesson #2, you can thank the middle eastern individuals who flew 4 Aircraft to their doom, and killed approx 3000 people. Face facts it was middle easterners who did it, its middle easterners who commit most of the terror these days, and if you look like a middle easterner life is gonna be different for you just as it is for everyone nowadays.


Great - so when are we going to start profiling white males who approach federal buildings? Last I checked, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols weren't very Middle Eastern.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:59 am

>>>Great - so when are we going to start profiling white males who approach federal buildings? Last I checked, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols weren't very Middle Eastern.<<<

You're onto something!!! The politically correct strategy in fighting terrorism.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:03 am

The plane spotters infringed on clearly marked interdictions around a military airport (incidentally also used by civilian traffic).
If one cannot understand the meaning of a big red cross on a big camera, sorry for him.
Tough we know they did not spy, still Greek law governs this country, not our interpretation of it or its relevance.

Sabena690 don't you let yourself drift off course. Bush has not created terrorism, but his decisions led to stimulating it. There is an interesting interview of Hans Blix running on BBC for the moment (in "hard talk")

DI021 Europe freer ? freer of fear you mean ?
We have head our share of terrorism a very long time before the US of A.
Since that time yes, police and paramilitary are carrying automatic weapons in and around every "sensitive" place. We have had more than two decades to get use to it and everyone less than 35-40 do not even realize that we have also been through a very similar process.
RAF in Germany, AD in France, BR in Italy, pro-Palestinian groups, etc...that's now history.

Concerning ham radio frequency and power restrictions in Europe, kindly note there was something called a cold war here and there are 3 dozen countries contained in the same area as the US of A.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:25 am

Anyone else here remember when racial profiling was called something else: Effective police work.


Say you are a police officer in a predominantly white, upper middle class area. You see two black guys sitting around in a rust covered 88 chevy caprice at 3am outside a house. Do you stop and talk to them? If you answered yes you just racially profiled.

I am not saying haul them out of the car and beat them, I am saying walk up to the window and ask if something is wrong.

You work for the Airport police force, you are a real cop, not the rent-a-cop variety. You see a cluster of clearly arab men standing around at the end of a runway holding unknown objects in their hands. Do you maybe stop by and see what they are upto. If you said yes, you racially profiled

I am not saying pin them down, strip search them, interrogate them, detain them for a week and beat them for good measure. I am saying go out and talk to them.

Bring on the flames
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
777236ER
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:31 am

I fail to see what right the police has to 'ask' why you're anywhere. If you're not comitting a crime the police should leave you alone. If they ask to see your ID, refuse to show them unless they arrest you.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:40 am

I fail to see what right the police has to 'ask' why you're anywhere. If you're not comitting a crime the police should leave you alone. If they ask to see your ID, refuse to show them unless they arrest you.

Yeah thats really smart, let them arrest you first and then let them take your ID, wow that makes so much sense, are you sure your not a rocket scientist?

Geez how about, you respect the authority figuire, politely comply, and walk away with dignity.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:48 am

"Great - so when are we going to start profiling white males who approach federal buildings? Last I checked, Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols weren't very Middle Eastern."

Good point, of course they are the only two dumb shits to pull anything like that amid a sea of Middle Eastern attackers since 1979.

Well put Garnet.

And more brilliance:

"I fail to see what right the police has to 'ask' why you're anywhere. If you're not comitting a crime the police should leave you alone. If they ask to see your ID, refuse to show them unless they arrest you."

Come on guys, it isn't hard to just show your ID and be done with it...unless of course you want to be an asshole about it and give the authorities a hard time for the fun of it. Rarely is anyone asked for ID or stopped for absolutely nothing.



Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:54 am

Yeah thats really smart, let them arrest you first and then let them take your ID, wow that makes so much sense, are you sure your not a rocket scientist?

It makes lots of sense.

If they arrest me they have to have a reason. If they don't have a reason, I open a lawsuit for wrongful arrest.

If they don't arrest me, I'm not showing them my ID. It's nothing to do with them who I am and why I am where I am. There isn't a law against not showing ID to police.

