sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
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Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:31 pm

Seems the man has more then 7 lives!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3569012.stm

Since 1998 he survived two presidential elections, six referendums and came back to power after a US supported coup which ousted him for 48 hrs.

I think we can now say without doubt he truly is an elected leader, so can the US and the right wing coalition in Venezuela stop trying to get him out of power and let the man get on with his work?
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:42 pm

It's a big Fraude!! At least that's what the news here say...

KL911
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:02 pm

The international monitors haven´t complained as of now...
 
Klaus
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:37 pm

Welll... the response doesn´t actually contribute any information; It doesn´t rebuke any of the original article´s points. It apparently generalizes from individual incidents which are not explained in any way.

It sounds a lot like a rant by a frustrated opposition politician. I´d like a little more information, please!
 
LHSebi
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:49 pm

It apparently generalizes from individual incidents which are not explained in any way.

I'm sorry, I suppose you need to have followed the situation in Venezuela more closely to completely understand the article/response. I am not going to explain every incident in detail, but I am sure you can find lots of information on the net. If you just read up on some of the news articles from the coup in late April 2002, you will find many of these incidents clarified. Hope this helps!

Sebastian

Edit: wrong html tags

[Edited 2004-08-16 16:49:37]
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
luisca
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:34 am

Klaus Please dont speak what you dont know, He is a Dictator, he has ordered military to SHOOT protesters. He has turned Venezuela into a Castro Type Communist dictatorship, I have Family in Venezuela, they are not "rich elite" but they think this man is INSANE. He created a special branch of the army that serves only him, And news over here is calling it a Fraud.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
LHSebi
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:35 am

Thank you Luisca  Smile

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
b757300
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:40 am

It is so nice to see the communists and socialists on this site come out and support a murderous dictator. I'll say one thing for the left and that is they're consistent in who they support.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
ussherd
Posts: 322
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:53 am

Another long post, and only half of what I have to say. Don't get me started on what's wrong with Venezuela!

I'm disappointed by the results of the referendum, but if the results are deemed valid by the international observers, the opposition now has no option other than to shut up and accept the inevitable. My desire to see Chávez ousted has nothing to do with political or social ideology - it's simply based on the fact that, under Chávez, the Venezuelan economy has gone from bad to worse. The poor and middle class folk are worse off than ever; and as for the rich elites, I can't say anything about them (as I’m not personally acquainted with any of that class!), but I imagine that they’re as rich as ever. What is stated in the link below rings true for me, as it echoes what I myself have seen, and what family and friends in Venezuela are telling me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4413284,00.html

A few points from the article:

* The economy shrank 9 percent last year and hasn't grown since 2001.
* Per capita income was $5,380 from 1990 to 2002 - below that of neighbouring Colombia, Panama and the Dominican Republic.
* Unemployment is 15 percent, according to government statistics, compared with 11 percent in 1998.
* More than half of adult Venezuelans lack formal employment, eking out livings as maids, cabbies or street peddlers.
* Of more than 11,000 factories operating in 1999, fewer than 5,000 were still open in 2003, according to Venezuela's leading industry chamber, Conindustria
* Inflation is expected to reach 25 percent in 2004; the highest in Latin America.

Add to this the government’s efforts to limit the freedom of the press and the repeated warnings from international bodies regarding the erosion of the independence of the various branches of the government.

The president has spent millions on far-reaching social 'missions', including a nationwide literacy program, scholarships to help people finish high school, state-run bargain supermarkets and Cuban doctors sent to work in slums. These programmes have had a positive impact on their lives, so it's understandable that the poor should vote for Chávez - they're more concerned with their daily needs rather than in the big picture. The fact that Chávez hasn't succeeded in improving the economic lot of the average Venezuelan is almost invariably blamed on the opposition, who "won't let the president do his job".

The whole subject of Venezuelan politics depresses me. The opposition is certainly more politically and economically savvy than Chávez and his MVR-istas, but they're no more trustworthy and no less corrupt than the current administration. With me, it's more a case of wanting to go back to the devil Venezuela knew before... because there's no knowing what this new devil may do next.

In all honesty, I feel that I'm incredibly lucky to have the option of not living in Venezuela.



[Edited 2004-08-16 18:02:31]
Cada loco con su tema...
 
LHSebi
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:59 am

In all honesty, I feel that I'm incredibly lucky to have the option of not living in Venezuela.

Amen to that! My family and I were very lucky that we left at the time we did, just before things really started to mess up!

Doesn't it strike you as a strange coincidence, that the number of votes needed to get rid of him was 3.76 million, and the "preliminary" votes were 3,576,517...mighty close, or?

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
ussherd
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:07 am

Doesn't it strike you as a strange coincidence, that the number of votes needed to get rid of him was 3.76 million, and the "preliminary" votes were 3,576,517...mighty close, or?

