artsyman
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Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:16 am

Outsourcing Jobs Reaches New Heights

by Staff Reporter Melynda Jill

Washington DC - Congress today announced that the Office of President of the United States will be outsourced to overseas interests as of September 30th, the end of this fiscal year. The move is being made to save $400K a year in salary, a record $521 Billion in deficit expenditures and related overhead.

"The cost savings will be quite significant" says Congressman Adam Smith (D - Wash) who, with the aid of the GAO (the General Accounting Office) has studied outsourcing of American jobs extensively. "We simply can no longer
afford this level of outlay and remain competitive in the world stage," Congressman Smith said.

Mr. Bush was informed by email this morning of the termination of his position. He will receive health coverage, expenses and salary until his final day of employment. After that, with a two week waiting period, he will then be eligible for $240 dollars a week from unemployment insurance for 13 weeks. Unfortunately he will not be able to receive state Medicaid health insurance coverage as his unemployment benefits are over the required limit.

Preparations have been underway for some time for the job move. Sanji Gurvinder Singh of Indus Teleservices, Mumbai, India will be assuming the Office of President of the United States as of October 1. Mr. Singh was born in the United States while his parents were here on student visas, thus making him eligible for the position. He will receive a salary of $320 (USD) a month but with no health coverage or other benefits. Due to the time difference between the US and India, Mr. Singh will be working primarily at night, when offices of the US Government will be open.

"I am excited to serve in this position," Mr. Singh stated in an exclusive interview. "Working nights will let me keep my day job at the American
Express call center. I always knew I could be President someday."

Congress stressed patience when calling Mr. Singh as he may not be fully aware of all the issues involved with his new position. A Congressional
Spokesperson noted that Mr. Singh has been given a script tree to follow which will allow him to respond to most topics of concern. The Spokesperson further noted that "additional savings will be realized as these scripting tools have been successfully used by Mr. Bush and will enable Mr. Singh to provide an answer without having to fully understand the issue itself."

Mr. Bush has been offered the use of a Congressional Page to help him write a resume and prepare for his upcoming job transition. According to
Manpower, Inc., the placement firm, Mr. Bush may have difficulties in securing a new position as job prospects in the Sports Franchise
Ownership arena remain limited. A recently released report from the
Pentagon suggests a good prospect for him as a newly unemployed person may be in the Army National Guard. There he would be called up with his unit and stationed in Iraq, a country he has visited briefly before.

"I've been there, I know all about Iraq and the conditions there," stated Mr. Bush. He gained invaluable knowledge of the country in his first visit at the Baghdad Airport non-smoking terminal and gift shop.

Meanwhile in Baghdad and Falluja, Iraq, sources report that local Iraqis say Mr. Bush would receive an especially warm reception from them. Such sources stated the Iraqis only request would be to be informed of which convoy he would be riding in order to give him the welcome he deserves.

Congress continues to explore other outsourcing possibilities including that of Vice-president and most Cabinet positions.
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:18 am

While mildly entertaining, anyone who denies the benefits of outsourcing is a moron.
 
Stretch 8
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:19 am

Funny stuff.

There was a similar piece about Congress getting the same treatment a few months back . . .

Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:20 am

McKinsey just did a study that every dollar that America moves offshore produces $1.13 for the American economy. By contrast, every dollar that Germany moves offshore produces $0.20 for the German economy.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:23 am

While mildly entertaining, anyone who denies the benefits of outsourcing is a moron.

Yes, getting rid of high-paying American jobs, shipping them overseas, and having said Americans then work for about 9 grand less a years is highly beneficial.

Who's the moron?

As for the story, I thought it was pretty cute.
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:27 am

While mildly entertaining, anyone who denies the benefits of outsourcing is a moron.

Yes, getting rid of high-paying American jobs, shipping them overseas, and having said Americans then work for about 9 grand less a years is highly beneficial.

Who's the moron?

As for the story, I thought it was pretty cute


Protectionism never benefits an economy and in the long run is more detrimental then the short run negative effects. What is the difference between exporting a "job" and exporting "production" ? I understand the short-term hardships, but a macroeconomic analysis cannot factor short-term and short range effects for long term economy wide benefits.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:32 am

Protectionism isn't trying to keep the best jobs here-that's just common sense. The only ones who benefit from outsourcing are shareholders, and the workers, as usual, get trampled on.

