luisca
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Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:26 pm

I was reading the history of the Malvinas (Falklands) war. From what I read in the book the UK stoled this land back in the 18something's. This land had always belonged to Spain and later to Argentina but was Stolen one day. Argentina Is the one that has developed infrastructure and trade in the Islands and the one that is the rightfull owner in my point of view. Why does the UK still cling to a land with no strategic or commercial value, instead of returning it to the rightfull owners. Even the Pope supported Argentina in the war, visiting Buenos Aires in what was probably one of the hardest moments in Argentine history.

The same is true with the UK's occupation of Gibraltar, it is a worthless rock supported entirely by economic trade with Spain.

I think it is sick that the UK is still clinging to some outdated "British Empire" nonsense and in a time where the UK is a more "Socially Aware" society it could look above natinalistic pride and see the truth on these issues.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:41 pm

The same is true with the UK's occupation of Gibraltar, it is a worthless rock supported entirely by economic trade with Spain.

If you think Gibraltar is just a "worthless rock" you know less about military strategy and geopolitics than you pretend to. Gibraltar represents a critical choke point. He who controls Gibraltar controls who gets into and out of the Mediterranean via the Atlantic. To address your asinine question, the Argentina's "infrastructure" and "trade" was for one purpose - to make the islands a penal colony. Besides, why should land be turned over to the Argentines when the residents of the Falklands wish to maintain their British citizenship? I could understand it if the residents of the Falklands were launching some insurgency to try to join Argentina, but they overwhelmingly have stated their desire to remain part of Britain and, according to Article 73 of the UN Charter, that desire must be respected.
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B2707SST
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:00 pm

The history of the Falklands isn't that clear-cut, and like many territories of European powers, the islands were handed back and forth many times. The Wikipedia has a handy open-source and relatively unbiased history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War

The Falklands are two main and many smaller islands in the South Atlantic Ocean east of Argentina. Ownership of the group had long been disputed. The Falklands were first discovered probably in the 1520s by the Spanish. The first British claim dates from 1592. In 1690 they were finally named after the Treasurer of the Navy, Viscount Falkland. France established a settlement on East Falkland and claimed the islands 5 April 1764, which the Spanish offered to buy, as they were concerned about disrupting the balance of power in the region. In 1765 the British established a settlement on Saunders Island, and in 1767 France transferred its settlement to Spain. In 1770 the Spanish capture the British settlement, but in 1771 it is handed back. In 1774 and 1806-11 respectively, the British and Spanish leave the islands, each maintaining a claim over them. It is in this general period that the confusion lies.

Argentina gained independence from Spain in 1816 and moved to occupy the Falklands (Islas Malvinas) in 1820, but that settlement did not endure and the Argentinian claim similarly fell into abeyance. Finally, in 1833 the islands were settled by the British. Argentina nevertheless continued to argue that the 'Malvinas' were Argentine territory.


More important than their history is the fact that the islands' inhabitants consider themselves British citizens and have no desire to be annexed by Argentina. Disputed territories like the Falklands, Kashmir, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, even Taiwan, should (and in theory, under the UN charter, do) have the right of self-determination. It would save the world a lot of trouble and suffering if regional powers would let the people be heard and then respect their decision.

--B2707SST
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yyz717
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:07 pm

The bottom line is that the Falklands are British Isles. The only people who have ever lived there for any period of time are British. There has never been a native population.

Perhaps Argentina should focus on improving its own moribund economy before it looks longingly at the Falklands.

Why does the UK still cling to a land with no strategic or commercial value,

By the same argument, why does Argentina want to gain a " land with no strategic or commercial value"?

More important than their history is the fact that the islands' inhabitants consider themselves British citizens and have no desire to be annexed by Argentina.

Exactly. This is the key point. Although Argentina's shameful recent history of dictatorship would perhaps suggest that Argentines are not great respectors of democratic will.


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Arcano
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:26 pm

The argument that Malvinas people want to remain British is biased: of course they do! they are Brisith people! But this is only because UK has setted its population there.

