7LBAC111
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Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:21 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3616868.stm

At least 200 pupils and some parents and teachers are being held hostage in southern Russia after a school was seized by masked and armed attackers.
At least 17 men and women, some wearing explosive belts, entered the school in Beslan, North Ossetia, officials said.

They are believed to have laid mines and trip wires, threatening to blow up the school if stormed by police. An Islamist group, calling itself the Islambouli Brigades, claimed responsibility and described the attack as "part of the wave of support and assistance to the Muslim Chechens".


Where will this stop. 200 children taken hostage at school.
What justification is their for this?? Once again where does Islam allow this???

7LBAC111



[Edited 2004-09-01 12:21:32]
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ryanb741
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RE: Chechen Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:23 pm

What is clear is that a whole bunch of these kids are going to die, which is a real slur on Islam. Where are all the Muslim leaders denouncing this act?
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7LBAC111
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Wed Sep 01, 2004 7:24 pm

Probably in their Mosques planning more Suicide Attacks.
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Russophile
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:37 pm

The Muslim leader of North Ossetia is currently inside the school opening negotiations with the Chechens. And he has already denounced the act.

There was another bomb attack in Moscow last night near a metro. 10 people killed, including at least one kid, and over 50 injuried.

The same group which claimed responsibility for the VolgaAviaexpress and Siberia bombings have also claimed responsibility for the bomb blast last night and the taking of up to 400 people today.
 
OV735
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:08 pm

I kind of understand their point, but that (or anything else) does not justify any acts of terrorism against anyone.

It's not all about Islam in that region (unlike the Middle East). Chechnya is a country occupied by the Russian Federation. After several years of trying to gain their independence (and stop the Russian agression) in a peaceful way by negotiations, they have given up and try the hard way now. At any rate, terrorism makes it only go worse.

Just my two copecks...
 
b757300
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:14 pm

Islam, in the form preached by many, is not a religion of peace but a cult of violence, murder, and death. Muslims who do not follow those teachings need to speak up and denounce such actions. Sadly this rarely happens. Makes me wonder how many really do oppose it.
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gkirk
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:00 am

Although I know that it is a small group of muslims that do these kinds of acts of terrorism, its about time that someone from the Islamic world stood up against this, else the whole world will go against all Muslims and what will we have...murders of innocent muslims the whole world over...
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jamesag96
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:12 am

The German people were by and large peaceful, but were whipped up by the rhetoric of a few, and then were too impotent to stand up to them.

I think the same thing is happening here.

Too, Islam has not had the benefit of a religious schism, reformation, and resulting theological evolution. Sadly for the most part it is a religion mired in antiquated beliefs.

Remember Christianity has its fair share of blood in history.
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Sabena 690
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:24 am

Islam, in the form preached by many, is not a religion of peace but a cult of violence, murder, and death.

You really have no clue about what you are talking...

@Gkirk: I fully agree with your posting... The extremism (heck, B757300 is an extremist too with the only difference being the fact that he doesn't blow up Democrats yet) is only coming from small groups. Much people have nothing to do with those groups. Several attacks of the past weeks have even shown that a lot of bombs were against normal innocent Muslims.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:39 am

As I see the problem with Chechnia is that what started as a rebellion for national independence has during the last ten years been hijacked by Islamist radicals for their own ends. AFAIK moderate Chechen politicians, nationalist, but willing to negotiate with the Russians, who wanted to build up a democratic country, have been sidelined (and sometimes killed as traitors) by radicals, who in some cases (as the Jordanian born leader of one guerilla group) don´t even come from Chechnia. I think some radical Muslim leaders are dreaming of a Muslim empire from Morocco to the Southern Philippines, of course under their rule and only permitting their interpretation of Islam.
There were similar problems in Bosnia, when it was discovered that a lot of Arab Islamistic radicals were coming there during the civil war to enforce their ideas of Islam on a quite unreligious public and a lot of "aid" from e.g. Saudi Arabia consisted of building mosques for radical groups.

Jan
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MerC
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:39 am

Islam, in the form preached by many, is not a religion of peace but a cult of violence, murder, and death.

