BA
Topic Author
Posts: 10134
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:39 am

This article is 3 weeks old and I wish I had found it sooner, but it is fantastic and it shows that there is sign of hope and peace in the Middle East even when things right now are very bad.

Israeli activists, intellectuals recognize the right of return
Document submitted 'for truth and reconciliation'

Signatories include Prof. Anat Biletzki, Andre Draznin, Haim Hanegbi, Yehudith Harel, Michel (Micado) Warschawski and Oren Medicks

Thursday, July 29, 2004

Israel, 2004, is a state on the road to nowhere. Fifty-six years after its establishment - notwithstanding its many achievements in agriculture, science and technology, and albeit a great regional military power, armed with doomsday weapons - many of its citizens are heartsick with existential worry and fear for their future.

Since its foundation Israel has lived by its sword. An incessant succession of "retaliations," military operations and wars has become the life-support drug of Israel's Jews. And now, almost four years after the beginning of the second Palestinian intifada, Israel is up to its neck in the mire of occupation and oppression, while it goes on extending the settlements and multiplying the outposts, repeating to itself ad nauseam that "we have no partner for peace."

Ten years after the Oslo Accords, we are living in a benighted colonial reality - in the heart of darkness. Thirty-seven years after Israel conquered the last of the Palestinian territories in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, over three and a half million Palestinians under its rule are penned up in their towns and villages. The term "Palestinian State" - which for years embodied the peace option - is being used by many Israeli politicians as a mirage phrase, a spin on the reality of occupation: "In the future," they whisper with a knowing wink, "the Palestinian entity in the Territories may be called a 'state.'" And meanwhile Israel is amplifying the devastation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as if determined to pulverize the Palestinian people to dust.

In the face of the large Israeli camp of supporters of the separation walls - those, both right and left, who are terrified by the demons of demography, constantly counting the populace to find out how many Jews and Arabs are born and die every week, how many Jews and Arabs live in the entire country and in each of its districts every month - it is vital to pose an alternative outlook, based on the following principles:

Coexistence of the peoples of this country, based on mutual recognition, equal partnership and implementation of historical justice.

We are united in a critique of Zionism, based as it is on refusal to acknowledge the indigenous people of this country and on denial of their rights, on dispossession of their lands, and on adoption of separation as a fundamental principle and way of life. Adding insult to injury, Israel persists in its refusal to bear any responsibility for its deeds, from the expulsion of the majority of Palestinians from their homeland more than half a century ago, to the present erection of ghetto walls around the remaining Palestinians in the towns and villages of the West Bank. Thus, wherever Jew and Arab stand together or face each other, a boundary is drawn between them, to separate and distinguish between the blessed and the cursed.

We are united in the recognition that this country belongs to all its sons and daughters - citizens and residents, both present and absentees (the uprooted Palestinian citizens of Israel in 1948 ) - with no discrimination on personal or communal grounds, irrespective of citizenship or nationality, religion, culture, ethnicity or gender. Thus we demand the immediate annulment of all laws, regulations and practices that discriminate between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel, and the dissolution of all institutions, organizations and authorities based on such laws, regulations and practices.

We are united in the belief that peace and reconciliation are contingent on Israel's recognition of its responsibility for the injustices done to the indigenous people, the Palestinians, and on willingness to redress them. Recognition of the right of return follows from our principles. Redressing the continued injustice inflicted on the Palestinian refugees, generation after generation, is a necessary condition both for reconciliation with the Palestinian people, as for the spiritual healing of ourselves, Israeli Jews. Only thus shall we stop being plagued by the past's demons and damnations and make ourselves at home in our common homeland.


Read the rest of the article here:
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=15&article_id=6707

It is people like these that can bring peace to the region. We all have to make sacrifices. We have to accept Israel's right to exist and the Israeli people's right to exist on this land and Israel needs to recognize the right of return for the Palestinian refugees.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Klaus
Posts: 20602
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:51 am

Voices like these (and their necessary counterparts on the palestinian side) are indeed the only source of hope as far as I can see.

Not so much for advocating particular decisions in policy, but in recognizing the humanity of the "opposing" side.

It is possible. And it is also necessary.