I give you an example. At the end of the Pacific War (Chile against Peru-Bolivia, 1879), the former Peruvian cities of Arica and Tacna were controlled by Chile. There was an agreement with Peru that stated the following: Chile would manage both cities for 10 years. After that, there would be a poll in both cities and the habitants will decide if they wanted to be Chilean or Peruvian.
What happened? a few years before the poll, Chile moved Chilean citizens to both cities to gain more votes. Peru did the same... then, Peru and Chile realized that poll was biased, since the result would be linked to the capacity of each government to carry more people there. So? a new agreement: the border will pass between Tacna and Arica. This is how Tacna is Peruvian and Arica is Chilean now.

So, to stay that Malvinas should remain Brisith because the habitants want to is biased, since Argentina has no chance to put Argentine people there and let them decide, and UK moved it's people to the south Atlantic for answering that question: we want to remain British.

Argentina has been banned to many things related to the Falklands, actually, Chile has more trade and links with the island than Argentina. Remember LAN is allowed to land there on a weekly base.

Anyway, Luisca, I think your opinion is biased. All stories have 2 versions. "Stolen" is a harsh word and we don't know exactly what happened. Many territiories at the times were abandoned and many borders were moved. It would be like Chile claiming that Argentina stole the Patagonia: it's FALSE, because we abandoned Patagonia and Argentina wisely took advantage of that. It was our fault, if "fault" was the right term for that. Argentina stole nothing. So, wait to hear the other version before state things.

Regards,

Arcano
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cfalk
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:40 pm

So, to stay that Malvinas should remain Brisith because the habitants want to is biased, since Argentina has no chance to put Argentine people there and let them decide,

Argentina did have a chance. They settled, looked around, saw diddly/squat, and quickly abandoned the Falklands. The English settled on islands already abandoned by Argentina. Several nations made claims on the islands, but ONLY the English are bullheaded enough to stay in such a God-forsaken place, and only the English have actually done something with their claim other than simply planting a flag and leaving.

Charles
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JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:01 pm

The only wishes that should be considered in a cases such as the Falklands and Gibraltar are the wishes of the inhabitants. These are cases where no indigenous population was displaced, and so the self-determination of the citizens is paramount.

Gibraltar was handed over to Britain by Spain in 1704, by Treaty agreement. End of story. The treaty still stands, Spain doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. Other territories ceded by Spain to Britain in the same treaty (eg. Menorca) have been returned as a result of subsequent treaties, but Gibralter has not. Spain can call it a military occupation if they like, but Gibraltar is a representative democracy, and the recent referendum endorsed the residents' overwhelming wish to remain British. Besides, Spain still holds territory taken from Morocco (Ceuta and Melilla) so are hardly in a position to point fingers.

The Falkland Islanders have also indicated their wish to remain British - there are no Argentines living in the islands, because the original Argentine settlement, and before that the French settlement (for whom incidentally the islands are named in Spanish - the original French settlers came from St Malo, the islands were named after them Les Malouines, which became Las Malvinas in Spanish), were abandoned.
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gkirk
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:30 pm

Hey, Cfalk, British not English, British  Big grin
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virgin744
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:55 pm

don't you mean Falkland's Islands?
 
zak
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:09 pm

i have also wondered when the u.s.a will return panama the territory it keeps occupied to this day
10=2
 
Banco
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:13 pm

There's one fundamental difference between Gibraltar and the Falklands. The Gibraltarians are not ethnic British people, they are Spanish. However, they have overwhelmingly expressed their desire to remain part of the UK. Perhaps the question should be why it is that these people don't want to be part of Spain? Oh, yes and the Spanish are horribly hypocritical on this question with their North African enclaves in Ceuta and Melilla. At least the British respect the will of the people.

In the case of the Falkland Islands, the ONLY reason they are still British is because the population there wish it to be. Think about it, the islands are 8,000 miles away, require a military garrison to defend them, and don't actually contribute much to the British economy. Do you really think the UK is hanging on to them for the sake of empire?

The UK government was exploring the idea of sovereignty transfer throughout the 1970's. There was hesitancy because of Argentina's lack of democracy at the time, and the concept of a leaseback was mooted. It was Argentina who comprehensively destroyed the idea of any sovereignty transfer through the idiotic invasion in 1982. Naturally, the islanders are now implacably hostile to the idea of Argentine government.

If Argentina really wants the islands back, then they have to demonstrate to the islanders that it is in their interests. Argentina is now a democracy (thanks to the British victory in 1982 ironically), and they need to win hearts and minds. It can be done, but it'll take time. The morning after the Falkland Islanders decide it's in their interests to be part of Argentina, you can rest assured that Britain will be gone.

