tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:53 am

First off, I want to say this isn't an anti-Bush post, but rather an anti-War in Iraq post. I absolutely supported the war in Afghanistan but only wish we had concentrated our forces and intent in finishing the war there.

But my BIGGEST problem with this war is that ultimately there was something like $200 Billion dollars spent on it, which in the time of a dreary economy, the money could have been better spent. It could have been spent on stuff like health care, education, and helping fix poverty! Poverty for crying out loud, here we are the richest country in the world, and we have 30 some odd million people in our country who are not getting enough food everyday. That absolutely disgusts me, I just only wish we would fix the problems in our country first. We have people getting rotten educations, senior citizens not getting medicine, and I can guarantee you that if that $200 billion had gone to fixing that, we would be a lot better off now, and Bush would probably have no problem whatsoever being re-elected.

I also understand that 9-11 changed things in the world, but I still don't believe the war in Iraq was justified, especially since we weren't finished in Afghanistan. I'm just starting to get this disgusted feeling with the state of affairs in our own country, I wan't our government to fix it up before anything else.
NO URLS in signature
 
AnsettB727
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:19 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:25 am

I sympathise, Tbar220. No matter what one's political persuasion, you can't deny that the States could kind of use a universal health care plan for all (as opposed to scores of millions going without health insurance).
 
LHMark
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 2:18 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:26 am

Tbar,

Why do you hate America?

Signed, 1/2 of A.net
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
wietse
Posts: 3630
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2001 12:49 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:29 am

Why do you hate America?

Because he is being rational instead of overly patriotic.

Signed,

The other half of A.net
Wietse de Graaf
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13385
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:37 am

No matter what one's political persuasion, you can't deny that the States could kind of use a universal health care plan for all

We already have one.

It's called making enough money to pay for your medical bills.

Oh, I'm sorry - you meant a PUBLICLY-FUNDED health care plan, didn't you? My bad.  Insane
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:42 am

It's called making enough money to pay for your medical bills.

Do you close your eyes when you walk by the poor, or do you look away?

Or do you spit on them?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
FJWH
Posts: 922
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 4:50 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:52 am

Wietse just entered my respected user list!

Tjap!
FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13385
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:57 am

It's called making enough money to pay for your medical bills.

Do you close your eyes when you walk by the poor, or do you look away?

Or do you spit on them?


Typical liberal bullshit - if I don't like the idea of publicly-funded healthcare, then by God that MUST mean that I avert my eyes from and/or spit on the poor, right?  Insane

C'mon DLKAPA, even you're better than to sink to tossing out this drivel.

And not that it's your business, but I've helped many a poor person get a job so they could get back on their feet. Can you say the same?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:00 am

EA CO AS, one factor that distinguishes a modern and cohesive society from a collection of individuals under a common flag and anthem is/are the social mechanisms put in place to ensure the solidarity between the citizens.

If your soldiers had the same mentality as you show, you would have no army re: the hell with the others as long as I have my rifle and my ammunition.
One day you might loose the first or run short of the latter...do not think it cannot happen to you...unless your name is Gates or the likes.

Besides the selfishness (and everybody is to a certain degree), understanding and accepting to leave part of your gains to the administration for social purposes is certainly more "human" than accepting to pay for tanks and planes (and the occasional war).




 
dan-air
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 6:13 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:09 am

But my BIGGEST problem with this war is that ultimately there was something like $200 Billion dollars spent on it,

Dude, the $200 Billion is just for openers! Supporting the current deployment levels and rebuilding costs has a burn rate of what? $1 billion per week? More?
Where does that dough come from? Any ideas Bush fans?
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:14 am

Well, to use just one example:

US Postal Service. Government ran? Yes!

Slow...inefficient.....indifferent service....disorganized.....expensive, old, dilapidated, outdated equipment.


United Parcel Service: Government ran? No! But it does basically the same thing that the USPS does, only faster, better, cheaper, and with better service, with the best modern equipment available today.


Hmmm....what makes them so different?
 
