Alpha 1
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Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:58 am

To offset the extremists, bitter rant of Matt D, I'll put down my own things I'm proud or pleased about:

1. I have voted for both Democrats and Republicans. Sometime, party affilliation doesn't count for much.

2. I believe in equal rights for others. Not preferences, or quota's, but equal chances for everyone.

3. I believe, further, in equal rights for woman. That doesn't mean I believe in the eviceration of males, as the Andrea Dworkin's of the world want ,but simply equal pay for equal jobs, and respect for the work they do.

4. I don't give a shit about OJ, or the Ramsey's, or the Peterson's.

5. I've taught my children to be tolerant of others, to question things they don't understand or agree with; to treat others with dignity and respect, and to not think they're any better or any worse than anyone else.

6. I don't wear my faith on my sleeve ,use it as a political weapon, or use it to promote hatred, discrimination and fear.

7. I do not believe in gay marriage; I do think gay union should be legal. I do NOT believe that being against gay marriage is a license to call for state-sponsored discrimination and intimidation.

8. I believe we should treat our friends and allies with respect, and with the knowledge that a. we aren't the only ones ever attacked by terrorists, and 2. that our actions, as the great power on earth makes it important that we DO consider the views and recommendations of our friends and allies, and not simply dismiss what they say, and go our own way.

9. I don't agree that illegals should get voting rights, or driving rights, but I think they should be given basic human services if they are in this country.

10, I've never found any satisfaction in wishing anyone else suffer, or is miserable, or is injured in someway, as some people seem to do.

11. I believe in not being self-centered, as the conservative creed preaches. To paraphrase Jesus Christ "whatsoever you do to the least among you, is that which you do unto me." So-called "christians" who have their narrow, intolerant views should think about that sometime.

12. I, as a white male, in the United States, am part of the most privelaged and powerful group of human beings in the world, and I don't see where I have to hold grudges and hatreds against minorities, women, and those who may have a different sexual orientation.

13. I love my country. That doesn't mean I have to agree when we treat others like shit; it doesn't mean I have to agree with or like the current president; that doesn't mean I have to belittle other nations and people because of that love.

14. I believe that our government should be what our founders wanted it to be: "Of the people, by the people, for the people", not "of business, by business, for business", as the current adminstration believes.

15. I don't own a gun, and I never will. Owning somthing that is inherently made to kill isn't something to be proud about.

16. Someone is no less of an American if they don't want to say the word "God" in the pledge: if they want to burn the flag in protest; or if they don't get teary-eyed, or beat their chest, when hearing patriotic songs.

17. I believe that since I'm mortal, that greed and bigorty and hatred diminish who we are, in the limited time we've been given on this earth. You can't take the wealth with you when you die, so why make wealth the driving point of your life.

I think this is a much better way to live than the bitter, selfish and petty way that another memeber posted his beliefs above.

[Edited 2004-08-09 06:06:49]
 
KYIPpilot
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:05 am

Wow! Alpha, if I could put you on my RU list twice, I would. I believe in all of the same values. I wish all of the people in this country could live like this, too. But please don't bash Matt D, he is entitled to his opinion also.  Smile
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
 
Matt D
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:21 am

1. I have voted for both Democrats and Republicans. Sometime, party affilliation doesn't count for much.

In this day and age, that's true. That's why neither the Dems OR the GOP appeals to me anymore.

2. I believe in equal rights for others. Not preferences, or quota's, but equal chances for everyone.

So do I. But when "equality" is defined as quotas, I draw the line. Also, equality cannot be achieved at the expense of others. There will always be haves and have nots.

3. I believe, further, in equal rights for woman. That doesn't mean I believe in the eviceration of males, as the Andrea Dworkin's of the world want ,but simply equal pay for equal jobs, and respect for the work they do.

Again, so do I. But usually, for the Feminists of the world, equality is defined as "same or equal power and/or pay as men, but we still expect only the men to do the dirty work such as combat, lifting boxes, paying the bills, and opening doors."

4. I don't give a shit about OJ, or the Ramsey's, or the Peterson's.

More power to you.

5. I've taught my children to be tolerant of others, to question things they don't understand or agree with; to treat others with dignity and respect, and to not think they're any better or any worse than anyone else.

This is nothing new. Once again, I agree. But when it becomes one sided, such as "We're here. We're queer. You have to accept us, but we don't have to accept you", that's where I draw the line.