Pretty simple really.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:31 pm

Zak - the Panama Canal zone has already been returned to Panama, I believe. The lease ran out.
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ryanb741
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:35 pm

The UK will never return the Malvinas because there is no such place as the Malvinas. As for the Falkland islands, forget it. It's as British as roast beef and yorkshire pudding.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
gkirk
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:50 pm

"It's as British as roast beef and yorkshire pudding."
Nice statement there  Big grin Of course you need gravy on your Yorkshire puddings  Wink/being sarcastic
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JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:52 pm

Re: "It's as British as roast beef and yorkshire pudding."

Shouldn't that read "It's as British as Chicken Tikka Marsala" ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:30 pm

Finders keepers.

The debate over the Falklands islands is a non-issue, no Argentines have ever
inhabited the island so the Argentines have no legit claim to it. The Falklanders want to remain 100% British, and as long as they want to remain Brit, the islands are not up for negotiation. Same rules apply for Gibraltar.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
iakobos
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:52 pm

There is something called the International Court of Justice.
Any country (who is a signatory) who has territorial claims can bring the case to the Court.
A case was settled recently between Nigeria and Cameroun, whereby borders were adjusted (mostly in favour of Cameroun).

I bet that Spain and Argentina do not even contemplate the prospect of sending lawyers to The Hague...eqd
 
oly720man
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvi

Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:07 am

Will the spanish and portugese speaking peoples leave south america and return the land to the indigenous populations? Will spain and the catholic church return all the gold and other stuff they liberated from the locals? How far back in history do we go? Who should the US of A be returned to? What about Canada? Australia? New Zealand? Should the middle east be redrawn on tribal grounds, not countries invented after WW1? What about Africa?

How about Diego Garcia being handed back instead of being a US aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean?

Incidentally, the falklands have rich fishing grounds that bring in lots of money.

Andy

wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:21 am

i have also wondered when the u.s.a will return panama the territory it keeps occupied to this day

Zak - don't mean to interrupt your typically anti-US sentiments with actual facts, but the canal, as well as all canal-related lands (yes, this includes the Panama Canal Zone), buildings, and infrastructure were given to Panama on December 31, 1999 under the conditions of the Torrijos-Carter Treaty. You're about 5 years behind the times on this one.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
luisca
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:40 am

ZAK i have also wondered when the u.s.a will return panama the territory it keeps occupied to this day

http://www.pancanal.com
http://www.pancanal.com/eng/ctransition/index.html

30 Panamanian high school students died in 1964 by the hands of US troops in protest, this event utlimetly lead to the Torrijos carter treaty. Every year on January 9 we honor the martirs. This was the turning point in the strugle to reclaim the Canal. The initial treaty stated that the US would have it perpetually.

Make some research next time you make such a statement. All lands that the US once occupied were returned on December 31st, 1999. Jimmy Carter and Madeleine Albright came down to the Handover, along with the King of Spain and several other leaders as witnesess.

Incidentally, where I study the (school of aviation of my university) is in the former School of Howard AFB.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
PDPsol
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:10 am

Never underestimate the power of a some random rocks in the South Atlantic populated by sheep, penguins and (few) humans to generate crazy rantings.

Luisca, you live in Panama (although you appear to be obsessed with the W/Kerry election as well as opposing gay marriage for some bizarre reason). Why do you give a rat's a&* about the Falklands/Malvinas? These islands could not be further away from your tropical surroundings.

Who cares, other than desperate Argentine and UK (mostly Argentine) politicians wishing to rouse nationalist sentiments among their constituents?

The Falklands War of 1982 was started as a reckless gamble by frantic Argentine generals terrified of losing whatever shred of popular support they had. Argentina was heading for economic calamity resulting from irresponsible governance and was slowly learning of the dreadful crimes committed by the military. The war was a sideshow meant to distract and motivate; unfortunately, the human cost (to both sides) was devastating and completely unecessary.

Argentina does not need another round of blind nationalism. Unfortunately, Argentina's currrent president, Kirchner, appears obsessed with the 'evil IMF' and 'rapacious capitalists' and incapable of truly addressing the problems facing the Republic.