Rarely is anyone asked for ID or stopped for absolutely nothing.

As countless users of this website can attest to, that's not the case.

Geez how about, you respect the authority figuire, politely comply, and walk away with dignity.

Police officers aren't authority figures. They don't make laws.

Police officers are employed by me to stop and apprehend criminals - a person refusing to show ID isn't a criminal.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:12 am

"If they don't have a reason, I open a lawsuit for wrongful arrest."

Something for nothing eh...sounds about right from you. Or, you could just pony up the ID and end the whole thing quickly.

"As countless users of this website can attest to, that's not the case."

Countless? Really countless? Well just cause I am slow and from Texas would you mind pointing out a few. If you could, go ahead and figure out what percentage of A.Net posters have had that experience and then extrapolate that to represent the gen. pop. here in the states. Let me know what you get...my bet...its rare.

"a person refusing to show ID isn't a criminal."

How do they know that? They don't know who he/she is.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:19 am

Something for nothing eh...sounds about right from you. Or, you could just pony up the ID and end the whole thing quickly.

Why should I?

It's not the right of the police to know who I am and why I am where I am. It has nothing to do with them.

Countless? Really countless? Well just cause I am slow and from Texas would you mind pointing out a few. If you could, go ahead and figure out what percentage of A.Net posters have had that experience and then extrapolate that to represent the gen. pop. here in the states. Let me know what you get...my bet...its rare.

Whose rare? What's a 'rare'?

The article discussed photographers. Just like the ones in the aviation forum. Why don't you make the same points there? Unfortunatly the search isn't working for me, but rest assured many there have been asked for ID.

Why?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Nancy
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 1:54 pm

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:19 am

I guess I'm more suspicious, but if I were an officer would ask people sitting in a car at 3 am or clustered at the end of a runway holding something what they were doing if they were white too. I think that if there is suspicious activity we shouldn't look the other way when people are white. I wonder about the whole picture taking concern too though. With some of the technology that's available you could be so far away, or the camera could be so small that no one would even see you take a picture of most landmarks.
 
iakobos
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:19 am

777236ER
Are you positive a citizen in the UK can deny showing his ID when asked by a (regular) policeman ?
If this is the case, you are the only country I know of ...
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:21 am

Iakobos,

we don't have national ID, hence it's impossible for police to ask for ID!

Police have the right to stop and search, based on 'reasonable grounds'. There is evidence that this has been abused, especially with ethnic minorities. Police don't have the right to stop and ask for ID, nor to arrest on a whim.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:25 am

no identity card ? no driver licence ? ...hum, suspicious...
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:26 am

We have drivers' licences, but not everyone can drive.

It's not an ID card.

What's so 'suspicious'? What's the point in ID cards?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:28 am

This article discussed one guy...

This thread isn't in that forum, it is here, and you and Garnet are making erroneous and irresponsible comments to which I am responding.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:30 am

Explain to me what business it is of the police what anyone is doing taking photos of planes, and why 'ID' would help?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:49 am

...even carrying false ID is not a punishable offence in the UK...
ok, I surrender !

Though, may I assume the police has some PC's and a kind of database of suspects, criminal records, etc... how can they ever positively identify some one without a proper ID ?
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:53 am

The point of my example was sort of missed. It doesn't matter what color the people are, it is probably a good idea for the police to TALK to them regardless of their color. But if they are of color or specific ethnic descent it becomes racial profiling, or effective police work depending on what time period you are considering this.

I am not saying ask them for ID but if asked why not show it, assuming you have it? I really hope you don't have anywhere important to be the day you decide to make the big scene over not showing ID, you are going to be in handcuffs most of the day. Oh and you won't technically be arrested.. just detained.. which they can do for a fair amount of time, legally, if they suspect you of something.

[Edited 2004-07-15 02:54:13]
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:30 pm

Oh and you won't technically be arrested.. just detained.. which they can do for a fair amount of time, legally, if they suspect you of something.