Naivity wouldn´t help anyone. But cynicism is just as naive - merely in the other direction.
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:12 am

Nothing new here. Uri Avnery stated same opinions decades ago.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:58 am

Nothing new,

Jews wanted peace since the beginning, actually they never wanted war... It's the Palestinians who refused it over and over again. And I can't see them making a normal statement soon, looking at the trouble they have in their own 'white house' I'm afraid for the day Arafat dies, and at the same time looking forward to it. It's strange but it doesn't seem to change the problem.
I am still convinced that Arafat should have been arrested for mass murder of innocent civilians.

KL911
 
Klaus
Posts: 20602
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Kl911

Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:04 am

Kl911: Jews wanted peace since the beginning, actually they never wanted war... It's the Palestinians who refused it over and over again.

"Now give us your land and move away, peacefully, please!"  Insane

That´s not how this works.

Without acknowledging each other´s real grievances there can´t be any lasting peace.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Fri Aug 20, 2004 7:52 am

Klaus, I respect your intentions and your quest for peace. However, there is absolutely no proof that Arabs are willing to accept an independent Jewish state. Even those Arabs who "accept" Israel's right to exist only do so on on the premise that the Jews will allow millions of Palestinians to return, thus ending the Jewish majority and destroying the state of Israel as we know it. In Jews/Israelis/Zionists opinion, that is just as bad as trying to militarily destroy Israel.

You always talk about both sides recognizing each other and such. It is not an acceptable plan for Palestinians to return to Israel. So what do you propse? Do you feel that Arabs will EVER accept an independent Jewish state without the right of return? Because I don't. And there is no peace to be made with an enemy who seeks nothing less than the death of your state.

What would be your plan for peace, Klaus?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:03 am

We all talk about return, but don't forget that the most Palestinians come from Jordan, and not from Israel. That Jordan doesn't want them back is also a big problem. It's actually one of the 'forgotten' pages of history.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_jordan_renounce_claims.php

Jordan maintained an uneasy relationship with its Palestinians, now the majority east of the Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) constantly incited the Palestinians against Jordan even though Jordan gave them citizenship and in general treated them better than any other Arab land. By 1970 the PLO became such a threat to Jordan, and an international embarassment for Jordan because of their terrorism, that King Hussein drove them out of Jordan.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:15 am

It will be interesting to see the role Jordan has when Israel completes the fence and finishes dealing with the Palestinians. Will the Jordanians be willing to accept them and make them part of Jordan, or will they be a foreign entity?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Klaus
Posts: 20602
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Rjpieces

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:15 am

Starting every sentence by saying that the "other side" is evil and untrustworthy to begin with surely won´t get you anywhere.

a) The fanatics must be pushed out of the way on both sides. The only way to do that is to build actual trust between the two populations. Initiatives like the one above are necessary, but only a first step to achieve that. Of course, they can´t be limited to one side.

b) There needs to be an actual recognition of the other´s situation and interests, as well as of one´s own problematic positions. Without at least a basic willingness to put everything on the table it won´t work.

c) Both sides need to find a reasonable path to a peaceful coexistence. Ideological extreme demands are unachievable and need to be dropped on both sides.

d) I personally would prefer the notion of a free, united and above all secular state for all inhabitants of the area. But if both sides insist on a "racially", culturally or religiously "pure" institution for each larger group (I don´t see that anybody is thinking about the minorities in all this!), then the optimum will be some sort of apartheid just like today, merely on a somewhat less hostile basis and in defined borders. Still, the question of the expatriates needs some resolution, and there will have to be compensation agreements on various levels.


I know that listing the necessary steps is a lot easier than actually making them. But I don´t think there can be any doubt that the current situation is untenable and can only be described as one gigantic disgraceful failure for all involved (and that includes the external forces as well).
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:30 am

the notion of a free, united and above all secular state for all inhabitants of the area

It is as feasible as EU becoming a one , united state with one government, one economy , one nation. Gimme a break.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:05 am

I love the modern times... a German participating in this discussion..  Laugh out loud
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:08 am

Even in pure theory, IMHO, your d/ would be an impossible marmelade Klaus.

I have two questions:
* are the "Palestinian Territories" (Gaza+WB) a viable economic entity ? (even if the event that the colonies would be moved)
* could the same PT accept more inhabitants than they already have (taking the demographic factor into consideration) ?
 
Klaus
Posts: 20602
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

LY7E7

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:16 am

LY7E7: It is as feasible as EU becoming a one , united state with one government, one economy , one nation. Gimme a break.

