MxCtrlr
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Is This Really A Race Problem?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:52 pm

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-me-getty20jul20.story

Let's get serious folks. There are many forms of racial problems in society today but THIS???? This is garbage! Grow the f**k up and deal with the fact that your hair may be rough!

"We listened to Getty Museum officials say 'we apologize, we apologize,' " said Maryalice Jones, western regional director of the Congress of Racial Equality. "How do you expect me to accept your apology when you haven't done anything to rectify the situation?"

To fire someone over this incident, like this Maryalice Jones is implying needs to be done, is WAY overboard!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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L-188
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:06 pm

Sounds like another Shapton/Jackson extortion case about to start.

But if I where one of the two, I can see where I might be offended.....but still in some ways, it sounds pretty weak.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:26 pm

Maybe I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about but pretty weak seems to sum it all up. Someone was trying to get 4th graders involved in a museum tour. To make it more interesting, that person made it somewhat "interactive" with an illustration of their point that probably made sense to a lot of the class in attendance. To try and twist that into a racial context is perverted and a slap to the problems that really ARE racial problems in society!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
L-188
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:29 pm

The article said she did it again with another student.....

What race?

Anything but African American and the complaint goes away......



But then again this is California we are talking about....  Nuts
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
air2gxs
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:42 pm

My big concern would be that someone touched my child. This was not a teacher, that is known to the students and parents, but a docent. I believe I would have a problem with that. A racial issue, no, but a concern.
 
L-188
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:46 pm

Well, this was an employee of the museum giving a presentation Air2gxs, not a complete stranger on the side of the road.

I think I can cut a bit of slack in that regard.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Greg
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:14 am

The issue is not that he called their hair 'rough'.
The issue is she touched a minor. Albeit, I doubt it would be considered innapropriately in a sexual way.
I'd be pissed to....but it's not going to court...the employee will be very publicly (letter released to the press) reprimanded.

End of story.
 
777236ER
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:55 am

Probably just another poor black person waiting for an easy way to get some money and the opportunity rang.

Better a black person getting money than a black person serving white people, no?

**I don't mean to be rude, but I'm just sick and tired of a lot of black people claiming EVERYTHING is discrimination**

Given your history of slavery, I say you have nothing to moan about.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
dvk
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:10 am

777236ER,

You missed the point of Bronco's statement, even if he made it in a less than politically correct manner. Your condescending response is far more offensive than his post. There IS a problem in the US with the racism label being used far too freely and frequently for minor incidents or to deflect attention from the true problem. Perhaps your pristine nation with no skeletons in its closet entitles you to berate us, but I don't think so.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
Ralgha
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:41 am

Oh no, somebody TOUCHED me! Heaven forbid! I'm doing to die!

No way, hair is rough? When did that happen?

Every day I'm amazed at the stupidity level of the general public. GROW UP PEOPLE.
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yyz717
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:43 am

While I dislike political correctness as much as anyone, this conduct was out of line.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Soku39
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:49 am

I also think that conduct was out of line, a little common sense may have helped though as I don't think she meant any harm.
The Ohio Player
 
5NEOO
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:51 am

Probably just another poor black person waiting for an easy way to get some money and the opportunity rang.

We all know a white person wouldn't throw a fit or something like this.

Here's a logical solution to the problem that if followed step-by-step will produce huge dividends:

1. Call up your Aryan Brothers.
2. Each of you donate $100 to aid in the charter of the largest cargo vessel available.
3. With the remaining funds available, buy as much Chicken and Watermelons you can lay your hands on.
4. Place an Ad in Ebony, Vibe, Source or any publication that caters to the black community stating; "Free Chicken and Atlantic Cruise to the first 20 million BLACK respondents to this Ad!"
5. Once they've all congregated on the ship, cut the line and pray the ship sails FAR AWAY from the U.S.

I hope my suggestion was helpful.
Admit it, you could care less about the continent Africa!
 
prosa
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:05 am

I would consider the guide's actions and comments somewhat inappropriate, though not an outrage or anything. A mild reprimand to the guide and an apology to the children should be enough.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Guest

RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:10 am

77236ER-

"Given your history of slavery, I say you have nothing to moan about."

What the f*ck. So, just because someone is white they have a history of slavery?

Full of sh*t
 
SESGDL
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:31 am

FlyingBronco05,

"Probably just another poor black person waiting for an easy way to get some money and the opportunity rang.

We all know a white person wouldn't throw a fit or something like this.

**I don't mean to be rude, but I'm just sick and tired of a lot of black people claiming EVERYTHING is discrimination**"

Comments like that from people like you are the reason that the race card is used so prevalently. It's obvious you're a racist. What if a black person went up to a white person talking about skin cancer, and then rubbed the skin of a white person and said, "this is skin more likely to get cancer?" or something ridiculous like that. It is a race issue, why the hell was she touching the kids in the first place? That's like touching someone's nose and saying "ugly" or "big." It's offensive! I bet she wouldn't have touched a white person's hair. White people always seem to touch black people's hair, and to me someone touching my hair is extremely rude. Ever notice that people touch dog's heads, and pet animals? THAT'S why it's a race issue, no one ever would've touched a white person or any other person's hair. I think so many of you white people are offended because of the fact that racism is going on and being NOTICED. If you were black, you'd agree with it being a race issue.

Jeremy

 
mdsh00
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:33 am

Given your history of slavery, I say you have nothing to moan about.

Well then you should probably think about your own history of slavery and what your ancestors did in India.


Although it may not be appropriate for her to touch the children like that, I don't think she meant any harm. Is it really that racist? Yes, blacks have short curly hair, whites tend to have more skin cancer, etc. etc. Our differences are there, and just because someone mentions it doesn't make them a racist, unless it's done in a condescending way.

It seems to me that it's another opportunity for people like like Jesse Jackson, who keep professing equality, yet constantly try and set people apart. There was an incident with Toyota a few years back when they happened to have a billboard with a big picture of a guy grinning, with a Camry in the reflection of his gold tooth. Well it turned out that the guy was black, and Jesse Jackson was alll over it.

There are times when racism exists and there are time when things are blown out of proportion. Lately I feel that the latter has been happening more.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
prosa
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:40 am

I would consider the guide's actions and comments somewhat inappropriate, though not an outrage or anything. A mild reprimand to the guide and an apology to the children should be enough.

Just to clarify what I said, I tend to doubt that the guide meant to be offensive, she probably was just clueless as to the effect her actions would have. She may have thought what she did was cute.