Adria
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 7:53 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:16 am

"But my BIGGEST problem with this war is that ultimately there was something like $200 Billion dollars spent on it, which in the time of a dreary economy, the money could have been better spent."..............finally someone is listening to the people around the world which know this a lot longer.

"I absolutely supported the war in Afghanistan but only wish we had concentrated our forces and intent in finishing the war there."............I see that you have been thinking about this subject so let me just ask you one thing: Do you know how many people died in Afghanistan during the war?? Have you ever thought about that? I hear a lot about those people that sadly died on 9-11 but when are you going to think about those poor people in Afghanistan and Iraq????? They didn't wanted any war!! And the number of people that were killed(in Afghanistan and Iraq) is far higher!!!!!
You have got all the CIA and the military is watching every square foot of those countries and they thought that bin laden was in Afghanistan???This war was only because they had to destroy something!!!

And were are those atom bombs and other weapons of mass destruction? 95% of the world population knew that Iraq hasn't got any! Know even the president says that there are no bombs! And know AGAIN the majority supports Bush! Arnie comes and gives a little speech and people are all thrilled. How "stupid" must you be to listen to this crap! Someone without any education is a politician. Where else in the world can that be??

Let's forget for a second about saddam and bin laden and think of those(still) living in Afghanistan and Iraq. Every day we talk about the people that died on 9-11, no one seems to care about those civilians that died in Afghanistan and Iraq! And don't give me this "we wanted to help Iraq by removing saddam" we all know that oil was the main reason. And if you don't believe me than ask yourself why there is no military action in North Korea?? They say they have the atomic bomb and yet the US government wants to talk with them.

I don't hate America and I don't hate the American people, but those thing are wrong!
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:22 am

95% of the world population knew that Iraq hasn't got any!

Indulge me.

Exactly how is it statistically more likely that any one random person-say in Uganda...or Burkina Faso...or Sri Lanka going to know this and your average American not? How did the rest of the world get privy to the inner goings-on of Iraq that somehow the US missed?
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Matt D

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:35 am

Matt D: Exactly how is it statistically more likely that any one random person-say in Uganda...or Burkina Faso...or Sri Lanka going to know this and your average American not? How did the rest of the world get privy to the inner goings-on of Iraq that somehow the US missed?

obviously unreliable and unplausible information + propaganda + gullible public = people believe

obviously unreliable and unplausible information +/- propaganda - gullible public = people won´t believe


 
WellHung
Posts: 3299
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:50 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:38 am

Interesting how some people have no problem with the government spending their hard-earned money on an unjustified war, but once someone suggests it be used to help people in their own country, they immediately get defensive.

As the thread starter said, if Bush didn't so sorely miscalculate this war and spent the money on helping Americans that don't have oil ties instead (or didn't spend it at all), the election would just be a technicality.

Matt D - where did you get your information? Try walking into a UPS store with a letter and $.37 and see how far it gets you. Sending a Letter UPS 2nd day from LA to NY costs approximately 4x more than USPS priority mail. A package costs almost 2x as much. I have never had a letter or package lost or damaged using USPS. Try collecting on UPS insurance if they damage something. Then you'll really know what red tape is all about.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13385
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:39 am

obviously unreliable and unplausible information

That information was apparently so "obviously" unreliable and implausible that the intelligence agencies of Great Britain and Russia believed it, along with the U.S. intelligence community.  Insane

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Adria
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 7:53 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:40 am

"How did the rest of the world get privy to the inner goings-on of Iraq that somehow the US missed? " if they watched the TV when Powell was showing the "evidence" that those weapons exist to the UN and the UN didn't believe!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

EA CO AS

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:44 am

EA CO AS: That information was apparently so "obviously" unreliable and implausible that the intelligence agencies of Great Britain and Russia believed it, along with the U.S. intelligence community.

So how many russian troops do you see in Iraq?

Seriously, both services had nothing convincing. Everybody distrusted Saddam, but nobody had any reliable intelligency about actual transgressions. Small wonder since those did not exist.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:44 am

which in the time of a dreary economy

Because he is being rational





...hmm, slight contradiction we seem to have here  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:46 am

Do you close your eyes when you walk by the poor, or do you look away?