Here you go: [BREAK]

Considering that we´ve gone from bitter enemies to not just allies but partners in the EU, we´ve already covered the toughest 95% of that distance. Whether the remaining 5% would make sense is another question, but there´s no urgency to that.

Sure, we don´t have an ongoing occupation to deal with, but in terms of positive imagination and constructive energy there isn´t anything more daring and successful than the EU integration on the political scene world wide.

I´d love to see a little more of these qualities in the middle east...
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:30 am

Klaus, one large secular state is simply not feasable. It sounds all nice on paper but it will never happen nor is it practical. Why bothere discussing it?

That is not the best solution; Heck, even the UN acknowledged 60 years ago that partition was the best way to go. The Palestinians need their own state.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Klaus
Posts: 20602
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Rjpieces

Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:40 am

Rjpieces: Klaus, one large secular state is simply not feasable. It sounds all nice on paper but it will never happen nor is it practical. Why bothere discussing it?

I don´t say it´s easy to achieve - but by your standard of limited imagination, Germany and France would still have to be at war, instead of considering a shared citizenship in the future...

Things can change, people can change, perspectives can change. But it´ll never be the timid, the hateful or the resigned people who will achieve it.


Rjpieces: That is not the best solution; Heck, even the UN acknowledged 60 years ago that partition was the best way to go. The Palestinians need their own state.

And the present situation of Israel would be what? A confirmation of that earlier belief? Or the confirmation of its failure?
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:09 am

I don´t say it´s easy to achieve - but by your standard of limited imagination, Germany and France would still have to be at war, instead of considering a shared citizenship in the future...

Totally different situation. Unfortunately, not many comparisons work with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And I suppose anything can be achieved--A Native American state could be carved out. Things can change, people can change, perspectives can change. But it´ll never be the timid, the hateful or the resigned people who will achieve it.

Your argument doesn't always work.

You do realize that you are asking Israel to give up everything it has worked for in the past 60 years? All the fighting, all the death would have been for nothing. And I also hope you see the lunacy and idiocy of giving up your country in order to facilitate "peace"?

Your plan is not an option; most Israelis discred it, as they have for years. Peace can be achieved with two seperate states.

And the present situation of Israel would be what? A confirmation of that earlier belief? Or the confirmation of its failure?

200% better off than the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world. Don't hate on Israel because they were able to thrive despite being attacked several times.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:13 am

Now if only some Arab activists would recognize Jewish right of return to the Arab countries they fled from, then Arab societies would be on the same high moral ground as Israeli society.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:24 am

Yyz717,

A very good point! I'm sure we'll work it out one day.

There's only one thing that bothers me... : Israelis arrive in 1945 ( and way before as well ) with nothing, and still they build an important economy, While there Arab neighbours smoke their stuff, drink coffee and do nothing. Why didn't the Arabs do more to increase their economic power? Even now you see schoolkids running on the streets throwing stones etc etc. Go to school boys! If kids already don't go to school, how can they ever have a good economy? The parents make them fight because they still believe they can drive the Israelis ( Who have been living there for thousands of years) into the sea!! Pfff
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:30 am

Surprised this hasn't turned into a flame war yet.....KL911, Arab members will tell you that Israel's accomplishments are a direct result of US Aid. Of course this is bullsh*t as the US didn't start giving serious aid to Israel until 1973, and still gives mostly military aid.

Now if only some Arab activists would recognize Jewish right of return to the Arab countries they fled from, then Arab societies would be on the same high moral ground as Israeli society.

Indeed. But why would they ever go back to countries they were persecuted in? That is why a Jewish Israel is essential. It is one of the few places that Jews can live totally peacefully in. The state Klaus calls for would result in many Jews dying; Frankly, coming from a German it is almost offensive.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 12:03 pm

Even now you see schoolkids running on the streets throwing stones etc etc. Go to school boys! If kids already don't go to school, how can they ever have a good economy?

They can't go to school, the IDF and the Imperialist Israeli state destroyed them.

Signed,
BA, Horus, QR332.
nothing
 
BA
Topic Author
Posts: 10134
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:33 pm

Klaus,

Beautifully said on all points!

Kl911,

Jews wanted peace since the beginning, actually they never wanted war...

They wanted peace with the Arabs off of their land.

It's the Palestinians who refused it over and over again.

