777236ER
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US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:58 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3904151.stm

11 killed, but it's ok because some of them were terrorist. Or related to terrorists. Or the same skin colour at least.
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:02 am

Amazing how hospital 'sources; say women and children died but then theres no names, no quotes just 'sources'.

The Iraqi Goverment authorised the raid.

11 People had died, but if the terrorists had lived how more would have died?

This is a war, this is the by-product of war. No-one should be surprised.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
rjpieces
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:03 am

And people wonder why the US and Israel are steadfast allies. This is how you deal with terrorists.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
NWA742
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:05 am

11 killed, but it's ok because some of them were terrorist. Or related to terrorists.

Yeah, I'm not surprised that you have a problem with terrorists being killed. Those who harbor and support them deserve the same consequences as they do.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
777236ER
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:05 am

This is a war, this is the by-product of war. No-one should be surprised.

I think a lot of people are surprised - the war was meant to be won 10 months ago.

This is how you deal with terrorists.

And women and children, apparently.
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777236ER
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:06 am

Yeah, I'm not surprised that you have a problem with terrorists being killed. Those who harbor and support them deserve the same consequences as they do.

But the US funded Al Qaeda and Osama bin Ladin, not to mention Saddam.
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Klaus
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Rjpieces

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:09 am

Rjpieces: And people wonder why the US and Israel are steadfast allies. This is how you deal with terrorists.

...if you want never-ending carnage, sure.  Insane

Being incapable to recognize that the decisive factors in the fight against terrorism are not military has always been a recipe for disaster. The blatant lack of success of this strategy is telling. To those with eyes to see, at last.
 
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:10 am

And when are you going to change the record? The USA helped the afghan resistance, it helped the Russians beat the Germans and it supported Saddam against Iran.

You have to take each situation on its own otherwise Britain and the USA wouldnt have alinged with Russia to beat Germany because of the consquences.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
NWA742
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:10 am

And women and children, apparently.

Yeah, the US is really evil with women and children, considering we've lost many of our own guys in attempts to help them.

But those terrorists, they treat women and children even better. Heck, they even use them as shields sometimes in battle.

Such great people that were bombed by the evil Americans, right 777236ER?



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
NWA742
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:14 am

Being incapable to recognize that the decisive factors in the fight against terrorism are not military

Explain to us what's better then, Klaus. You really think negotiating or changing foreign policies is enough to keep those assholes from hating us?

The only way to stop them from hating us and attempting to kill us is------ to kill them before they kill us. 9/11 was the wake-up call for America to realize this fact.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:15 am


"But the US funded Al Qaeda and Osama bin Ladin, not to mention Saddam. "

Yes, your point? Those horrendous mistakes do not nullify the need to fight terrorism now.

"I think a lot of people are surprised - the war was meant to be won 10 months ago. "

And everyone knows that it's not... yay for you, you're brilliant, you pointed out the obvious that Bushy would rather not hear... but the terrorism in Iraq must be combatted in order to give the country a shot at functional democracy, whether someone declared 'victory' or not.
 
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:15 am

"the war was meant to be won 10 months ago."

I never said it was. My point is that this isnt a war crime because on my view all wars are crime. They can be legitmate, illegitimate, they can kill 100 people or 100 000 people. They can resuce people from dictators, they can attack terrorists or they can grab land but at the end of the day it is war and these situations arent surprising.

You will never a clean safe war where no one gets hurt and this isnt just my view on iraq, if tomorrow there is a terrorist outrage while I would condemm it it would be as a result of this war that America and its allies are in.

This war on terror with its many different faces will take years and anyone thinking that every civilian in the world will never die from it is frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Gman94
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:17 am

Imagine the outcry from America if we'd have bombed catholic areas of Northern Ireland killing innocent women and children, but it's ok we probably bagged a few IRA members along with them.
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:19 am

NWA742, you are absolutely, positively correct  Big thumbs up
 
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:21 am

Gman, you raise an interesting point before 9/11 the USA didnt realise the problems we in the UK faced. Members of the Thacter goverment and members of the military did want to bomb selected targets.

