MD-90
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Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:15 pm

http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/07/30/120.html

And what is this hidden glory, which does more honor to the people of the United States than every single military action ordered by their corruption-riddled leaders during the past 50 years? It's the fact that in the midst of history's most vicious, all-devouring, inhuman war, only about 15 percent of U.S. soldiers on the battlefield actually tried to kill anyone.

In-depth studies by the U.S. Army after the war showed that between 80 percent and 85 percent of the greatest generation never fired their weapons at an exposed enemy in combat, military psychologist Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman reports in Christianity Today. Many times they had the chance, but could not bring themselves to do it. They either withheld their fire altogether or else shot into the air, to the side, anywhere but at the fellow human beings -- their blood kin in biology, mind and mortality -- facing them across the line. This reluctance is even more remarkable given the incessant demonization of the enemy by the top brass, especially in the Pacific, where the Japanese -- soldiers and civilians -- were routinely portrayed by military propaganda as simian, subhuman creatures fit only for extermination.

Yet even with official license given to the most virulent prejudice, even with the sanction of a just cause (self-defense against aggression), even with the incitements of mortal fear, of grief and anger over slain comrades, even with all the moral chaos endemic to warfare, U.S. soldiers killed only with the greatest reluctance, in the direst extremity. These were not "warriors," bloodthirsty automatons with stripped-down brains and cauterized souls, slavering in Pavlovian fury at the bell-clap of command. No, they were real men, willing, as Grossman notes, to stand up for a cause, even die for it, but not willing, in the end, to transgress the natural law (implanted by God or evolution, take your pick) that says: Do not kill your own kind -- and every person of every race and nation is your own kind.



Naturally, that wasn't good enough for the Pentagon. Accordingly, steps were taken to increase the abysmal firing rate and kill ratio.

American soldiers:
World War II - 15%
Korean War - 55%
Vietnam War - 95% fired their weapons with the intent to kill



Today, in the quagmire of occupied Iraq, the brutalizing beat goes on. "Kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, it's like it pounds in my brain," a U.S. soldier told the Los Angeles Times last week. Another shrugged at the sight of freshly killed bodies. "It doesn't bother me at all," he said. "I'm a warrior." Said a third: "We talk about killing all the time. I never used to be this way ... but it's like I can't stop. I'm worried what I'll be like when I get home." A few military officials are beginning to worry, too, noting the high rates of suicide, mental damage and emotional torment among combat veterans.



Interesting perspective from Russia.

[Edited 2004-08-03 06:43:24]
 
QIguy24
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:22 pm

And they say that Americans never get their news from other countries...´

Oh please........

Very good post by the way. Just a shame that you had to destroy it with the last stupid sentence.

It's damn scary when they feel like that. I can imangine that going to war and see what they experience is some crap. I just have one thing to say about it. And that is: Im glad I'm haven't been sent out to war yet.
 
sulman
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:13 pm

I'd certainly like to see the figures for the great restraint and respect for human life Russian ground forces demonstrated in Chechnya.
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Tue Aug 03, 2004 10:41 pm

Vietnam War - 95% fired their weapons with the intent to kill

What do they consider the intent to kill? Holding you M-16 over your head and spraying an entire clip? Though the firing rate may have increased the hit ratio was abysmal because of all the draftee troops.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:12 pm

Vietnam War - 95% fired their weapons with the intent to kill.

If that is the statistic it is probably also true that of those answering that they had done so, a fair percentage were lying. Just as it is true that there are more Vietnam veterans out there than actually served, so it is true that people's war stories get better with each telling.

On the other hand, there was no rear area in Vietnam Even big bases like Cam Rahn Bay and Bien Hoa came under rocket, mortar and sapper attacks. Thus a cook or a clerk-typist might have seen some combat. Our avionics man drew guard duty along the airfield perimeter the night the Tet offensive started. He had quite a body count the next morning. Whereas, in WW II the forward edge of the battle area was generally better defined.

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
North County
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:04 am

Russian newspaper critiquing American troops for shooting at the enemy in a time of War?

Why don't they interview those Russian and Eastern Bloc troops that served along the Berlin Wall and on the Iron Curtain the following questions:

Did you shoot to kill when you fired on the civilians FLEEING to the West?

Did you aim for the upper section of their BACK or did you shot at their legs?

Was it difficult to score a direct hit on the SMALLER children?
 
MD-90
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:50 am

I think that the shoot to kill ratio for Vietnam includes the entire war.

Did John Kerry, at any time during his 4 months in Vietnam, shoot to kill (for example)?
 
PPGMD
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:08 am

I think the question that has to be asked is shooting with the intent to kill. Yeah I could spray my weapon, I sure do intend to kill him, that doesn't mean that there is a chance that my round may actually strike the target (unless it's an aimed shot).

I think the stat I heard was it took almost 1,000 rounds to kill an enemy in Vietnam.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
L-188
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:37 am

No, Kerry waited until his bow gunner emptied 1000 rounds of .50 cal into a postion and then leaped from the boat to empty a clip from his .45 into it.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Phaeton
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:44 am

The soldiers in Iraq were not drafted into the army like during the Vietnam War and World War Two. If you sign up for the army, you should be prepared to kill, which a lot of soldiers in WWII were not, because they were drafted.
"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.", Winston Churchill
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:47 am

Naturally, that wasn't good enough for the Pentagon. Accordingly, steps were taken to increase the abysmal firing rate and kill ratio.

American soldiers:
World War II - 15%



This a recent study? If so, they'd be lucky to find a large enough percentage of those who actually were ground troops to get a reasonable figure. I find it impossible to beleive that only 15% of those storming the beaches and trenches were actually trying to hit something.
 
L-188
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:49 am

Well this is one of the reasons why the Army went from full-auto on the A1 version of the M-16 to 3-round burst on the A2 and later versions.

The brass thought there was too much "spray shootin" that just wasted the troops ammo.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:34 am

What a load of crap .... Only 16 guys killed 60,000 people in Japan with 2 bombs. In Iraq smart bombs are all the rage .... The Russians used Human waves to beat the Germans in Russia and lost thousands & thousands at a time. I would say we fought smarter but we definitely killed lots & lots of people ...
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
L-188
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:20 am

Human wave tactics where also the rage with the Chinese in Korea.

Luckily the US got out of direct frontal assaults after the US Civil War, although we did get dragged into it during WWI.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
KiwiNanday
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:31 am

It was 16 guys killing 225,000 people, but they didn't know what kind of bomb they had onboard. When the tail gunner of Enola Gay saw the mushroom cloud, he thought they had dropped some sort of smoke bomb.
Silly Islamic extremists, it's just a cartoon!
 
MD-90
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:36 pm

Dc10guy, dropping a bomb is different from sticking a knife into someone's back.

Note: When you knife someone in the back, push the knife upwards from below, don't plunge down from above. You're much less likely to hit bone that way, which won't do much damage.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Wwii Soldiers Vs Iraq War Soldiers - Moscow Times

Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:15 pm

Oh,,, yeah right ??? Thanks for that info MD-90....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!

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