ly7e7
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Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:54 am

2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
JeffM
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:17 am

A true hero.


.
 
jcs17
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:21 am

A real hero in history--he saved millions of lives, Japanese and American by dropping the bomb on Nagasaki.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
b757300
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:24 am



Rest in Peace, General Sweeney

(And Alpha1, you're right on in what you said in this thread.)
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:30 am

"About one-third of Nagasaki City was destroyed and 150,000 people killed or injured, and it was said at the time that this area would be devoid of vegetation for 75 years."
http://www.csi.ad.jp/suzuhari-es/1000cranes/nagasaki/

Yeah, true hero...
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:32 am

I have no personal feelings for Mr. Sweeney. However I believe that Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were not necessary. The war would have been won anyways with Soviet and American troops invading Japan. Hundreds of thousands of innocent lives were taken. That does not make Sweeney a hero.

I also do not like remarks in the spirit of "he was doing his job" . That is unacceptable. There are comparisons for that that I'd hate myself to make.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Continental
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:36 am

He is a true hero. He helped prevent the Japanese from killing even more! He basically totally ended WWII.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:43 am

With regards to the military state of the conflict in Japan and surrounding area in fall 1945 - the war was supposed to end without loosing more then 200.000 lives. US did not save a single life by dropping that bomb. It's more like the bomb had to be tested in the real world situation. Another reason is purely political - w/o the A-bomb Soviets would probably invade Japan (a move they started in Sept. 45).
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
NWA742
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:47 am

US did not save a single life by dropping that bomb.

Bullshit, I'm no historian by any means, but I know that the sole purposes of dropping those bombs were to end the war and save millions of lives that would be lost (on BOTH sides) with an invasion of Japan--which would've had to occur if we didn't nuke them, because they sure as hell weren't going to stand down until they did get nuked.



-NWA742

[Edited 2004-07-18 19:47:34]

[Edited 2004-07-18 19:48:08]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
rjpieces
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:51 am

What did Alpha say that got deleted?

Usher, are you serious? I can't stand this whole "we are all people" line that many Europeans use. You are dammed right I care about American citizens first.....As far as I'm concerned, a million Japanese could have been bomed in order to save some American lives. They declared war, they live with the results.

And the bombing did save many lives. If America had been forced to invade, the Japs would have fought to the end and many more Americans and Japanese would have died.

May he rest in peace.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:54 am

NWA742:
If you are not historian (not even an amateur one) please do some research. I understand your patriotic feelings, but you have to try to see a broader view.

Invasion was on its way. Red Army even performed some reconnaissance landings on the Japanese land. After fierce battles of Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, etc. US simply prefered to choose an easier way. Unfortunately it was an unhuman way.

[Edited 2004-07-18 19:56:10]
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
NWA742
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:58 am

What did Alpha say that got deleted?

I don't remember exactly, but nothing unnecessary------I don't know why his post was deleted.

US simply prefered to choose an easier way. Unfortunately it was an unhuman way.

Or, maybe a way that would end up costing less lives to end the war. Yep, that's an unhuman way alright.  Insane



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
go canada!
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:59 am

If the USA had invaded Japan the body count would have been higher. The other point to make was that Japan started an agressive war for no good reason.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:06 am

If your concern is total number of lives lost - you are wrong.

2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
go canada!
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:08 am

The total number of lives lost in WW2 would have been HIGHER had it not been for the two a bombs being dropped.

As you are living in Israel, please answer me this, if heaven forbid The arab armies invaded and Israel was in a war it could not end would you not back a nuclear strike?
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:09 am

The other point to make was that Japan started an agressive war for no good reason.

No one argues about that. Japan had to be defeated. The method is questionable.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
NWA742
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:17 am

If your concern is total number of lives lost - you are wrong.

How is that?

Japan had to be defeated. The method is questionable.

If the method hadn't been used, a full invasion of Japan would've had to occur. That would cost millions of lives on both the Japanese and American side, everybody knows that. The method that was used ended up killing thousands and thousands, but hadn't it been used, we would be looking at millions and millions today.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
go canada!
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:17 am

Theres no easy option in war.America took the option it believed would save more lives.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Guest

RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:22 am

NWA742:

"If the method hadn't been used, a full invasion of Japan would've had to occur."