Those islands will become Argentine when its inhabitants will them to be so.

The islands are completely benign to Argentina's strategic interests and, if anything, can present an opportunity to strengthen the Republic's political, commercial and cultural ties with the UK; strong ties both nations enjoyed to great success throughout the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:13 am

The Falklands are vital to the UK's defenses, much like the Golan Heights.

Bottom line is, all the world's borders are where they are because people killed other people to put them there.

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:16 am

Re: The Falklands are vital to the UK's defenses.

Errr... yeah. Always important to have military resources stationed 13000 miles away on a barren, penguin-infested rock in the opposite hemisphere - you never know where those pesky Russians might land  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Back on topic - it is thought that there might be oil reserves in the continental shelf off the Falklands - if significant reserves are found, this could alter the position a bit.
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Banco
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:23 am

As far as oil reserves are concerned, the UK government forestalled the issue by concluding a revenue sharing deal with the Argentine government some years back. The last thing either side want is an argument over oil rights colouring the picture.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
WiLdmanVzla
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:18 am

Of course the Malvinas must keep their condition as a british colony!!!!!!!!...

Why?

Simple, as a second class power, the british must need something to believe they're an important world power, even in their reality as an "non discussing ally" (slave, in other words) of the U.S.A. .

By the way, the malvinas are 100% argentinian for sure!!!!!!!, but be sure those islands will be a british colony forever and ever... what a shame, a fault of argentinians (remember that stupid war).

*******
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:29 am

the malvinas are 100% argentinian for sure!!!!!!!,

International law states otherwise.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Banco
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:32 am

Simple, as a second class power, the british must need something to believe they're an important world power, even in their reality as an "non discussing ally" (slave, in other words) of the U.S.A. .

Could you at least try to put a coherent argument together, please?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Gman94
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:58 am

Of course the Malvinas must keep their condition as a british colony!!!!!!!!...

Why?

Simple, as a second class power, the british must need something to believe they're an important world power, even in their reality as an "non discussing ally" (slave, in other words) of the U.S.A. .

By the way, the malvinas are 100% argentinian for sure!!!!!!!, but be sure those islands will be a british colony forever and ever... what a shame, a fault of argentinians (remember that stupid war).


I forgot in this day in age if one governement agrees with another government that automatically makes one the slave of the other. Great Logic!!!!

If Britain is a second class power what does that make Mexico or Argentina? The Argies cant even invade and hold an Island on their doorstep when we have to sail a task force 13000 miles to engage them.

If the people living on the Falklands turn round and say they want to become part of Argentina then we would be out of there like a shot. Argentina has no claim over it while the people on the islands want to stay part of the UK.

You could look at just about every bit of land on the planet and say that land does not belong to the people living on it including Mexico. If everyone wanted their rightful land back we would end up with a worldwide Israel/Palestine situation.

Its my land, no its my land, NO ITS MY LAND.!!!!  Nuts
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Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:59 am

Notice how no argentine has answered this thread (till now).

I don't care about the falklands. And a surprising number of Argentines don't either. IMO, let the brits have the islands. Argentina should exploit Antarctica and it's resources.

Now for the Europeans and Americans (and Canadians):

If you guys are so 'concerned' with self-determination towards the kelpers, then why is the same right not given to:

the Catalans
the northern Italians
the Scottish
the welsh
the lapps
the chechens
the native americans tribes
the Quebecois
etc
etc
etc

And you dare talk about Argentina's 'shameful' recent history?? HAHAHA. Well, it's true, but none of you have any right whatsoever to play the high road with us. Your countries histories are easily just as shameful and in most cases bloddier than ours has ever been.

You are all hypocrites and two-faced talking about Argentina's failings. Millions of Europeans from every old country, Jews, and many more would probably be dead if we hadn't harbored them. When Argentina was way wealthier than Europe we helped you out in the World Wars with food and aid. Today, you do nothing but critique.

You poke fun at Argentina's economic problems when back in the 30's your countries were starving to death, and we were not. Should I make fun of that?

You people are a joke.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
North County
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:11 am

So the British are our slaves?

I see a new mini series:

Roots 3, The up-tight House Slaves.


Scene from the series:

Maser Thomas to Maser Richard;

"Does no good looking at their teeth, they are not able to work a whole day in the fields cuz they burn so darn easy, the only job they be able to do is clean the bedpans."
 
Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:14 am

So, I see no one is so willing to throw a rock from their glass house now...

 Crying

My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
saintsman
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:35 am

Derico,

Serious question. You said that a surprising number of Argentines have no interest in the Islands. Was that true in 1982 and if not what has changed their minds? I seem to remember a great deal of support back then.
 
GDB
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:38 am

You forgot to mention all the Nazi war criminals who hid out in S.America, including Argentina.

Scots and Welsh are free to vote for self determination if they wish, there are Welsh and Scottish nationalist parties, and guess what, they won't be tortured and/or murdered or even just 'disappear', something pretty commonplace in Argentina until the Falklands War finally burst the Argentine military machismo once and for all.
A machismo I might add based on a dirty war against it's own people, not from fighting professional troops, even ones 1000's of miles from any base, outnumbered and short of equipment.

Before the war, most people in the UK knew nothing about the Falklands, but were not about to allow some tinpot dictatorship to effectively hold 1800 UK citizens hostage.
When Americans expressed bewilderment, the then UK ambassador reminded them of their own national angst over the much smaller number of US hostages in Iran, and who was the most supportive nation with America in that situation.

Many here do see the Falklands as a bit of an anachronism, a relic, but while the people who live there, and have ALWAYS lived there, want to remain British, they shall.
Democracy, will of the people, even with the usual flaws and contradictions, goes back in the UK rather longer than the past 20 years.
Before Hong Kong is brought up, remember that the treaty that took it from China in the late 19th century always had a hand-back date.

If Argentines were so 'unconcerned' about the islands how come the massive demonstrations in favour of the Junta after the invasion?
Many of the crowd would have been protesting against the Junta just days before.
Nothing like that over here, just families at docks waving off their loved ones, so those in Latin America who still think that the UK saw this unfortunate conflict as some sort of post Imperial dose of viagra, might want to look bit closer to home for irrational expressions of national pride.


 
Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:42 am

Yes, a surprising number of people don't care about the islands.

As for 1982, I was too young to tell you much, but when a country goes to war people tend to rally behind the flag (weather the enterprise is a noble one or not). One would be a fool to not expect that, and that's what the military was aiming to of course. I would say that before the war the falklands were a cause for polititians in both countries. The war made it more of a popular issue. In any event, I don't really care about the Falklands in any shape or form except for the military operations of the conflict.

And the silence when it comes to the many points I made prior is telling. I'm begginning to wonder if I'm really so much smarter, or just a fairier presenter of the facts...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Lurch
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:52 am

Hi people besides fishing grounds the FALKLAND ISLANDS have vast resources of OIL and natural Gas deposits that are only just being tapped so they will eventually be the next big oil producing area of the world and this was the main reason that the ARGENTINE govenment wanted them and still does to this day.

The money from the fishing licensing is mostly plowed back in to the Islands economy and is also used to maintain the links with the UK and helps to pay for the RAF Mount Pleasant air force base along with its Tornado F-3 fighters and tanker aircraft support and the British Army and Navy personnel based in the area which keep the neighbor hood bully boys at bay!

Also when you run Malvinas through the spell checker something intresting happens it changes it in to malfunction.
 
GDB
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:59 am

I'm sure that Canadian members could tell you more about Quebec.

As for rallying behind the flag, you clearly did not see the mass UK demonstrations against the Iraq war last year.
People rally behind the flag when they think it's right to, in a mature democracy at least, there were plenty of dissenting voices about the Falklands War, however many were just motivated by dislike of the Thatcher government or were simply pacifist.

Lazy journalism will tell you that Maggie's 1983 election landslide was because of the Falklands, forgetting that the Labour party was then a mess of in fighting, with the far left getting the upper hand, a useless leader and worst of all for them, a split in the party caused by moderates leaving to form the SDP thus further splitting the anti Thatcher vote.
She'd have won easily anyway.

Look at Northern Ireland, not a popular conflict for obvious reasons, however much people might have been appalled by it and just wanted the UK out, deep down they knew that the alternative was worse with much more violence likely.
There was not a mass campaign to get out, neither was there any great enthusiasm for it, just a reluctant desire to stay the course and hope that the politics would some day work it out.
Again, you had a clear majority of people there who wanted to stay British.


