Zweed
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European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:42 pm

While I still lived in Sweden I was a big believer in all this crap the politicians talk about whats so good about the European Union. The possibilites for any citizen of the union to move and work wherever he wants in the union.
Ok, so far so good.
I could move to the Netherlands. That part worked great. At first I didnt have my own contract for the apartment, my girlfriend is the owner of the apartment. This meant that I could not register as a inhabitant of the Netherlands and after a certain amount of time I would have been more or less illegal.
I got my own contract and I could register. Getting a social security number was no problem.
Getting a job was easier than opening up a bank account.
At the moment I dont have a permanent permit of residence, this means that, despite I am working, I have my own contract for an apartment, I am paying taxes and I am registered as an inhabitant I am still not able to rent a DVD at the videostore and after trying to get a contract at 3 different mobile phone providors I finally got accepted by T-mobile. One of the few companies that seem to have understood what european integration is about.
Everywhere I go and where I am obligated to show my identity my Swedish national identity card is being questionned (is this real, show me your passport etc)
So, I went for a permanent permit of residence. Easier said than done. I have been at the city hall 3 times now. All 3 times they have told me different things on what papers I need from Sweden.

One day, maybe one day I hope I wont be treated like I was one of Saddam Husseins men trying to start his new life in Europe.
 
Zweed
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:48 pm

To our american friend. This is no lets bash europe thread. go somewhere else then.

I jsut wanted to start a discussion about european integration in the union.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:05 pm

Many European countries still have the Napoleonic regulations about registering where you live etc etc. For arriving foreigners this can be a real pain. When I moved to AMS, fortunately our company secretary had an excellent relationship with the people down at immigration, and had all my paperwork sorted out really quickly. I still had to go down to the Immigration place and wait with the indigent Armenians, but the process itself was pretty straightforward. I also had to go to the Vreemdelingen Politie to register my presence, but that was just a stamp in my passport.

It was the same story in France - had to go to the Mairie and register, and get my Carte De Sejour. The company sorted it all out, but it was still a pain.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Banco
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:39 pm

There's an issue of culture. Many times I've queried with Italian colleagues why it doesn't bother them that a hotel passes on your wherabouts to the police when you check in. To me, that's a case of "what the hell's it got to do with them", but they're used to it. Makes my blood boil, but bothers them not a whit.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
sebolino
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:51 pm

Zweed,

Of course that's not so simple. Rome was not made in 3 days.
The administration have to get used to that sort of situation, that's new.
 
Zweed
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:06 pm

Sebolino, you say that all this free move, european integration thing is new??

dont think so
 
JGPH1A
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:12 pm

I think you're confusing "freedom of movement" with "ease of movement". You are ALLOWED to live in Holland, but nobody promised it would be easy !  Smile

It would be wonderful if there could be some kind of harmonisation in the admin required to register your permanent presence in a given EU country, or else do away with the requirement altogether - but given the current wave of restrictions aimed at illegal immigration, this is highly unlikely.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
sebolino
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:12 pm

Depends at which scale you're thinking.

It will remain new until many European citizens use this ability to move and work in another country of the Union. For the moment, it's perhaps not enough used.
 
aloges
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:41 pm

And yet, if there was ever to be a harmonised EU immigration and registration system, there would be tremendous uproar from the nationalists in each and every member country. Why? Because the "big bad bureaucratic bastard" called EU is taking away some of the member countries' sovereignty...  Insane
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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solnabo
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:50 pm

Hasn´t that to do with the Schengen deal, Zweed?

Are Sweden members of Sängen? *As u can see I really know much about EU!!!*  Insane

Micke
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Banco
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:51 pm

No need to roll your eyes on that, Aloges. There would be uproar in the UK because we do not have a registration programme. Hardly surprising it would cause upset if the EU were to impose one.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
aloges
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:00 pm

Banco, I didn't aim that at the UK.