6. I don't wear my faith on my sleeve ,use it as a political weapon, or use it to promote hatred, discrimination and fear.

If you think that I go running around screaming Scripture, neither do I. Now when you say "hatred, discrimination, and fear", please elaborate. Is holding someone accountable for their actions-even if it means damaging their "self esteem" defined as hate and fear? Other than the handful of faux, extremist "Christians" (i.e. the ones that blow up abortion clinics), every Christian I've ever met, when they reach an impasse simply walk away. They don't have to resort to violence to get their point(s) across.

7. I do not believe in gay marriage; I do think gay union should be legal. I do NOT believe that being against gay marriage is a license to call for state-sponsored discrimination and intimidation.

Once again, I agree. I think the only reason the Gays are in such an uproar over the word "marriage" is simply a case of sour grapes; they want it. But they can't have it. It's all a semantics game.

8. I believe we should treat our friends and allies with respect, and with the knowledge that a. we aren't the only ones ever attacked by terrorists, and 2. that our actions, as the great power on earth makes it important that we DO consider the views and recommendations of our friends and allies, and not simply dismiss what they say, and go our own way.

Getting some input and having friends is important. But when it comes to our business, we should still make our own decisions.

9. I don't agree that illegals should get voting rights, or driving rights, but I think they should be given basic human services if they are in this country.

I don't think illegals are entitled to ANYTHING except a one way bus ride to their port of entry. What part of illegal is vague? Why SHOULD they be entitled to anything?

10, I've never found any satisfaction in wishing anyone else suffer, or is miserable, or is injured in someway, as some people seem to do.

Shame on you Alpha if you think that I relish in seeing suffering just for the sake of seeing suffering. You think I'm sort of sadist or something? Like the old saying goes: "feed a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you feed him for life. Sure, it's easier and seemingly more compassionate to give him a fish a day, but you really aren't doing him any favors in the long run. And why should I have to pay for it?

11. I believe in not being self-centered, as the conservative creed preaches. To paraphrase Jesus Christ "whatsoever you do to the least among you, is that which you do unto me." So-called "christians" who have their narrow, intolerant views should think about that sometime.

Do you *really*mean intolerant, or simply a non Politically Correct viewpoint?

12. I, as a white male, in the United States, am part of the most privelaged and powerful group of human beings in the world, and I don't see where I have to hold grudges and hatreds against minorities, women, and those who may have a different sexual orientation.

The only people I hold grudges against are the ones that think they can get by or ahead in life at my expense, or by casting nonexistant epithets against me-such as blaming me for slavery. As though I had anything to do with that.

13. I love my country. That doesn't mean I have to agree when we treat others like shit; it doesn't mean I have to agree with or like the current president; that doesn't mean I have to belittle other nations and people because of that love.

I agree.

14. I believe that our government should be what our founders wanted it to be: "Of the people, by the people, for the people", not "of business, by business, for business", as the current adminstration believes.

I also agree, which is another reason I am frothing at the mouth for a viable third party to rise to power.

15. I don't own a gun, and I never will. Owning somthing that is inherently made to kill isn't something to be proud about.

It's like an insurance policy. You hope you never need it. But if I ever do, I'll be damn glad I have it. If there is a burglar in my house, I sure as shit am not waiting for the police to take their sweet time coming here.

16. Someone is no less of an American if they don't want to say the word "God" in the pledge: if they want to burn the flag in protest; or if they don't get teary-eyed, or beat their chest, when hearing patriotic songs.

As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with you. If someone in this country says or does something that I don't agree with, I will still defend their right to say it. But if the country is THAT bad that you find it necessary to spit on the President or burn our flag, then what's stopping you from leaving it?

17. I believe that since I'm mortal, that greed and bigorty and hatred diminish who we are, in the limited time we've been given on this earth. You can't take the wealth with you when you die, so why make wealth the driving point of your life.

Because money is not the sole thing driving my life. I believe I have a right to pursue whatever standard of living I choose. But I think that I should be entitled to keep what I earn. What I get up in arms about is when someone sees what I have, and if they don't have it, they somehow think that I owe them.
 
Klaus
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Alpha 1

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:21 am

So you´re basing your life on sissy ideals, on respecting others and on compassion? Ideas that could inspire others (even (shudder) non-americans!), gain respect and help building a better world?

Come on, dude, everybody knows that that will not fly. You need to hate, despise and reject others first and foremost to state your identity! Doesn´t the US constitution say so as well?