 
Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:00 am

I can't believe what I'm reading. Either I'm really way smarter than everyone here, or I'm being taken for a fool.

"You forgot to mention all the Nazi war criminals who hid out in S.America, including Argentina."

Oh, yes of course. So some 200 war criminals overule the 7 million immigrants, including houndreds of thousands of Jews, and houndreds of thousands of BRITISH people we welcomed, right? With this selective exposition of facts you show your vitriolic dislike of Argentina (you just hate the fact we might have done something good, ever), thanks for confirming what I sense is the prevailing condition here.

"Scots and Welsh are free to vote for self determination if they wish, there are Welsh and Scottish nationalist parties, and guess what, they won't be tortured and/or murdered or even just 'disappear', something pretty commonplace in Argentina until the Falklands War finally burst the Argentine military machismo once and for all."

No of course not. Britain has never violated human rights in it's 1000 year history... How could I dare even mention the atrocious treatment of the Irish, Scotts, and any other who opposed English domination, or the treatment of Native Indians, or the respect towards lawful foreign ships in the seas during the British Empire? And you expect me to believe that any part of the UK would be granted independence if they voted for it? Ok... and I have wings.

"A machismo I might add based on a dirty war against it's own people"

And who gives you the right to opine on that? BTW, totally out of topic, Argentina is not know for being very machista in Latin America...

"Before the war, most people in the UK knew nothing about the Falklands, but were not about to allow some tinpot dictatorship to effectively hold 1800 UK citizens hostage."

But you blame the Argentine people for political calculations...

"Many here do see the Falklands as a bit of an anachronism, a relic, but while the people who live there, and have ALWAYS lived there, want to remain British, they shall."

Did you really read my prior post. I respect their wish to remain British, they are British. End of story.

"Democracy, will of the people, even with the usual flaws and contradictions, goes back in the UK rather longer than the past 20 years."

You are going off topic here. What are you trying to prove here? That we are inferior? LOL.

"Before Hong Kong is brought up, remember that the treaty that took it from China in the late 19th century always had a hand-back date."

I never would bring up Hong Kong, because even as I don't know the intricacies of the treaty, I do know the people there wanted to become part of China, so that would makes it a different case.
(I hope by now people are getting the picture that I do have a brain, which many here seem to believe is a rare gift in 'argies')  Smile

"If Argentines were so 'unconcerned' about the islands how come the massive demonstrations in favour of the Junta after the invasion? Many of the crowd would have been protesting against the Junta just days before."

HELLO, Earth to GDB... What is the usual reaction of citizens when their country goes to war???

"Nothing like that over here, just families at docks waving off their loved ones, so those in Latin America who still think that the UK saw this unfortunate conflict as some sort of post Imperial dose of viagra, might want to look bit closer to home for irrational expressions of national pride."

You said it, not me.

These responses are simply confirming the fact that some hate Argenitna, most disrespect us, and the rest are just ignorant. I'm not holding my breath for any 'fair' discussion at all.
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Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:07 am

This discussion is going in circles...

To compare the invasion of a sovereign country (Iraq), by a democratic government in the internet and cable TV era to an invasion of some lonely islands by a decrepit dictatorship in an era were there was no cable or internet (and the government misinformed it's citizens), is yet another example of the blind drive of many to make honey out of candle wax.

The re-election of Thatcher, some British party's problem, etc... they are things I don't care about and have nothing to do with anything, really.
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MYT332
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:08 am

some hate Argenitna

Yea well, you nearly killed my dad.

Oh and in respone to the thread title.

Nah.

One Life, Live it.
 
Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:17 am

I nearly killed your dad...

I'm not going to argue the fact I believe your statement is injurous and totally without merit, simply for the reason that your family suffered. I'm sure many argentine veterans have similar fealing towards your dad, unfortunately.

This is really sad...
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Renton_WA
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:29 am

I agree with Derico 100%.
No Argentine has replied to this because a lot of us don't care.

Back then even though I was young I do recall a lot of people including all of my family not agreeing with the war as well as our groups of friends. But who dared go against the Military regime in power at the time.

My family learned earlier on, during the Peron era, not to go against the government. When my grandfather refused to put a picture of Eva Peron (when she died) on the front window of his store and had a disagreement with the authorities over it, that night he was picked up and our family never heard from him again. So believe me that many Argentines did not care about the Falklands then and now.