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Greg
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:20 am

I have no doubt the intentions were totally harmless and the interest of educating the children.
However, I would likely prefer that no one touch my child in any fashion outside of my supervision---medical emergency withstanding....

It's not like she has a claim at any rate. There is no racial implication.
It you read the article, she only wants 'something' done so it won't happen again.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:21 am

Funny that 777236ER brings up the history of slavery in the US.

Many slaves were brought here by British slave traders. The British only started to condemn slavery about the time the slave trade ceased being profitable. The reason it ceased being profitable was, they had imported so many the colonies were making all the slaves they needed through reproduction.

Source: About any college level US history book

Yeah what the guide did was out of line, but geez people get a life. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton will probably do their best to put the museum out of business over this by suing, or threatening to sue for hundreds of millions of dollars. If some black person used me as an example of pasty white I wouldn't be offended.

Without being there I would bet the tour guide did not mean to be racist.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
dvk
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:45 am

SESGDL,

You made some stereotypical comments that are, in themselves, racist. I do not make a habit of touching black people's hair, even though I am with black people every day. Most white people do not go around touching black people's hair all the time, if ever. The docent's action was inappropriate, but it doesn't need to be blown out of proportion. In the same way you angrily branded Bronco a racist for his remarks, I could say the same about you based on your remarks. Think about it.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
david b.
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:09 am

Someone is going to get banned for breaking the rules.
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
david b.
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:17 am

Dvk explain why you agree that a white boy would not make a "fit" and that only only black people would. Genetic superiority Dvk?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
dvk
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:08 am

David b.

Please re-read my posts! Your remark has no relation to anything I've said. It is racist for a black person to say that "White people always seem to touch black people's hair". I did not imply anything else, and I certainly did not say anything about racial proclivities toward making a "fit".
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
BN747
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:14 am

MxCtrlr, L-188 and all the older guys.... you guys obviuosly don't know,have or associate with minorities of any persuassion in any meaningful way.. it comes across very clearly in the comments you make. You both may 'know' a black or chinese guy who you may say 'hi' to everyday but that's about the extent of it... if that. Which means you really don't KNOW any. MxCtrlr, if the Mx indicates you are 'mexican' ... then a greater shame on you. As many of you know, Southern Californian has a huge hispanic population dominated by those of mexican descent. But there is a clear divide in those very ranks, the mexicans who run as far and as fast as they can from being anything associated with being mexican AND those who recognize they are.. and could careless what anyone thinks. Both indicate their awarness of a 'race problem'. The one distancing himself from his ethnic background hastily trying to align himself with what he sees as the favored identity... white. The other is quite cognizant of his place in a society dripping with racial disparity and could give a rats ass what anyone thinks of him/her.

The problem the older guys here miss out on is that these are kids... as mean little bastards as kids can be .. they are still very sensitive and keenly aware of the differences they have among themselves... esp. the minority kids. And for this docent (who clearly was either, not thinking or was just outright ignorant) did something that was completely out of line. The kid that was selected with the 'rough' hair now carrys an emotional scar probably to be conscience of it for very very long time. If this kid was at a point where he was beginning to feel race is of little consequence in 'his' America... this docent just destroyed that and set him backwards in thinking that world is becoming a better place than what his parents endured. One idiot with a single thoughtless action can just that. He was singled out.. made an example of and not in a positive way. It may seem insignificant to you but to this kid.. this was huge (esp. if his classmate/girl crush was present to witness it).

To the morons who love tossing out the Sharpton/Jesse Jackson flash cards every time race comes up... I ask, without Jesse Jackson/Sharpton.. just where do you people think the race situation in America would be without them? You must foolishly think the gains that they have made would have just magically appeared out of altruism of the dominate race. If you took a little more time than what it takes to shoot off your mouth, and examined the price of civil rights in this country, you'd realize that if not for a fight.. very few rights would have been extended. If there were no Jackson/Sharpton I gaurantee you that daily street bombings and riots of the 1960s & 70s would be with you right now and I just wonder.. what would you have to say other than 'Someone ought to do something about this...' To ask 'why are they always so angry or always charging racism' if you must ask the question.. the answer is.. you know squat about racism in America/worldwide nor anything of it's legacy and that you are the least qualified person to be discussing as much. You come across 'loud and clear' just like the uninformed passenger who points to a plane on the tarmac and says ' the plane is still on the runway'.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
mdsh00
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:05 am

BN747

You make some very valid points. As a young person of minority, I understand what it is like when others make light of your culture and beliefs. I could see what persons like that child would go through. As for your reference to Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, the reason that I don't like them is that I feel they make the problem worse more times than they make it better. Racism does exist in this society, and it is good that someone is there to look out for that. But I think it is counterproductive to the equality movement when Jackson/Sharpton pick a racial issue with everything they can. The problem then ends up that you have your society always feeling that they will be different. Remember that episode on "Airline" when that African-American lady wanted to bring her family of 15 to the gate to pick up her daughter? The white ticket agent refused on safety issues and that woman went ballistic and claimed it was "racial." I know it is one little example, but some people get this kind of mentality when people like Jackson/Sharpton keep promoting it that way. I think they need to pick their battles more wisely.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
BN747
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:36 am

Mdsh00, I understand exactly what you mean and tragically this is the imbalance inherent in anything of human affairs. You have people minority and not, who scam the govt and score all kinds of financial aid and assistance... managing to obtain more than they need. While perhaps a door or two away is a family who could really use it.. but has been told 'No that's the limit'... so they struggle on anyway. The 1st scam artist is someone who knows the way around the bureacratic red tape and they can probably get away with it for a millinenia. That process is repeated in every area there is something to be gained and on every level. Even as you know...in educational circles. As for the Airline episode, I've seen that myself, where there is no way the person accused is racist but is slammed as such by some idiot sees it as their only way of obtaining what they 'feel they need'. We on the outside looking in.. are left to make split decision judgement calls on who's right and who's wrong.. and usually we are not privy to the details to make a fair or balanced call. But people as uninformed as they are.