It doesn´t? Oh. Who would have thought...?!  Nuts
 
JAL777
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:29 am

Centrist And Pround

I'm guessing spelling isn't a centrist idea? Big grin
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:56 am

Alpha1,

You continue to amaze me, dude. Sometimes you are SUCH an asshole yet there are those times, such as now, that you make at least some sense. While I do not condone or support everything you said in this post (at least), I do respect the fact that you took the time to post it.  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

Klaus,

Do you think you might just add a slight touch of sarcasm to your future posts? This last one was sooo sentimental and sugary I almost got diabetes from reading it!  Yeah sure

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
 
JeffM
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:59 am

" but I think they should be given basic human services if they are in this country. "

LOL... that is a good one. Such a 'feel good' statement, with no teeth, no definition, etc. etc. etc.


"I'm guessing spelling isn't a centrist idea?"

I can see it now, Alpha and Randy in a spelling bee shoot out. Last one standing wins... LOL...
 
Matt D
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:07 am

It never ceases to amaze me whenever we have a debate that someone always comes along and tries to shoot down the whole argument solely on the basis of one or two grammatical errors.

C'mon people....you can do better than that.

 
Alpha 1
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:22 am

Shame on you Alpha if you think that I relish in seeing suffering just for the sake of seeing suffering.

"37. Sometimes, you just have to let someone wallow in misery for awhile."

Next.

The only people I hold grudges against are the ones that think they can get by or ahead in life at my expense.

You mean, the way us white males have done to so many throughout the history of this country? Like that? Oh, I get it. In other words, it was OK when we stepped all over Indians, women, blacks, hispanics, Asians, etc, but if they DARE step back, and assert themselves, you have a problem with it.



If there is a burglar in my house, I sure as shit am not waiting for the police to take their sweet time coming here.

There's a far greater chance someone will accidentally get hurt or killed by that gun, than there is a burgler picking your house. You want to live in fear, go ahead, I won't.

But if the country is THAT bad that you find it necessary to spit on the President or burn our flag, then what's stopping you from leaving it?

As far as I'm concerned, they're trying to CHANGE it, so why leave?

It never ceases to amaze me whenever we have a debate that someone always comes along and tries to shoot down the whole argument solely on the basis of one or two grammatical errors.

C'mon people....you can do better than that.


No, they can't, MattD, because, unlike yourself, they're bereft of ideas or a coherent thought to support their opinion. I do respect you because you have the balls to say what you do, knowing that someone like me, who believes almost the exact opposite, will fry your ass. Some others, whom I shall not name, on BOTH sides of the spectrum, don't have such stones between their legs.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:54 am

Alpha, as a white man living in a white suburb of a mostly black economically struggling city, there is nothing centrist about you. You are as hard core right wing as they come.

Instead of professing liberal ideals from the safety of a suburban basement in a white CLE enclave, go and do some volunteer work in the poor hoods of CLE; invite a black orphan to spend the summer with your family; provide counselling to poor black teenagers. That's what being a centrist is all about.

Until you do any of this, there is nothing liberal or centrist about you. You're as right wing as they come.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:17 pm

Alpha, as a white man living in a white suburb of a mostly black economically struggling city, there is nothing centrist about you

1. The city I live in isn't considered a 'burb of Cleveland.

2. It's 55% black. The city I was born in, and lived in for the first 16 years of my life, was bout 70% black. You don't know a fucking thing about where I live, or what I grew up with.

And I wouldn't expect someone so far out to the right, like yoruself, or so far to the left, like Roy or Dc10guy, to even have a clue to what a centrist is.

Instead of professing liberal ideals from the safety of a suburban basement/

I don't have a basement. We live in a split-level home. Going to keep making a total arse out of yourself?

You're as right wing as they come.

I guess the answer to my last question would be a big no.
 
B2707SST
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:33 pm

5. I've taught my children to be tolerant of others, to question things they don't understand or agree with; to treat others with dignity and respect, and to not think they're any better or any worse than anyone else.

----

[Alpha 1 about Matt D's list] All those who agree with him: I don't see how you really consider yourself human beings. You're self-centered, pitiless, merciless, cowardly, bitter people.... You're just as inhuman as they are.


I agree with many of the points on Alpha 1's list, including #5, but does anyone else see a contradiction here?