Really? Let's see....who are the refugees again? The Jews or the Palestinians?

And I can't see them making a normal statement soon, looking at the trouble they have in their own 'white house' I'm afraid for the day Arafat dies, and at the same time looking forward to it. It's strange but it doesn't seem to change the problem.

Most Palestinians hardly love Arafat. He's created more trouble for the Palestinians than good. He is the reason why their are major problems between the Arab governments and the Palestinian refugees.

I am still convinced that Arafat should have been arrested for mass murder of innocent civilians.

And the exact same thing can be said about Sharon.

Hmm...Sabra and Chatila massacre in Lebanon comes to mind. An attack which resulted in 800 Palestinian deaths. A massacre carried out Elie Hobeika, leader of the Lebanese Forces militia, sponsored and supported by Sharon!

Rjpieces,

However, there is absolutely no proof that Arabs are willing to accept an independent Jewish state.

Which is exactly why Israel will have to become a secular state and not a Jewish one.

Even those Arabs who "accept" Israel's right to exist only do so on on the premise that the Jews will allow millions of Palestinians to return

Isn't that what this thread is about? Right of return?

thus ending the Jewish majority and destroying the state of Israel as we know it.

Sorry, no, it will neither end the Jewish majority nor destroy Israel. The Palestinians would become somewhere around 40% of the population and the land would still be called Israel and those Palestinians would have Israeli citizenship.

In Jews/Israelis/Zionists opinion, that is just as bad as trying to militarily destroy Israel.

ROFL! Can you explain to me how accepting the right of return is just as bad as militarily destroying Israel when absolutely no force is being used? When absolutely nobody is being forced to live or have their lives threatened?

It is not an acceptable plan for Palestinians to return to Israel.

How is it not acceptable for the indigenous population to have the right to return to their lands? Oh yeah..it will "destroy Israel" right Rjpieces?

Do you feel that Arabs will EVER accept an independent Jewish state without the right of return?

No they will not.

Because I don't.

Good, you learned something.

And there is no peace to be made with an enemy who seeks nothing less than the death of your state.

Not death, we seek justice for the Palestinian people by giving them the right to return to their lands.

KL911,

We all talk about return, but don't forget that the most Palestinians come from Jordan, and not from Israel.

This is entirely false. First of all, the country of Israel did not come into existence until 1948. Throughout history, Jordan has been extremely sparsely populated with nothing but some bedouin tribes. The area was called TransJordan meaning the area across the Jordan River.

On the other hand, in 1900, Palestine had a population of 750,000. At the time, that was a high number.

Jordan maintained an uneasy relationship with its Palestinians, now the majority east of the Jordan. The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) constantly incited the Palestinians against Jordan even though Jordan gave them citizenship and in general treated them better than any other Arab land. By 1970 the PLO became such a threat to Jordan, and an international embarassment for Jordan because of their terrorism, that King Hussein drove them out of Jordan.

That was entirely Arafat's fault. Arafat was acting as if he had his own little country in Jordan and was controling certain areas for himself. He is responsible for the trouble between the Palestinians and Jordan and in general, the Palestinians and all the Arab countries.

I don't think King Hussein handled the situation properly as he killed thousands of Palestinians in the process, but the responsibility is that of Arafat.

Rjpieces,

Will the Jordanians be willing to accept them and make them part of Jordan, or will they be a foreign entity?

Sorry, but Jordan is not going to get back the West Bank. The Palestinians will not let it and the world will not let it. West Bank and Gaza once free of Israeli rule will become a Palestinian state.

Klaus, one large secular state is simply not feasable.

Yes it is, we believe it is because it was a secular before Israel came to exist.

That is not the best solution

It is the only solution.

Heck, even the UN acknowledged 60 years ago that partition was the best way to go. The Palestinians need their own state.

And the Arabs rejected it because they did not want to give up 56% of their land to accomodate Jewish immigrants. You simply cannot partition the land and satisfy both sides. The Palestinians were mixed all over. The UN partition plan would have caused the Palestinians on the Jewish side to immigrate to the Palestinian side. Something we don't want.

Not to mention that they were giving the majority of the land to the minority.

You do realize that you are asking Israel to give up everything it has worked for in the past 60 years?

Ummm....care to explain how the right of return will mean giving up everything they worked for in the past 60 years?