 Insane  Yeah sure
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:03 am

Islam, in the form preached by many, is not a religion of peace but a cult of violence, murder, and death.

You really have no clue about what you are talking...


Actually Sabena, he's right.

The key words there are "in the form preached by many." Not ALL - not by a long shot - but many Muslims have perverted their interpretation of Islam to justify the slaying of all non-Muslims in the name of God. Those sick individuals are the ones B757300 is talking about, not all Muslims in general.

While the percentage of Muslims who share the beliefs of these fanatics is very small, overall it's still a frighteningly large number of people.
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tbar220
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:25 am

Sabena,

It might be a small group of people preaching this kind of "Islam", but the fact that they follow through with action makes it too many of them. The fact that they are blowing up airplanes, destroying civilian busses, taking children hostage, beheading civilian workers, etc. etc. etc. is very disturbing. And the fact that nothing seems to be happening from within to change this is even more disturbing. Many times, it is the indifference of good people which is worse than the evil itself. Their silence and their inaction is just as bad in my eyes as the actions being carried out themselves.
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777236ER
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:26 am

While the percentage of Muslims who share the beliefs of these fanatics is very small, overall it's still a frighteningly large number of people.

Which is true. Should the goal be to simply eliminate these people? Or to help ensure that these people, and importantly future generations, change their views?

The Russians have had a very hard line against Chechen terrorists since 1999 - much the same hard line as the US is undertaking and apparently planning to undertake in other Muslim countries. Look where this approach has led the Russians. If anything, this shows that military force simply does not work against terrorists organisations, as terrorists are not a military force.
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:32 am

While the percentage of Muslims who share the beliefs of these fanatics is very small, overall it's still a frighteningly large number of people.

Which is true. Should the goal be to simply eliminate these people? Or to help ensure that these people, and importantly future generations, change their views?


You've hit the nail right on the head. What should the goal be with these people, exactly? You can't just say, "Wipe them out." However, you can't change the views of those who don't want their views changed, either.

And ignoring the problem in hopes it goes away only results in things like 9/11.

To be honest, I don't know that there is any solution, short of hoping that the majority of peaceful, decent Muslims rise up in opposition to those who would corrupt all they stand for.

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
tbar220
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:35 am

I don't think any sort of outside solution is possible. The only way to end terrorism if you ask me is from some sort of change from within, some sort of revolution of thought perhaps. Terrorism and radicalism is all too much accepted in too many of these countries and people. Once this changes, maybe there will be hope for large scale change.

As we've seen, for everybody else its a lose-lose situation.
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iakobos
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:04 am

I fully concur with Tbar's approach.
The West (generally speaking) cannot do more than put aidband on a wooden leg.

We like it or not, but religion is at the core of the problem; not the precepts of the religion itself, though all religious texts are unspecific enough to support a wide variety of interpretations, but as the philosophical background on which those movements build up their motives and justify their actions.

The change has to come from inside. But where inside ?
There is nothing such as a single religious authority, there are hundreds, leading a dozen of religious variations.
It is not confined to one specific country but to a couple of dozens, all of them being more or less tightly linked to the religion, as deep in fact as in the law itself.
It is not better on the political side, by tradition, opportunism and necessity, the only things that matters in those places is the ruler's interest and his country's stability.

So what (to do) ?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:18 am

Another problem is that there exist plenty ofmoderate Muslims over the Islamic world, but they are constantly in danger of getting assaulted, maimed or killed by the fanatics, so they are very carefull about publicaly speaking out. Acc. to a Spiegel magazine (German news magazine, comparable to Newsweek and Time magazine in size and importance) article a few weeks ago, even in Germany, moderate Muslims, who speak out in favour of the constitution and against radicalism complain about being harrassed and threatened. In some countries controlledc by the radicals, they actually face prison.
Another thing is (what I´ve heard from a female Iranian aquaintance, who had to flee Iran as a young woman in the 80´s), is that the radical, just believe strongly and support us, we´ll promise you a pie in the sky ideas, get supported mostly by the uneducated, poorer part of the society
Instead of condeming ALL Muslims, we should help those moderates (who in some cases I see as Islamic Martin Luthers), to redefine Islam to fit into 21st century society and to reform it, without having to give up their belief. At the same time a massive educational campaign is necessary, also to teach children, that to define yourself, it is NOT necessary to hate somebody else.