Very peculiar indeed!

... I'll be on the phone with my family tonight, to hear the news from the battle front, so to speak.
Cada loco con su tema...
 
LHSebi
Posts: 1007
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:12 am

Please let me (us) know if there is anything! Unfortunately (well, fortunately, but you know...) I don't have any close relatives there at the moment that can report! Thanks!

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
luisca
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:38 am

I can tell you that the richer are poorer, the middle are poorer, and the poor are poorer since Chavez, the only one that is richer is the Military, they are the new ELITE of the Country. Family in Venezuela says everybody is talking about Fraud in Venezuela
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:13 am

I've lived in Caracas for some time, although not as long as others on this board, but I haven't experienced the 'dictatorial regime' others seem to be talking about.


Luisca:

"He is a Dictator, he has ordered military to SHOOT protesters."

First, he's been democratically elected a couple of times. Second, any PROOF of him shooting protesters?

"He has turned Venezuela into a Castro Type Communist dictatorship"

Again, he won the democratical elections several times. Rather than supporting the rich and richer, he supports the Poor and Poorer. That's not Communism, Luisca. You might not like it, that doesn't mean that it necessarily is Communism!

"I have Family in Venezuela, they are not "rich elite" but they think this man is INSANE"

I wonder what your family thinks about you...

"And news over here is calling it a Fraud."

Let me guess.... Fox News?


B757300:

"It is so nice to see the communists and socialists on this site come out and support a murderous dictator. "

... and it is so nice to see the ultra-rightwing on this site call every democratically elected and re-elected president a murderous dictator (without providing any credible link) for the mere fact that he or she doesn't like him.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:22 am

"And news over here is calling it a Fraud."

Let me guess.... Fox News?



Telemetro, RPC, TVN, all local news in Panama.

He may be elected, but he does not have popular leadership NOW, he is giving the military all the power of the country. He is NOT helping the Poor. I have no problem with socialist Presidents, LULA for example, he is a great leader, I may not believe his Ideology, but I respect him, becouse he does not Impose his beliefs and he Is working for EVERYBODY.

Chavez is doing the same thing to Venezuela that Torrijos did to Panama, Torrijos preceded Noriega in Panama, he gave the military so much power that they had everything and people had nothing. I had to flee Panama in 1989 becouse of Noriega so dont you ever DARE say that I do not know what I am talking about. Have you ever lived in a dictatorship? I was SHOT at at age 4!. We were spayed with acid water, We were held at gunpoint when we were eating in a restaurant by the military, we had to be evacuated by the US military in 1989 and move to Grand Cayman, we lost EVERYTHING. We later moved to the US and lived their for a few years. We came back to Panama and in just 14 years of democracy the differance is amaizing.

[Edited 2004-08-16 19:34:11]
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
JUANR
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:23 am

This is getting mad, a left wing dictator in Venezuela while right here in Colombia we are on our way to a right wing civil dictatorial regime!!


Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
LHSebi
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:36 am

Schoenorama,
By the frankly quite ignorant comments you made there, I can only assume you lived there back before Chavez became what he is today. Unless you have been there to witness it, don't say such things...

Sebastian

P.S. Luisca, sorry to hear about your past. I hope it's better now!  Smile
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
777236ER
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:44 am

It is so nice to see the communists and socialists on this site come out and support a murderous dictator. I'll say one thing for the left and that is they're consistent in who they support.

So now the truth comes out, B757300 only supports democracy when he thinks its the right result.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
luisca
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:47 am

Thanks sebastian, It is much better, we came back and started a company with the compensation we got. one more thing, I just saw that Carter said that he believed that the results were correct, but I have to say one thing about that man. He signed back in 1978 the Canal Treaty, he signed it with Torrijos, if he was the true humanitarian he claims to be he wouldnt have signed this treaty with a brutal dictator, giving him more power than he already had. I have absolutly no respect for the man becouse of this.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
LHSebi
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:50 am

Thats good to hear.

As for Carter, I am also following the happenings on eluniversal.com, and apparently there are people that don't trust the results. And people that are involved in the counting. They are questioning the method of counting the votes. Apparently, it could be that they didn't actually use the machines which were earlier proven to be unmanipulable (supposedly). http://www.eluniversal.com/

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:52 am

See, this is the way to do it. If the people of Venezuela did not want him as their elected leader, they'd have booted him. But still, outsiders will cry foul and demand that he go.

The international monitors haven´t complained as of now...

Which monitors Klaus? The same ones that praised the Florida polls as being free and fair?
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:23 am

Mr. Carter has endorsed the election result. Many may not be happy with that crazy person in power, but for the forseable future seems like Venezula is stuck with him.
Step into my office, baby
 
Southamerica
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Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:32 am

while right here in Colombia we are on our way to a right wing civil dictatorial regime!!