As for Jackson/Sharpton, what average Joe Lunch box doesn't undertsand is that business use extortionate tactics daily in the course of normal business operations. Airlines are all that happen when they have to compensate people for a flight screw up.. so what they'll do is extend benefits to all... but some will get more or a better deal than others because they know rules better than most. If you know what to ask for... how can you even ask? Charlie Hustle gets a flight upgrade and a hotel room (maybe even a suite) and the couple from Kansas get an meal voucher and standby on the next flight.
Enormous wrong-doings by corporations is legendary, the perspective from the outside is completely different from that of an insider. When Jackson's boycott tactics is the same that churches use against media companies when they object to scheduled programming. Right now you have National Guardsmen who have fulfullied their obligations but they cannot return to their families and normal jobs because the military has issued a stop order on any one getting out or being able to return from Iraq. Right now, a lot of those people feel very wronged and right about now they are wishing a Sharpton or Jackson would give them a voice to be heard. No one else would do it because they are afraid of being seen as 'unpatriotic'. I can go on and on about wrongdoings across the board.. but those involving race are the ones easiest to level a charge and they are the easiest to invoke (even without intent) such as the docent who selected this kid to prove a point. As someone pointed out, how would this woman feel if someone grabbed her kid and said 'look at this kids nose.. it's a whopper compared to this kid'

The waters in which businesses from Donut Shops to Nike swim are crawling with barracudas, those who think businesses are honest and square-dealing are in for a rude awaking or are just blowing smoke out of their keester! Few businesses go out of their way to outright discriminate against a select group of people.. but there are some that have managers/supervisors who will look around and see no one in place to stop them and they will do as they please.. which could cost the company in the end.. and rightfully so if someone has been marginalized or disenfranchised without cause. It is proven that doing the right thing benefits more vs doing wrong which means someone always has to pay for the error.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
sccutler
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:47 am

"She started talking about smooth and rough textures and she grabbed the head of one of my black boy students and rubbed his head and said 'This is rough,' " Shakir said. "The kids were in shock. It was like she had just ripped out their spirits."

If this person claims to be qualified to "educate" children, it is a sad thing, indeed. When one treats children as if they have no resiliency, as if they will be permanently scarred by such as the event described, the children will have no sense of perspective.

There is no comment, no action, which cannot in some way and by some person be interpreted in a negative way.

I agree with Greg's comments above- these days, it is certainly not accepted to have strangers touching children; but if race was not relevant to the quoted story, why was it even mentioned?

In any event, someone who is likely well-meaning and considerate (few people work as docents at museums for the big paycheck...) has now been tarred with the brush of hate.

Pathetic.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
BN747
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:44 pm

I agree with Greg's comments above- these days, it is certainly not accepted to have strangers touching children; but if race was not relevant to the quoted story, why was it even mentioned?

Race clearly was relevent, how could it not be? You can't grab a white kid and say 'see his hair is rough'. Not only that, we have no way of knowing what was running through the docents' mind. Was it outright racism with intent? Was it unconsciouslyly racist? She went straight for this black kid.. not for a jewish kid with kinky hair (if there was one) we really can't be sure what here motivations were -- but to distinguish a 'difference' was one of them. On the receiving end, the child was unnecessarily showcased in a non-positive way- touched or not! At least on the surface, race played a role whether it was intended or not, because there were two parties involved. If the docent's intent was not racist.. the kid's feeling was it most certainly was depending on the depth of race-cognizance taught to him by his parents. Even if it was a jewish kid with kinky hair.. the psychological damaged to kid is there regardless.

As for the docent and her low paying job... no one forced her to work there and that has nothing to do with her academic accomplishments. The bottomline is she's older than the child... she should have known better. She certainly does now. We all make some pretty stupid gaffes in our time.. but some are going to get the magnifying glass more than others... warranted or not.



BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
SESGDL
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:24 pm

BN747,

Your points are excellent and more people on this forum need to read some of your comments. I agree 110% with everything you've said. The issue WAS racist, and anyone who doesn't see it as so is oblivious.

Jeremy
 
sccutler
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:41 am

Race clearly was relevent, how could it not be? You can't grab a white kid and say 'see his hair is rough'.

Of course one could... if he had rough hair.

Sort of amusing, really, getting racial commentary from a Los Angeleno- while the LA-centric media purport to tell us "flyovers" how to think, they haven't exactly got their own issues figured out yet, either.

Not only that, we have no way of knowing what was running through the docents' mind. Was it outright racism with intent?

Now that is the question, isn't it? And you don't know the answer, nor do I. It is the height of hypocrisy to leap, immediately, to the worst possible conclusion, as you have done.

Life is not scripted; one cannot always recognize, on the fly, whether something they might say could be construed (perhaps by a teacher with a big, honkin' chip on her shoulder) as offensive. It is easy to judge others, after the fact.

BN747,

Your points are excellent and more people on this forum need to read some of your comments. I agree 110% with everything you've said. The issue WAS racist, and anyone who doesn't see it as so is oblivious.

Jeremy


New idea. Let's ditch the entire judicial process, and any effort on our own parts to exercise critical thought; for these tasks, we have Jeremy (and his spirit guide, BN747); we should all allow this brain trust to tell us what we are thinking (even when we don't know it ourselves), when we should feel shame, what is right and what is wrong. If we find their judgment to be inconsistent with our intent or actions, well, we were "oblivious," maybe need re-education (perhaps there should be big camps where this would be done?).
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
BN747
Posts: 5344
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:21 pm

Sort of amusing, really, getting racial commentary from a Los Angeleno- while the LA-centric media purport to tell us "flyovers" how to think, they haven't exactly got their own issues figured out yet, either.

SCCutler, here's the difference between you and I you assume that because I live here, that my perspective solely from a SoCal perspective. I grew up in various communities across the globe and still to this day travel extensively. My perspective has always been a pretty much from a global standpoint. LA Media, NY media, whatever media... the media is today the same as a Tire Shop-- it's a business! It's integrity was wrapped, packed and sold a long time ago. So to see what's really going on in the world... you have to get off your ass and go see for yourself. I hope whatever guides you in making important decisions are more accurate than your baseless assumptions about me and my perspectives. Apparently, it would behoove you to get out and see more, learn more... or if you have, what you've stated reveals you to be one of those special cases (like Dubya) who can travel the world and return dimmer than you were before you left.

Life is not scripted; one cannot always recognize, on the fly, whether something they might say could be construed (perhaps by a teacher with a big, honkin' chip on her shoulder) as offensive. It is easy to judge others, after the fact

No life isn't scripted, but as complicated as our human biological makeup is...we as human beings are very simplistic in our basic day-to-day behaviors.. no script is needed inpredicting as much. We've been birthing,loving, nurturing, deceiving, lying, stealing, cheating, maiming and killing since we've been on the planet. And taking cue from our leaders make us that much more predictable in thought and behavior. What you clearly fail to understand about racism is that racist acts can be unconscious as well as conscious (with intent). A chip on one's shoulder must not be present to commit a racist act. This isn't important to you because the issue to the likes of you is pertinent as baseball game score. You don't lend it deep thought nor do you care to. Unconscious acts of racism has been committed by nearly everyone one of us (yes, me and you!) on the planet.. not to mention the conscious acts.