And you blokes do have something to (try and) control immigration, don't you?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Zweed
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:09 pm

Yes, Sweden is in Schengen.
 
gkirk
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:17 pm

"Because the "big bad bureaucratic bastard" called EU is taking away some of the member countries' sovereignty"

Exactly what I was going to say  Smile Zweed, you are no longer Swedish, ut your now European. Same with French people, Belgians, Germans etc. They are now all European and now not French, German or Belgian.
But if thats the way they want to be, so be it
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:21 pm

Much as it shames and horrifies me to say this, Kirkie - you're a European too ! Europe has astonishingly low standards  Smile
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
gkirk
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:27 pm

JGPH1A, I dont think of myself as a European though. Firstly Im Scottish, then British, then a citizen of the World.  Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Zweed
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:29 pm

GKirk, been sleeping in that anglo-dungeon for a long while?
I am swedish, will stay swedish for the rest of my life. My nationality will always be swedish. But I am a part and a member of the European Community. Which means, in case you didnt get that part that we cooperate across the borders and integrate with each other.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:36 pm

Kirkie - too bad ! The EU thinks of you as European, so you're stuck with it  Smile
Zer iss no ezcape ! Prepare to be assimilated, resistance is futile.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
gkirk
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:43 pm

Ok, so I cant do a thing about it. Just as long as we dont start using the Euro  Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Andreas
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:46 pm

Ant vee haff vays to make you fill like European, Kirkie!! I only say: Rubber hose!

Not that we want you Scots anyway, IQ (and football quality) level is by all means low enough, we don't need you to push both levels further down!  Big grin Big grin
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Banco
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:53 pm

May I just express my admiration and respect to all our European neighbours, for being so kind and honourable as to admit the Scots into the family of peoples that is Europe.

I know some of you had reservations about this, indeed there was understandable opposition to even declaring them human, but we all must make sacrifices.

Mind you, he's right about the sodding Euro.  Big grin Big grin
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Zweed
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:10 pm

Dont blame the brits. They live on a Island.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:40 pm

RE: Mind you, he's right about the sodding Euro.

Don't worry, it WILL happen, you mark my words.

We'll get you, my pretties, and your little dog too MwAAHAHAHAHA !!

Seriously, I think the UK will join the Euro eventually - may be a while, but I'm sure they will.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
sebolino
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:40 pm

They are now all European and now not French, German or Belgian.
But if thats the way they want to be, so be it



I wonder in which kind of newspaper you take your informations ...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Perhaps not the most reliable ones.
 
Banco
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:15 pm

Seriously, I think the UK will join the Euro eventually - may be a while, but I'm sure they will.

I actually think it's hard to say. Public opinion is implacably opposed and, if anything, hardening. So, there will need to be a fundamental shift there. Can it happen? Absolutely, but not in the near future. So, we're getting into what might happen in the medium or long term. Heaven only knows then. It certainly could happen. Circumstances change.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
gkirk
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:20 pm

Sebolino, nothing wrong with the Scottish Sun  Smile
All normal people read the Sun/Mirror papers like that, with the Posh people reading thon big papers like the Guardian, Financial Times etc.

 Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:22 pm

RE: with the Posh people reading thon big papers like the Guardian, Financial Times etc.

The ones with all those mul-ti-syl-lab-ic words and no boobs. I can see why that would put you off.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Banco
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:28 pm

This is where the classic assessment of the British newspapers in Yes, Prime Minister comes in. It was Bernard Woolley who said:

"The Times is read by the people who run the country.
The Daily Mirror is read by the people who think they run the country.
The Guardian is read by the people who think they ought to run the country. The Morning Star is read by the people who think the country ought to be run by another country.
The Independent is read by people who don't know who runs the country but are sure they're doing it wrong.
The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country.
The Financial Times is read by the people who own the country.
The Daily Express is read by the people who think the country ought to be run as it used to be run.
The Daily Telegraph is read by the people who still think it is their country.
And the Sun's readers don't care who runs the country providing she has big tits."


 Big grin
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
gkirk
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:31 pm

Read The Sun, you know it makes sense  Big grin
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Zweed
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:54 pm

With american, and most of the times a.net standards The Guardian would be considered as a Communist-paper
 
thowman
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:09 pm

There is only one use for the Sun, and that is for when you run out of toilet paper.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:43 pm

All the continentals dislike the Sun, even a Brit-turned-Frenchie like JGPH1A, wonder why?  Laugh out loud
Evening Standard is the way to do.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
Andreas
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:11 am

Thowman...you don't want to bring the Sun even remotely close to your a$$, there's so much printing ink of the cheapest kind on the paper, it would give you a burning rash in no time...besides you'd take after the Pavians at least if seen from behind! Big grin
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Klaus
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Arsenal@LHR

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:44 am

Arsenal@LHR: All the continentals dislike the Sun, even a Brit-turned-Frenchie like JGPH1A, wonder why?