With which the inmense majority of the country is absolutely happy and support (except of course those politicians who won't see their personal interests satisfied with the re-election, and two or three dumbasses who don't have the foggiest idea of what their saying).

Slight difference huh?


SOUTHAMERICA
 
JUANR
Posts: 837
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RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:28 am

Slight difference huh?

Not at all, a true democratic regime do not censor their oponents opinion as it is happening on both Colombia and Venezuela. In our country perhaps the president has a lot of support in larger areas of the people, however calling everyone who disagrees with the goverment "narco-terrorist" is not too democratic, is it?

Perhaps some rich people can now travel through our highways to their farms in the lower lands but it takes more than that to provide us with real peace, a subject in which our current goverment is not going well, not even talk about the monologue that they have started with the paramilitary groups.

Also not to mention that from day 1 the president started an agressive political and publicitary campain and that he wants to rule the country as it was his own farm.

Do I need to say more?

But to stay in the topic, my point was to state that we are facing a dark future in this region with a right wing Colombia that support 100% the US and a left wing Venezuela that provides support to COlombian guerrillas.

God help us.

Juan
SKBO


Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2302
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:06 am

Not at all, a true democratic regime do not censor their oponents opinion as it is happening on both Colombia and Venezuela.

And that's why the press (who is almost always biased) shows equally those who support the government, and those who don't, as well as the different polls and surveys that are constantly done all throughout the country.

Perhaps some rich people can now travel through our highways to their farms in the lower lands

Are you kidding me? Tell me (in millions) how many people has travelled by roads each high-season since Uribe is leading the country. Could you do that with your buddy Pastrana? Yeah, but at three blocks from your house you would already be kidnapped while Pastrana was travelling to Madrid to buy a dress for his wife.


but it takes more than that to provide us with real peace, a subject in which our current goverment is not going well

Of course, impossible that you were so high in the air to believe that in 2 years we would end a 40 year deep conflict. You know that it's impossible, everybody knows that, that's why the inmense majority of the people is supporting the decision to give him the time he needs.


Also not to mention that from day 1 the president started an agressive political and publicitary campain and that he wants to rule the country as it was his own farm.

Again, if this farm-administration has given better results than the little-delicate-velvet-cushin administration of Pastrana, and if finally someone has had the pants and balls to look to the guerillas straight to the eyes, then way to go !

Look, don't try to make-up what reallity shows, and don't try to make more dramatic the few mistakes that the administration has. Go walking to downtown Bogota and ask many people of different social conditions what they think of the government (specifically the president) and you'll see what the answers are. People have faith, and you know it, maybe your obsessive biasment and hatred towards certain people does not allow you to see the obvious...

And as many have said, if this is a dictatorial regime, well long live dictatorial regimes 'cause democratic administrations had done nothing to make us live better.


SOUTHAMERICA
 
JUANR
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:37 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:05 am

You are right, God Help Us since it is true that te majority of the people in this country is as blind as you

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
bruno
Posts: 829
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2000 2:01 pm

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:19 am

It seems like bashing the United States is a sure way to win elections in other countries. This was never the case before. Bush has certainly figured out how to make everyone hate us.
Wether we like him or not, Hugo Chavez is there elected leader and we are just going to have to deal with it.
I support the women’s movement up and down!
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:53 am

LHSebi:

Ignorant comments? I started my posts with admitting I have not lived as long in Venezuela as other apparently have. You call that ignorant?

You know what I call ignorant? People who don't fully read my posts but comment on them nevertheless!

After following your link to "El Universal", I've come accross the following: "The Observers Corroborate the CNE's Data" http://www.eluniversal.com/2004/08/16/revo_ava_16A484177.shtml.
Now I know some people are asking for a manual recount, with the International Observers stating the above, such a thing happening will be very difficult.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2302
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:03 am

You are right

The same as saying = I have no other arguments to support my obsessively biased ideas.

And the worst part of it is when you remember that you actually know that everything is true and that the majority of the people is right, but you keep on supporting the opposition just for the sake of you're ridiculous obsession towards some people, and not because you disagree with the leaders' ideas. Please, who can dislike the fact that security in general has increased and that illegal acts have decreased? Laughing to death.

God Help Us since it is true that te majority of the people in this country is as blind as you

People's voice is God's voice. Oh wait... but 70% of 43 million people must be wrong right? Oh yes I should have known better.  Insane


SOUTHAMERICA


[Edited 2004-08-17 02:15:58]
 
JUANR
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:37 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:42 am


Reply 25:
long live dictatorial regimes 'cause democratic administrations had done nothing to make us live better.

Reply 29:
People's voice is God's voice. Oh wait... but 70% of 43 million people must be wrong right? Oh yes I should have known better.