And I'm glad you understand the "short-term" hardships. Go tell that to a guy that worked for 25 years at the Timken company, in Canton, and his job, and 1300 more were shipped overseas. Tell him about how you sympathize with his "short-term" hardship of making a hell of a lot less money.

Again, I ask, who is the moron in this case? Look in the mirror, friend.
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:34 am

The only ones who benefit from outsourcing are shareholders, and the workers, as usual, get trampled on.


So who has more rights? The shareholders or the workers?

[Edited 2004-08-02 19:35:59]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:42 am

"And I'm glad you understand the "short-term" hardships. Go tell that to a guy that worked for 25 years at the Timken company, in Canton, and his job, and 1300 more were shipped overseas. "

Oh for god's sake, go tell the horse and buggy drivers your sob story when they were replaced by the automobile. Hold the hands of the families that lost their rail jobs when the airplane became popular. If we stopped innovation and technology because it might temporarily hurt a small minority, we would still be cavemen.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
artsyman
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:44 am

McKinsey just did a study that every dollar that America moves offshore produces $1.13 for the American economy.
***

Yes that is true, but it takes the dollar from the American workers pocket, and gives it to the large American company that outsources the job in the first place. While I am far from a socialist, this is pretty much a rich get richer story and the poor get poorer. The job market statistics show that the wages for these people get lower and lower, while for obvious reasons the profit for the company gets higher.

If someone came to my business and told me that I could be way more profitable by cutting my wage bill in half, I could understand the appeal, it is obvious, but these are short terms gains that will leave a real nasty hangover.

If we stopped innovation and technology because it might temporarily hurt a small minority, we would still be cavemen.

How is taking jobs and the money used to pay for them and giving them to another countries economy smart for the country at large. The argument sometimes used is that it keeps products cheap, but I cannot recall the last time I saw a company announce that they could now afford to drop their prices because they outsource. Goods may remain cheap, but the people that buy them have less jobs and less money to pay for them.

A caveman has a better command of the english language than the current US President.

j

[Edited 2004-08-02 19:50:14]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:46 am

"Yes that is true, but it takes the dollar from the American workers pocket, and gives it to the large American company that outsources the job in the first place. While I am far from a socialist, this is pretty much a rich get richer story and the poor get poorer"

Where do you think that dollar @ "the large American company"? Do you think it just disappears?

It is the rich (Americans) getting richer, but the poor (India, for ex.) are getting richer as well. It truly benefits just about everyone. And just imagine if India had the ability to consume incrementally more American products...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:47 am

If someone came to my business and told me that I could be way more profitable by cutting my wage bill in half, I could understand the appeal, it is obvious, but these are short terms gains that will leave a real nasty hangover.

Wrong... any economics student will tell you that. Jobs are only outsourced to labor-abundant areas... where these countries have a comparative advantage. The United States retains jobs in capital-intensive industries and imports them. Both processes raise real wages in both economies.

 
artsyman
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:55 am

Another interesting stat is the illegal Mexican worker in Texas. They come into the US to earn money (power to them), and then every day there is a line up of them at the post office sending the money down to their families in Mexico. Again, this money is leaving the US economy.
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:56 am

It might leave it US economy but it sure as hell doesn't stay in Mexico.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:06 am

So who has more rights? The shareholders or the workers?

The workers, seems to me. They're the ones that bust their ass so some shareholder can make a little money-off their labor. But I can see where you say the shareholder, because that's the GOP way-as long as the bottom line is good, screw the workers. After all, one of Bush's own economic advisors said that throwing well-paying American jobs overseas is a good thing, so it must be true.

Oh for god's sake, go tell the horse and buggy drivers your sob story when they were replaced by the automobile.

This isn't about a technological advancement, Maverick. It's about taking a higher paying American job, and sending it overseas for a hell of a lot less. That's what it's about. But I'm not surprised you don't see that.

It is the rich (Americans) getting richer, but the poor (India, for ex.) are getting richer as well. It truly benefits just about everyone.

Except, of course, for your fellow American, who got a LOT poorer, because his job was sent overseas to someone else, and now his standard of living has gone way down. I didn't know the American government had a pact to improve the economic well-being of foreigners over that of Americans.

Oh, I forgot, the rich got richer, and that's all that matters, right?

Wrong... any economics student will tell you that. Jobs are only outsourced to labor-abundant areas...