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Centrist And Pround

Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:52 pm

I don't see a contradiciton at all. I call a spade a spade. I don't see any problem with that.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:22 pm

Ahem, Alpha1, I point you to this thread, you little thief!  Wink/being sarcastic

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/488677

But at least it's nice to know I'm not alone.

But beware...dc10guy will claim you don't have a spine, jcs17 will say you're out for RR, and BN747 will call you a racist anyway. And Indianguy...well, he's in a whole different ballgame.  Big thumbs up

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
NWA742
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:28 pm

There's a far greater chance someone will accidentally get hurt or killed by that gun, than there is a burgler picking your house.

It's not so simple, Alpha 1.

Guns in the house are only dangerous if those in the house are irresponsible. 100% of all accidental gun shootings in the home are due to irresponsibility and nothing else.

Having a gun in the home is not the problem, irresponsible gun ownership is the problem.

It's the same with automobiles and aircraft. Irresponsible drivers kill people on the road in America every single day. Irresponsible pilots kill people as well. See what I'm getting at?

You want to live in fear, go ahead, I won't.

Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you live in fear.........what you said probably applies to about .0001% of gun owners.

Aside from hobbies and sports, I see gun ownership as a further step in the responsibility for the safety of your family



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:39 pm

"not "of business, by business, for business", as the current adminstration believes.
"

WTF??? Have you been asleep during the last few administrations? This is not a new thing or specific to this administration. Centrist my arse!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JeffM
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:51 pm

"..knowing that someone like me, who believes almost the exact opposite, will fry your ass.."

LOL... a legend in your own mind..

Nothing like a ticket agent with 'stones' between his legs is there...?

Centrist=claiming to have been on the winning side all along, when others no better....

Matt, you are taking this stuff too seriously.
 
BN747
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:58 pm

B4E:BN747 will call you a racist anyway.

Hmmm.. okay, I'll bite... Alpha's a racist. (yeah right)!  Insane

Except he's 'a racist you (B4E) could learn a thing or two from... l


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:00 pm

"There's a far greater chance someone will accidentally get hurt or killed by that gun, than there is a burgler picking your house. You want to live in fear, go ahead, I won't."

There is a far greater chance of a child drowning in a bucket of water than getting killed by a gun.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:14 pm

2. I believe in equal rights for others. Not preferences, or quota's, but equal chances for everyone.

That's what Alpha1 said BN...he doesn't like quotas...ie Affirmative Action.

Get your head out of your ass and actually prove that I'm a racist...

Until then, an apology from you is in order.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
jcs17
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:22 pm

Alpha, for you to call yourself a centrist is like Indianguy calling himself pro-American. Seriously, do you realize how much hatred and vitriol you spew at not just Bush, but the entire Republican party platforms on a daily basis? I think you need to look in the mirror and realize that you are a Democrat and to call yourself a 'centrist' is absolutely false.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
BN747
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:46 pm

Alpha can speak for himself? He doesn't need you to translate for him.

I've seen his post and know of his awareness of the state of the nation as far race relations are concerned.

And oh yeah, B4E...and I owe you 'SQUAT!'

BN747

"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:50 pm

Alpha can speak for himself? He doesn't need you to translate for him.

I've seen his post and know of his awareness of the state of the nation as far race relations are concerned.


And yet you know nothing of others' views. I'm not speaking for him, I'm pointing out something to you since you have selective reading skills.

And oh yeah, B4E...and I owe you 'SQUAT!'

You have failed to prove that I'm racist. Yet you continue to slander me. Yes, you DO owe me an apology.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
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yyz717
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:57 pm

1. The city I live in isn't considered a 'burb of Cleveland.

Rabbiting on about left-wing causes from the comfort of your split-level house on anet after your kids are in bed does not make you a centrist.

Centrism or liberalism is determined by actions, not hollow words from the comfort of a white suburb.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
diamond
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:15 pm

White suburb?

Comfort of your split-level house?

Kids in bed?


It doesn't make any difference where anyone lives. It doesn't make any difference what 'color' their neighborhood is. It doesn't matter whether a house has several levels or one level.

Several of the above posts REEK of people resenting the rather modest descriptions of how someone lives - and are trying to characterize it as elitist.

If you want to turn this thread into a discussion about how truly wealthy people live - AND VOTE - then go ahead. But aside from the Hollywood community, you're going to be pointing your fingers and the elite within your own Republican party.

The GOP has attempted to make a big deal out of Kerry's wealth. But how many THOUSANDS of people who are WEALTHIER than Kerry are voting Republican? Many - if not most of them.

