TACAA320
Topic Author
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:42 pm

Next Sunday maybe define the future of Venezuela. Their people must decide about Hugo Chavez to stay or to go.

I know that this topic has been treated before but their importance is big, among many other thing, because the next election process in the U.S. and the rough relations Bush-Chavez.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
ussherd
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:21 pm

If I were in Venezuela I'd be voting for Chávez to go. No doubt about it.

I have to admit that when Chávez came to power I had hoped that things in Venezuela would change for the better. While I never thought that the the man himself had the qualities to be a good president, I'd hoped that he'd have the sense to surround himself with good people who could help in the governance of the country. Well... that certainly didn't happen!

At the same time, I don't believe that getting rid of Chávez will cure the country's woes. Likely, we'll just end up where we were before the 'Revolución Blovariana', with the old corrupt & nepotistic political elite back in office, looking after their own interests while Venezuela stagnates. Whatever happens, Chávez will leave a legacy of inter-class conflict that may linger for years to come.

...... evidently, I'm not in a very positive mood today  Sad
Cada loco con su tema...
 
TACAA320
Topic Author
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:28 pm

Ussherd

Everybody wants the best for Venezuela.

Let's trust in Democracy and Venezuelan voters.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:31 am

Who is the alternative?
Does anyone really believe they could do better?

" Whatever happens, Chávez will leave a legacy of inter-class conflict that may linger for years to come."
While Chávez' policies were sometimes debatable I think that whoever will succeed him will probably cause even more grave class conflicts. Ever wondered why the economic elites tried a coup few years ago? They had a hard time under Chávez.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
ussherd
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:34 am

Ever wondered why the economic elites tried a coup few years ago? They had a hard time under Chávez.

The economic elites in Venezuela are as rich as they ever were, and always will be. Certainly, having Chávez in power didn't suit them at all, and they want to see Chávez removed from power simply because he interferes with their interests; namely, the acquisition of more and more wealth. This is clearly seen in the attitude of the higherarchy in PDVSA (the state oil company), who clearly think of the company as their own personal money making machine. The losers are the poor, who are poorer than they ever were; and the once fairly sizable middle class, who now see themselves sliding into poverty. Over the past few years I've noticed the development of very real feeling of resentment against people who have managed to achieve a measure of prosperity. I'm not talking about the rich elites; I’m talking about the professional classes, people who have gone to university, have managed to find a good job and have worked hard to get ahead. The bulk of the (poor) population now regards this middle class with resentment; the thinking being that, because they have prospered, they must be capitalist parasites who have acquired wealth at the expense of the poor. The problem is further compounded by the fact that a sizable proportion of small businesses and large farms are in the hands of immigrants or first generation Venezuelans. So... not only have the poor of Venezuela been raped by evil capitalists… they have been raped by evil, foreign, imperialist capitalists. You get the picture?! That’s the legacy that I'm talking about… an ingrained ‘us against them’ mentality that has the potential to turn things very ugly.

As to who could replace Chávez… I really don’t know. I don’t think the opposition have a charismatic leader who would be capable of (a) uniting the various anti-Chávez factions who make up the opposition, and (b) uniting the country as a whole. Having said that, I do think that getting rid of Chávez is a must. While the traditional political elites were corrupt to the core, they at least knew what they were doing. Chávez and his cronies are not only corrupt in equal measure, but are completely inept as well.

Cada loco con su tema...
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:21 am

Su hora de liberacion esta cerca.

The time of your liberation is close

I am praying that Sunday will be the end of the Chavez Dictatorsrhip
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:01 am

"That?s the legacy that I'm talking about? an ingrained ?us against them? mentality that has the potential to turn things very ugly."

My prediction is things will turn ugly, and not only in Venezuela.  Sad

Another thing I'd like to ask: is there something like a "moderate" opposition in sight? I mean those who tried the failed coup de etat were hardline capitalists from the far right I was told, and I bet they are eager to fill the power gap quickly if Chavez is removed from power.

Y Luisca esta loco, como siempre. *shaking head*
After all, IF the Venezuelians decide to remove Chávez they do so at their own will and with their own power, right?
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:53 am

someone on the left of US politics sent me an email yesterday about something like $60m of US taxpayers money being spent here to bring down Chavez.

This is shameful if true. Why should the US want to spend their tax dollars bringing down an elected government? Do those US taxpayers care that their hard earned bucks are being spent to deny democracy? Venezuela elected Chavez. US tax dollars are being used to unseat Chavez. Is that right?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:41 pm

"Why should the US want to spend their tax dollars bringing down an elected government?"

Well, it's not the US in general, but the guys who run the country at the moment. The conservatives of Venezuela are the ones running most of the oil industry, AFAIK, and the oil industry of Venezuela has close ties with the oil industry of the US, and the .... you go figure.

I haven't heard of those $60m yet, but it's an open secret that the US gov and it's secret services played a big role in the failed coup in 2002.

Nevertheless it will be interesting how the Venezuelians will decide today.
Although I am a bit sceptical of the legitimacy of a recall vote of a (twice) democratically elected head of state, wether one likes him or not.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
ussherd
Posts: 322
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:26 pm

According to the CNE (electoral council), the preliminary results show 51% of voters in favour of Chávez and 41% against. These results still have to be validated, but it looks like Chávez is staying.
Cada loco con su tema...
 
TACAA320
Topic Author
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Only Three Days For Venezuelan Referendum

Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:44 pm

Really sad results for the Venezuelan opposition.

I hope the best for Venezuela, but unfortunately don't predict any good by the moment.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MrHMSH, sovietjet, Thunderboltdrgn, vikkyvik and 14 guests