New idea. Let's ditch the entire judicial process, and any effort on our own parts to exercise critical thought; for these tasks, we have Jeremy (and his spirit guide, BN747); we should all allow this brain trust to tell us what we are thinking (even when we don't know it ourselves), when we should feel shame, what is right and what is wrong.

Let me see if I have this right..you're some kind of lawyer and Arnold Swartneggerisms is the best you can come up with? What's next.. spitballs and a straw?


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
sccutler
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:05 pm

Dang.

There I was, thinking we had burned through to a new level of discussion- something less superficial- and you jumped right back into the mold.

SCCutler, here's the difference between you and I you assume that because I live here, that my perspective solely from a SoCal perspective.

No such assumption made or proclaimed; merely the observation of perceived irony at the geographic source of the commentary (this, sourced from my time living in SoCal and observing the "atmosphere" there; for the record, to the extent I might find Southern California offensive, which I do not proclaim but merely raise as a hypothetical possibility, I explicitly state that I do not hold BN747 responsible. Feel better?).


So to see what's really going on in the world... you have to get off your ass and go see for yourself.

...can never see enough, but I've been around some...

I hope whatever guides you in making important decisions are more accurate than your baseless assumptions about me and my perspectives.

Fortunately, no such assumptions made (a priori, though some deductive observations resolving themselves nicely, these I will keep to myself).

Apparently, it would behoove you to get out and see more, learn more...

...true for all of us, if one subscribes to the theory that we never stop learning...

...or if you have, what you've stated reveals you to be one of those special cases (like Dubya) who can travel the world and return dimmer than you were before you left.

I guess you'll have to explain that one. Having re-read my prior posts to see what I might have written to trigger that sort of personal attack, I come up empty... or is it "dim" of me to refuse to brand someone I do not know to be a "racist" for what could easily have been an innocently-intended lapse in judgment?

What you clearly fail to understand about racism is that racist acts can be unconscious as well as conscious (with intent). A chip on one's shoulder must not be present to commit a racist act.

Agree with the second part, needless to say, dispute the first (that I fail to understand...) vehemently. More importantly, look back at prior posts on topic, and you'll see that I am recognizing your salient point- of course offensive acts can occur without intent; and a friendly and compassionate exchange can help someone who commits the putatively-offensive act recognize that something which might not have been intended to hurt, did. The subsequent act of screaming bloody murder suggests that the real goal of those complaining is the noise, the publicity, not any increased sensitivity to the issue.


This isn't important to you because the issue to the likes of you is pertinent as baseball game score. You don't lend it deep thought nor do you care to.

Again with the "I know you better than you know yourself" stuff. Stop, already.

Unconscious acts of racism has been committed by nearly everyone one of us (yes, me and you!) on the planet.. not to mention the conscious acts.

Inevitably.

Let me see if I have this right..you're some kind of lawyer and Arnold Swartneggerisms is the best you can come up with? What's next.. spitballs and a straw?

Perhaps less of a lawyer than I thought; I cannot make head nor tails of that one. Not sure where Ahh-nold comes into this.

===

I started by offering the perspective that perhaps the docent against whom the tirade was started intended to hurt no one, and that a bit of compassion might go a long way. I follow with reasoning that no one can know with certainty what the motives of another are. My efforts at using persuasion and logic appear to be failing and, in this circumstance, I leave you to your own devices, as I will not resort to personal attacks or petty stereotyping.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
BN747
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:38 pm

I guess you'll have to explain that one. Having re-read my prior posts to see what I might have written to trigger that sort of personal attack, I come up empty.

Hmmmm... it was you who said...


New idea. Let's ditch the entire judicial process, and any effort on our own parts to exercise critical thought; for these tasks, we have Jeremy (and his spirit guide, BN747); we should all allow this brain trust to tell us what we are thinking (even when we don't know it ourselves), when we should feel shame, what is right and what is wrong.


Must have been one of your prior post you overlooked when you 're-read' them...

Swartzneggerisms relates to the latest grade-school attempt by the guv antagonize the opposition. Your above comments re: SESGDL and myself has to be in Arnold's colorful playbook somewhere.

Even the semi-accourant are aware as it was regurgitated endlessly (and nationally) over the airwaves all last week.

As for the rest... well... I can see it's pointless.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:43 pm

BN747,

MxCtrlr, L-188 and all the older guys.... You guys obviously don't know,have or associate with minorities of any persuasion in any meaningful way.. It comes across very clearly in the comments you make. You both may 'know' a black or Chinese guy who you may say 'hi' to everyday but that's about the extent of it... If that. Which means you really don't KNOW any.

This proves how clueless you truly are and how you have stereotyped me from my comments. First off, since the second part of my signature is "Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.", and this is an airline web site, one might come to the logical assumption that I possibly work in the Air Cargo end of the industry (hence the name "Freight Dogs" and the O.O.T.S.K. - an albeit more obscure reference to the "Order Of The Sleepless Knight", referring to the fact that most air cargo operations run the majority of operations at night). With that in mind, it would take very little deductive reasoning to determine that the Mx stands for Maintenance, as in aircraft maintenance, and the Ctrlr stands for Controller, as in airline Maintenance Controller, but that's not important.

Now to the meat of your post, the fact that I merely "know" a black or Chinese who I may say 'hi'...Which means I really don't KNOW any. WRONG!!!!!! My step-daughter was married to a black man and has three children (who all call me Grandpa) with him. He bagged out when the going got tough (stereotype or actual fact? - Actual fact!) So, I do "know" blacks just a tad better than you give me credit for.

Would it be wrong to explain to a child (ANY child) how something feels and then use something close by and understandable as a reference? That isn't insensitivity or stupidity, its smart teaching by relating the subject matter to something those kids can understand.

I take great pains to teach my kids, and my grandkids (oh yeah, BTW, my other Grandchildren are part Hispanic) that they are no different from anyone else and no more or less important than anyone else. That is truly equality and it will never be achieved by throwing the race card out anytime someone touches a child.

The docent, IMHO, was doing her job trying to illustrate her point (whatever that was as the article never really mentioned it, but it did have to do with texture) by relating it to something she felt the kids would understand and relate to - nothing more!

Before you are so quick to judge someone, be sure who you are judging. Underestimating your opponent is a costly mistake. Fortunately, in this venue, it isn't any big deal, but lessons learned should be lessons remembered for future encounters.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
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MxCtrlr
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:46 pm

Underestimating your opponent is a costly mistake. Fortunately, in this venue, it isn't any big deal, but lessons learned should be lessons remembered for future encounters.