To that, I say bullshit. The bomb did not need to be dropped on a civilian center. The ratio of soldiers to civilians in Hiroshima was something on the order of 15:1.

The point of the bomb was to say "surrender, or we'll eradicate you". We didn't HAVE to start with eradication on such a collossal scale.
 
NWA742
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:25 am

To that, I say bullshit. The bomb did not need to be dropped on a civilian center. The ratio of soldiers to civilians in Hiroshima was something on the order of 15:1.

The point of the bomb was to say "surrender, or we'll eradicate you". We didn't HAVE to start with eradication on such a collossal scale.


I agree, dropping the bomb on civilian centers was to get them to surrender. That's why I agree with what we did, because if we didn't get them to stand down, we would've had to invade them, or nuke them again, costing millions of lives more than what those two bombs did.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
N766UA
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:31 am

Actually, the original plan was to nuke our way into Japan, creating a path. This would have caused hundreds of thousands more lives lost and, since we didn't know of radiation at the time, thousands of our own troops would have died.

This is sad, though. We just lost Bob Morgan not long ago, as well. As the old adage goes, whenever someone dies, an entire world dies along with them. I'm sure they were very interesting men.
This Website Censors Me
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:32 am

NWA742 :
You agnore the Soviet military power that was there as well. Again, it was also a political decision - Showing the US power to the USSR in order to keep them out of Japan.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
N766UA
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:37 am

That's right. We didn't want the Russians in Japan. That would mean another Korea, a communist North and a free South.
This Website Censors Me
 
NWA742
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:39 am

NWA742 :
You agnore the Soviet military power that was there as well. Again, it was also a political decision - Showing the US power to the USSR in order to keep them out of Japan.


Well, believe what you want LY7E7, but I'm just talking about the MAIN reasons the bombs were dropped, to end the war and save lives--it was a political decision to end the war, and a moral decision to save lives.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
rjpieces
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:44 am

I seem to recall reading that the bombs were dropped just days before the Soviets promised to invade.......This could have had something to do with it.

However, it doesn't change the fact that millions of Americans and Japanese would have died if the US had invaded.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
b757300
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:50 am

Here is a sobering little fact for anyone who thinks invasion was the better choice.

In 1945 the United States placed a large order for Purple Hearts in preparation for the invasion of Japan. The United States did not need to order Purple Hearts again until 2002.

Everyone who's parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents, fought in World War II had better be very glad we dropped the atomic bombs. Had we not, there is a good chance you would not be here today.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
yhmfan
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:52 am

If the method hadn't been used, a full invasion of Japan would've had to occur. That would cost millions of lives on both the Japanese and American side, everybody knows that. The method that was used ended up killing thousands and thousands, but hadn't it been used, we would be looking at millions and millions today.

The fact that the United States had the bomb, without a doubt, ended the war and saved lives.

The unanswered question, however, is "Could the United States not have chosen a less sever means of sending the message?"

The bomb could have been dropped on a military target just to demonstrate its power and a message sent to the Japanese that cities would be next. It would still have achieved the desire effect without the mass civilian casualty.

I think the intention was to demonstrate to the Japanese the willingness of the United States to cause mass civilian casualties. In other words, the message was not only "We have the Bomb" but "We have the Bomb and we are willing to eradicate civilians"


If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
jcs17
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:52 am

Not only did dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki basically end the war, sparing millions of lives, but the situation would've become a lot dicier had the US had to invade Japan. The US wouldn't have been the only people invading Japan, the Soviets would've as well--and grabbed as much land as they could get their hands on, thus perhaps beginning another war, this time between the US and the Soviets.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:54 am

Yeah, Japan was a real victim in World Wa- Oh, wait, they fuckin started the damn war!

Fools.

Phil Derner Jr.
 
pelican
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:00 am

I wouldn't say he is a hero. He saved lives. The lives of American soldiers. The costs were hundred of thousands lives of Japanese civilians. I won't judge whether it (the mission) was right or wrong. Of course every government want to avoid own casualties. And the USA weren't the aggressor. The question is: were the costs to high? It all depends how you answer to this question.
And to all hobby historians out there: How do you know that the nuclear bombing saved Japanese lives? Okay the lives of Japanese soldiers but what about children, old people, disabled people...
Maybe this question can help to answer the previous question how many Germans died between February and May 1945?
Was it nessesary to drop the bomb over a civilian centre?

pelican

[Edited 2004-07-18 21:05:14]
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:01 am

NWA742:

"I agree with Alpha 1, B757300, and JCS17 -- this guy was ordered to do this mission, and he did it."