Jan
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QIguy24
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:27 am

Just look at that Iranian author. I can't remember his name now but I think it is Salman Rushdie. He has a death warrant on him because he expressed his opinion about religion in Iran. And AFAIK he fled to England and lives there now.
 
iakobos
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:35 am

Yes Jan, it is as always a few who are leading the uneducated poor masses.
We had our middle ages, they are for the most part still in theirs.

Educational campaign: in the poorest countries this is usually not a priority, sometimes not even an major concern.
In the richest (oil soaked) who really did spend on education, it results in making three categories of educated natives: the incompetent who will get a high-paid job anyway by virtue of their nationality, the lazy who will not take a job but still get an income by virtue of their nationality, the gifted and working ones who will immigrate to the West.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:38 am

In current Iran, the educated people and the middle class support changes to democracy (in fact they are heartily fed up with corrupt clerical rule, but just kind of resigned for the moment), while the Mullahs rely on the very conservative poorer class, those e.g. who can´t send their kids to a good school, but instead to a free one run by the radicals, where they get indoctrinated.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Russophile
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:27 am

In response to OV735.

There has never been an independent country of Chechnya. The only thing which there is, is an ethnic group called Chechens. They have never had a central government, and contrary to what the pro-Chechen websites would lead you to believe, they have never lived in peace. Pro-Chechen sites go on about how the Chechens have never gone to battle, except in defence. Not true. The Chechens have been in plenty of offensive battles throughout their history -- mainly between themselves. Chechen society is very much clan-based, and it continues to be so. This is evident in that Mashkadov claims he has nothing to do with any of the recent terrorist acts against Russia (utter bullshit!!), but if he speaks the truth, then it is one of the other Chechen clans who is trying to gain more control within the Chechen society.

In the last 10 years it has NOT been Russia who has been the aggressor, but rather the Chechens themselves. They illegally declared independence after the fall of the CCCP -- independence which was not recognised by a single country -- and they turned the country into a hotbed of terrorist activity, which got so bad that Russia had no choice but to send federal troops into the Republic (remember, the Republic is not a historical one, but a Soviet created one).

Because the Russians didn't want to obliterate Grozhny, in 1996, a cease fire was signed, and the federal troops left.

It wasn't until 1999 that the current war started, and this was at the behest of the Chechens who decided that it would be a good tactic to bomb apartment buildings in various Russian cities. Even after these bombings, Moscow did not send Federal troops to Chechnya. It was only after Chechen terrorists crossed into neighbouring Dagestan and launched terrorist attacks there in support of the small movement in that Republic which wants independence from Russia and an Islamic Republic (they are in the minority).

It was then that Moscow sent troops into the region and the war began.

For the last 10 years, Federal Russia has not been the aggressor. This does not mean to say that Federal troops are not guilty of abuses, but it was not without provocation.

I 100% support the aims of the Federal Russian government in Chechnya, with reservations -- those reservations being that abuses need to be fully investigated, and those who are guilty being punished -- this has been happening more often in the last 12 months or so.

The Chechens have at no stage ever tried to peacefully negotiate a thing in regards to their desire to secede from the Russian Federation and to install an Islamic Republic (one which would be even more strict than Afghanistan under the Taliban -- yes fundamentalist Islam plays a BIG factor in Chechnya).
 
FJWH
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:19 am

Ow G-SUS, where is humanity going???
Deahts, hostages, explosions, Al-Qaida....

I'm getting so sick of those mf bastards in the middle-east......!!!
It's all caused by (.......) religion!!
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jutes85
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:23 am

I'm getting so sick of those mf bastards in the middle-east......!!!
It's all caused by (.......) religion!!


Obviously they will deny this. They can't accept the fact that they are the cause of many of the worlds security issues.
nothing
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:25 am

@EA CO AS, 777236ER and others,

Actually, I do agree with the interpretation you give in your posting.