Or do you spit on them?


I consider myself a religious man (Jewish), and if anything my religion says to support the poor in whatever ways you can. To walk by them and look away when instead you can be giving a helping hand is shameful really. I think this could apply with all aspects of life.

Now, I'm not saying that the government should be religious, but in some sense of the morals and thoughts that religion puts forth, our society can better its morals and ideals. For example, helping the poor! Helping the needy, who for some reason or another can't make it on their own.

I don't think its liberal bullshit, it think its the good of helping other people. God knows I've been blessed with a really easy upbringing, and the least I can do or should be willing to do is help others out when they need it.

***

On the same topic of religion, since my people were once slaves, why shouldn't I support the freeing the Iraqi people? Its actually something I have considered, and on that note would have supported the war in Iraq. IF that was the pretense as to why we went to war, but it obviously wasn't and if you ask me this was not the original intentions of our government (as we all know from the UN speeches and presidential speeches, etc.). If our government made it clear without and fogginess that our intent in Iraq was to go in and "free" the Iraqi people, then I would have supported it. Even if it did mean spending those $200 billion dollars on another country.

My freedom now from slavery as a Jew, my taste of what its like to live a normal life, a life of freedom in the United States is enough for me to think that every other citizen of this world should experience it. But I feel we've been going about it completely the wrong way.
NO URLS in signature
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:47 am

I see nothing wrong with helping people who are legitimately in need. This includes people who have been stricken with unexpected illness or injury, a housewife who's husband of 30 years dies or abandons her, a teenager or kid who is a victim of abuse and/or abandoned by his/her parents, and so on.

However, we should not give one thin dime to those who are "in need" as a result of their own carelessness, irresponsibility, or laziness.

This includes, but is not limited to:

illegal aliens (including the children. As a parent, it is your responsibility to make sure you can take care of your kids. If we are to "take care" of these kids too, we will do so by taking them away from the parents and placing them for adoption. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.)

multi generation welfare recipients

teenage/out of wedlock parents/children

kids who were more concerned about looking cool than doing their homework

people who continue having kids despite not being able to support them on their own income.

alcohol/drug abusers who think that mandatory rehab/schooling are "against their will".

Third strike criminals.

 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:49 am

ConcordeBoy,

I'm sure you could put a little more thought into your post, come on, give it a try. It wouldn't hurt really. Really, a little thought? A little comprehension? A little critical analysis about what we're talking about?

My thoughts are if you don't have anything good to say...
NO URLS in signature
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13385
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:49 am

Try walking into a UPS store with a letter and $.37 and see how far it gets you. Sending a Letter UPS 2nd day from LA to NY costs approximately 4x more than USPS priority mail. A package costs almost 2x as much.

Thanks for highlighting the inherent differences in the mindsets, as well.

You've got your mind made up that sending a letter should never cost more than $0.37, no matter if it's a government-run entity or a privately-run one.

If you only have that amount, then sure - the USPS can help. But if you want service at their office locations, be sure to bring a good book. They're not too conveniently located these days either.

On the other hand, while UPS is more expensive, you can find them in more locations, they're staffed to have very quick service, and will offer better service.

The same thing could be applied to healthcare - gov't funded would be "cheap" to users (but paid in ways you don't see up front like excessive taxes), but inefficient, with long waits and inconvenient scheduling.

The current system is more expensive to users up-front, but you can get service on-demand and with far less waiting and inefficiency involved.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
bragi
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun May 27, 2001 5:17 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:51 am

It's a very sad state of affairs.
All those money are used to rebuild a nation where the majority hates America, meanwhile millions of people in the US are without health insurance. Good/inexpensive health care is something that everybody should enjoy, and fiancial situation shouldn't matter.

How can anyone justify this war, regarding the loss of human life and the cost?
I fully sympathize with you Tbar.
Muhammad Ali: "Superman don’t need no seat belt." Flight Attendant: "Superman don’t need no airplane, either."
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:52 am

However, we should not give one thin dime to those who are "in need" as a result of their own carelessness, irresponsibility, or laziness.