Well, there are tons of labor-abundant areas in Northeast Ohio, thanks to this great thing called outsourcing. There's thousands of read-and-willing laborers, ready to do an honest days work. But wait, they HAD decent jobs, and did honest days work BEFORE their jobs were sent overseas!

What you said was an outright lie. It has nothing to do with "abundant labor". It has to do with CHEAP labor, at the expense of experienced, hard-working Americans, whom you don't seem to give a shit about.

Again, the economic policy of our right-wing friends seems to be that if it makes rich Americans even wealthier, it's a great thing, and fuck those peons who complain because their jobs are given away overseas.
 
Continental
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:57 am

I can't believe people are actually saying this is a good thing and is beneficial! Alpha's right, tell it to the radiologist who spent thousands in school/med. school and countless years of study to only have his reward reaped from him and sent overseas. Gimme a break.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:00 am

Yeah great idea Alpha, lets protect every domestic job. That saves us today but in a few years businesses here will start shutting down completely because they cannont compete in the global marketplace. Then nobody has a job, wow, great idea.

Sorry to those who have been outsourced, your job loss was necessary for the common good, I guess you should have gone to school and gained a few skills so you could do something other than assembly line or call center work.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:05 am

Yeah great idea Alpha, lets protect every domestic job. That saves us today but in a few years businesses here will start shutting down completely because they cannont compete in the global marketplace.

Why? Because said companines won't train their workers? Said companies won't update equipment and the ways they do business? American workers have competed for 140 years in the industrial age, and most of that time, it's because they stayed on the cutting edge. But instead of doing that, we get rid of our workers, give the jobs overseas, let those workers become better at it than ours, and in the long run, all these companies you applaud for shitting on American workers will indeed go under, because all the good jobs will be gone from the U.S, and those workers they outsourced to, will then be working for someone else for a higher wage.

What goes around, comes around, and this sanctioned policy of outsourcing, which the Bush Administration thinks is such a great thing, will make the U.S. a poorer nation in the long run economically, not stronger.

To think otherwise is simply moronic.
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:20 am

Go read an economics book Alpha.
 
Continental
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:21 am

"Sorry to those who have been outsourced, your job loss was necessary for the common good, I guess you should have gone to school and gained a few skills so you could do something other than assembly line or call center work. "

You're aware that there are other jobs being outsourced, right? It's not just assembly lines and call centers that are outsourcing. When some of these people started doing this work 20+ years ago, they had no idea in the future some guy halfway across the world would be doing it for cheaper, you can't blame it on them...
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:22 am

Go stand in an unemployment line, JAL777. That's the real world, not some economic manual.

Moronic.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:17 am

"Go stand in an unemployment line, "

With your thinking Alpha, that line will become twice as long, as is the case with France or Germany, where almost a quarter of their 25 year olds are unemployed.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:23 am

Outsource, outsource, outsource some more...

http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/articles/dg-05-03-04.html
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:23 am

Go stand in an unemployment line, JAL777. That's the real world, not some economic manual.

With your economic insights, we'll both be standing there.
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:24 am

Maverick,

Please don't present us any hard facts. There' not called for. Especially for the likes of Alpha1 et al.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:42 am

Just one more JAL777:

http://sify.com/finance/fullstory.php?id=13522307

And if the exception proves the rule:

http://www.nojobsforindia.com/ViewStory.aspx?storyid=40

They don't even bother trying to refute what's in the report... Usually a sign of a lost cause. So by their logic we shouldn't believe an anti-outsourcing website when it comes to anti-outsourcing literature...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
dvk
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:58 am

Economic progress should be balanced with a degree of compassion and humanity, which is sorely lacking in most corporate hierarchies today. It's not a new story... why do you think labor unions evolved? One thing is for certain. No corporation that chooses to outsource jobs overseas should be allowed to use legal loopholes to get tax BREAKS for eliminating US jobs.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:02 am

Alpha, in Economics they have this thing they call "Comparative Advantage" This is why you cannot protect industries and survive in the global marketplace.

The short definition is: If someone can produce something cheaper than you they will, and you should just give up and go home unless you can figure out a way to beat them.

Outsourcing keeps our companies competitive and without it we would be a lot worse off than we are. Alpha, my macroeconomics textbook only cost me about $50.. I'll sell it to you for $25, all the key points are already highlighted, it might do you some good to understand what you bitch about.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:03 am

No corporation that chooses to outsource jobs overseas should be allowed to use legal loopholes to get tax BREAKS for eliminating US jobs.