BTW, before the Storm Trooper censors, er, I mean the Moderators on this board get other ideas, the above lines were not meant as a threat of any kind - merely a suggestion to learn about other people and ask questions before blindly labeling them.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
BN747
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:26 pm

MxCtrlr as far as the acronyms are concerned I really don't have the time to sit around and figure out what clever abbreviations people come up with for a char forum. My bad for assuming MX meant maintenance I'm aware that it does but also in the lay world it's equally or even more commonly associated with the term 'mexican'.

Now to the meat of your post, the fact that I merely "know" a black or Chinese who I may say 'hi'...Which means I really don't KNOW any. WRONG!!!!!! My step-daughter was married to a black man and has three children (who all call me Grandpa) with him. He bagged out when the going got tough (stereotype or actual fact? - Actual fact!) So, I do "know" blacks just a tad better than you give me credit for.

One black guy your 'step-daughter' (emphasize step-daughter) and you know blacks now??? LOL some call a doctor I'm splitting my spleen laughing to death after hearing this one... sounds like a fast one MD90 would pull if he were old enough! Even as true as it is.. it's a pathetic qualifier if ever there was one! There goes the meat of my post.

Would it be wrong to explain to a child (ANY child) how something feels and then use something close by and understandable as a reference? That isn't insensitivity or stupidity, its smart teaching by relating the subject matter to something those kids can understand.

YOU MUST BE JOKING! As a parent this is even an alarming statement! Children only like attention when they seek it out voluntarily (either acting out or raising a hand in class).. they recoil from attention thrown upon them when they are not prepared for it. It's NEVER okay to 'use one child as example to explain or make any kind of point when that point highlights a negative reference' as in the case you started this thread with. Period!

I take great pains to teach my kids, and my grandkids (oh yeah, BTW, my other Grandchildren are part Hispanic) that they are no different from anyone else and no more or less important than anyone else. That is truly equality and it will never be achieved by throwing the race card out anytime someone touches a child.

Well hopefully the part-time hispanic grand children you have don't heed your advice. Considering a source who's able to embody a volatile issue such as race into a card game. Race and it's effects in society worldwide is no game and it's certainly no card. A prime example of this Sen. Robert Byrd, D.WVA and the prez staunchest critic. Asked why he joined the KKK.. he replied "I thought it would get me votes". Of all our elected leaders past to present he is the first and only one to admit that he used the backs of blacks to ride the wave of racism into power. Was he the only one? Hell no! Congress is practically built on it. By teaching your part-time minority grandchildren everything is equal totally sets them up to be made and example of by people like the docent at the museum... the difference is.. your grandkids aren't going know racism even if it bites them in the short curlys! By the time the figure it out.. the backlash can be violent and irreversible. Why do think so many teens today lash out the way that they do? Because their families/society has sugar-coated everything they've been told and they find out for themselves they've been bullshitted--royally! But hey.. their your grandkids.

Before you are so quick to judge someone, be sure who you are judging. Underestimating your opponent is a costly mistake. Fortunately, in this venue, it isn't any big deal, but lessons learned should be lessons remembered for future encounters.

Where is there any underestimating???? What cost?

What you need to do is re-read what I wrote about both parties in this situation. As a self-acknowledged father and grandfather nowhere in a single line of your ramblings do you mention or intimate the understanding of any possible damage from the child's perspective. What you HAVE shown concern about ... from every possible angle is from the docents' perspective. Doesn't your parental insight/intuition ring it's bell at some point to emphasize with the perspective of the child involved? Of course it doesn't, because my assessment of your relationships with minorities is dead on point. If you did know a black or chinese guy who you only spoke to 'in passing' .. that would be step-up from what you've publicly disclosed about your propinquity and sensitivities to race. Now that that cat is out of the bag.. it seems it would have been better if you kept that bit of infomation to yourself... it actually makes your argument worse than it already is.


BN747 - M.O.S.T.F.  Smokin cool








"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:22 am

As a self-acknowledged father and grandfather nowhere in a single line of your ramblings do you mention or intimate the understanding of any possible damage from the child's perspective. What you HAVE shown concern about ... from every possible angle is from the docents' perspective.

That's because we don't have the childrens' perspective in this article, just the perspective of what the teacher perceived to be as shock on the childrens' faces. If that in fact proved to be true, then, yes, I agree with you. Since we don't have that perspective (in the form of comments from the children involved, not the teacher's perception of their reaction, then its not a valid point.

Adults perceive childrens' reactions far differently as they put them into an adult context. As child psychologists will tell you, children perceive things vastly differently from adults. Can you agree on that point at least?

Doesn't your parental insight/intuition ring it's bell at some point to emphasize with the perspective of the child involved? Of course it doesn't, because my assessment of your relationships with minorities is dead on point. If you did know a black or chinese guy who you only spoke to 'in passing' .. that would be step-up from what you've publicly disclosed about your propinquity and sensitivities to race. Now that that cat is out of the bag.. it seems it would have been better if you kept that bit of infomation to yourself... it actually makes your argument worse than it already is.

Isn't it funny that when you didn't know the story, I was one of those guys who talked with a black person once in a while, but now, that your argument has been shot out of the water (since I raise these kids and am not a "part-timer" as you would like to believe) "...It would have been better if you kept that bit of information to yourself..." Why? Because it proves you dead wrong, that's why, yet you feebly attempt to reestablish the point.

My "parental insight" does ring a bell when someone abuses or ridicules a child (like the recent case of the coach awarding a "Crybaby Award" to one of his students - THAT is wrong; this hasn't been proved to be such a case).

Well hopefully the part-time hispanic grand children you have don't heed your advice. Considering a source who's able to embody a volatile issue such as race into a card game. Race and it's effects in society worldwide is no game and it's certainly no card.

Are you REALLY THAT anal that you cannot see the word "card" is a metaphor??? Only an idiot, or someone vainly attempting to make a point, would think the term "race card" referred to "playing a card game". That's lame, at best however, since you obviously missed that, allow me to illustrate for you...

Metaphor

n : a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


I sincerely hope that any children you raise/raised do not have the mistaken belief that they are something above everyone else. ALL children are "special" in their own right, but teaching them that they are privileged, because of race, creed or any other reason is dead wrong! Playing the "race card", or, for BN747 who obviously cannot understand a simple metaphor, using race as the issue every time something doesn't go the blacks' way, or the Chinese's way, or the Mexican's way, or the Hispanic's way, is wrong!