Alright, that makes sense. But how in the world do find out who is "legitimate" for government aid or not? How do we sort it out, without making more of a bureaucratic hassle and mess? If you ask me, its just not possible, considering the numbers and statistics we've seen (15% of our population living in poverty).

When donating or helping the poor, you cannot be selective. The true intent is to help the people who need it, whether you feel it is appropriate or not. Because you can only hope and pray that it is doing good and going to the right people.

And if you ask me, eventually (it may take a long time), it will help out. Obviously some will go to waste, and some people are just lost causes who will never get out of the gutter, but that should not be up to us to decide.

Considering we're spending $200 billion dollars in Iraq, would you have a problem with that same amount of money instead being spent on civil programs in the U.S.?
NO URLS in signature
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:55 am

Bragi,

You also bring up an interesting point. On the same thought, all this money in Iraq is surely going to rebuild the country. It has given millions of people freedom from Sadaam's regime, and in that sense is money well spent (if it indeed is spent for that and not for corporation and personal gains, which I suspect more and more). So many conflicting opinions about this war. I would have no problem with this, except it all goes back to the pretense under which this war was started, and that messes everything up.
NO URLS in signature
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:57 am

Good question. Sorry, I don't think that a blanket "all you can eat" buffet of money is the answer. I just don't buy your "well we don't know who needs it or not, so let's just give it to everyone" philosophy.

As a taxpayer, I just can't.

This is one rare instance where I think that a one time cost of establishing another bureaucracy to run background checks to determine eligibility along the guidelines I mentioned will pay for itself and then some in the long run by weeding out those ineligible (which IMO is about 70% of those currently living on the dole).
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:05 am

Matt D,

Well maybe, I just don't have faith that government bureaucracies can be anything but inefficient and not worth our time. But maybe that can change, hopefully. I just think we have a difference of opinion on this matter.
NO URLS in signature
 
Adria
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 7:53 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:10 am

The governemnt things are really not worth spending our time, but that's only my opinion
 
WellHung
Posts: 3299
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:50 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:10 am

Only a complete idiot would pay 10x more than they have to (that's the difference between a stamp and UPS's lowest tier service) just to circumvent something government related because of some myth that anything private is inherently better.

Last time I checked, nearly every convenience store, card store, etc. sells stamps. I have also never waited more than 10-15 minutes at the post office. And unless you're hiding out in some cave in Afghanistan, there's a post office close enough. There are 5 post offices within 3 miles of my house compared to 10 UPS locations. When it comes down to it, I'd drive the 0.2 miles further and save my 50-90%.

But this is about the war, so finish any discussion somewhere else...
 
AA7771stClass
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 9:26 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:14 am

Regarding the USPS, sometimes we have to do what is helpful, not what will make money. If the U.S. would focus less on profits and more on people who knows how much of a better place this country would be. Anyway, similarly to the arts, it's ok to run a business losing money sometimes just for the good of society. Yes UPS can do a lot but I guarantee you they would charge more when they had to start delivering to every dirt-road mailbox in America...in fact, being a smart corporation, they might not even go at all! Yes we're in agreement that the system is inherently flawed (which system isn't by the way...?) but that doesn't mean that privatization is the answer. Just a thought...
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:15 am

I think the only difference of opinion here is question of eligibility and entitlement.

You think that anyone and everyone should get it.

I say no. If we are going to spend [government ran, taxpayer] money on "helping" people, then I say we only give it to those who *really* need it. And as I said, people who are in dire straits as a result of their own doing (laziness, carelessness, irresponsibility) shouldn't be entitled to anything. Sink or swim baby.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:23 am

Most european societies are being remodeled right now (or have been, recently) not to "sink or swim" but to "we won´t let you sink, but you´ll have to work with us!".

Social cruelty should not be part of a modern society any more than slavery or human sacrifices.

[Edited 2004-09-06 23:26:13]
 
User avatar
n229nw
Posts: 2022
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:46 am

Thanks for the "other half of A.net" comment Wietse. You beat me to it!