Ding ding ding!!!! Maybe if our tax laws weren't so beyond comprehension, much of these problems could be eleminated.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:11 am

Ah, the CATO Institute. Another right-wing ass-kissing organization, that already believes outsourcing good American jobs overseas is a good thing. Really reliable.

Keep believing this nonsense, gentlemen. It's not good policy, it's not good politics. It will, in the end, bite politician and corporation both in the ass.

Finally, what happens when ALL the good American jobs are gone, due to outsourcing, and most, if not all our workers, are foreced to take lower paying jobs? When is it enough for you nuts? When all the good jobs are gone? Because, if this remains public policy under this man currently in the White House, such nonsense is going to happen more and more, until the American worker is a 2nd class worker, not the class of the world, as they've been for 150 years.
 
dan2002
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:22 am

"And I'm glad you understand the "short-term" hardships. Go tell that to a guy that worked for 25 years at the Timken company, in Canton, and his job, and 1300 more were shipped overseas. "

Oh for god's sake, go tell the horse and buggy drivers your sob story when they were replaced by the automobile. Hold the hands of the families that lost their rail jobs when the airplane became popular. If we stopped innovation and technology because it might temporarily hurt a small minority, we would still be cavemen.


I wouldnt say that, most of these places had very modern equipment, just relocated to < FILL IN OTHER NON US COUNTRY HERE >, and used there, in the same way, as it was in the US, but in another country.

So try telling that sh** to my father, except its not 25 years, its 31, and it was only 500 that got laid off when Midland steel closed up. Most of the time sadly the places where, Timken, Midland, etc were, there was no effort to restart production there, at all. Hell, theyre building housing where Midland was, so atleast the construction/demolition workers still have jobs.
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
JAL777
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:23 am

Finally, what happens when ALL the good American jobs are gone, due to outsourcing, and most, if not all our workers, are foreced to take lower paying jobs? When is it enough for you nuts? When all the good jobs are gone? Because, if this remains public policy under this man currently in the White House, such nonsense is going to happen more and more, until the American worker is a 2nd class worker, not the class of the world, as they've been for 150 years.

The same thing that happened when all the manufacturing jobs moved overseas? The US does not have an abundant supply of labor, it is most competitive in capital intensive industries and agriculture (ironically). Your thinking is highly flawed... find any reliable source to backup your claim and I'll rest my case.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:27 am

"Ah, the CATO Institute. Another right-wing ass-kissing organization, that already believes outsourcing good American jobs overseas is a good thing. Really reliable.
"

Yeah..Cato...just another LIBERTARIAN right wing ass kissing organization...Riiiiight.

"Finally, what happens when ALL the good American jobs are gone, due to outsourcing, and most, if not all our workers"

We'll all be working at McDonalds, duh. Every other job will be overseas in India. In fact, even the McDonalds will be in India. No one will be working in America, period. I don't know what we'll all do since every last job will be in China or India.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:42 am

As a long time employee in one of the world's largest international corporations I can tell you exactly what "outsourcing to cut wage countries" means. You don't have to read books about economics, just read the following fifteen lines.

We hire a lot of people in low wage countries and spend zillions on their education.

Some become good employees, some become less so.

The good ones, as soon as they can prove their qualities, they jump to a new high wage job in Sil Val or such. The not so good ones stay.

Then we hire a new bunch and spend new zillions on their education, and - you guessed it - back to square one.

And the "old" decentralized high wage workforce continue to do the same job. A few of them are laid off, and in order to continue to run the company they are replaced with temporary contractors at double or triple high wage pay, and they keep on for decades.

Today's fashion of corporate management (and it is no more than a fashion) is to hold any senior manager in the same position for no more than three years. During that short time frame he has to position himself for his next three years assignment.

That means that they have just enough time to produce a simple Excel spreadsheet which their secretary converts into an impressive and colorful 50+ frames PowerPoint presentation. Just in time for the appraisal procedure which is so all important for personal positioning for the next assignment.

The world's large corporations presently ignores that "globalization" is two-sided.

1. Corporations have the whole world at playground.

2. Highly qualified employees have the whole world as potential workplace.

By ignoring the 2nd side of globalization the spreadsheet of senior managers become much simpler. That way they can in fact totally remove the time scale from the calculations.