I cannot believe that someone would point out a split-level house in the suburbs of Cleveland, and use it to characterize the way that someone thinks, or the way that they view life.

Just stupid.





Blank.
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:02 pm

Guns in the house are only dangerous if those in the house are irresponsible. 100% of all accidental gun shootings in the home are due to irresponsibility and nothing else.

And again, even with responsible people, accidents happen, and the chance of that happeneing are far greater than some stray burgler picking your house. The tradeoff-in my estimation-isn't worth the trouble.

Aside from hobbies and sports, I see gun ownership as a further step in the responsibility for the safety of your family.

I have no problem with collectors or hunters, but as for protecting my family, I don't see a gun doing that. I really don't. The chances of me being robbed, in a middle-class neighborhood that I live in, are so small, it's not worth having something that could do more harm accidentally in the house. Keep you guns. I have no desire to ever have one.

And Diamond-btw, I'm glad you're up and around and feeling better...I said my little prayer for your recovery-the person you're talking about always does that, because he's bereft of real ideas, and real responses, so he stoops to try and shape what he thinks he knows about how I live, which, as we've seen, is far from what the reality is. He's a sad soul, so let him rave.
 
QIguy24
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:13 pm

I see gun ownership as a further step in the responsibility for the safety of your family.

This is the biggest BS I have ever heard. I mean come one man. You are from the one of the greatest and most civilized countries in the world. And that country is the United States of America. Not Johannesburg!

We have burglars in Europe too. But we don't need guns to protect our selves. The burglars aren't there to hurt you. They just want to steal. And of course that is wrong. But shooting a burglar doesn't justify anything.
 
luisca
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:29 am

The GOP has attempted to make a big deal out of Kerry's wealth. But how many THOUSANDS of people who are WEALTHIER than Kerry are voting Republican? Many - if not most of them.

Since when did the Class Struggle become a platform of the Democratic party? I am sick of their divisionism. A lot of ordinary people vote republican, otherwise we wouldnt have won in 2000
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:31 am

"And again, even with responsible people, [gun] accidents happen"

They're exceedingly rare compared to, say, pool drownings.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Guest

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:40 am

Since when did the Class Struggle become a platform of the Democratic party? I am sick of their divisionism. A lot of ordinary people vote republican, otherwise we wouldnt have won in 2000

Um, you didn't win the election in 2000, chief.

But hey...

B
 
B747forlife
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:54 am

NonRevKing, that's where you're wrong. Well, technically you're right because Bush won the election, not Luisca. According to the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, Bush received 271 votes of a required 270 to become president.

Despite the Supreme Court decision, counts done by news agencies after the election was (finally) over showed that Bush won Florida by over 500 votes.

Oh wait, you're still bitter over something thats impossible to change. I forgot.

-Nick
 
NWA742
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:15 am

the chance of that happeneing are far greater than some stray burgler picking your house.

Far greater? Bull. The chances of a gun accident in the home with responsible gun owners is VERY slim.

as for protecting my family, I don't see a gun doing that

If your house gets broken into by dangerous robbers looking to harm you and your family and take your things, you better see damn well that a gun would protect you.

The chances of me being robbed, in a middle-class neighborhood that I live in, are so small, it's not worth having something that could do more harm accidentally in the house.

Just because there's almost no chance you'll get robbed doesn't mean it won't happen. Famous last words: "Oh that's not gonna happen, don't worry about it."

If you were responsible with a gun, then you shouldn't worry about having an accident, because it poses about the same risk to you and your family as going out in the family car for an ice cream cone. Nothing will stop deadly accidents from occuring, so there's no reason guns should be singled out in this area from everything else.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Guest

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:31 am

B747forlife:

Bitter? No, far from it. I'm quite enjoying the man you right wingers fought so hard for to get in office make a complete ass of himself. He makes you guys look less and less credible. Which is good for us.

I don't enjoy the fact that he and his cronies are destroying the reputation of this great country.

I don't need you to preach to me about the constitution, I know how it works. However, what our local Panamanian dictator stated is not entirely correct. The FACT remains, GWB lost the popular vote. That's what I was referring to, and you know it.

B
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:36 am

The FACT remains, GWB lost the popular vote.

The FACT remains, GWB won the election.

That's what I was referring to, and you know it.

Here's what you said:

Um, you didn't win the election in 2000, chief.