Here's a thought for all those people who have shifted their justification of the war to the idea of "liberation" and away from the bogus WMD claim (and don't forget that whatever chemical weapons Iraq DID have were provided by Donald Rumsfeld and Co for use against the Iranians--love that picture of him shaking hands with Sadam Hussein back in the day!!!--)

I'd never try to defend Hussein, he was a terrible dictator who did cruelly mistreat his people, but there are practical considerations that have to come into play when making the decision to go to war against a sovereign country and against the dictates of international law. Here are some that weren't considered:

1.) Is a protracted civil war better than a dicatorship? What right does the US have to make this decision? After all, under Hussein political dissidents suffered horribly, but the majority of people had power, water, etc. and could walk down the street safely.

2.) Is a US puppet government a good thing in Iraq? You better be sure American and many other Western newspapers won't be reporting on all the human rights abuses THIS govenment perpetrates. When Saddam killed a militant political dissident (including his enemies the Islamic extremists) we would say the dissident was a victim. When the US or its puppet kill those who resist, all we have to do is use the magic "terrorist" word and no one questions extra-judicial killings, right? Anyone branded a terrorist on paper by anyone is guilty until proven innocent or until killed.

3.) From a selfish perspective: Did this war make America safer? Of course not. It has already killed several times the number of civilians as 9/11, and from the point of view of someone who has nothing and lives in the area, watching babies on TV with their limbs shot off by stray US bombs and all the rest, that in itself is a great recruiting point for Al-Qaida, etc.

For the people on here who say, it doesn't matter "they" (Musliums/Arabs, etc.) hate us anyway, I say this: there is horrible propaganda on both sides. But people tend to believe propaganda when they are scared and feel like innocent victims. Just as 9/11 made people believe the crap that the Bush administration spouts out, so innocent deaths on the other side make people believe they are vitimized and have to react (This in NO WAY justifies terrorism, just explains why it happens)

Want to keep the cycle of revenge going forever until we all die? Then vote for Bush!
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:00 am

Social cruelty

Defined as what?

Not forcing responsible taxpayers to foot the bill for those who are, as I've already said irresponsible, careless, and lazy?

Sorry, but if you think that my opposition to such programs is "cruel", "barbaric", and "living in the Dark Ages", then guess what:

I am a cruel, barbaric person living in the Dark Ages.

I guess it's always easy to be "compassionate" and altruistic....

as long as you are spending someone elses money.

[Edited 2004-09-07 01:08:47]
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6408
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:13 am

$200bn, that could ease for instance health care budgets somewhat, but as a onetimer it won't change the world.

$200bn is $700 per US citizen. Last week I bought new glasses, they were cosiderably more expensive than that.

It seems to me that some people interpreted the "war success criteria" in a very simple - if not primitive - way: If WMD were found or not.

What we know is:
- Gas was used against Iran
- Gas was used against the Khurds
- Israel and Saudi Arabia don't need to look after Scud missiles from Iraq any longer
- Kuwait will not again be occupied and destroyed
- There will not be a future bill to be paid for freeing Kuwait
- No WMD will be produced any longer in Iraq
- No neighbor country needs to fear Iraq any longer
- No costly and risky patrols in the former "no fly zones" are needed any longer
- Iraqi individuals are at present receiving education about how to run a normal country from the USA, Britain, Denmark and other countries, something which they last time did roughly 4000 years ago
- There are still internal disagreements in Iraq about how to build the country, which still creates violence.

What we don't know:
- Were the WMDs used up, destructed, or hidden (inside or outside Iraq)?
- How fast will the Iraqi people catch up and build a normal country?

When we put that war into money, then there are also a lot of "savings" involved, which have to be subtracted from the $200bn.

The major problem was that George Bush Sr left it to his son to finish off the 1991 war. I have read a lot of excuses for not finishing that war. Some of those excuses probably had some validity, still they were all bad.

One phrase, which is often used here in Denmark - especially in politics, is "mands minde" meaning "[duration of] man's memory". One day a member of parliament asked about how long time "man's memory" could be considered to be. Another MP answered promply: "Two weeks".

That seems to fit perfectly well on a lot of aspects concerning the debate about the Iraqi conflict.