Thankfully we got co-operation from Eire so we never had to do this.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
 
Klaus
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NWA742

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:33 am

NWA742: Explain to us what's better then, Klaus. You really think negotiating or changing foreign policies is enough to keep those assholes from hating us?

The only way to stop them from hating us and attempting to kill us is------ to kill them before they kill us. 9/11 was the wake-up call for America to realize this fact.


You´re demanding a simplistic answer to a complex problem. And that simple answer does not exist. "They hate us... so kill more of them, maybe that will help!" is obviously not the answer.

Successful strategies have been discussed many times before. And they´ve been applied with success as well.

Some points:

Hardcore terrorist cells are usually unreachable. Their undercover operations need to be fought with the full force of combined police, intelligence agencies and rarely also military means.

The primary long-term part of the fight is based on denying the terrorist cells the means to support and replenish themselves. External pressure apparently helps very little with that, quite the contrary: It invigorates the civilian support base of the active members. As long as there is a functioning support infrastructure, the active cells can (and probably will) live forever, replenishing themselves whenever a military strike has taken out some of their members with fresh recruits.

The basis of every terrorist movement is its perceived legitimacy in its civilian support base. The only successful way to win the fight is to undermine the terrorist´s credibility among their active and potential supporters. This, of course, requires an open and credible approach to those people. Marching into their territory and loudly telling them what they have to think or believe is not terribly constructive.

"Winning the hearts and minds" is seen as an optional flourish at the side of the greater struggle by many (especially americans, apparently). But as much as it doesn´t involve heavy artillery and flashy news coverage, it is the only way the fight can actually be won in the longer run. There are no shortcuts and no cheap substitutes.

Yes, it involves actually listening to the people you´re dealing with; Not just parading your presumed superiority before them. But there´s just no other way.
 
AA777
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:49 am

And people wonder why the US and Israel are steadfast allies. This is how you deal with terrorists.

Oh thats real humane man... killing innocent civilians.... sounds alot like something else you and I have debated before...***IDF***

-AA777
 
jutes85
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:51 am

Oh thats real humane man... killing innocent civilians.... sounds alot like something else you and I have debated before...

Innocent civilians always die, that's what happens in a densely populated area. If you can save a few hundred lives, you must sacrifice a few.

BTW, show me where women and children died. I like how whenever Israel or the US drops a bomb to kill terrorists, women AND/OR children ALWAYS happen to die.
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solarix
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:11 am

Oh thats real humane man... killing innocent civilians.... sounds alot like something else you and I have debated before...***IDF***

How come I don't see you condemning the killing of civilians when insurgents slaughter innocent Iraqis with car bombs? Yet when the Americans bomb a house full of these terrorists, we have people like you crying a river about it. Strange....
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L.1011
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:34 am

Why don't people realize that sometimes you have to choose between two evils...and you pick the lesser one? Those terrorists would have killed many more women and children than that raid did. We supported Saddam against Iran because Iran was a greater threat. We supported the Mujahadeen against the Soviets because a superpower with thousands of nukes is a much bigger threat than the Mujahadeen was at that point. We fought with the Soviets against Hitler because Hitler was a far greater threat to our security than the Soviets were. It's logic.
 
rjpieces
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:08 pm

Speaking of this, Kerry has taken a much more Pro-Israel line in recent weeks.....Interesting development as many Jews have been abandoning the Democrats in favor of Bush.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/07/02/kerry_takes_a_stronger_pro_israel_line/
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LY744
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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:08 am

Could be worse, they could have been turning into "Palestine".


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RE: US Turning Into Israel

Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:29 am

But the US funded Al Qaeda and Osama bin Ladin, not to mention Saddam.

The U.S. never funded al Qaeda, nor Osama bin Laden.

The U.S. funded the anti-Soviet Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, whom Osama bin Laden eventually joined. Big difference.

And yes, we funded Saddam, as he was "the lesser of two evils" in the Iran/Iraq war - but so did the Soviets and the French, and to a much larger extent than the U.S. did.
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