You've hit the nail right on the head. What should the goal be with these people, exactly? You can't just say, "Wipe them out." However, you can't change the views of those who don't want their views changed, either.

Honnestly, I don't have a solution either...

The people blowing up themselves are promissed to be in paradise after their "heroïc" act.

Still today, kids at the age of 10-15 are being brainwashed to get an anti-Western mentality. The future generation of terrorists coming from the MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME is currently being brainwashed.

What can you do about it?

Saying that a mentality change is needed, is indeed thé solution, but not easy to achieve.

I really hope that stability will come soon into Iraq, and (although the chances are very small in my eyes unfortunately) a real democracy will be created. A stable environment, and attention for all the problems the people in the MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME have, is the way to a reduction in terrorism in my eyes.

Although the war in Iraq ended officialy a long time ago, it is sad to hear that a lot of people still don't have electricity and water. I hope that a priority will be made to give those people important things like water and electricity asap, as it only stimulates the anti-Western mentality.

Frederic
 
777236ER
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:25 am

We can at least agree that changing the mentality is a lot better in the long term than bombing a few people.

Consider this: in fifty years no one will really care about terrorists alive today, but in fifty years the kids being born now will have a part to play in the Middle East. There's no escaping from the fact that those people will not see the US as a friend if the US killed that person's father, mother, brother or sister back in 2004 - either as collateral damage or otherwise. But if between 2004 and 2010 that kid was in school, and learned all about the Middle East, the world and the ideas of freedom and justice that the West has, that person simply isn't going to grow up hating the West.

Take Iraq; I think all parties want a stable Iraq now, whatever their beliefs on the war. The way to do this, in my opinion, is for a true multilateral force to move in. All it would take is for George Bush to say this: "look, we still believe we were justified in attacking Iraq, but that's in the past. It's in everyone's interest to have a stable Iraq. Let's put the past aside and work together to ensure that. I am willing to work with the UN to construct a multilateral peace-keeping and rebuilding force to help the people of Iraq."

Right now it's very easy for terrorists to convince young people that the US is a tyranical enemy who invading their country because it's evil. With a force made up of every UN nation, including all those from the EU, the Americas and Asia, helping locals to restore water and electricity supplies, while not shooting unless absolutely necessary, it becomes much harder for terrorists to convince young people that the West is the enemy.
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iakobos
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:26 am

Russophile,

"They illegally declared independence" I assume you could rephrase this sentence to make the paradox less visible.
If these clans really want their independence, possibly through a transitional autonomy period, did Moscow ever consider the possibility to let someone run reasonably fair elections, or is it unconceivable for some reason(s) ?

"It wasn't until 1999 that the current war started, and this was at the behest of the Chechens who decided that it would be a good tactic to bomb apartment buildings in various Russian cities."
That does not make a lot of sense, is it ?
Sincerely, how much credit can you give to controlled information in Russia, back in '99 or now. Is there anything like fre independent media and investigative journalism that might give a multi-faced approach to the comprehension of events ?

I am not sarcastic, just asking.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hosta

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:02 am

B757300:

"...Sadly this rarely happens. Makes me wonder how many really do oppose it."

Ryanb741:

"...Where are all the Muslim leaders denouncing this act?"

GKirk:

"...Although I know that it is a small group of muslims that do these kinds of acts of terrorism, its about time that someone from the Islamic world stood up against this, else the whole world will go against all Muslims and what will we have...murders of innocent muslims the whole world over..."

FJWH:

"...I'm getting so sick of those mf bastards in the middle-east......!!!
It's all caused by (.......) religion!!
"


Guys, I'm sorry for disturbing all your theories about 'those terrible Islamic terrorists', but the origin of this conflict is geographical and not religious.

The fact that these people happen to be Muslims doesn't mean this is 'yet another' sign of radical Islamic extremism, as you all seem to believe. This is about the Russian occupation of what Chechens believe is their territory and nothing else. Period.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:10 am

The radio here says that there are 400 people being held as hostages.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:57 am

Apartment blocks, theatres, airliners, schools, busses, super markets, trains... This will go on forever, if no really radical event happens.