But those of us, who do not remember Iraqi political details back to at least 1979, suffer a severe handicap when judging present dilemmas.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Matt D

Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:21 am

Matt D: Defined as what?

"Sink or swim" basically sums it up. Even in our modern societies people can get into bad situations even while they do their best to stay afloat on their own. Not letting them go under is simply human. Hardly anybody is advocating the "free for all" system that´s being quoted all the time. Of course differences need to be made. But we can´t afford to let people slip too far with everybody looking the other way.


Matt D: Not forcing responsible taxpayers to foot the bill for those who are, as I've already said irresponsible, careless, and lazy?

Making that distinction properly is the whole point.


Matt D: I am a cruel, barbaric person living in the Dark Ages.

Don´t let me stop you from coming out! Big grin


Matt D: I guess it's always easy to be "compassionate" and altruistic.... as long as you are spending someone elses money.

It´s always easy talking about those lazy, stupid poor people - as long as you don´t happen to be one of them.

 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Tue Sep 07, 2004 8:29 am

Typical liberal bullshit - if I don't like the idea of publicly-funded healthcare, then by God that MUST mean that I avert my eyes from and/or spit on the poor, right?

No, I don't mind that you don't support public healthcare, it's just your attitude towards people of less social standard which seems to be prevalent save for:

And not that it's your business, but I've helped many a poor person get a job so they could get back on their feet. Can you say the same?

I'm just a college kid, when I get out, I plan to.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
slider
Posts: 6805
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:22 am

Tbar's right.

Lord knows the $9 TRILLION + that we've already spent on the war on poverty just isn't enough.

 Yeah sure
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13385
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:20 am

Typical liberal bullshit - if I don't like the idea of publicly-funded healthcare, then by God that MUST mean that I avert my eyes from and/or spit on the poor, right?

No, I don't mind that you don't support public healthcare, it's just your attitude towards people of less social standard which seems to be prevalent


DLKAPA, I don't like the idea of being oppressively taxed to finance anyone - rich, poor, young, old, whatever. I don't have an attitude towards people of "less social standard," as you put it. Hell, I'm an airline employee - I consider myself to be part of "the poor" when it comes right down to it!

But even though my healthcare premiums have risen and even though I don't make much money, I don't see a reason for me (or anyone else for that matter) to be taxed at a higher rate in the name of providing free healthcare.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Guest

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:47 am

I don't see a reason for me (or anyone else for that matter) to be taxed at a higher rate in the name of providing free healthcare.

But you're being taxed at a higher rate to fund the Iraq war.

So if you had to pick one...

B
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13385
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:00 am

I don't see a reason for me (or anyone else for that matter) to be taxed at a higher rate in the name of providing free healthcare.

But you're being taxed at a higher rate to fund the Iraq war.

So if you had to pick one...


I'd choose national security over paying for someone's doctor visits.

How about you?


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Guest

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:49 am

Health care for MY country. Not "liberation" for another.

Besides, we're less safe now than before Iraq. Our enemies are more determined. Don't believe me? Just wait, you'll see.

B
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13385
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:28 am

Our enemies are more determined. Don't believe me? Just wait, you'll see.


Wow - you almost sound like you're hopeful for a terrorist attack within the U.S. just so you can prove your point!  Nuts
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Guest

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:41 am

Hopeful? God no. I don't want it to be me or anyone I love. I don't want it to happen again period.

I'm just not brainwashed by this adminsitration into thinking we're safer when we're not.

B
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:00 am

Health care for MY country. Not "liberation" for another

OK so we have health care here, and it is available to everyone. Our system may not be the easiest to work, and it may require that more people actually contribute to their own well-being...but hospitals must see you and treat you when you arrive for an emergency..medicare/medicaid provides a safety net, that while it can be improved is also underused. I live in a neighborhood where the problems with people not willing to contribute to their own wellbeing is easy to see. If you have cable television and have the money to buy grass, you have the spending money available to pay for a HMO that will provide the same level of service if not better than Canadas universal single payer system. Education and acceptance of responsibility will go far to correcting our system.