Fantastic! That makes "Chemical Ali", the Iraqi general held responsible for the gassing of the Kurds, another Hero, as he was just following orders, right?

Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
b757300
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:01 am

The bomb could have been dropped on a military target just to demonstrate its power and a message sent to the Japanese that cities would be next. It would still have achieved the desire effect without the mass civilian casualty

Hiroshima was a military target. It was the headquarters for the Japanese army that was assigned the defense of the Southern 1/2 of the Home Islands as well as a center of war production. We had four guidelines in place to decide what the targets would be.

– “The targets chosen should be places the bombing of which would most adversely affect the will of the Japanese people to continue the war.”

– “Targets should be military in nature, consisting either of important headquarters, troop concentrations, or centers of production of military equipment and supplies.”

– “To enable us to assess accurately the effects of the bomb, the targets should not have been previously damaged by air raids.”

– “The first target should be of such size that the damage would be confined within it so that more definitely determine the power of the bomb.” (From Now It Can Be Told By General Leslie Groves, 1962 268-270)
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
NWA742
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:16 am

Fantastic! That makes "Chemical Ali", the Iraqi general held responsible for the gassing of the Kurds, another Hero, as he was just following orders, right?

We weren't portraying Mr. Sweeney as a hero simply because he followed orders, he's a hero because he ended the war with his mission, and saved millions of lives that would've been lost had the war not ended because of those bombings.

Nice try Schoenorama.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
pelican
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:16 am

Hiroshimawas a military target.
Who was talking about Hiroshima?

I prefer to say it was also a military target, because cities are more than Army headquarters or a factory of arms. They are homestead to thousands of civilians, too. There is a difference between dropping a nuke and dropping conventional bombs.

pelican

[Edited 2004-07-18 21:17:07]
 
rjpieces
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:25 am

One of the reasons Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen was because Tokyo was firebombed to a more devastating effect AFAIR.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
yhmfan
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:36 am

Yeah, Japan was a real victim in World Wa- Oh, wait, they ****in started the damn war!

Please do not consider the following as defending Japan. It is simply an attempt to show that history is not always black and white:

Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was indeed the first military action between the two countries and was instigated by Japan. However, the actions of the United States prior to the attack included the following:

1. Increased military and financial aid to China who was at war with Japan
2. Increased military presence in the Pacific
3. Finally, and probably the final trigger, the cutting off of oil and other raw materials to Japan.

Japan is very poor in natural resources and the above actions put Japan's very survival at risk.

To draw a parallel, if (and this is definitely in the hypothetical) OPEC countries place an embargo on the United States, do you think that the military option would not be used?

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
Sinlock
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:55 am

To draw a parallel, if (and this is definitely in the hypothetical) OPEC countries place an embargo on the United States, do you think that the military option would not be used?

I know that at some point someone was going to open that can of worms........
 
yhmfan
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:58 am

I know that at some point someone was going to open that can of worms........

Glad to oblige!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
Klaus
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Sinlock

Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:02 am

Ah, there you are, Sinlock. You´re still an answer short on your very own recent thread Glad To Not Be French.

We´re waiting!
 
iakobos
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:35 am

In the second half of 1945, with the war in the European theatre of operations pretty well done, could the US of A (the government and the people and its resources) have contemplated to pursue a (conventional) war against Japan which could have lasted anything between 1 and even more than 2 years ?

The chronology indicates also that the Red Army (arguably the strongest army on earth at that time) was preparing its own attack on Japan.
What could have happened had the Soviet Army landed in Japan ?

IMO these are the two main reasons why the decision was made to erase Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the map, after Tokyo was already wiped out by conventional means.
With a nearly complete supremacy in the sky, and a Japanese industry totally incapable of producing anything for its armed forces, the US airforces could have "simply" worked on a routine till there was nothing left in the sky and little on the ground.
The Japanese (at least in '45) were no ordinary people. They would have followed the holy Emperor whatever he told them.
So, the bombing campaign could have taken a lot of time, and assuming that it would have brought the end of the war was a very risky bet.
What is sure is that the devastation would have been tremendous and that the after war reconstruction period could have lasted several decades and cost zillions.