Looks like you're referring to the election and not the popular vote. Popular vote is not the only part of our election.



-NWA742

[Edited 2004-08-09 21:38:08]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Guest

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:17 am

For God's sake, you guys are truly pathetic. Classic right wingers, refuse to admit when one of their own is wrong, instead try and muddy up the issue. You guys know exactly what I'm talking about, but since some of you LOVE splitting hairs...

GWB lost the general election (aka the popular vote) in 2000. More people voted for Gore. GWB won the electoral college...Unfortunatly.

Can't wait to see how you can turn those facts around...  Insane

B
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:27 am

"GWB lost the general election (aka the popular vote) in 2000. More people voted for Gore. GWB won the electoral college...Unfortunatly.
"

Fair enough. However, this is not what you said before, we had no idea "what you meant" when you said [Bush] "didn't win the election in 2000". The President is decided by the electoral college, so Bush won plain and simple.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Guest

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:42 am

we had no idea "what you meant"

Wow, and here I was giving you guys credit for being intelligent.

Anyway, this is such an awesome post by Alpha1, and sums up my thoughts and beliefs so nicely, that I'm not going to ruin it with this retarded little argument.

B
 
dvk
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:18 am

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:46 am

But we don't really know if W won the electoral vote. The Supreme Court elected W president 5-4 .
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:53 am

"Wow, and here I was giving you guys credit for being intelligent."

We are, but we're not mind readers. We're sorry we didn't know that by "election" you didn't mean the ELECTION but actually the popular vote. Our bad.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:05 am

GWB lost the general election (aka the popular vote) in 2000. More people voted for Gore. GWB won the electoral college...Unfortunatly.

More people voted for someone other than Clinton every time he was elected President. So what. The President is elected by the electoral college as determined by the US constitution as amended. Period end of story.

 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:09 am

Period end of story.

It should be that way, N6376m, but some people will never let it go. They just can't deal with the fact that their party lost, and they will forever bitch about it.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
Guest

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:16 am

They just can't deal with the fact that their party lost, and they will forever bitch about it.

Sums up nicely my thoughts on the right's reaction to Clinton's two terms.

But hey...

B
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:23 am

" ... Since when did the Class Struggle become a platform of the Democratic party? I am sick of their divisionism. A lot of ordinary people vote republican, otherwise we wouldnt have won in 2000 ... "
Luisca - You could not have missed my point any farther than you did. I would try to re-explain it, but I am beginning to see that you 'misunderstand' things on purpose.

" ... GWB lost the general election (aka the popular vote) in 2000. More people voted for Gore. GWB won the electoral college...Unfortunatly[sic] ...
NonRevKing - GWB did not 'win' the Electoral vote. It was 'given' to him in a decision made by the Supreme Court. As a result of corruption in Florida in 2000 and 2004, the U.S. Presidential Election is now being observed by an International Election Monitoring Committee, headed by the U.N.

" ... And Diamond-btw, I'm glad you're up and around and feeling better...I said my little prayer for your recovery ... "
Alpha - Thanks for the thought and for the prayer. I am not yet up and around, and I'm still confined to bed until at least Friday. But I am awake a few more hours per day and so you've seen me post a few things on here lately. I hope to be 'mentally' back to normal in about 10 days. Physically it's going to take a few months. All in all, I was pretty lucky.




Blank.
 
Guest

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:29 am

Very good point D-man. Also like to add my cheers to see you're feeling better  Big thumbs up

B
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
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RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:20 am

"As a result of corruption in Florida in 2000 and 2004, the U.S. Presidential Election is now being observed by an International Election Monitoring Committee, headed by the U.N.
"

As a result of corruption in a Dade County election, we have the infamous list that has created issues ever since both in 2000 and '04.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
B2707SST
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:28 am

It was 'given' to him in a decision made by the Supreme Court

Bush won every single vote count ever conducted in Florida: the initial machine count, the first machine recount, the second machine recount, the county-by-county manual recounts, and two independent media recounts using virtually any standard. Using Gore's recount standard statewide, Bush would have gained another 200+ votes.

The US Supreme Court, by a vote of 7-2, stopped the Florida Supreme Court from its wholesale rewriting of Florida election law, which could not have been considered "interpretation" by any reasonable person. The Florida Supreme Court appropriated to itself the power to write election law, thereby violating the US Constitution's delegation of that power to the state legislatures; and the arbitrary, standardless, and unprecedented manual hand counts conducted according to the (partisan?) whims of each county's election board violated Floridians' right to equal protection.