And I also hope you see the lunacy and idiocy of giving up your country in order to facilitate "peace"?

They give citizenship to anybody that is Jew. Yet they deny citizenship to the indigenous population. That is lunacy. The fact that they are giving citizenship to Ethiopians just because they are Jews but deny citizenship to the indigenous population is really frustrating.

They would not be giving up their country by allowing right of return.

Nobody is being made to leave.

200% better off than the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world. Don't hate on Israel because they were able to thrive despite being attacked several times.

Thrive because of the support they had from the world.

Yyz717,

Now if only some Arab activists would recognize Jewish right of return to the Arab countries they fled from, then Arab societies would be on the same high moral ground as Israeli society.

And I would fully support such an initiative. Please keep in mind though that Arab Jews were not forcefully kicked out. During the 40s, they experienced massive discrimination, but there were never any moves to expell the Arab Jews. They left by choice. By the way, the Arabs tried to convince the Arab Jews to not leave, especially Syria. As you know, the Arabs were trying to cut down on the Jewish immigration to Israel as much as they can to prevent the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine. They left because they were encouraged by the Zionists to leave, often times given great incentives. They were promised nice financial packages.

About the return of Arab Jews to the Arab countries, this could be made a requirement as part of the two-way Israeli/Palestinian solution. I would fully support it.

Also please keep in mind that there still are Jews in Arab countries, not all of them left. Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria all have descently sized Jewish populations. I know of the more than 15 million Lebanese in the world, 5,000 are Lebanese Jews. These are Jews who decided to retain their Lebanese citizenship and not become Israeli citizens despite Israel's many attempts during the civil war to lure the Lebanese Jews to Israel.

Kl911,

Israelis arrive in 1945 ( and way before as well ) with nothing, and still they build an important economy

The difference is the Israelis were given assistance by not just the US at the time, but the entire western world. They helped the Israelis build up their country and helped them become industrialized. A luxury the Arabs never had.

While there Arab neighbours smoke their stuff, drink coffee and do nothing. Why didn't the Arabs do more to increase their economic power?

I agree that this is our fault and we could be improving ourselves, but this has nothing to do with Israel/Palestine.

This argument can also be said about many countries in the world. The fact is the Arab world is not the worst off in the world, their are countries that are far worse off when it comes to economy and poverty.

Even now you see schoolkids running on the streets throwing stones etc etc.

What do you want them to throw?

If kids already don't go to school, how can they ever have a good economy?

Many kids do go to school. Lately there have been a lot of cheap schools set up in the Arab world and even public schools (meaning you don't pay for them). Those who don't go to school don't go because they can't afford it.

There is poverty everywhere in the world. Not just in the Arab world.

The parents make them fight because they still believe they can drive the Israelis ( Who have been living there for thousands of years) into the sea!!

Last time I checked, that was only desperate Palestinian refugees in Gaza and West Bank. Yes, there have been Jews living in this land for thousands of years. But they'v always been a minority. In the year 1900, they were less 10% of the population.

Oh and these 10% are not called Israelis. They are called Arab Jews.

Rjpieces,

Arab members will tell you that Israel's accomplishments are a direct result of US Aid. Of course this is bullsh*t as the US didn't start giving serious aid to Israel until 1973, and still gives mostly military aid.

Israel has been recieving aid from the western world since its creation. They recieved military aid (massive military aid), financial aid, and infrastructure aid. The western countries helped Israel start itself up and help it develop its industries. A luxury the Arab world has never experienced.

During the early years of Israel, France and the UK were probably the biggest contributers in helping Israel, I think more than the US at the time. For France, this changed greatly when De Gaulle came into power.

Speaking of France, this is why the majority of Israel's air force during the 50's and 60's were French made. Israel was one of the biggest operators of the Dassault Mirage fighter. Israel and France also together developped their nuclear arsenal.

Regarding the US aid, since the late 70's, the US aid has become financial aid which Israel uses to buy military equipment and also develop itself. Oh, and before you use the "Egypt gets $1.2 billion in aid, but look at their state!" argument, let me tell you why.

Egypt has a population of 76 million people and is one of the fastest growing populations. Israel is a tiny country with 6 million people. You are talking about less than half the aid being distributed to more than ten times the population to a country 50 times as large. Not to mention that Egypt cannot as freely spend its financial aid as Israel can.