The fact that it has saved a lot of US lives is I think undeniable, but it seems as a consequence of the decision, not a major factor leading to it.
 
jamesag96
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:01 am

A few points and then I am out:
1.The Atomic Bombs were used to stop the war and make a statement. People forget the fervor in which the Japanese served and died for their Emperor God.
2.More Japanese died in fire bombing.
3.Japan went to war with the Chinese in the 30's and earned a horrendous reputation for their methods of war. Being an Island nation with limited resources the Americans correctly assumed that Japanese eyes would eventually turn East. They cut off Japan from Oil and other raw materials to "diplomatically" address their actions in China and the rest of Asia.

After the Rape of Nanking, Guadalacanal, Corregidor, and Bataan the Allies wanted to avoid invasion at all costs.

Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:49 am

NWA742:

"We weren't portraying Mr. Sweeney as a hero simply because he followed orders, he's a hero because he ended the war with his mission, and saved millions of lives that would've been lost had the war not ended because of those bombings."

But Mr Sweeney didn't know that at the time he pushed the button, now did he. He was 'simply following orders' just as the guy that filled up his deposits with fuel before he took off.

And, with all respect, don't you believe that your statement "he saved milions of lives" is nothing more than an assumption from a US perspective? What do the Japanese think about it? Do you think they agree with that? Don't you think they might be offended by calling him a hero?

I'm afraid there's no heroes here. This guy did what he was ordered to do by his seniors. Nothing else.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
ly7e7
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:05 am

With all due respect to the US role in WWII , and even taking into account both military and political reasons that stood behind Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings , being first and only (I hope ) nation that used atomic weapons in combat is not something to take a pride in. Hiroshima and Nagasaki will go down as one of the darkest chapters of human history.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:29 am

LY7E7

It is nice to see that we can agree on something!  Wink/being sarcastic

Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
zak
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:48 am

it is shocking how firm people still believe in ww2 era propaganda, i can only agree withLY7E7 that this was one of the darkest chapters of human history, especially in the pacific.
lets hope this propaganda legend about "japan was nuked to save lives" does not prevail over the truth, that the u.s. administration wanted to show stalin that they are not to be messed with, a childish display of power in the sick "grand chess" that is still fashionable in u.s. politics
10=2
 
NWA742
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:53 am

But Mr Sweeney didn't know that at the time he pushed the button, now did he. He was 'simply following orders'

Wrong. It was a top secret mission of course, and at first all he knew was to report for duty for a top priority assignment. He and the other pilots were briefed for the mission at least a couple of hours before departure. He was following orders, and he knew what they were and what they meant. Our guys probably told him time and time again that it would end the war, he was probably convinced of that fact so he could to be able to live with himself the very moment after dropping those bombs.

And, with all respect, don't you believe that your statement "he saved milions of lives" is nothing more than an assumption from a US perspective?

Sure, it's an assumption, but not just from a US perspective. Almost everybody would agree that an invasion of Japan by American forces would cost millions of lives on both sides, far more than the amount those bombs caused. So, in a logical sense, dropping those bombs saved countless lives, but at a horrible price as well.



-NWA742

[Edited 2004-07-19 02:15:17]

[Edited 2004-07-19 02:16:47]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:00 am

Yeah, true hero...

Hero is a word thrown around too much. We're calling every soldier serving in Iraq a "hero", when they all volunteered, and are doing the job they were hired to do.

This guy isn't a hero. He isn't a bastard, as some revisionists want us to believe. He was doing his job. And, the revisionists aside, his job, while it had some horrific human results, saved a lot of American lives, and saved even more Japanese lives in the long run.

However I believe that Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were not necessary.

I disagree, and I think history backs up President Truman. He knew what was coming-a massive invasion of Japan. And, in July of '45, he was told about the Manhattan project, and the potential for this weapon. He had no choice but to use it. It ended the war, for goodness sake, so how can anyone argue with it's use? It cost about 200,000 lives-a terrible toll, but would you rather have had another 3 or 4 million added to the total of the dead in the Second World War? Because that's what you probably would have gotten.