They can caution you here, but they still need to have reasonable evidence to suspect you of something. Not showing your ID isn't reasonable evidence.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:06 pm

They can caution you here, but they still need to have reasonable evidence to suspect you of something.

If you think the world follows the letter of the law. If called before a judge they could say you resembled someone who committed a crime. Like it or not if you fuck with the cops they can make your life difficult

Usually if they are asking for your ID they are looking for someone who fits your description. Showing your ID 99 times out of 100 establishes your innocence.

I guess in the world of 777236ER the police just wander around asking random people for their ID so they can check if they have any warrants out, I guess they really have nothing better to do. If they do catch someone like this it means paperwork, it also means arresting you, dragging your ass to jail, court apperances, all kinds of things the typical overworked american police officer would like to avoid.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:15 pm

I don't quite know why you're giving 777236ER such a hard time on this. what he says is correct. The police have to have reasonable cause here before they can stop you. If you are arguing that the police do have the right to ask for ID, then in effect you are saying that you have a national ID scheme, and that you must carry it with you at all times. I can imagine many an American getting hot under the collar at such a suggestion.

I have to re-inforce what 777236ER is saying here. If I were stopped by the police and asked for ID I would want to know why. If they gave me a plausible reason, then certainly I would help them out and show it to them. But they cannot simply ask you to produce ID on a whim.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
CaptOveur
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Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:32 pm

I also know that if the police want to make your life difficult they really can, and be within the law. Also, the police are not just going to go around randomly IDing people, unless you call drunk or seatbelt checkpoints random IDing, which some do.

Like i said, I want to be there and watch how much time 777236ER wastes when he throws a hissy fit when a police officer asks to see his ID.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:47 pm

Well,this is where I think you're misunderstanding the point. It isn't 777236ER being unreasonably contrary about this; I suspect a hell of a lot of the population here would react in the same way. "Why do you want to know", "what have I done wrong" etc etc. The police do not have the right to ask you to produce ID, which is why such a reaction is distinctly possible from anyone.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
VectorVictor
Posts: 384
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:31 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:34 pm

Nothing like a good quote or two (as repetitive as they might seem having been posted in these forum a time or two before)

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
-Thomas Jefferson

Frankly, the thuggery and broodish behavior that seems commonplace in law enforcement at all levels in the USA leaves a lot to be desired. Well intentioned folks - like the one in the story - will always be the one to pay the price while the true villians will remain on the lam.

I am little disenchanted that some are willing to condone the "whatever it takes" police tactics so that their safety may be secured. The "Hey, I have nothing to hide. I'm not worried" defense eventually erodes freedoms and gives power to the state.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:17 am

Quotation by Martin Niemöller, submarine commander in WW! and later pastor of a protestant church in Berlin Germany, served time in a Nazi concentration camp:

When they were arresting the communists I didn´t protest, because I wasn´t a communist.
When they arrested the trade unionists I didn´t protest, because I wasn´t a trade unionist.
When they came to arrest the Jews I didn´t protest, because I wasn´t a Jew.
When they came to arrest the liberals I didn´t say anything, because I wasn´t a liberal.
When they came to arrest me, there was nobody left to protest.



Rgds,
Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:30 am

I understand the arguments being put out by some, but here's what enrages me. The federal officials questioned Spiers because he was taking photographs. Fine. I can understand that. But why not then question everyone there with a camera?

Yes, I'll agree, Spiers could have easily avoided the mess by simply showing his ID to the Fed, but what made them choose ONE photographer out of a flock of photographers at the Locks?
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Look What Happens When We Let Fear Control Us

Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:05 am

I wouldn't throw a hissy fit at any policeman asking to see 'my ID' (whatever that is given we don't have a national ID card).

I would politely refuse. Whatever I was doing would be my business, not the police's. If I wasn't breaking the law, the police would have no reason to stop me at all.

I'm rather surprised at the responce. It seems to me that the American right-wing is completly against police intrusion and are the same types who set up militias in order to 'protect their own', because the police won't do it for you.
Your bone's got a little machine

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