And unfortunately our family experienced yet another loss when my oldest brother (19 at the time) went to that war and never returned.

A pointless war.

Thanks.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:33 am

Dude you're making an ass out of yourselves, GDB posted some good stuff to which you felt you needed to reply word by word. Read the title of the thread, do you think the UK should give back the Falklands? Simple questions require a simple answer. Quit the Argentine patriotism. You acknowlegded the Falklanders wanted to remain British, end of story isn't it?
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MYT332
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:39 am

Derico, nah he was in the army at the time.

I have a right to my opinion anyway but erm dont cry for me Argentina, the truth is i couldn't care less about you.
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Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:40 am

Renton,

But of course since we are Argentine, how could we possibly know how was the war really perceived? By the replies here, I'm begginning to think the brits are more upset about this than you or me.

Just because some 1000 people were waving the flag in the May Square, to them it means the whole country was for a war by a military junta. Since 100 members of the BNP marched in some british town some years back, I will conclude all Brits are racist then...

They all get so all-mighty about our dictatorships, yet they didn't really experience them, did they? I have to be honest, I for one am sick about discussing Argentina's past. It seems all people want to talk about is some stupid government a quarter century ago. That really annoys me, quite frankly.

I'm sorry about your family's loss, just as I am for MYT332's suffering. I don't allow hatred to get the better part of me.
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Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:44 am

It would be the end of the story if people gave a simple answer and did not embellish them with additional unnecesary (or false) comentaries on Argentina. Just say the falklands should not be returned, and that's it.

Like I said, I don't care about weather they are British or Argentine, so why would I commit myself to an answer??

[Edited 2004-08-04 21:48:27]
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GDB
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:06 am

The point I was making (which for all your bluster, you cannot answer), was that over a million people marched in London against the Iraq war, nothing like that, either pro or anti, happened with the Falklands, except in Argentina.
You know as well as I do that there were mass demonstrations in favour of the very Junta that the day before had been seen as oppressors by many of the crowd.
So yes, lame machismo was stubbed out, and not before time.

So, who had, in the 1970's and early 80's, a vile 'war' against their own civilian population involving mass torture, large scale murder, the 'disappeared' and all the rest?
Britain or Argentina?

Who marched into a territory with no citizens of their own nation living there, against the most basic tenets of the UN charter?
Britain or Argentina?

To think that ANY UK government would allow 1800 of it's citizens to stay under the dubious 'care' of the swaggering, murderous Junta, and their sinister representatives in the shape of Major Patricio Dowling and Lt Alfredo Aziz, both of these officers were implicated in the 'Dirty War'.

So which of the two forces had war criminals, wanted abroad for crimes against foreign citizens in Argentina?

Many in Argentina, especially the military, viewed the UK as a clapped out nation with armed forces they described as 'mercenaries'.
The same officers, who on the islands, mis-treated many of their own troops, denied them food while themselves eating well, and when a proper army arrived, couldn't retreat fast enough, often without telling their men.
Such was the bedrock of the Junta, the implementers of the 'Dirty War' on the ground, many British troops on taking prisoners, felt sorry for the conscripts, but had a total contempt for much of the Argentine officer corps.

Who's saying one group of people is better than the other?
However, you owe your democracy to the defeat in the Falklands of the Junta, it may have come in time anyway, but not as quickly and maybe only after a lot more bloodletting.

Bad an experience for Argentina that the Falklands were, it did the nation a favour, all the bluster and flights of logical fantasy displayed by the Argentine contributors to this thread, won't change that.

The Junta had it coming, if a majority of the Argentine people supported the invasion (which you know perfectly well they did), that's tough.
Learn from it, denying it happened is not a good idea.







 
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Renton_WA
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:28 am

Logical fantasy displayed by the Argentine contributors to this thread, won't change that?

There is no fantasy in what I said GBD and for you to make such a statement is pretty crass and inconsiderate.

Nobody is denying here that it "never happened". Yes there were plenty of Argentines who supported the war, I was just trying to clear things up that my family and my friends that I knew did not agree but did not feel safe to speak out against it.