But why would they ever go back to countries they were persecuted in?

The point is they would be given the option. I don't think many Palestinians would want to go back to Israel on the otherhand. Most if they were given the option will probably go to West Bank/Gaza, the Palestinian state.

The state Klaus calls for would result in many Jews dying

LOL!

Frankly, coming from a German it is almost offensive.

And this statement of yours is offensive to Germans and Germany.

I'm off to sleep.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:23 pm

Israel has been recieving aid from the western world since its creation. They recieved military aid (massive military aid), financial aid, and infrastructure aid. The western countries helped Israel start itself up and help it develop its industries. A luxury the Arab world has never experienced.

Now thats funny. I guess you never heard of the BILLIONS that the Arabs are making off the oil fields? What Israel is receiving is chump change, compared to what the Arab world is worth. I guess Arabs never learned to share or give to those less fortunate, shame really.

The difference is the Israelis were given assistance by not just the US at the time, but the entire western world. They helped the Israelis build up their country and helped them become industrialized. A luxury the Arabs never had.

 Nuts  Nuts

The Arabs were granted a huge gift - Oil, yet I see huge poverty rates in the richest region in the world, that's ludicrous! Just imagine if all the major Oil fields were in the US, the poverty in the country would be almost non-existent.!
nothing
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:48 pm

Klaus,Beautifully said on all points!

Klaus, the fact that someone who deeply despises Israel as much as he does, agrees with you should be a sign......


Most Palestinians hardly love Arafat. He's created more trouble for the Palestinians than good. He is the reason why their are major problems between the Arab governments and the Palestinian refugees.

Let them replace him, or overthrow him, if they hate him so much..........


Me: However, there is absolutely no proof that Arabs are willing to accept an independent Jewish state.

BA:Which is exactly why Israel will have to become a secular state and not a Jewish one.


Thank you for confirming that Arabs will never accept an independent Israel.

ROFL! Can you explain to me how accepting the right of return is just as bad as militarily destroying Israel when absolutely no force is being used? When absolutely nobody is being forced to live or have their lives threatened?

Means are different, but the ends are the same.

Me:Do you feel that Arabs will EVER accept an independent Jewish state without the right of return?

BA:No they will not.


And that is exactly why Israel is building a security fence and turning its back on the Palestinians. See how you like it then. What exactly do you think is going to happen once Israel completes the fence and pulls out of the GS and some WB settlements? Please answer that.

Not death, we seek justice for the Palestinian people by giving them the right to return to their lands.

At the expense of the Jewish state.

Yes it is, we believe it is because it was a secular before Israel came to exist.

It wasn't anything before Israel came to exist. It was a barren wasteland. And Jews were at the mercy of Arabs then, just as they were in Arab lands.

It is the only solution.

As I've said, Israel has more or less given up hope of peace with its neighbors. That is why they are building a fence and being done with you lunatics. IMO, they should have done this 20 years ago.

Please keep in mind though that Arab Jews were not forcefully kicked out.

How fast you are to say Jews weren't kicked out of Arab countries; and yet you insist Jews kicked Arabs out of Israel.....

Also please keep in mind that there still are Jews in Arab countries, not all of them left. Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria all have descently sized Jewish populations. I know of the more than 15 million Lebanese in the world, 5,000 are Lebanese Jews. These are Jews who decided to retain their Lebanese citizenship and not become Israeli citizens despite Israel's many attempts during the civil war to lure the Lebanese Jews to Israel.

LOL. Syria has about 250; Egypt less than 100; Lebanon also less than 100. Compare that to 20,000 in 1948.

The difference is the Israelis were given assistance by not just the US at the time, but the entire western world. They helped the Israelis build up their country and helped them become industrialized. A luxury the Arabs never had.

That is your excuse for the pathetic state of the Arab world?

I agree that this is our fault and we could be improving ourselves, but this has nothing to do with Israel/Palestine.

Improve yourselves first, then come talk about the Palestinians.

The point is they would be given the option. I don't think many Palestinians would want to go back to Israel on the otherhand. Most if they were given the option will probably go to West Bank/Gaza, the Palestinian state.

They can go back to the West Bank/Gaza. Once Israel pulls out, they can but**ck themselves allday for all Israel cares.

And this statement of yours is offensive to Germans and Germany.