On one side you have an oldfashioned, scared, breaking up empire which tries at any price to keep the empire intact - same as the Roman Empire one and a half millennium ago.

On the other side you have an occupied territory, which doesn't want to be occupied, which holds a substantial minority of fanatics, who use their strange and misinterpreted religion in their warfare. And that way spreads disgust around the world.

The big question is, why does Russia want to keep the area within the empire? The answer is that releasing it might start an avalanche. Within weeks Russia might be reduced to a Moscow the size of Liechtenstein. Even if Liechtenstein is one of the most successful countries in the world, then that is simply not present Russian politics.

The Russian people have during the last few centuries been told (if not brainwashed) that "Big is Beautiful". And the center of the world is Moscow.

There are several other large countries in the world. One of them is fairly successful, but only because it is subdivided into fifty states with widespread self goverance.

For all these reasons we will get more and more used to all these acts of war in Russia. It will not end in our lifetime.
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kl911
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:38 am

QR332,

'''If they were Jewish would that have been written up there?'''

Jews liberate hostages, they don't take them hostage... big difference.


'''No, my freind, not many. Islam is a religion of over a billion, an odd 300,000 (this is the MAXIMUM number of Islamic terrorists there are now I belevie) in comparison to the rest is not many. Do not spread this kinda bullshit''''


300.000 terrorist is not many? It only took 19 to kill 3000 people in New York.
 
iakobos
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:13 am

Cool down QR, you are right in the sense that the Chechens are not fighting under the umbrella of religious pretences, they are fighting an all-out war against Moscow.

But this is not really the end of the story,
a/ we are told by many sources that they are funded, at least partially, by (so-called) Islamist movements, which at some point has been (or could have been) AQ
b/ we have also been told that 'friendly" foreign muslims fought alongside the Chechens
c/ we have been told that they want their independence and embrace the regime of an Islamic Republic
d/ their tactics are in many respect similar to the ones used in other places...
(i.e. hostages, suicide-attacks, etc...)

Difficult not to sense the bondage here, even if religion is not the root of the problem.

 
jutes85
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:20 am

Wow, looks like QR lost his mind.

If they were Jewish would that have been written up there?

Sure it would. But the difference is, that will never happen.
nothing
 
MD-90
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:26 am

That is just pure racism to all Muslims

Considering that Muslims do not form a race, I fail to see that distinction.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:19 am

Muslims who do not follow those teachings need to speak up and denounce such actions.

We don't have free speech, how can we denounce it?


I'd suggest that this is a big part of the problem, then.  Insane

And why should we denounce actions of fellow Muslim, as the average Muslim?

Thank you for illustrating yet ANOTHER big part of the problem - the "Why should I get involved against any Muslim for any reason?" argument.

I'm a Catholic, but I for DAMN sure will come out against anyone who blows up abortion clinics in the "name" of my religion! It's murder, and any sicko like that needs to be locked up.

If I knew of a whole faction of Catholic fundamentalist zealots who were plotting to blow up abortion clinics in the future, guess what? I'D CALL THE AUTHORITIES AND HAVE THEM LOCKED UP. What they're doing is wrong, and I'm no better than they are if I don't take action to stop them.

But you're so quick to say, "Oh no, they're fellow Muslims - I couldn't possibly come out against what they do!" even when you say their actions fly in the face of what your religion preaches!  Nuts

Do you see the disconnect here?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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7LBAC111
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 6:35 pm

Jutes85,

They can't accept the fact that they are the cause of many of the worlds security issues.

Its not that they can't accept it, its that they are blinded by the religion itself.

Schoenorama,

This is about the Russian occupation of what Chechens believe is their territory and nothing else.

I quote from the original article, An Islamist group, calling itself the Islambouli Brigades, claimed responsibility and described the attack as "part of the wave of support and assistance to the Muslim Chechens".


A few posters in this thread seem to think its the Chechens doing this - but REREAD the post. It clearly states that Islambouli Brigades claimed responsibility. And the keyword there ... ISLAM

The Chechens (the true Chechens) like any sane person on this planet, will be horrfied at what these people claim to be doing in their name.