You are going down as it is clear that you can't post without contradicting youself, man this has nothing to do with my well known hate towards paisas, I am a critic of the current goverment because I have seen and work in the countryside and I have seen what is really happening and have felt the pseudo-security state in which we are living now; also because I am a lawyer, I know the law and I am well prepared in this matter, something that you are really far from. Go get a life man.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2302
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:20 am

Contradiction??? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, go learn some English first and then come and see that it was a totally ironic comment (the 2nd). Also, don't cut the sentences when you quote something, that is not right and you know it

Anyway...

man this has nothing to do with my well known hate towards paisas

OK, I'll make an exception, and try and make-believe that this is not even remotely influenced by that stupid feeling (which is more than impossible)

I am a critic of the current goverment because I have seen and work in the countryside

Congratulations, but, wake-up, you're not the only one.

and I have seen what is really happening and have felt the pseudo-security state in which we are living now; also because I am a lawyer, I know the law and I am well prepared in this matter, something that you are really far from.

This proves nothing. Again, you're not the only one under these conditions, I assure you that.

You have no arguments pal'. It's your choice to believe what you want, but try harder to separate objective critics from biased opinions about people, 'cause this time it didn't work and you look ridiculously stupid trying to go againts the flow with such light arguments. Whatever.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
JUANR
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:37 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:39 am

Also, don't cut the sentences when you quote something, that is not right and you know it.

And....what have you just done?


Reply 23
With which the inmense majority of the country is absolutely happy and support ....

Reply 25
You know that it's impossible, everybody knows that, that's why the inmense majority of the people is supporting the decision to give him the time he needs.

Go walking to downtown Bogota and ask many people of different social conditions what they think of the government (specifically the president) and you'll see what the answers are. People have faith, and you know it...


Were those comments made in the ironic way???

I am getting tired of you always coming with that "I-know-everything-I-am-always-right-the-rest-of-you-are-dumb-asses" attitud get ready because when you'll get out to real life you'll be shocked and won't survive easily. In this web you can say whatever you want as you have paid for it, but real life will hurt you, sooner or later.

Juan
SKBO



Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
LHSebi
Posts: 1007
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:24 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:54 am

Schoenorama,
Yes, ignorant comments. You state that you haven't lived in Venezuela for a long time which is (obviously) not the part I call ignorant. What gets on my nerve is that you admit that, yet two lines down you begin ranting on how we are not seeing things the right way in Venezuela. That we are trying to make things sound bad, when they really are not. That's what I call ignorant.

Sebastian
I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
 
TBCITDG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:17 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:48 pm

But at the end fo the day, didn't the people of Venezuela put Chavez in power? So far the international observers have indicated that there was no "corruption" in the voting process and therefore he has been elected to finish off the term by the people.
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2302
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Venezuela To Keep Its Head Of State

Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:05 pm

And....what have you just done?

Cut meaning supreme sentence parts, not divide, which is acceptable to make specifications.

I am getting tired of you always coming with that "I-know-everything-I-am-always-right-the-rest-of-you-are-dumb-asses" attitud

It's amusing to see how rapid and easily you rise in flames. Well I got (past) tired of many attitudes of yours, including the one which started this whole thing (as usual) in reply 16, talking about dictatorial regimes nonesense when more than half of the country is thrilled with the actual president, who was chosen in the most democratic way I've seen BTW. Simple as that. If you insist that there are hidden things, OK, let them be, but people is happy (and has been happy since 2 years ago) and results have been seen. Period.

get ready because when you'll get out to real life you'll be shocked and won't survive easily.

Oh, so this is the part where I should lean down and get all scared??  Laugh out loud  Laugh out loud Try harder and stay within the limits of the topic please, thank you. Oh, and try to tell that to the millions and millions of citizens(lawyers, bakers, cab drivers, bus drivers, pilots, politicians, engineers, students, etc) who have exactly the same thoughts as I do.

In this web you can say whatever you want as you have paid for it

Why do I smell your buddies Fokker50 and RCS763av around....  Laugh out loud


but real life will hurt you, sooner or later.

Again, please try to remain within the limits of the discussion you ridiculously started. The rest is absolutely nobody's business and fortunately those for who I care about can give faith of how I am. Each discussion with you ends up being the exact same thing:

  • You start making a statement completely inaccurate, just for the sake of your weird complexes towards certain countrymen


  • We start discussing, and each and every one of our arguments clearly points out your obsessive biasment and hatred towards something. I'm not the only one who notices it, trust me. Example: dictatorial regime !! Best joke I've heard.

  • When you've miserable failed to prove me (or us) wrong, you start giving advice and warnings for life, and saying things such as "get a life" or "sooner or later you'll see" or "I'm tired of you with...". But thanks, at least they've served as a good laughter machine to certain people.


    Good pattern. Be sure to claim for rights if somebody else use it.

    Good night all.


    SOUTHAMERICA
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