Maybe because it´s a low-brow sewer rag that´s an embarrassment even by the modest british standards? Big grin
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:47 am

Yeah you're right, i'm not a Sun reader, i read the Daily Mirror, a Pro-Europe tabloid, and the Times, which is quite neutral on Europe.

In Arsene we trust!!
 
Banco
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:57 am

Maybe because it´s a low-brow sewer rag that´s an embarrassment even by the modest british standards?

Come now, Klaus. Don't sit on the fence, tell us what you really think.  Big grin
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
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Banco

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:06 am

Sorry, but it´s all the excitement I can spare for them at this moment...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Catatonic
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:20 am

No american commentry so far, how unlike them, usually this is a fave subject for euro bashing!
Equally Cursed and Blessed.
 
N6376M
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:38 am

Upon request:

The United States of Europe -

When I go to Georgia - I don't need to show papers.
When I rent a DVD in Texas - I don't need to show that I am a legal resident of TX
When I apply for a job - an I9 form a passport and a SS card is all I need

EU integration is a crock of $hit. It's some bureaucrat's attempt to have all you guys give up you national sovereignty and subscribe to a set of rules they get to write.

The EU president has even called for athletes to compete under one flag in the next Olympics. I'm all for that, but that means all of the EU can only qualify one team and send one representative to the world cup.

IMO EU integration is good when it helps you and all of you are against it when it doesn't suit your exact desires of the day.

I'll bet the Euro (the currency) loose at least two major members within 30 years and I can't even foresee a circumstance under which the UK would come in.

Let the games begin.
 
N6376M
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:40 am

While we're at it the EU member states should only get one vote in NATO, the UN and all other international organizations.

Time for those supporting EU integration to either put up (act as one nation for all things) or shut up.

By the way 1 and 2 Euro coins are just a bad idea. Every time I'm over there I sound like a chime with all the change in my pocket. Finally how about making bills that fits in my wallet not this fucked up different size money everyone's got.
 
Klaus
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N6376m

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:43 am

N6376m, your entry has been counted... I think we´ve got all the usual silly prejudices together. Or are we missing anything? Guys?  Big thumbs up
 
N6376M
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:48 am

What's prejudiced about what I posted.

One country = 1 vote.

Who's do you suggest we vote off the security council permanent membership(England or France)?

I also see Germany and Spain are members this year.

Instead of four votes the EU get 1.
 
Tasha
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:54 am

"By the way 1 and 2 Euro coins are just a bad idea. Every time I'm over there I sound like a chime with all the change in my pocket. Finally how about making bills that fits in my wallet not this fucked up different size money everyone's got."

LOL!!!  Laugh out loud

Actually, I think we should start making more $1 coins and make them larger than the Quarter - but then again, I have a really bad habit of just dumping change into my purse... I came home with 13 or 14 Euros alone in 1 or 2 Euro coins that my bank won't accept because they only take bills.  Sad

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:59 am

Tasha - a high powered supermodel like you should only have $20's in your wallet. For us common folks 10 coins are a much bigger pain than 10 dollar bills.
 
iakobos
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:26 am

Zweed, as far as I remember (1994) the only thing it took me was a 2 minutes visit to the police (vreemdelingen politie) and another 2 minutes visit to register my address and presence at the municipality.
No stamp in passport either, passport is even not required.

Greek organization (still an euphemism) requires a lot more time, every foreigner needs to pass medical exams, including x-rays of the chest.
Again a passport is not required for Schengen citizens. (only identity card).

 
MD11Engineer
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:32 am

Banco, Zweed,

After having lived in Ireland for several years, I also think that this Napoleonic rule about registering wherever you live (like in Germany) is a bad idea. The problem is that people are so much used to it and if you questionm it, will come up with answers like "We always have done it like this, and it helps the administration!".
When I was living in Ireland, as a foreigner I would have had to registers with the local Gardai (Guards, Irish police), but even though I went there several times and even made appointments, the officer responsible for the registration was never around, so I gave it up. On the other hand, Shannon being a small town, I soon knew most of the cops by first name and they didn´t bother.