By teaching your part-time minority grandchildren everything is equal totally sets them up to be made and example of by people like the docent at the museum... the difference is.. your grandkids aren't going know racism even if it bites them in the short curlys! By the time the figure it out.. the backlash can be violent and irreversible. Why do think so many teens today lash out the way that they do? Because their families/society has sugar-coated everything they've been told and they find out for themselves they've been bullshitted--royally!

By teaching my kids, and FULL-TIME grandkids that they are no more or less special than anyone else, is teaching them the reality of life. You aren't any more special than I am - we just run in different circles. The "royal bullshitting" you speak of comes from when parents tell their kids they are special, so much so that they get out in the real world and expect it to be handed to them. When it isn't, THAT's when the disillusionment comes in. I think you have your statement turned around, possibly from misunderstanding what I was saying????

As for my kids not knowing racism, God I HOPE SO! Wouldn't that be wonderful?! Maybe if we stopped telling our kids they are the most special child in the world, then they wouldn't go out into life thinking the world is waiting for their arrival on the scene!

Obviously, you read whatever you wanted into my posts. You certainly twisted what I've quite plainly explained, so that it fits with your agenda (yet another metaphor for "card").

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
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BN747
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:13 am

By teaching my kids, and FULL-TIME grandkids that they are no more or less special than anyone else, is teaching them the reality of life. You aren't any more special than I am - we just run in different circles. The "royal bullshitting" you speak of comes from when parents tell their kids they are special, so much so that they get out in the real world and expect it to be handed to them

Very true... but it has aboslutely nothing to do with anything! Where does anyone say any child is special??? Did I overlook something? If anything a minority is at a disadvantage... he/she isn't special and no minority parent tells their kid that.

The parent of a parapalegic child tells their kid he is special... where are you getting this crap?

ALL children are "special" in their own right, but teaching them that they are privileged, because of race, creed or any other reason is dead wrong! Playing the "race card", or, for BN747 who obviously cannot understand a simple metaphor, using race as the issue every time something doesn't go the blacks' way, or the Chinese's way, or the Mexican's way, or the Hispanic's way, is wrong!

Jeez you really have screwed up ideas about what's special and what privilege is... let me help you.

A rich kid is a child of privilege...not a minority kid.. does that make sense? WTF are you getting this nonsense that a minority kid is privileged??? Are you sure you really have any children, it certainly doesn't seem like it.

Now the race card is metaphor huh... a metaphor for what exactly??? This I gotta hear. Is there a metaphor for academia? Racism is an institutionalized entity on which a good part of America was built upon. Entrenched deeply in our society and many others. Name another systemic problem of this size that can be reduced to a metaphor... what, the political card? The female card? The wreckless application of the word 'card' being added to any problemic catch phrase does nothing but to cheapen it's meaning and that's exactly what the intent was when this phrase was 1st coined. And everytime it's used in the presence of someone who is aware of this they are taken to task for employing it as such. When the entire livelyhood and existence of a people are at stake... it's no joke and it's no card or any other kind of metaphor.

As far as children are concerned their views are rarely expressed in media reporting and particularly in this case, the child is on the receiving end of an idiotic motive. It is the actions of the adult that's brought into question and it's axiomatic that any child recoils from unwanted or unsolicited attention.. no guess work is needed here. You, MxCtrlr, as a grandparent/parent should know this already... pretty eerie that you would egregiously overlook this.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:39 am

"Given your history of slavery, I say you have nothing to moan about."

YOUR???? Did Britain sit this part of history out?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:23 am

"I ask, without Jesse Jackson/Sharpton.. just where do you people think the race situation in America would be without them? "

A helluva lot better! For starters you'd have real black people in positions of power, rather than Jackson cronies. The black community needs to ditch these two losers. All they know are smear tactics, nepotism, black mail, extortion, and race politics. NEVER have they worked to build unity of all Americans; all they know is how to tear down and scream racism before pausing to realize the full ramifications of any situation.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
BN747
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:34 am

A helluva lot better! For starters you'd have real black people in positions of power, rather than Jackson cronies. The black community needs to ditch these two losers. All they know are smear tactics, nepotism, black mail, extortion, and race politics. NEVER have they worked to build unity of all Americans; all they know is how to tear down and scream racism before pausing to realize the full ramifications of any situation.

This is the perfect example of a fool. A rather foolish post teenager who thinks he knows all the answers to every social issue and especially about racism, race relations and it's horrendous history.

You're all of what ... 20?, you just sprouted your 1st pubic hairs and not only do you know about America's racial history, you already have it figured out how business-to-business relations operate. At the rate you're going you should be a millionaire with 3 months... but somehow I seriously doubt you could achieve that in 10 lifetimes. Why? Here's why, you think your spin on all this is the result of some deep and serious thought on your part when in reality... it's nothing more than half-brained knee-jerk reaction of a person in fear. Why is it so obvious... 100s of 1000s of people your age can be seen on 1950s, 1960s and 1970s newsclips yelling at MLK calling him a trouble-maker, a race baiter and things far worse. Types like you came after Muhammed Ali when he refused to go fight in Vietnam because he knew he was purposely put into a choose or lose situation by the govt because of his vociferous vocal opposition to the state of race in America in the period. Ilk like you vehemently hated the likes of Malcolm X who accused America to it's face of it's racial wrong doings in a very confrontational way. You think no one has seen your act or heard your fear-based uninformed statements before, but we have ... if you were alive back in the 1960s there's no doubt that your present mindset would squarely place you (and all the other Jackson/Sharpton haters) among the kids who spat at minority kids as they were attempted to enter newly intergrated schools. All the symptoms are in the words you speak. Or are the words you speak pure ignorance because you aren't able to place Jackson and Sharpton into the proper contexted with evolutionary confines?

What that means is when King was around they were asking to be treating humanely in a non-forceful way. That's like America today asking terrorist to be humane in consideration of their next strike... but America doesn't do that.. America sets the tone of the battle to be fought. This is where Malcolm X comes in, he was the 1st to instill confidence in blacks that had been denied since the day the 1st brought here in chains. He threatened to bring the United States up on charges of crimes against humanity before the UN.... and rightfully so albeit it nothing more than a 'symbolic' act.. but one that would have had enormous impact had he lived. The bottom line is in demanding rights, jobs and or all that was being denied to a good percentage of the population... money is involved .. not chump change but dealings in financial circles beyond your comprehension. When dealing in those circles "smear tactics, nepotism, black mail, extortion, and race politics" all these vices are fully employed. They are currently in full throttle in the Martha Stewart case, The NYSE/Grasso case, the Kobe Bryant case, the Adelphia case, the Iraq War (in one form or a combination thereof)... if your not getting the point.. they are employed anywhere where serious dollars are at stake. That is the currency of doing business in those circles, if you don't speak the language (which obviously you don't) you end up on the bottom of someone's shoe and not taken seriously. You may not take Jackson/Sharpton Inc seriously... but the Fortune 500 sure as hell does. So for Jackson and Sharpton to employ "smear tactics, nepotism, black mail, extortion, and race politics" they are simply speaking the language 'businesses understand'... That is the evolution conducting the businesses of sheding light on what's right where wrong has been done for far too long. You on the other hand are still living in the land of fairy tales and don't want your rose colored-glasses smeared or removed. Keep them on as long as you provide you comfort...but sooner or later they'll have to come off and hopefully when they do, you won't make as much of a fool of yourself as you did here... talking about things you know nothing about.