7LBAC111

Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:17 pm

What I'm really afraid of is another spectacular but completely mismanaged rescue operation, so Putin can parade himself as tough on terrorism afterwards. It's no fun if you have to rely on your government who doesn't give a sh*t about you as an individual.


And why should we denounce actions of fellow Muslim, as the average Muslim?
Thank you for illustrating yet ANOTHER big part of the problem - the "Why should I get involved against any Muslim for any reason?" argument.


This strange sense of solidarity among Muslims is a mystery for me and I always wanted to have it explaned since I heard on the news that when they cought Saddam the biggest concern was not piss off Muslims all over the Middle East because they showed Saddam getting a medical check. They caught a dictator and a butcher and they still worry about him not looking too great on camera. Seems that religious affiliation is the ultimate criteria for judging one's actions

This is about the Russian occupation of what Chechens believe is their territory and nothing else.

It's not. The Chechen-Russian conflict evolved in many aspects, in its objective and its participatnts among others. Initially the motivation of the Chechens was I believe purely seeking of independence from Russia and was fought by Chechens only. It's hardly surprising that the style of war waged by the Russians brought the Chechens to the idea of seeking help among their brothers in faith. Maybe help was offered from abroad first, I don't know. Anyway, Chechnya became nest of islamic terrorism and training ground for AQ and all sorts of jihadists from the Middle East, because of that.
Where they seek inspiration, who gives them advice and change of tactics is obvious since suicide bombings are are almost like a signature of islamic terrorism.

"They illegally declared independence"

One can hardly teach an old dog new tricks. Why should they ask in Moscow for permission.

Another thing is that the radical, just believe strongly and support us, we´ll promise you a pie in the sky ideas, get supported mostly by the uneducated, poorer part of the society.

Isn't it interesting that in Germany, France, UK and other countries with large muslim minorities, radicals are recruited from often very well educated, well fed aand dressed and as far as material issues well secured 2nd ageneration of immigrants.

redefine Islam to fit into 21st century society and to reform it

Very true, but since there's no genereally respected organized hirerarchy and establishment within Islam, there's virtually no supreme "head of Islam" to suppport the reforms, should they ever become reality, with his authority or even provide some cofification for them.

There are several other large countries in the world. One of them is fairly successful, but only because it is subdivided into fifty states with widespread self goverance.

How about Brazil, Canada, Australia? They're not successful? And they don't even have an elected head of their respective country who believes was chosen by the God to become such elected official...
 
Russophile
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:49 pm

One can hardly teach an old dog new tricks. Why should they ask in Moscow for permission.

Ummm.....because it was the Russians who have had control over parts of the region which is today known as Chechnya for several hundreds of years. It was Russia which introduced a form of regional government in Chechnya. Russia has never given Chechnya any right to secede. When Yeltsin said that the nations which formed the USSR should pursue their sovereignty, Chechnya wrongly assumed this meant them too. There has NEVER been a country named Chechnya, and so long as the terrorist keep up their actions, there NEVER will be. Chechnya is as much a part of Russia as Hawaii is of America or Western Australia is to Australia.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:19 pm

Do you believe in your signature Russophile, or is it irony?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
qr332
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:31 pm

KL,
in comparison to the rest is not many. That does means they are a lot, but they are a tiny amount of Muslims.

Considering that Muslims do not form a race, I fail to see that distinction.

Oh, sorry, Anti-Islamic. Better?

I'd suggest that this is a big part of the problem, then.

I don't suggest it; I know it.

Thank you for illustrating yet ANOTHER big part of the problem - the "Why should I get involved against any Muslim for any reason?" argument.

I'm a Catholic, but I for DAMN sure will come out against anyone who blows up abortion clinics in the "name" of my religion! It's murder, and any sicko like that needs to be locked up.


You misunderstood me; I meant that not every Muslim has to pay for what others have done.

I'D CALL THE AUTHORITIES AND HAVE THEM LOCKED UP. What they're doing is wrong, and I'm no better than they are if I don't take action to stop them.

Difference is I dont know anyone planning to bomb anywhere.

Its not that they can't accept it, its that they are blinded by the religion itself.