Who is guilty? The share holders are guilty.

In older days the shareholders elected managers to manage the companies today, and to position the companies for the future.

Today the horizon is three months - until next quarterly financial statement.

[Edited 2004-08-02 23:47:30]
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
B2707SST
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:00 am

This isn't about a technological advancement, Maverick. It's about taking a higher paying American job, and sending it overseas for a hell of a lot less. That's what it's about. But I'm not surprised you don't see that.

They are actually directly comparable. Let's say a typist is paid $30,000 per year to copy legal documents. One day some guy invents the photocopier, which the firm can buy for $10,000 and get the same output per day as the typist. Obviously, the firm will buy the copier and lay off the typist.

If you substitute "photocopier" with "low-wage Indian typist," the situations are identical. If someone invents a machine tomorrow that automatically diagnoses X-rays for half the cost of a professional radiologist, we'd probably say that's too bad for the radiologists that get canned, but on the whole a step forward for society. But when the substitute is a third-world worker instead of a machine, people have different reactions despite the fact that the economics are fundamentally identical.

We can argue about whether outsourcing is "good or "fair" all day - it comes down to value judgments. But there is little question that it is, on net balance, good for an economy. There is also not much that we can do to stop it, aside from improving the competitive environment here in the US -- tax code reform would certainly be a start. In the long run, neither Kerry nor Bush can repeal the laws of economics, and vast differentials in productivity-adjusted wages are naturally unstable.

In any case, the impact of outsourcing has been exaggerated by politicians and the affected industry groups. "The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), in its first look at layoffs due to the relocation of work, identified only 4,633 jobs that were lost due to relocation of work overseas during the first quarter. "

http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/10/news/economy/jobless_outsourcing/index.htm

People also ignore the crucial element of productivity. In most cases, American workers are so much more productive than their third world counterparts that it would not pay to move their jobs overseas. American worker A may make five times more than Indian worker B, but if A produces ten times as much as B, then her job is safe.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:38 am

Why? Because said companines won't train their workers?

Why should a company train their workers to do jobs other than what they were hired to do?

I'm sure Gordon Bethune would have a hard time justifying a fare increase to the public, saying, "One of our ASAs in CLE wants to learn how to be an accountant, so we need to pay for that somehow!"

I hate to see anyone lose their job to someone overseas, but if it means that goods and services can be provided to consumers more cheaply without losing quality, then so be it.

A business isn't responsible to ensure their employees have the training or skill to seek jobs elsewhere later in life.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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FDXmech
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:10 am

Alpha, I'll chip in a couple of bucks for your new toupe. For you must've pulled out most of your hair by now.
This must be some sort of mass hypnosis to have people believe the loss of good paying jobs, destruction of our industrial base, the squeezing of the middle class, etc is somehow a good and desireable thing for our nation.

Also, a consumer wouldn't be, well, a consumer without an income.

But those who favor overseas outsourcing better also favor higher taxes, local thru federal to pay for the loss of revenues paid for from previously employed or better employed workers.

And it's not only blue collar but high paying computer and engineering positions going overseas.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Matt D
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:15 am

Alpha1:

If I could only put you on my Respected list twice.....

You said it all...

and so well..

Thank you.
 
cptkrell
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:23 am

This is not pro-outsourcing, but a fact. Companies are in business to make money for their owners (or stockholders, if publicly held). They are not philanthropic organizations. Except in rare circumstances where a privately held company feels added responsibility to its' employees and temporarily sacrifices profit margin at the pleasure of the owner, staying in the competitive game is necessary to stay in business.

Perhaps not usual, but in the autos, the unions must take much responsibility for the loss of their own jobs (at least in the area of design and engineering where I worked). Exaggerated work rules and pay demands met by incompetent management finally imploded. We finally started much outsourcing (read: mostly to local "job shops" as opposed to overseas). Why would the corporation budget $85,000.00 to paint a show car in-house when we could contract it down the street for $30,000.00 and get a superior-quality job?

There's two sides to most stories. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15324
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:27 am

"This must be some sort of mass hypnosis to have people believe the loss of good paying jobs, destruction of our industrial base, the squeezing of the middle class, etc is somehow a good and desireable thing for our nation.

Also, a consumer wouldn't be, well, a consumer without an income. "

If this is true, why is:

*GDP higher than ever?

*GDP per household higher than ever AND household size smaller than ever (aka more GDP per person)?