Is it fair that someone today suffers from a sudden corporate change that penalizes one race or another? Of course not, but it was also wrong of what was done to people before 'the change' and when change comes.. someone always has to pay for that change. Problem is some have been paying far more and for far longer than others. In that equation, past debts must be satisfied in order to move forward.


BN747

"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MxCtrlr
Topic Author
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:45 am

BN747,

I'm only going to respond to one part of your latest diatribe...

Where does anyone say any child is special??? Did I overlook something? If anything a minority is at a disadvantage... he/she isn't special and no minority parent tells their kid that.

The parent of a parapalegic child tells their kid he is special... where are you getting this crap?


Well, let's see....From Post #37...(by BN747)

By teaching your part-time minority grandchildren everything is equal totally sets them up to be made and example of by people like the docent at the museum... the difference is.. your grandkids aren't going know racism even if it bites them in the short curlys! By the time the figure it out.. the backlash can be violent and irreversible. Why do think so many teens today lash out the way that they do? Because their families/society has sugar-coated everything they've been told and they find out for themselves they've been bullshitted--royally!

So you obviously advocate that we are "good parents" only if we continue to teach our children (and, in my case, grandchildren) that they are different from others, then sobeit. I'm a bad parent and bad grandparent. Oh for shame. I am sooooo bad because BN747 fails to see that to truly achieve racial equality, SOMEONE, starting with parents & grandparents have to teach children that everyone (not just paraplegic kids, like you advocate, BN747) is unique and "special" but none of them are superior.

Jeez you really have screwed up ideas about what's special and what privilege is... let me help you.

A rich kid is a child of privilege...not a minority kid.. does that make sense? WTF are you getting this nonsense that a minority kid is privileged???


A minority child who gets into a college, not because they are qualified, but because of affirmative action (a privilege extended to minorities only) is wrong. A minority person who receives a job promotion, not because they are qualified, but because they are filling a racial quota (a privilege extended to minorities only). Maybe that is not "privileged" in your perception of the word but it is when used in conjunction with "racial equality".

The remainder of your post is just plain, unadulterated drivel and isn't worthy of being qualified by a response.

The bottom line is that racial equality will never be achieved in this country by the Al Sharpton's and Jesse Jackson's of the land. They continue to divide, on racial lines, everything in today's society. The government lends a hand in this by being politically correct (the "hyphenization" of America - African-American, Asian-American, Cuban-American, etc). Dr. Martin Luther King's dream was for all people, regardless of race, color, creed, etc, to be able to work and live together. Things are better than they were 40 years ago (in some respects) but worse off in others.

Again, it starts by teaching children, from the get-go, that everyone is an individual and no one is more important or more special than anyone else for any reason. Maybe someday, BN747, that will make sense to you (but I doubt it).

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:15 pm

"A rather foolish post teenager who thinks he knows all the answers to every social issue and especially about racism, race relations and it's horrendous history.

You're all of what ... 20?, you just sprouted your 1st pubic hairs "

Wow. Mature. I'm a teenager AND I'm 20 AND my profile says I'm 21-25. So point number 1, you are trash--probably the worst person I've seen on here. Even sadder, after 30+ years of life this is the best you can come up with, ad hominem attacks. I'm ashamed for you. My pubic hairs "just sprouted"; I think that's the height of your prowress. A true sign of intelligence.

" you already have it figured out how business-to-business relations operate. "
And apparently you have me figured from reading my profile; I'm already a racist, stupid teenager (that happens to be 21-25). I bet you think I'm judgmental too...that would be irony huh? I honestly have not seen anyone else on airliners.net spout this level of garbage.

"fear-based uninformed statements " Fear of what?

Let me continue reading your verbose rant *personal attack....assumptions...projections...more personal attacks...assumptions*

AH a point:

"He threatened to bring the United States up on charges of crimes against humanity before the UN"

Did he also threaten to do the same thing to the Muslim world?

" When dealing in those circles "smear tactics, nepotism, black mail, extortion, and race politics" all these vices are fully employed. They are currently in full throttle in the Martha Stewart case, The NYSE/Grasso case, the Kobe Bryant case, the Adelphia case, the Iraq War (in one form or a combination thereof)... "

What a motley collection of personalities that have little in common. But I know you lassoed them all together because you think they are products of criminal activity., which you ALSO use to justify actions of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, who I assume you admire. On that I would agree. The duo has resorted to criminal activity like the brothers behind Adelphia and they and their followers brand anyone who opposes them as "racist" much in the same way many feel the Bush administration brands the opposition as "anti American". So basically you've stated Jesse and Al are crooks, in much the same way as the other crooks you've listed. We agree.

I do not accept that we have to resort to the lowest common denominator but I am responding to you, after all.

Incidentally, I have no idea what Martha Stewart and the Grasso case are doing in there; the former was a victim of her own bad decision and the latter was merely a victim of being given a socially unacceptable paycheck.

"you won't make as much of a fool of yourself as you did here... "
Let me reiterate "You're all of what ... 20?, you just sprouted your 1st pubic hairs ""

You are quite possibly the single worst poster on airliners.net.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:19 pm

"A rich kid is a child of privilege...not a minority kid.. "

Apparently the two are exclusive. What if your a rich minority kid? Honestly BN747, not only are you a complete jerk, you're a dumb jerk; those two AREN'T mutually exclusive.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
BN747
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:34 pm

A minority child who gets into a college, not because they are qualified, but because of affirmative action (a privilege extended to minorities only) is wrong. A minority person who receives a job promotion, not because they are qualified, but because they are filling a racial quota (a privilege extended to minorities only). Maybe that is not "privileged" in your perception of the word but it is when used in conjunction with "racial equality".