See why I got pissed off in my last post? Answer this question - do you know Islam and what the Quran teaches. A few fanatics and now me, as a Muslim, I am responsible for worlds security issues.

The Chechens (the true Chechens) like any sane person on this planet, will be horrfied at what these people claim to be doing in their name.

And I myself am disgusted by what they are doing in Islams name, so are many other Muslims.

I'm sick of this, but let me put it this way - are all Americans responsible for what the KKK did back at the time? So why are all us Muslims responsible for this?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Russophile
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:47 pm

Anyway, should anyway care enough, 16 are now confirmed killed, and 26 have been released.

I'll leave you all to arguing over irrelevant details.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:00 am

for several hundreds of years

Since 1859 to be specific, 1783 at the best.

Do you believe in your signature Russophile, or is it irony?

I think he does believe it, but he's pu**y enough to admit it...

 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:10 am

Russophile,
While during the 16th to 19th century the other imperialist nations in Europe conquered their colonial empires overseas (and geographicaly clearly seperate from the mother country), Russia conquered it´s colonies right across the border.
Chchnia has babout the same right to declare it´s independence as any other region on earth for me e.g. Bavaria could declare it´s independence from Germany anytime, all that has to be sorted is what happens to federal property on it´s land, where the tax payers of the rest of Germany were paying for).
Do you think the American settlers asked King George of England for permission if the could declare themselves independent?
If they´ve ever been a independent nation state before or not is totaly irrelevant.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
slider
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:27 am

Jan,
I really enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your taking the time to contribute to the discussion as I am admitedly not terribly up to speed on Chechnya.

With that said, however, I hope the response is swift, decisive and that Russia drops the hammer--hard. Taking hostages is a cowardly act, and not something that will endear the Chechans to getting sympathy for any drive to be an independent nation.

And this may very well be a battle of geography, but the underpinnings are uncomfortably rooted in religion. Chalk up yet another in the vast majority of hostilities around the world that are directly perpetrated by Muslims. Ah, the religion of peace. There may be peaceful practicioners of Islam, but when the Koran demands that infidels either convert or be killed, you'll have to pardon my skepticism. Especially when most of the Muslim world silently sits and watches.
 
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:39 am

Thank you for illustrating yet ANOTHER big part of the problem - the "Why should I get involved against any Muslim for any reason?" argument.

I'm a Catholic, but I for DAMN sure will come out against anyone who blows up abortion clinics in the "name" of my religion! It's murder, and any sicko like that needs to be locked up.


You misunderstood me; I meant that not every Muslim has to pay for what others have done.


That's not the point - it's that every good Muslim has a duty to stand up for their religion and not let a small (as a percentage of the total number of Muslims in the world), extreme band of zealots corrupt what their religion stands for.

I'm sick of this, but let me put it this way - are all Americans responsible for what the KKK did back at the time?

No, not at all - but then again, the rest of America stood up against them, shamed them publicly, and held them accountable to the law - something that the rest of the Muslims aren't doing.

So why are all us Muslims responsible for this?

Because you haven't taken it upon yourselves as a group to forcefully denounce these zealots, treat them with shame and disdain for dishonoring what your religion stands for, and bringing them to justice.

And I don't just mean once in awhile. A token condemnation here and there isn't good enough.

Unfortunately, the quiet acquiescence going on in the Muslim world smacks of your tacit acceptance of the actions of these extremists.