 
Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:33 am

Yeah, I bluster and am patriotic or so they say here. You have all been neutral and impassionate, on the other hand... :wink: :wink:

The point I was making (which for all your bluster, you cannot answer), was that over a million people marched in London against the Iraq war, nothing like that, either pro or anti, happened with the Falklands, except in Argentina.
You know as well as I do that there were mass demonstrations in favour of the very Junta that the day before had been seen as oppressors by many of the crowd.
So yes, lame machismo was stubbed out, and not before time.


Getting really basic here, is not my problem there were no demonstrations in London. There were in Argentina. You want to have it both ways saying Britain hastened a repressive junta's demise (quite debatable), at the same time arguing there were mass demonstrations without any question of their true validity in that same junta, i.e they could have been orchestrated and the many who opposed the war stayed silent. You can't have it both ways.

So, who had, in the 1970's and early 80's, a vile 'war' against their own civilian population involving mass torture, large scale murder, the 'disappeared' and all the rest?
Britain or Argentina?


So Arsenal, who's doing the "Simple questions require a simple answer. Quit the Argentine patriotism"...

Back to you GDB (after you all stop waving the Union Jack), what does the dictatorship have to do with the original question? Who oppresed countless millions in Africa and Asia, or sold millions of souls as slaves? Britain or Argentina? Don't be silly, GDB.

To think that ANY UK government would allow 1800 of it's citizens to stay under the dubious 'care' of the swaggering, murderous Junta, and their sinister representatives in the shape of Major Patricio Dowling and Lt Alfredo Aziz, both of these officers were implicated in the 'Dirty War'.

AND WHEN DID I EVER ADVOCATED THAT?? Please your welcome to quote me. Since I have said it already countless times, I'll say it again: I respect the kelpers wishes to be British, they are ethnically British (I'd be pissed if they were Argentine). I also understand that the UK would not stand by an invasion. When did I say otherwise?

And I won't respond to any other points (other that in parenthesis, you Brits are telling me you hastened the demise of the junta, I could easily say it delayed it by three months, there is no way of proving your point), since now people here are in imagination mode saying things I did not say. And GDB is giving me examples of the Junta's mistreatment of everyone as if I somehow agreed with them... how ridiculous.

I'll say this, if the tolerance for a different viewpoint shown here by the Brits is an example of their glorious democracy, then I'm not impressed.

ps- Will the UK ever handover the falklands? No. Do I care? No.



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Derico
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:52 am

There's a joke that goes something like this...

- The Bolivians hate Argentina because it grabbed Jujuy.
- The Brazilians hate Argentina because it grabbed half of Iguazu Falls.
- The Chileans hate Argentina because it stole Patagonia and Mendoza AND because they can't stand having been liberated with their help.
(perdon Arcano, that's how the joke goes)
- The Paraguayans hate Argentina because it stole the Gran Chaco AND because they were freed with their help too.
- The Uruguayans hate Argentina because it stole Entre Rios.
- The Peruvians hate Argentina for having been freed with their help.
- The Colombians hate Argentina because the Peruvians hate Argentina.
- The Venezuelans hate Argentina because the Colombians hate Argentina because the Peruvians hate Argentina.
- The Ecuadorians hate Argentina because they heard the Venezuelans hated Argentina because the Colombians hate Argentina because the Peruvians...
- The Mexicans hate Argentina for no apparent reason.
- The rest of Latin America hates Argentina because it has always been so.
-The British hate Argentina for the falklands and the Hand of God.
-The Americans hate Argentina for being the first country to sock them in basketball with NBA ballers... and because the Brits hate Argentina.
-The Canadians hate Argentina to pacify their southern neighbor.
-The Spanish hate Argentina for starting the revolution that marked the end of their American colonies.
-The Italians hate Argentina for being more Italian than they are.
-The French hate Argentina because they hate everyone.

...and who do the Argentines hate?
The Argentines, for not having enough countries hate them.

Why?
They love to be hated...
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gkirk
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RE: Do You Think The UK Will Ever Return The Malvinas

Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:54 am

"Simple, as a second class power, the british must need something to believe they're an important world power, even in their reality as an "non discussing ally" (slave, in other words) of the U.S.A. ."

Hmmm....just a pity that we're probably one of the only countries that could stop the USA if they decided to run amok. I wouldnt class us as a "second class power"
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