*The black middle class is larger than ever before

*Black home ownership is greater than ever

*Unemployment is still at or below previous decade averages

If outsourcing was so bad, wouldn't we have a smaller GDP after doing it for decades? Wouldn't unemployment have sky rocketed? Wouldn't average income have plummeted? None of these things have happened in spite of the outsourcing that's been going on forever...

Care to explain these paradoxes?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15324
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:04 am

"10 Truths About Trade

Hard facts about offshoring, imports, and jobs.
"

http://www.reason.com/0407/fe.bl.truths.shtml

...unfortunately facts and reality are not on the side of those that are anti-efficiency (which includes outsourcing, automation, insourcing, etc.)
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:45 am

>>>This is not pro-outsourcing, but a fact. Companies are in business to make money for their owners (or stockholders, if publicly held). They are not philanthropic organizations. Except in rare circumstances where a privately held company feels added responsibility to its' employees and temporarily sacrifices profit margin at the pleasure of the owner, staying in the competitive game is necessary to stay in business.<<<

OK then. If businesses are strictly vehicles to make money for the stockholder - the U.S. be damned. I guess it's a bitter pill I must swallow.

On the other hand, the US government is in business (pardon the pun) to ensure the viability of the nation - corporate America be damned. The government must ensure fair trade policies as all our trade partners do. This is a quid pro quo world. I've always lauded corporate profitability and encouraged pro-business policies by our government. In return, corporate America generated American jobs. But when corporations sh*t on the hand it profits from - then it's time to re-evaluate our priorities.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:24 am

"On the other hand, the US government is in business (pardon the pun) to ensure the viability of the nation - "

And they are--well they were. More efficiency is always better than less efficiency, and that is something that technology and outsourcing provide: doing more with less. The government didn't have a problem until the election year when they (bipartisan) passed laws that required tax money not be used on vendors that outsource American jobs. This ensures that your tax dollars don't go to the vendor with the lowest costs; they've actually ensured that your tax dollars, oddly, are wasted.

Now that I think of it...that's par for the course.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:30 am

The baby boomers are retiring in droves. Outsourcing is not a bad thing. We're approaching a break point in the next 5-7 years where unemployment will be so low we'll have no choice but to turn to other countries. There won't be enough of us in the workforce.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15324
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:08 am

"The baby boomers are retiring in droves. Outsourcing is not a bad thing. We're approaching a break point in the next 5-7 years where unemployment will be so low we'll have no choice but to turn to other countries. There won't be enough of us in the workforce
"

Which makes you wonder what will happen in Europe, where reproduction rates are far below replacement levels, and immigration and labor laws are extremely rigid...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
L-188
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:57 am

The sad part is that if Kerry gets elected he is going to outsource the sovergnty of the US to the United Nations.

That is completely unacceptable.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:52 am

The sad part is that if Kerry gets elected he is going to outsource the sovergnty of the US to the United Nations.

Hell that shouldn't come as any surprise. There are a lot of people in this country who would love to see California and Texas given back to Mexico, the Midwest and South back to the French, Alaska to the Russians, Florida back to Spain (although I doubt the Spaniards would be stupid enough to take it), and everything else to the Iroquois and Sioux.



 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:47 am

To FDXmech and others who may have issue with my statement:

"....Companies are in business to make money..." (my Rep38)

I can only suggest you folks figure another reason, implement your ideas successfully, and then the entire world will be beholdin' to your new economic model. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:17 pm

The sad part is that if Kerry gets elected he is going to outsource the sovergnty of the US to the United Nations.

That is completely unacceptable.


And you actually BELIEVE that, L-188? I don't know of any U.S. President that EVER did that, and yet you have the nerve to even say that? If he gets elected, you can just leave the country then. Go to Canada. Go somewhere else, because you're about the worst excuse I've ever heard for being an American, if you truly believe the horse shit you're spreading.

What a dishonorable person you've become. Leave the nation-we'll be better off.
 
User avatar
yyz717
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RE: Job Outsourcing: It Could Be Better...

Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:30 pm

Protectionism isn't trying to keep the best jobs here-that's just common sense. The only ones who benefit from outsourcing are shareholders, and the workers, as usual, get trampled on.

Given that most shareholders are average middle class Americans, then that means that outsourcing works for everyone. As shareholders get richer thru firms profitably outsourcing, more investments in value-added products are made.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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