As a result of corruption in Florida in 2000 and 2004, the U.S. Presidential Election is now being observed by an International Election Monitoring Committee, headed by the U.N.

The election monitors are here because the US is a member of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), and according to the 1990 OSCE treaty, member states send observers to each others' elections. It is not a UN body and, despite the efforts of some Congressional Democrats to spin it this way, was not invited because of the Florida recount.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2004-08-10 00:29:22]
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:34 am

B2707sst -

Your facts are wrong. Way wrong. Not even close.


The count and recount statement above is wrong.

The Supreme Court decision is laid out incorrectly and is misleading.

And you obviously have not read the news in the last 48 hours about the 'precedent-setting' election observers that will be watching our process this time - for the very first time.
Blank.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:00 am

"Your facts are wrong. Way wrong. Not even close.
The count and recount statement above is wrong."

Care to explain? There's an interesting little widget at the New York Times site that calculates just about any recount scenario and guess what--most of them still show Bush as the winner.

http://www.nytimes.com/images/2001/11/12/politics/recount/
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:32 am


Statewide recount

If a statewide recount of all disqualified ballots was undertaken using the standards each county’s election officials have said they would use in a recount.

Winner: Al Gore

Margin Pct. of total votes: 0.0028%

votes: +171



Dimple with other dimples

If a statewide recount were conducted of all the disqualified ballots containing dimpled punch-card votes if there were dimples on the rest of the ballot.

Winner: Al Gore

Margin Pct. of total votes: 0.0007%

votes: +42



Conditions: Observer agreement Optical-scan ballots Punch-card ballots
At least two agree Any marks indicating choice Full punches

Winner Margin Pct. of total votes: Al Gore +424 0.0069%


Observer agreement Optical-scan ballots Punch-card ballots
At least two agree Any marks indicating choice Three-corners detached

Winner Margin Pct. of total votes: Al Gore +216 0.0035%


Observer agreement Optical-scan ballots Punch-card ballots
At least two agree Any marks indicating choice Two-corners

Winner Margin Pct. of total votes: Al Gore +105 0.0017%


Observer agreement Optical-scan ballots Punch-card ballots
At least two agree Any marks indicating choice One-corner detached

Winner Margin Pct. of total votes: Al Gore +60 0.0010%


Observer agreement Optical-scan ballots Punch-card ballots
At least two agree Any marks indicating choice Dimples with sunlight

Winner Margin Pct. of total votes: Al Gore +148 0.0024%


Observer agreement Optical-scan ballots Punch-card ballots
At least two agree Any marks indicating choice Dimples

Winner Margin Pct. of total votes: Al Gore +107 0.0017%





Using the link provided by MaverickM11 in reply #47 - here are eight scenarios in which Gore "won" the election.

This is not exactly a group of far-fetched recount scenarios. They take into account every way in which a ballot could have been miscounted or ruled ineligible.

Before anyone starts crying that I am some Democrat that hasn't gotten over the 2000 election - don't waste your time. I'm over it as much as you are. However, I'm not going to let people tell half-truths and outright lies to re-write history. For anyone to paint a picture of fairness and innocence over Florida in 2000 is just dishonest. It's a lie and you know it.



Blank.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15222
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Centrist And Proud

Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:54 am

"However, I'm not going to let people tell half-truths and outright lies to re-write history"

But you just did. You combined two results from divergent sets of data without putting either into context. The first 2 scenarios are the type of recount that did or did not take place; the next 6 scenarios are once a recount did take place, what kind of vote evidence would be acceptable. In the latter version, there are 24 possible outcomes and I think 7 of them show Gore winning. However this is a bit of a back of the napkin estimate that doesn't mean much; what this all proves is that this election, in the form it took, was an absolute tie, that both parties tried to use to their advantage. I personally feel the Democrats were shameless in the way they manipulated the data, selectively counted, and tried to play the race card but that's a whole 'nother thread.

Finally:

Conditions: Florida Supreme Court recount
If the U.S. had not stopped the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court.

Results: Winner Margin Pct. of total votes
George W. Bush +493 votes 0.0080%

That's one of the higher if not highest winning margins; when you consider that most polls have an error margin of +/- 3%, it becomes clear that this election was an all out tie. No one won the popular vote.


[Edited 2004-08-10 01:57:56]
E pur si muove -Galileo

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