The only discrimination I found came from private companies, not from the government.
E.g. I couldn´t get a contract for a mobile telephone, only prepaid cards (more expensive), because they told me that too many foreigners f*cked off leaving huge phone bills. They told me that I had to live in Ireland for at least two years and bring a letter from my bank to prove that I had a regular income.
Also, I couldn´t find any motor insurance for my car (normaly you´ve got to register your car in Ireland with 6 months and pay your tax there, but you need a local insurance company for this). They either plainly refused me ("We don´t do business with foreigners!") or gave me a ridiculously high quote ( 5000 IEP, about 12000 Euro a year), knowing that I would refuse (Hey , I know that young male drivers in Ireland cause a lot of accidents, often being drunk and no real driving school system in place, but I was well above 30 years old, had ten years experience as a driver, and for this money I could have bought a brand new car!). In the end, because I wasn´t causing any trouble, the cops ignored me (I think once I exoplained the situatuion to one of the guards in a pub) and left me alone and I continued to pay my motor tax and insurance in Germany, driving around with German number plates.
BTW, we had a similar problem with motor insurance in Germany in the early 80s, when German insurance companies didn´t want to insure immigrant workkers, claiming that they caused too many accidents, but one went sued them and it went up to suppreme court. The verdict: They have to treat everybody the same, based on personal history and age group, they can´t discriminate per nationality.

Jan

[Edited 2004-09-08 19:54:34]

[Edited 2004-09-08 19:56:32]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Zweed
Topic Author
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:47 am

Interesting reading about Ireland there MD11. thanks.
 
Leskova
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:29 am

MD11Engineer, I remember that time in the early 80s...

We had just returned from living in the US for just under 3 years, so my parents had to get new insurance contracts for the car: my father, an Austrian citizen, was rejected by one company because "foreigners get into more accidents than Germans"... another company offered a contract with a good rate immediately - and my parents still have their car insured there.

Then, my father wanted to get an different residency status - he, like my sister and me (also both Austrian citizens), had an "Aufenthaltserlaubnis" and wanted to get an "Aufenthaltsberechtigung", which offered a bit more security for a foreigner living in Germany: after, at that time, living in Germany for more than half his life (he was around 50 years old at that time), he had to come in to the "Ausländeramt" and speak to them, because they wanted to know if he speaks German...

When my mother, who organized the appointments for those proceedings, heard that explanation she asked why a man who's lived in Germany for more than 25 years and comes from Austria, a country where they speak German as well (or, well, at least something quite close to German...  Big grin) had to go through a test like that: the answer was "he could be a part of the Hungarian minority in Austria".


Anyhow, those things are - fortunately - a thing of the past. While I still don't get a German identity card (I only have my Austrian identity card as well as my passport), I've never had any problems when registering my address with the relevant authorities, I've not had problems getting a bank account, no trouble getting a cellphone contract, no problems with insurances.

The only trouble I ever ran into was when I applied to get a Volkswagen VISA Card and Eurocard: I was rejected because I am Austrian - the fact that I was born in Germany and that I have lived all my life here except those years in the states didn't matter to them... for them I was a foreigner, and foreigners were - sometime around 1996/1997 - not considered creditworthy by the Volkswagen Bank.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:38 am

In France it's much easier now. I live here for 2.5 years, had my social security number, and I got my unemployment benefit when my last employer went bankrupt. I never had to register anywhere in town, just that social number seems to be enough.

KL911
 
LHMark
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RE: European Integration, Yeah Right

Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:06 am

Well, it's not like the EU is a recent, hastily-devised idea. The whole thing was concocted in 1947 to bind Germany economically to the rest of Europe. The true union, however, couldn't progress until German reunification.

A lot has changed since 1947, and a lot more still needs to change. I can sympathize with Zweed's bureaucratic frustration. The US was a union from square one, not a bunch of sovereign nations, each with its own culture and rich history. I can see where there would be integration problems. Hopefully, it'll get easier within the next five years.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller

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