The war would have been won anyways with Soviet and American troops invading Japan.

Again, that invasion would have cost at least 10 times the number of lives lost in the atomic attacks, of that I have no doubt. It's a no-brainer.

With regards to the military state of the conflict in Japan and surrounding area in fall 1945 - the war was supposed to end without loosing more then 200.000 lives.

There's ignorance for you. What are you talking about? If the invasion had begun in November, 1945, do you REALLY think less than 200,000 would have died in that invasion? Remember, the invasion, codename Operation Downfall, would have taken place Nov 1, 1945, if the bombs had not been dropped. And, with Japan's history of fighting and dying to the last person, the toll would have been horrendous. Again, you come off as incredibly igonrant to think no lives were saved. A few million were saved at the expense of 200,000.

Invasion was on its way. Red Army even performed some reconnaissance landings on the Japanese land.

Actually, the USSR did declare war on Japan, right after Hiroshima. So what you say is a moot point. They had joined, albeit too late, the fighting.

And you say invasion is on the way-what do YOU think would have been the results of a two-tiered invasion of the Home Islands? A few thousand dead? Get real!

I don't remember exactly, but nothing unnecessary------I don't know why his post was deleted.

It was deleted because what I had responded to was deleted. It's no big deal. Perfectly acceptable to me.

No one argues about that. Japan had to be defeated. The method is questionable.

So was Japan's suprise attack on Pearl. You start a war, you take a combatants chances. All is fair, remember?

To that, I say bullshit.

Why is it bullshit? It's historical fact: without the bomb, the Allies WOULD have launched Operation Downfall Nov 1, 1945. There's no denying it. The forces were already being gathered-many from the same units who had stormed Normandy and defeated the Germans. Say bullshit all you want, but the bomb stopped the invasion, and the deaths of a few millions, American and Japanese.

The point of the bomb was to say "surrender, or we'll eradicate you".

Gee, and that's what happened, isn't it? Duh. You contratict yourself into showing the use of The Bomb in this case-it ended the war, which was what Truman had said he would do.

The unanswered question, however, is "Could the United States not have chosen a less sever means of sending the message?"

We had done everything else-carpet bombing, incindeary bombing of civilian centers. Still Japan fought on. What were we to do? We had tried every known method up to the point.

Put yourself in Harry's place for a minute: you know this invasion is coming; you know it will make the war last another year or two; you know it will cost a few million lives-on both sides. Then, in July of '45, you're told of this new weapons, so powerful, that your military leaders are convinced that Japan will surrender if it's used. YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. Simply, as C-in-C, to save the lives of those you'll be sending to die in Japan, you owe it to them to make the attempt-and be damned revisionists 60 years later...

Hiroshima and Nagasaki will go down as one of the darkest chapters of human history.

It certainly was no picnic, and nothing anyone should be proud of, for what had to happen. But it would have been darker, had Americans found out their president had the means to stop the war, didn't use it, and a million GI's had died, and a few million Japanese to boot. That would have made it much darker. Your revisionism is rejected.
 
b757300
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:08 am

"Having found the bomb we have used it. We used it against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, against those who have abandoned all pretext of obeying international laws of warfare. We have used it in order to shorten the agony of war, in order to save the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans." -President Harry S. Truman; August 10, 1945

"To avert a vast, indefinite butchery, by a few explosions seemed, after all our perils and toils, a miracle of deliverance." -Winston Churchill
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
martinairyyz
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:34 am

US did not save a single life by dropping that bomb.

True, they did the exact opposite......... KILLED tens of thousands of INNOCENT people...
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Pilot Whose Bomber Dropped A-bomb On Nagasaki Dies

Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:41 am

True, they did the exact opposite......... KILLED tens of thousands of INNOCENT people...

War is hell. Another naive soul to deal with.

About 200.000 died in the two attacks. Good bet that 10 times that many die if they're not dropped, and the war continued for 18 months or so, and the invason of Japan goes forward.

Unfortunately, minds like yours don't seem to think things through to where things were headed. You use 21st Century condemnation, to put down something that ended a war, and saved lives.

Such revisionism makes me want to hurl sometimes.

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