That is your own racist perspective my friend... not a fact. I say racist because you are older than I am and have lived in this country longer. You actually saw minorities marginalized and cast as second-class citizens. You witnessed an America that allowed Nazi Prisoners to ride in better classed trains/buses than black American or Japnases-American US troops. You lived when working black families paid taxes, couldn't vote, sent their kids to schools worse than shacks in the worse barrios of Tijuana, Mexico. You lived when all this was very real... and had been for 100s of years. You've bridged the gap between then and now and because hard fought for efforts to right long standing wrongs... as wrong as you think affirmative action was I think it was and in certain cases is very right. Because when people where treated like that when you were young and they were threated this way for years, they are literally handicapped in such a society. And they deserved handicapped parking and any other special considerations to even out the field. Harmony cannot exist if you keep one child in the cellar and the others have free reign. Sooner or later the oppressed one will emerge and you have to choices... kill him or make amends...regardless of how unfair it is to the unoppressed. And that kid in the cellar was every oppressed group in America (from women to the american indian) that is the only way right such a wrong. You're 'act like' it didn't happen or it doesn't have legacy or consequences approach is sure to keep racism alive why? Because burying your head under the sand has never worked!

because BN747 fails to see that to truly achieve racial equality, SOMEONE, starting with parents & grandparents have to teach children that everyone (not just paraplegic kids, like you advocate, BN747) is unique and "special" but none of them are superior

No what parents have to do is simply tell the kids the truth.. no matter how ugly it is. Simple.

The bottom line is that racial equality will never be achieved in this country by the Al Sharpton's and Jesse Jackson's of the land. They continue to divide, on racial lines, everything in today's society. The government lends a hand in this by being politically correct (the "hyphenization" of America - African-American, Asian-American, Cuban-American, etc). Dr. Martin Luther King's dream was for all people, regardless of race, color, creed, etc, to be able to work and live together.

Yes that was his dream but reality is a very different thing. And the way to solve is take the issue head on, by the horns... not to act or pretend like it doesn't exist. A lesson, that given all you've seen in your life, that totally escaped you! For the younger generations I can understand how this miss this valuable lesson but given the years you've lived... it's just downright shameful.

You need to re-read what I wrote about Sharpton/Jackson.. you're still viewing the issue from the layman's 3 second-perspective-- see the part about dealing in big dollar circles the point is perspicous.

Again, it starts by teaching children, from the get-go, that everyone is an individual and no one is more important or more special than anyone else for any reason.

NO... that's more of that 'birds and the bees horseshit'... we need to step up and tell kids the gut wrenching truth that life is not fair, that some things will come easy and many won't, that we and them need to concentrate on making things better by not making mistakes our parents made.

BN747

[Edited 2004-07-27 05:36:54]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MxCtrlr
Topic Author
Posts: 2312
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:22 am

RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:28 pm

BN747,

You've missed the point....

I said....

Again, it starts by teaching children, from the get-go, that everyone is an individual and no one is more important or more special than anyone else for any reason.

And you replied...

NO... that's more of that 'birds and the bees horseshit'... we need to step up and tell kids the gut wrenching truth that life is not fair, that some things will come easy and many won't, that we and them need to concentrate on making things better by not making mistakes our parents made.

The two are most certainly NOT mutually-exclusive! Telling kids that they are no more or less important than anyone else in society does not mean not telling them the truth about what came before. To deny history is to repeat it. Don't confuse the two and try and say that I am advocating lying to children. At the same time, don't over-inflate them by telling them they are more special than "so-and-so" for whatever reason.

Understand now?

You witnessed an America that allowed Nazi Prisoners to ride in better classed trains/buses than black American or Japnases-American US troops. You lived when working black families paid taxes, couldn't vote, sent their kids to schools worse than shacks in the worse barrios of Tijuana, Mexico. You lived when all this was very real... and had been for 100s of years. You've bridged the gap between then and now and because hard fought for efforts to right long standing wrongs... as wrong as you think affirmative action was I think it was and in certain cases is very right.

Read my profile again. It does not say "Born from 36 to 45" it says "Age: 36 to 45". I'm on the high side of that number to be sure but the Nazi aggression was in my Father's time, not mine. Same for blacks not being able to vote. Yes, its true that I can still vividly remember seeing "Whites Only" and "Coloreds Only" signs on water fountains growing up and, my family took great pains to explain to me that while some people looked at Blacks (I single that group out because they were the main concern back then) as second-class people, I shouldn't because they were no different (as human beings) nor any less-deserving of respect than I was.

And the way to solve is take the issue head on, by the horns... not to act or pretend like it doesn't exist. A lesson, that given all you've seen in your life, that totally escaped you!

With that and my previous statement in the paragraph above as a backdrop, I know MANY folks, who are considered minorities, who have worked their way through college and universities on their own merits, without the benefits of Affirmative Action entitlements. Why can some do it while others can't? How about a drive, a determination to make something more for themselves rather than have it handed to them every step of the way. How about "taking the issue head on...by the horns..." and solving the problem (or at least attempting to) for yourself, without someone handing it to you? How about personal responsibility? There are very few blacks out there that can say they personally know/knew a slave, yet many of them (not all, by any means) drop "slavery" any time it suits their needs. (But I digress).

"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; Teach him to fish and he will eat for the rest of his days!" What you earn is far sweeter than anything given to you. That is true of today's spoiled white kids (who think they should start out on top of the corporate world because Mommy or Daddy are way up the ladder (but they didn't see them working to get there). That is also true of enitlements like Affirmative Action.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:31 pm

And in you go to my RU list MxCtrlr! That was a beautiful piece of work. And a reality that for some clearly, is hard to swallow.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

[Edited 2004-07-27 07:36:11]
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15324
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:53 pm

"With that and my previous statement in the paragraph above as a backdrop, I know MANY folks, who are considered minorities, who have worked their way through college and universities on their own merits, without the benefits of Affirmative Action entitlements. "

Asian (even those formerly interned Japanese that were alluded to) and Eastern Europeans have worked their way from poor outcasts to "overrepresented" minorities--the ones that I like to call "no, not THAT minority" because when colleges/businesses/etc want to find out what minority, if any, you are, they are only interested in a few, but "no, not THAT minority". White Africans fall into this category as well.

[Edited 2004-07-27 07:54:31]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: Is This Really A Race Problem?

Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:56 pm

I didn't read a lot of the replies as I feel it got out of control, but:

"How do you expect me to accept your apology when you haven't done anything to rectify the situation?"

Do WHAT to rectify it? What's he supposed to do, smooth out the kid's hair?
Phil Derner Jr.

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