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:46 am

Slider,

We have lots of Muslims living in Germany (mostly Turkish), in fact in Berlin (my home town) Islam is the second biggest religion right after the Lutherans, but ahead of the Roman Catholics. We had problems with the first and second generation of Turkish immigrants (who often came from rural, backward, uneducated, feudal Turkey, after all the factories and builders recruiting the Turks during the 60s and early 70s wanted labourers to do the dirty jobs Germans didn´t want to do anymore, not PHDs, most of the loaders at CGN are Turkish). When they had children here, they went to regular school, but there was trouble between religious parents and esp. the girls, once they reached their teens. There were stories about forced marriages, killings and fights (e.g. a German teenage boy, who dared to date a Turkish girl (and many Turkish women a very pretty), being beaten up by her brothers and herself sometimes killed if she lost virginity, for protecting the "honour of the family"). Nowadays, with the fourth generation in the making, these stories are getting rare.
Another thing is that Islam doesn´t have a central doctrine and control concerning the interpretation of the Quran as e.g. the Roman Catholic church. There are lots of different Muslim groups, some of them hating each other´s guts (Al Qaeda as Wahabites, a very fundamentalist Sunni branch, mainly based in Saudi Arabia versus the Shi´ite Muslims from Iran. They consider each other as heretics, very similar to the Protestants and Catholics during the 15th century in Europe). Osama Bin Laden might have hoped to unite ALL Muslims under his leadership, but this will never happen. Also mainstream Islam in Turkey, Bosnia or Indonesia is completely different from the Islam preached in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.
For myself I like the interpretation of the Alevits, a branch of the Shi´a Muslims, found mainly in Turkey and Syria.
For them religion is a private matter, they don´t even built mosques, and since you don´t have to show your religion, just to live it, women usualy don´t wear the hijab (I talked to several members of this branch) and are getting the same education as the men. Since they believe in religion as a personal matter they are also strictly in favour of seperation of religion and government.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Russophile
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:51 am

Since 1859 to be specific, 1783 at the best.

Good to see you have been getting your info from a website. Because only one who has done this would know the exact dates. Anyway, 1858/9 is when Russia exerted total control over the region. 1783 is when the Chechens agreed to unite with Russia. But Russian territory and influence in the region goes back as far as the 1400s. So yes, it is several hundred years. Try reading some actual history books, or some websites which aren't totally pro-Chechen (and give very little facts), and you will learn that fact.

I think he does believe it, but he's pu**y enough to admit it..

To some extent, I do believe it. So what? What exactly does my signature have to do with this discussion?

Chchnia has babout the same right to declare it´s independence as any other region on earth for me e.g. Bavaria could declare it´s independence from Germany anytime, all that has to be sorted is what happens to federal property on it´s land, where the tax payers of the rest of Germany were paying for).

Again, Chechnya has no right to declare any independence. Without knowing the German constitution, Bavaria may have that right to secede. But Bavaria is a political unit with a long history. Chechnya was never a political entity, but a general region -- the name of the region is taken from the Chechen people who lived across the region (including in North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Dagestan, etc).

Any chance they had of independence they have pissed in the wind by turning their country into a terrorist enclave, bombing many targets in Russia proper and its constituent regions, and also by participating in destabilizing activities in surrounding regions which the territory.

Additionally, the region of which Chechnya is in, is a region became part of Russia either through a treaty with the local population or as a result of the spoils of war.

But ok, let's force the Russians to give up Chechnya. At the same time, let's force the Americans to give up Hawaii. Let's force Chile to give back its northern regions to Peru. Let's force Georgia to give up Ajaria. Let's force Moldova to give up the Trans-Dnestr region. Let's force Spain to give up it's Moroccan enclaves. Let's force Britain to give up Gibraltar.

All of these are territories which were obtained either through treaties or wars. So should they too not be given their independence?

Or are you going to say that these regions should be allowed to vote to answer that question? Well, Chechnya never had a vote to become independent. One of the radical politicans declared that independence. They most certainly never had a concensus from the population for independence to be declared.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:57 am

If a majority of the population of a certain region wants to become independent, then it is their natural right to declare themselves independent, full stop.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ly7e7
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:03 am

To some extent, I do believe it. So what? What exactly does my signature have to do with this discussion?

It has as much to do with this discussion as Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Chechen/Islamic Rebels Hold 200 Children Hostage

Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:04 am

Again, Chechnya has no right to declare any independence.

What on Earth makes you think that you are the ones to say who has the right to be independent an who has not? Ever heard of "right of self-determination"?

What exactly does my signature have to do with this discussion?

At least it makes your opinions "fit in the picture" just nicely...

Actually, it raises a legitimate question of why you don't get deleted. I'm sure if my signature would be something like "Nazism is the way of the future" my membership would be history as we speak.

[Edited 2004-09-02 20:35:48]

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