Well unfortunately for Germans their fathers and grandfathers committed the Holocaust. Germans of today have a moral obligation to help Israel in every way possible--And they have been absolutely amazing for the most part.

I do not think Klaus wishes any harm to Jews; I think he is either ignorant to, or ignoring, the fact that the right of return would destroy the Israel of the past 60 years. The same Israel that every German has an obligation to protect.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:37 pm

Klaus,

My real point was that no Spaniard will ever live under Swedish/German/French (or vice versa) government when it will have to decide how things are run in Madrid and Barcelona. Every European country, despite the European Union, keeps its own national issues to itself and always will. Indeed , current situation in the EU is very nice, especially considering a thousands years long history of bloody wars and hatred on the continent. Germany will always remain a German speaking country run by a vast German majority, speaking German and learning Goethe and Schiller before Shakespeare and Flaubert. Same valid for any other member of the EU. Same is valid for Israel and Palestine. We may live peacefully side be side one day, but we'll never be a one multinational country.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:07 pm

LY7E7 you are mistaken, both on the EU subject and even on the global scale. I am confident you are young enough to see what the EU will become in 4 or 5 decades, your grandson might see the same on a worldwide scale.

The notion of country, at least in Europe, as people have been teached and used to stick to is eroding, and faster that many would have thought.
If one looks at the most socially developed nations, basically NW Europe, you might see that people are less likely to identify themselves with "nationalistic" milestones and are the most likely to espouse international ideas and values.
If a referendum took place asking the people if they are prepared to be governed by a competent albeit non-national body, I think you should be extremely surprised.

The EU has been very keen to promote and support regions over nations.
It says something that people are free to choose where to study, work and live (and vote) and still have exactly the same rights everywhere.
This was made possible by the disappearance of differentiating elements, among them the link between state and religion and army conscription.

Most of us already understand and have adopted the idea that we are part of a same large family. Do not be surprised if people ask "European" when you ask for their identity.

Almost one century ago, a Belgian named Henri La Fontaine (Nobel peace prize) wrote "The great solution: Magnissima Carta". Truly visionary !
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:58 pm

Iakobos,
I have a very strong affection to the view of the unification as you have presented it. The vision of "One World" (I just take the idea of the EU as you posted it one step further) is by all means not a new one. If there is one idea of bright future that is common to almost all humanists since the renaissance that would be it. For instance you can take the writings of the science fiction authors of the second half of the 20th century, or the "Utopia". The philosophical stream that stands behind such ideas is beautiful and promises great future for the human kind, wherever it dwells on our planet. But vast majority of the people , especially outside of Europe will find it impossible to implement , at least in the next few centuries, since it hides within some qualities required of the humans that contradict some other more "animal's" qualities that people bear within their DNA, if you will. That is something you cannot fight with. The human kind must become way more uniform for such idea to become feasible for actual implementation. In EU such uniformity exists to a certain degree, as we all can see. I still have my doubts for how further can it go. The situation in the Middle East is different. While the Arab countries have what it takes for such unification (and they still are unwilling/unable to build such society), Israel is quite a different story. The culture and mentality are very different from our neighbors. This diminishes the chances of a "Middle Eastern Union" with Israel as an equal member. It even has very little to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because even if the peace will come tomorrow the differentiation will still be a too major factor , that will prevent an EU stile politics in the area.

From the dawn of the modern human civilization Europe has been (and still is) that promoted such humanist ideas. Unfortunately The rest of the world is not mature enough. The nationalist idea is very much alive. Even in Europe. While you are talking of a more unified Europe Basques and Corsicans may disagree.

One more thing. It is only after thousands years of devastating wars and national conflicts that Europe is in a certain degree ready to give up the nationalist idea. Outside of Europe it is quite different (the only arguable exception would be the US). In addition to all that the Jews are bearing their own traumas of the Holocaust and European anti-semitism from the dawn of the Christianity (ironically brought to the world by a Jew and his Jewish apostles), things that would be minimized or wouldn't even exist, had the Jews have their own national entity. In the beginnig of the 20th century 2 main ideas were present within the European Jewish intellectuals : Total assimilation in the European nations and own national entity. Needless to say what one prevailed and why.

Best regards.

PS: BA, QR , Horus and others: THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE CURRENT CONFLICT.

Edited for typos

[Edited 2004-08-20 15:59:36]
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:44 am

Hell yes. Most were by fear and Jewish Zionist terrorist groups.