The "" used over the word liberation indicates that nonrevking is unwilling to share the blessings of liberty with others around the world, as well as a basic understanding of what our soldiers are fighting and sacrificing for over there. The fundamental truth is that if we don't free oppressed people they will continue to resent us and try to hurt us in an effort to force us to share what we have with them under their terms and conditions. We already are the worlds greatest donor of aid and charity, but so many political and religious leaders and groups around the world seek to gain personally from this largesse, and they will go to great lengths to ensure their own people do not see the truth that is this "ALL THIS FREE STUFF IS COMING FROM A FREE NATION THAT HAS GROWN BECAUSE IT HAS A GREAT SYSTEM OF SELFGOVERNMENT OF BY AND FOR THE PEOPLE!"

Argue with me here, tell me that our system is not the greatest out there, show me how we oppressed and unable to voice our opinions here, show me where the thought police will come to our doors in the night and disappear us to some gulag where we will be reeducated or executed so we will no longer present a threat to the powers that be.

Show me all the poverty in our nation where the poor drive themselves in their privately owned cars to the welfare offices and wear hundred dollar sneakers while buying things they don't need to survive. Poor here is rich elsewhere. And we are so free and rich that we seek continually to improve things for ourselves. We have debates and free elections to decide the course of events. We even allow people to cast aspersions toward our leaders and call into question their legitimacy all without fear of physical harm or loss of franchise.

Liberating the Iraqis and Afghans will go even farther in that we will be able to stop spending money containing the evil if we help excise it and provide an opportunity to grow democracy and freedom. Until then, we will have to be vigilant against attack because they will keep coming after us, and they will grow more desperate as we continue to hurt them. More attacks will happen, so pull your head out of the sand and help us try to prevent them and deal with the aftermath.

[Edited 2004-09-08 01:16:10]

[Edited 2004-09-08 01:18:16]
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Dl021

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:08 am

Dl021, please use paragraphs, once in a while; Your posts are quite hard to read.

Thank you.  Smile
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:14 am

Klaus, You are correct. I will edit the previous post, and try to remember this in the future. SOmetimes I ge tto writing and submit quickly as my wife is chasing me to do a chore (I have to empty the litterbox now.)

Vielen Danke. Ian (I hope I spelled that right)
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: My Biggest Problem With The War In Iraq

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:17 am

Preben,
Are you sure you are wearing the right glasses ?

- Gas was used against Iran > was also used by French, Belgians, British, Germans, Austro-Hungarians, etc, etc...
- Gas was used against the Khurds > gas is indeed a bad thing, the next oppressor should only use conventional weapons, this is authorized.
Firearms of a caliber exceeding 9mm cannot be used against individuals, though there is no restriction against concentrations of "enemy troops".
- Israel and Saudi Arabia don't need to look after Scud missiles from Iraq any longer > 13 year old story
- Kuwait will not again be occupied and destroyed > any idea why Saddam invaded Kuwait, which by the way was not destroyed but for the oil fields during the (fast) retreat ?
- There will not be a future bill to be paid for freeing Kuwait > nobody knows
- No WMD will be produced any longer in Iraq > already since 13 years, and you dont know what the future will bring.
- No neighbor country needs to fear Iraq any longer > already since 13 years, and again you dont know what the future will bring
- No costly and risky patrols in the former "no fly zones" are needed any longer > costly yes, risky perhaps, useful ??? yes perhaps, in mapping everything and destroying every radar site and SAM batteries who dared to plug in. And it saved a lot of money and pilots later...
- Iraqi individuals are at present receiving education about how to run a normal country from the USA, Britain, Denmark and other countries, something which they last time did roughly 4000 years ago > a crash course perhaps ?
- There are still internal disagreements in Iraq about how to build the country, which still creates violence. > disagreements ? a dozen, two, three, four dozen deads per day is due to a disagreement ? 18,000 (mostly) civilians is the consequence of a disagreement ?

of course, everything is relative...
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Dl021

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:24 am

Almost: Vielen Dank! ("Many thanks")
It´s Danke! only as in "thanks!".

You´re welcome.  Smile

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Scorpio and 26 guests