Proof please.

Brainwashing?

You are operating under the assumption that Israel is fundamentally evil and that anyone who supports it is "brainwashed". That might work with Europeans but that crap won't fly in America. Try again.

Because most of congress and policy officials are either very pro-Israeli or are Jewish, makes sense right?

Genius QR. I ask you why politicians are pro-Israeli and you answer "because they are pro-Israeli". Seems somebody was dropped on the head alright. Would you like to try again?

And no, there are only 11 Jewish Senators and 26 Jewish Congressmen. 11/100 and 26/435 in no way can explain the widespread support America has for Israel. Congress voted 407-9 and the Senate 95 to 3 to endorse President Bush and Sharon's plan for Israel to pull out of the GS, most of the WB, and for Palestinian refugees not to be able to resettle in Israel. Margins like that are not explained by "Jewish influence."
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:56 am

LY7E7,

Two Southafrican colleagues, who´ve been working for IAI and IMI in Tel Aviv told me that there is an increasing number of Jewish/Arab marriages in Israel, but most of the people involved keep quit because they might "get it" from both sides. Anything you know about this?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:32 am

Jan,

For the Jews it mainly depends on the origins. Ironically Jewish families with roots in Arab countries tend not to accept such marriages. There have been cases in which Jewish bride/groom got kicked out of family because of such marriage. The explanation is quite simple - Sephard Jews (the ones with the Arab origins, as opposed to the European Ashkenaz Jews) are more traditional ones , and the Jewish religion prohibits intermarriage. As for the Arabs - it is even less acceptable, and there have been a few cases when the Arab spouse got life threats from his/hers family. In any case such couples are very rare. As a rule the secular majority in Israel has no problems with intermarriage.


Regards,
Rudy

[Edited 2004-08-20 19:32:42]
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:39 am

Thanks for the answer, Rudy,

I´ve got a very good friend in Berlin, who is a Sephard Jew from Aserbeidjan. Her children (she was married to a guy from Zaire before and her children are dark skinned, esp. her 25 year old daughter is a stunner  Smile/happy/getting dizzy), were never really accepted by the mostly Ashkenaz Jewish community in Berlin (most of them now coming from Russia). Her son got himself accepted into a group of mostly Arab and Turkish teenagers and men in their early 20s, esp. in standing together against German right wing teenagers (aka Skinheads).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:49 am

Jan,

The relations between the Sephardic and Ashkenaz Jews are an interesting issue by itself. Nowadays, especially in Israel the situation is better than what you described, though in the 50s the Sephardic Jews got their own share of discrimination. A friend of mine in Kreuzberg , Berlin (she is German) told me about a similar cases. I never encountered such situations myself though, despite numerous visits to Berlin.Possibly because all the people I hang around with are Germans  Smile

PS. Can I get the phone number of that girl you mentioned?  Smile


[Edited 2004-08-20 19:51:28]
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:54 am

LY7E7,

Unfortunately I don´t hand out phone numbers... :-(
BTW, Her mother is reallly beautifull as well, in her mid 40s...


It seems that the mostly Eastern European Ashkenaz Jews in Berlin had a problem in accepting black people as "genuine" Jews. I´ve heard that there was a similar problem in Israel as well when the Ethiopean Jews came over.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:48 am

I found this site today. It gives a fantastic history of the Arab/Palestinian-Israeli conflict.....

http://masada2000.org/historical.html
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:37 pm

Genius QR. I ask you why politicians are pro-Israeli and you answer "because they are pro-Israeli". Seems somebody was dropped on the head alright. Would you like to try again?

The hell does that have to do with this thread? I didn't even participate. Yep, I do think you were dropped on the head alright.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:09 am

The hell does that have to do with this thread? I didn't even participate. Yep, I do think you were dropped on the head alright.

Do you always avoid the question QR? As you are probably aware, since you wrote it, you said that in the other thread that was locked. If you don't/can't answer it, fine. But don't beat around the bush.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:32 am

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Retur

Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:08 am

Doesn't really matter anymore Horus. Israel will be out of most of the WB and GS, with a fence seperating the Israelis and the Palestinians soon enough.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jutes85
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:50 pm

RE: Israeli Activists Recognize The Right Of Return

Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:05 am

The Palistinians will find something else to bitch about.
nothing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests