MD-90
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Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:22 pm

Almost 65 years ago, the Nazis' rule in Germany was threatened by the Social Democratic party, which opposed Adolf Hitler's foreign policy and even began to oppose Hitler himself. To counter this, Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels addressed a crowd of Germans. With 25 Nazi swastika flags flying behind him, he told an excited, appreciative crowd:


I ask which leader is it today that has the vision, the willpower and, yes, the backbone to best protect us? [applause]

The clear answer to that question has placed me in this hall with you tonight.

There is but one man to whom I am willing to entrust our future and that man's name is Adolf Hitler. [cheering]

There are some crazy men who would kill us if they could. So Adolf Hitler has told us, "All private plans, all private lives, have been in a sense repealed by an overriding public danger." [cheers]

But where is the national unity in this country when we need it most? [cheering]

Now, while young Germans are dying in the mud in Czechoslovakia and the mountains of Poland, our nation is being torn apart and made weaker because of the Social Democrats' manic obsession to bring down our Führer. [cheering]

What has happened to the nation I've spent my life working in?

I can remember when Social Democrats believed that it was the duty of Germany to fight for freedom over tyranny.

Time after time in our history, in the face of great danger, Germans worked together to ensure that freedom would not falter. But not today. [applause]

Motivated more by partisan politics than by national security, today's Social Democratic leaders see Germany as an occupier, not a liberator.

And nothing makes me madder than someone calling German troops occupiers rather than liberators. [cheering]

Tell that to the Czechs, Poles, Frenchmen, and Belgians who have been freed because Adolf Hitler led an army of liberators, not occupiers. [great cheering]

Tell that to the millions of men, women and children who are free today from the Baltics to the Crimea, from Poland to the Balkans, because Adolf Hitler built a military of liberators, not occupiers. [cheering]

Never in the history of the world has any soldier sacrificed more for the freedom and liberty of total strangers than the German soldier. And, our soldiers don't just give freedom abroad, they preserve it for us here at home. [cheering]

Right now the world just cannot afford an indecisive Germany. Fainthearted, self-indulgence will put at risk all we care about in this world.

In this hour of danger our Führer has had the courage to stand up. And I am proud to stand up with him.

God Bless this great country and God bless Adolf Hitler.

[wild cheering]




Except for one thing. That speech was actually given by Zell Miller a few days ago. There weren't many words that had to be changed to make it into this example.

Source, http://harrybrowne.org/articles/GoebbelsAndMiller.htm

 
Tasha
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:36 pm

You cannot possibly be comparing Goebbles to Zell Miller? Miller, who served his country proudly in the USMC; who served his state as both Senator and Govenor. Zell Miller who is a devoted family man...

You are comparing his to someone who murdered his own children. I am deeply disappointed!

Tasha  Sad
 
Andreas
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:46 pm

Is that a joke????? No, obviously not.... now that is...I don't know what to say actually! Speechless is the word that comes to mind!!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!

Unfortunately he didn't commit a crime under US law, if I remember correctly, but maybe you could send this fully disturbed, criminally insane "person" to Germany and make him repeat it...I guess under German law we could put him into prison, and that is where he belongs...forever!

Just as a reminder for those who love him for his "words of wisdom" at the GOP rally: Goebbels was one of the most disgusting war criminals in Nazi Germany, on the same level as the "Groefaz" (Groesster Fuehrer aller Zeiten=Adolf Hitler), chief judge Freisler and the likes, using rhetorics and media control to push Germany into the "totale Krieg" (another creation of Goebbels) costing millions of lives.

Keep that in mind, just in case someone thinks it is legitimate to use such historical speeches.
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:10 pm

"Zell Miller who is a devoted family man"

So was most of the nazi top (Göbbels, Speer among others)

Micke/SE *jeeeehhhh*
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sebolino
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:13 pm

I don't want to pour oil on the fire and of course I don't want to compare anybody with the Nazis, but that kind of speech is exactly the same of Bush speeches.
That's just a way to justify something with key words like liberation, freedom, God bless xxx and so on ...

Politics, only politics.
 
Andreas
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:48 pm

Seb: Yes maybe just politics, but I'm not ready to say "so frigging what" to everything some so-called "politician" feels fit to fart out into the world.

And in this case, where a speech was basically copied, somebody MUST HAVE KNOWN that they copy a speech that was aimed at killing thousands of people delivered by one of the worst criminals under one of the most inhuman political system that ever plagued this planet.

Ok so be it, thanks for bringing this to our attention...quite revealing it is just how low politics are nowadays!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
damirc
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:07 pm

From what I gather the speech has got nothing to do with Goebbels.

F
I
L
L
E
R

D.
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:45 pm

And in this case, where a speech was basically copied, somebody MUST HAVE KNOWN that they copy a speech that was aimed at killing thousands of people delivered by one of the worst criminals under one of the most inhuman political system that ever plagued this planet.

i think it was not copied. the speech was given and written by zell (probably written by advisors), and the author of the site changed names and places within the speech do demonstrate that it was made of the same flesh as goebbels speeches. it could have been a speech by goebbels, but it was not. at least this is my reading of the report.

cheers, r-
 
Andreas
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:08 pm

Damirc: No it doesn't DEAL with Goebbels, is a speech BY Goebbels!

But ok, funny enough nobody sems to care, so I won't either, in the end this man is an exclusively American problem, to care about things that are somehow connected to Nazi Germany on the other hand seems nowadays to be problem only Germans care about ...so be it!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:25 pm

it could have been a speech by goebbels, but it was not. at least this is my reading of the report.

I agree. I think the point was to show that Miller's could be easily mistaken for Goebbels' speech by just changing few names and places. I don't think they wanted to compare him to Goebbels but to show he's using same speech techniques and fact twisting. Because if you read it really carefully, the speech is full of historical and gegraphical inaccuracies:

Almost 65 years ago, the Nazis' rule in Germany was threatened by the Social Democratic party.

By September 1939 Nazis virtually unlimited rule over Germany was not threatened by the soc. dems.

Motivated more by partisan politics than by national security, today's Social Democratic leaders see Germany as an occupier, not a liberator.

There was no partisan politics in Gemany back then, since it was one-party (NSDAP) dictatorship. The soc dem leaders probably saw Germany as occupier, but their angle of perspective was most likely through barbed wire fences of concentration camps so it did not matter anyway.

while young Germans are dying in the mud in Czechoslovakia and the mountains of Poland

- Czechoslovakia surrendered according to the conditions of the Munich Treaty "to save peace for our times" (as Chemberlain naively thought) in 8/1938 and the rest was occupied as a Protectorate on 15/3/1939 virtually without firing a shot.

- Poland is almost completely flat. At least in the East-West direction in which Wehrmacht (and Red Army) proceeded post Sept. 1 1939 to split Poland in half (once again).

Tell that to the Czechs, Poles, Frenchmen, and Belgians who have been freed because Adolf Hitler led an army of liberators.

In the beginning of 9/1939 German campaign against France and Belgium was still a thing of the future and Poland was still bravely resisting.

Tell that to the millions of men, women and children who are free today from the Baltics to the Crimea, from Poland to the Balkans

same as previous
 
damirc
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:35 pm

Andreas: my point was - that it is NOT a speech by Goebbels.

D.
 
Klaus
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:59 pm

Superficial similarities aside - I think there is a much more troubling analogy between much (not all) of the US politicial discourse and the one in nazi Germany six decades ago:


Democracy thrives on constructive dissent, on open discussion, on looking at the facts and drawing rational conclusions, on free expression of opinions.

Authoritarian regimes do everything to avoid any of the above. Instead of common sense and rational thought, all their power is based on emotion, on carefully honed prejudice, on fear of everything - most prominently the fear of speaking up; The desperately need an arch enemy they can use to focus their population´s anger on so it won´t be directed at the quasi-deified leaders. Criticism of the "beloved leaders" is declared equivalent to treason. Violence and the uninhibited use of power are the primary ways to address any problem in the world.


Let´s be clear: Even the best democratic society will always have emotional and irrational components. But from the beginning of the Bush presidency (even before 9-11!) the discourse was progressively distorted and shifted from a free democratic exchange towards an emotional leader cult with all the paraphernalia described in the second part.

Even the physical manifestations have begun to be increasingly similar: Sure, there probably aren´t any death camps. But torture and occupation in Iraq, "extra-legal" prisoner camps, war as a replacement of diplomacy - the list is long and still growing...

The end point may not be quite as horrible, but the tendencies are unmistakably similar.

This has been one of the reasons why europeans are so resentful of the "new american way": We´ve seen before where this kind of thinking is leading.  Sad

On the other hand, I doubt that today´s americans would put up with this kind of thing for the duration. Even the constant fear-mongering is beginning to get blunt and boring. Let´s just hope the turnaround comes before the next Iraq-sized disaster.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:24 pm

So what about Bush is so terrifying to you guys? I thought he was a bumbling idiot who was incapable of speaking?

Why the comparisons to Hitler?

You really need a hobby or something if you are sitting around convincing yourself Bush is the next Hitler, or if you believed that thread where he was supposed to be the anti-christ.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Andreas
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:30 pm

And you Captoveur need some lessons in reading..URGENTLY!

Then some lessons in UNDERSTANDING..extremely URGENT!

And then...maybe, just maybe...your posts could make sense!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:30 pm


I thought he was a bumbling idiot who was incapable of speaking.So what about Bush is so terrifying to you guys

A bumblking idiot who can easily be manipulated by big business nad criminal advisors. A president with a bit of intelligence would not be so easily misled.

 
JetService
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:13 am

I think you boys are overreacting just a smidge. You can take many speeches and change text to make them appear like they came from Nazi Germany. While you're at it, you can change them again to make them sound like they came from colonial America before 1776. This comparison is amusing but your reactions are laughable.

And Indianguy, one of the reasons GWB is where he is is from people constantly underestimating him. Keep it up, big guy; for the good of our country.  Big grin
"Shaddap you!"
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:22 am

"A bumblking idiot who can easily be manipulated by big business nad criminal advisors. A president with a bit of intelligence would not be so easily misled."

I thought "nad criminal advisor" was something pioneered under the Clinton administration.

*Rimshot*

And this one time, at band camp, we changed a few words in one of Michael Moores speeches and it almost had some basis in fact.

If the speech given at the RNC was WORD FOR WORD a speech from Goebbels I might give you something but you really need to get over yourselves. Political speeches have had the same content since the beginning of time, no matter what the source.

So is Kerry opposed to anything regardless of his audience yet? When that happens, start a thread.. Until then save Johan's bandwidth.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
MD-90
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:39 am

People today wonder how Germans, who are and were fine people, were duped into supporting Hitler and the Nazi party.

Will people one day wonder how the United States went so wrong? Not that I'm saying we're going to become exactly like a Nazi-type regime, but look at our foreign wars that we start, our unhumble foreign policy, our tremendous loss of freedoms and liberties at home, and the ever-growing, ever-consuming federal government.



The speech is not by Goebbels. Zell Meller's speech was slightly doctored (just change a few names/terms) to show how similiar the rhetoric is.
 
b757300
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:49 am

What a bunch of tripe but it should be expected from a guy who's primary platform is to legalize drugs.

In 1939, the Nazis were in total control of Germany. There was not a threat of another party taking over as by that time the Nazis had all but eliminated opposing parties. If Goebbels actually gave such a speech, which I seriously doubt, it wasn't in 1939 and it didn't include 90% of the garbage that Browne is spewing.

I've found that people that throw out the term Nazi are probably closer to being a Nazi than those that they accuse of being one.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
JetService
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:04 am

Will people one day wonder how the United States went so wrong?

If you starting seeing gas-chambers popping up in Nebraska, let us know.
"Shaddap you!"
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:41 am

If you starting seeing gas-chambers popping up in Nebraska, let us know.

no gas yet in Nebraska, but electric chairs! but at least they dont electrocute mentally ill in Nebraska!

of course it is far-fetched to compare the US as they are right now with nazi Germany. but if you look closely, you'll find a few similarities in history.

for instance, the striking racism and segregation, involving lynching people even in the 50'ies makes one wonder. although slaves were not killed systematically in gas chambers, they were seen as racially inferior, terribly exploited, reproduction was controlled, and their life was worth a penny. at least in alabama, i suppose.

also the nazi's planned to eradicate unworthy life, i.e. poor people, mentally handicapped people and the like. they did it. american eugenicists sterilized 60.000 people, mostly against their (and often against the law) will during in the 1930'ies and 40's. don't believe it? read it: http://www.waragainsttheweak.com. but it has changed for the better.

there is some more, i.e., medical experimentation with prisoners and all that sh*t.


some final thoughts:

A: power means always a threat of abuse of power. the more power you have, the more you can screw and do well. power is a risk and chance.
B: the risk of power in a democracy is controlled by critical media, and a politically informed, active people.

regarding A: there is no doubt that the USA is the only superpower.
regarding B: not living in america myself, i am not in a position to judge how effectively this risk is controlled.



cheers, r.


 
CaptOveur
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:50 am

"no gas yet in Nebraska, but electric chairs! but at least they dont electrocute mentally ill in Nebraska!"

We had the electric chair long before Bush. I think Texas actually uses lethal injection, however. Personally, that person was together enough to commit the capital crime, so why are they not with it enough to face the punishment? You might actually have something on your Nazi analogy if people were being executed only because they are mentally ill, unfortunantly (for your argument), that is not the case, they must first commit a crime, some minor infraction like pre-meditated murder, then be convicted and put to death by a jury of 12 of their peers. Wow, that Bush, such a Nazi.

Some states are considering getting rid of the death penalty, Texas is putting in an express line. Makes me proud to now be a Texan.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:58 am

might actually have something on your Nazi analogy if people were being executed only because they are mentally ill, unfortunantly (for your argument), that is not the case, they must first commit a crime, some minor infraction like pre-meditated murder, then be convicted and put to death by a jury of 12 of their peers. Wow, that Bush, such a Nazi.

dude, dont feel personally attacked! i did not want to say that bush is a Nazi. see what i wrote:

of course it is far-fetched to compare the US as they are right now with nazi Germany. but if you look closely, you'll find a few similarities in history.

at the same time, i am not a supporter of the death penalty (dont want to start this discussion though), and that is why i had to respond to your remark on gas chambers. because there ARE gas chambers in the US, e.g., in Missouri. of course, they are used differently than they were in Germany.


so - cheer up my friend!


r.



 
CaptOveur
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:02 am

"of course, they are used differently than they were in Germany."

So what is your point then?
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:13 am

i was referring to this dialogue:

Will people one day wonder how the United States went so wrong?

If you starting seeing gas-chambers popping up in Nebraska, let us know.

my first thought was - wait there ARE gas chambers in the US, they do not need to pop up. the JetService guy was not talking about how to use them. so wasnt I.

but anyways, my remark on the electric chair in nebraska was probably the least serious and important part of my post.





 
kellmark
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:01 am

The viciousness of the attacks on Bush are indeed approaching a shrill level. Another comparison of him to Hitler. How unusual, original and fair minded. Obviously the people that put out this drivel don't have a clue about history under Hitler or what is happening today in the world regarding the threat of terrorism. They can't use logic or facts for their argument so they can only call him names.Bush must have a lot more power and influence than even he imagined.

The fact is that what Zell Miller did was simply bring out what John Kerry's voting record in the Senate really is. And it is atrocious. John Kerry himself has never tried to defend his Senate record (He went to Vietnam you know). He also has never said what his plan is for the war on Terror (He went to Vietnam you know and saved a man's life, whoops the US Navy is investigating his decorations, but he went to Vietnam, you know, whoops no he doesn't want to release all of his military records, but he went to Vietnam you know).
 
Klaus
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Kellmark

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:18 am

Kellmark: The viciousness of the attacks on Bush are indeed approaching a shrill level. Another comparison of him to Hitler.

Sorry, you´re just wrong.

There is an unmistakable correlation between the kind of propaganda that´s being used by the Bush camp and the one used by Goebbels and Co. That is what this thread is about.

Emotional propaganda as a replacement for and a distraction from reality is a very old tool for authoritarian power preservation.

Bush is not Hitler. Such a claim would be idiotic. History doesn´t repeat that precisely (thank god!). But the old propaganda methods have obviously found new disciples.

Nothing new about it in any way; It´s just more obvious again during the election campaign.
 
Tasha
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:13 am

"There is an unmistakable correlation between the kind of propaganda that´s being used by the Bush camp and the one used by Goebbels and Co. That is what this thread is about."

Klaus if you think so, that is up to you. I don't see it as ANY diffrent at all from what Kerry is using against Bush. I think that all here who compare President Bush to Adolf Hitler should have their heads examined - and quickly.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Klaus
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Tasha

Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:20 am

Tasha: Klaus if you think so, that is up to you. I don't see it as ANY diffrent at all from what Kerry is using against Bush. I think that all here who compare President Bush to Adolf Hitler should have their heads examined - and quickly.

Start with yourself - at least with your eyes: Nobody claimed that Bush "was Hitler". That would be idiotic.

As uncomfortable as it makes you - the propaganda used by Bush and especially Cheney is quite closely related to the kind that paved Hitler´s way.

You know very well yourself how well the appeal to the emotional level works: All the focus on fear, hate, suspicion, violence and self-righteousness; Without doubt, without room for critical thoughts, without the ability to distinguish, without respect for the ones who have a different opinion.

The USA are still a democracy so far; But the patterns of discourse don´t reflect it any more, for the most part.

I´m confident you´ll recover, but at this time (and especially during the past two years) you´ve lost a lot of what had once made you great in the eyes of the world.
 
B2707SST
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:29 am

tremendous loss of freedoms and liberties at home

List them.

There is an unmistakable correlation between the kind of propaganda that´s being used by the Bush camp and the one used by Goebbels and Co.

Yes -- the fact that they're both propaganda, and that's it. News flash: politicians make propagandistic speeches about their opponents!

Emotional propaganda as a replacement for and a distraction from reality is a very old tool for authoritarian power preservation.

No, emotional propaganda as a replacement for and a distraction from reality is a very old tool for POLITICIANS, full stop.

People think politics is dirty today, but American politics in the early 1800s was vicious beyond anything we've ever seen. This parody was directed at the Bush campaign, but is Kerry out explaining section 2b of sub-paragraph one of his tax plan? No -- he's telling seniors that Bush is going to steal their Social Security and screaming that Bush lied us into war. Damn the facts that Social Security is a ticking time bomb and that there isn't one shred of proof that the administration intentionally misled anyone, they make nice sound bites for the 6 o'clock news.

99% of politics is pure appeal to emotion; always has been, always will be. Zell Miller's speech was nothing compared to the twisted, manipulative, and outright false "documentaries" that Michael Moore puts together -- but comparing anyone, even him, to Nazis is ridiculous on its face.

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
Klaus
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B2707SST

Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:44 am

Even by american standards the kind of propaganda coming from the Bush camp is rather extreme in its focus on fear, hate and chauvinism. Sorry, but the parallels are striking. And I don´t remember anything similar in the past decades.
 
B2707SST
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:10 am

Even by american standards the kind of propaganda coming from the Bush camp is rather extreme in its focus on fear

I love how running on a platform of national security is now equal to running "a campaign of fear." Franklin Roosevelt ran unabashedly on Pearl Harbor and his war record in 1944 -- was he running a campaign of fear?




On the other side, you've got former Vice-President Al Gore calling Bush supporters on the internet "digital brownshirts" (which drew a response from the national director of the Anti-Defamation League), MoveOn.org featuring ads comparing Bush to Hitler, the far left embracing a novel written sympathetically about the assassination of President Bush, Howard Dean (along with Cynthia McKinney and several others) insinuating that Bush had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks, a National Organization for Women speaker comparing Bush's 2000 election to mass rape, the Democratic establishment repeating baseless allegations that Bush lied...

There's plenty of mud to go around, and there's no basis to allege that one side is in deeper than the other. The vitriolic, personal hatred of Bush among the far left is even greater than the far right's deep loathing of Clinton. It will only get messier as Nov. 2nd draws nearer.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2004-09-10 03:16:33]
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
b757300
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:21 am

On the other side...

Don't forget the piece of crap coming out by Kitty Kelly. NBC will be running a three day expo on it next week. Of course they probably won't mention that her primary "witness" has already come out and said that she never told Kitty Litter the stuff that she is quoted as saying. The rest of the book is based on "unnamed" and second/third hand sources.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Klaus
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:27 am

"National security" is fine by me.

What´s deeply troubling is the complete replacement of common sense and factual background with emotion, prejudice and chauvinism.

It´s the only recourse left after a term that can only be called a wall-to-wall disaster if you´d look at the actual facts; But sometimes the thing to do is stand up and take responsibility. And those jokers don´t even have the balls to do that!  Insane
 
MD-90
Topic Author
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:28 pm

B2707SST, of course it didn't start with Bush. It started with Lincoln, actually.

Here are some good links comparing Japan to America as far as freedoms go, I mean, America is the freest nation in the world...right?

Kumiai
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers50.html

Japanese Freedom vs American Freedom – Redux
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers53.html

Heading for the Final Word on American Freedom?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers55.html
 
B2707SST
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RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:20 pm

I'm pretty familiar with Lew Rockwell's work; I spend way too much time on Mises.org, am well-versed in Austrian econ, and went to two week-long seminars at FEE (another Austrian/libertarian organization).

Lew Rockwell, James Bovard, and others have done some relatively serious scholarship on civil liberties, although I disagree with some of their conclusions. That said, the libertarian movement has a worrying tendency to overlap at the edges with the tinfoil-hat paranoia crowd, which (along with their overemphasis on drug legalization) has prevented the libertarians from becoming a viable alternative to left-liberalism and right-conservatism. I'm not saying that everyone worried about government intervention is a conspiracy theorist -- I'm worried myself, though more about economic than social policy -- but there is a definite fatalism/pessimism in their arguments that lends itself to "sky is falling" exaggerations. The government is not about to declare martial law or lock up its political opponents. This nation has been through much more serious trials than George Bush and John Ashcroft and come through okay. Just look up the Alien and Sedition Acts.

A lot of my objections to this attitude stem from an unfortunate commingling of economics and politics. Murray Rothbard was a brilliant economist and did a fine job carrying on Mises and Hayek's work. I don't agree with his politics. Mises made a compelling argument that subjectivist economics should be value-free, because all value judgments are fundamentally individualistic and not open to question. Rothbard disagreed, and his distinctive strain of anarcho-capitalism has certainly taken hold among many Austrians, especially at the Mises Institute. Lew Rockwell himself, Jorg-Guido Hulsmann, and Hans-Herman Hoppe come to mind.

Most Rothbardians seem to believe that if America pronounces unilateral free trade, suspends all official foreign policy, and withdraws from the Middle-East, our problems with Islamist terrorism will go away. This view is hopelessly naive, as it ignores the fact that radical Islamic values are fundamentally irreconcilable with those of liberal societies, including those the Rothbardians themselves espouse. Islamic terrorists have no desire to co-exist with others of differing views. More importantly, they have no qualms about using extreme violence against their ideological and political enemies. The school siege in Russia made this crystal clear.

Even more than Kerry and the Democrats, the radical libertarians/anarcho-capitalists have failed to formulate a clear response to September 11 -- mostly because they believe there is no valid role for any government at all, domestically or in the foreign arena. Political isolationism, whether on the Pat Buchanan or Lew Rockwell model, is not the answer, just as prostrate internationalism on the John-Kerry-of-1971 model is not the answer. Neoconservatism on the Bush-Perle-Wolfowitz model may not be either, but it is a powerful theoretical argument and libertarians have not enunciated an equally effective counterpart: "get the government out" is not sufficient in today's geopolitical climate.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2004-09-10 07:24:10]
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
Tasha
Posts: 537
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:34 pm

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:23 pm

I too would like to comment here as I love politics, but I have been censored again today when someone didn't like what I had to say. So I will attempt to be more accomedating of European opinion, and perhaps even perhaps left leaning people.

Well to the moderators....

...who bring in personal opinions censoring a posting because a single phrase didn't contain factual information - I say fine, but I also cancelled my subscription to this site today. I know that none of them really care about my $5, but it's the principle of the thing, and this is not the place for open debate that I thought it was. This forum is rampant with special interests; unreasonable objections from people who dislike opinions that they deem objectionable; and finally, it is overrun by what I can only deem leftists (considering all the anti-Bush and Pro-Kerry threads that are NOT censored - wonder why??). I do have a vote, one which I will use - that is a vote with my pursestrings and A.net will no longer get my money. When my subscription expires, I will bid you good day - until then I will try to be civil and not stifle the sensibilities of some of the left-of-center folks here.

To Klaus....

who insists that George Bush is one of the most evil men in the world and that I have never been to Germany, I say dream on sweetie. He doesn't understand; want to understand; or understands but doesn't want to accept that both the GOP and DNC play politics and use aggressive techniques; all he would have to do is to listen to Al Gore. Personally, I really don't understand what the European hang-up is with American politics when he has so much to worry about in Germany. Chancellor Schroeder, who BTW adopted a beautiful little girl recently (perhaps proving that he isn't an evil man), still cannot hold on. What of Hartz IV? What of the PDS, or shall I say the successor to the East German SED? I guess Klaus your leftist leanings are well documented and you won't vote NPD. Okay fine.... I would rather not discuss German politics because I don't vote in Germany.

To B2707SST....

I mostly agree with you on many things, including that wonderful political cartoon (if it is a bit... less than tasteful) However, I firmly believe that if FDR were alive today he would be revolted by what his Democratic Party had become. Thank you for pointing out that "99% of politics is pure appeal to emotion; always has been, always will be" Never a truer word spoken.


L410Turbolet....

You are so far off your mark with things that were to have been said in at the Republican convention. Yes I agree with you... America is EVIL!!!! Sure enough!~! I think America is so EEEEVil it should immediately withdraw from the United Nations. This way the righteous policy of France will guide the world without hindrance. Besides, who needs the Americans anyway - they only provide 40% of the U.N.'s money and the lion share of the troops for it's operations. Surely Europe can fulfill this.

I think the U.S. should also withdraw from a NATO that has such a double standard for France. You're either a member or not... Saying that we're outside of the NATO command structure as the French do should not fly. Guess what, if you want a defensive treaty with the U.S., then we'll talk. Ohhh, hey Mr. Putin, most of Western Europe is easy pickings for you now.


To MD-90....

From everything you have written in this forum it is easy to tell that you are very, ummmm, leftist. Interestingly enough, your liberal contributions are not being.... (going to reserve that one)

Perhaps people will ask what went wrong in American when folks like yourself want stifle free thought and free speech through the control of the "free" media. You cannot tell me that CNN, LA Times, NY Times, and the Washington Post - DO NOT fully endorse Kerry? That they DO NOT present an image that is EXTREMELY pro Kerry? That they have refused to ask the difficult questions of Kerry?


To Rabenschlag...

I agree with you about "critical media", but Sir... where is this "critical media"? Most media in the U.S. is extremely biased and slanted left. CNN is nothing but the mouth piece of the DNC; some even called it: the Clinton News Network during his administration. Fox and PRN at least present both sides of the issue. MSNBC is centrist, but fifteen degrees off to the left. There are some impartial news talkshows on each of these networks - but that is about all.


To Indianguy....

"A bumblking idiot who can easily be manipulated by big business nad criminal advisors. A president with a bit of intelligence would not be so easily misled."

You simply have no clue, do you? President Bush has degrees from Harvard and Yale; security adviser Rice has a Ph.D. I am sorry, but you really sound like some of the Hollywood types who flunked out of school calling Dr. Rice stupid. Criminal advisors?? WOW!!! Where are the moderators when you need them? Or do they only censor something that is pro-Bush? Funny how I have been the brunt of much censorship when a person like Indianguy can say all these things and gets away with it... makes you wonder about a certain freedom, and why it is being denied to certain folks.


I have a flight to ATL in the morning, okay - right around noon... so let me leave you all, and I say a good night.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5420
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:36 pm

Tasha,
WTF, are you talking about? The thread is about allegory and parody to Miller's speech and how propaganda still works. What does France has to do with it? NATO, Putin...?  Insane
Anyway, I never said America is evil! I am not so sure about its current president, though. But hey, it's only till November or (god forbid) four more years!?
I am sorry to read you're cancelling your membership. I surely will miss your wisdom and insight into Airbus' business policies, hysterical objections to anything non ultra-right-wing and obssesion with "liberal" media...

 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:59 pm

My dear Tasha: A college degree, even from Harvard is no guarantee for intelligence.

To sample some of GWB's "intelligence" please visit :
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Tasha

Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:48 pm

Tasha: To Klaus.... who insists that George Bush is one of the most evil men in the world

Learn to read, my dear.

Tasha: and that I have never been to Germany

If you manage to preserve that level of prejudice even through an actual visit, you´ve got serious issues with your perception.


Tasha: Personally, I really don't understand what the European hang-up is with American politics when he has so much to worry about in Germany.

The somewhat artificial excitement about Hartz IV is definitely small change compared with illegal invasion, torture, human rights violations, broken treaties and so on. And since much of that does affect everybody on the planet it´s only natural to take an interest.

You´re happily invited to discuss german politics; No german would begrudge you a real interest or decry a somewhat substantive commentary. You may have noticed that europeans are far less touchy about such matters.


Provide more substance and less prejudice and somebody may actually miss you around here when you´re gone.

[Edited 2004-09-10 13:59:22]
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:10 pm

Roy, when you are being a moron it helps if you post the link that supports your idiocy instead of just a blank which makes you look like an idiot anyway.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:01 am

It's clearly a highly superficial election campaign where one side says that Kerry has won three purple hearts decades ago while the other side has no better thing to do than to rise the question if Kerry really deserves all three purple heards. Kerry's poor record as a Senator is only marginally mentioned.

It's "either you are pro or against war on Iraq" - nobody seems to care about how the war was won and whether or not the right time to battle Hussein had already come.

Bush and his endorsers claim that Kerry will be soft on terrorism as if being in breach with various international treaties and torturing 55 people to death would indicate a souvereign administration. What's left of President Bush's self-proclaimed divine mission?

Both campaigns are basically a non-political, superficial mudfest not worth to be listened to.

99% of politics is pure appeal to emotion;

Maybe speeches being held to promote a certain candidate are, but hopefully not politics in general. One should think that the citizens of one of world's oldest democracies (for hairsplitters: republic) have sort of a build-in litmus test that provokes questions like "Where's the beef!?" if one politican attempts to escape in stirring emotions. Is it really too much to ask for what empty phrases like "I have won three purple hearts" or "No one will stop us" really stand for?

@ Tasha: Could you please name one major representant of America's liberal press that had a critical view on the Bush administration when war broke out?
And if you constantly find your posts deleted than you should better stick to the rules. A.net is not overwhelmingly "liberal". Most members may be liberal when compared to you - but against the background of your rants that shouldn't come as a surprise.

[Edited 2004-09-10 18:09:43]
I support the right to arm bears
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:15 am

NoUfo,

East Germany was also a "Republik", but definitely NOT democratic, same as the People´s Republic of China, North Korea and most of the Warsaw Pact countries. They all carried the name Republic in their names. Maybe some of or right wing members want to take a hint?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:50 am

That's correct, Jan. Ok, there is this vow "I pledge allegiance to the flag (…) and to the republic for which it stands." But to claim the USA "is not a democracy, but a republic" does not appear to be wise since it sounds like a proud refusal of democratic principles.

Norbert
I support the right to arm bears
 
MD-90
Topic Author
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:07 am

Oh, LAW now I have read EVERYTHING!


To MD-90....

From everything you have written in this forum it is easy to tell that you are very, ummmm, leftist. Interestingly enough, your liberal contributions are not being.... (going to reserve that one)



I'm a leftist? ROTFLAMO!

[Edited 2004-09-10 20:08:43]
 
MD-90
Topic Author
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:10 am

The people who are going to vote in the US elections in November are naive if they think that any real changes will occur based upon their vote. The Establishment Party of Paternal Government is going to win, not matter which candidate wins.
 
Tasha
Posts: 537
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:34 pm

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:16 am

noUFO:

"@ Tasha: Could you please name one major representing of America's liberal press that had a critical view on the Bush administration when war broke out?"

Dan Rather for one


"And if you constantly find your posts deleted than you should better stick to the rules. A.net is not overwhelmingly "liberal". Most members may be liberal when compared to you - but against the background of your rants that shouldn't come as a surprise"

A.net is actually, not liberal indeed - but very left wing. Too many interesting ideas are not entertained, but discarded by people who claim to be moderators, but in effect are actually left-leaning censors. Also, speaking of rules - these rules are not uniformly enforced, but very selectively. Some are enforced with heavy bias. A.net is EXTREMELY biased against viewpoints that don't spout the glories of Airbus or Micheal Moore fantasies!

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

[Edited 2004-09-11 04:28:04]
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Goebbels Rallies The Troops

Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:25 am

The US is indeed a republic. We use democratic processes to elect our government, but we are definitely a republic. Look it up. A democracy has everyone voting on every issue, we send representatives to examine issues and vote for us. The only true democracies left are the small towns that actually use town hall meetings to pass local laws and ordinances by show of hands from all citizens.

Oh, and BTW..MD90 this is the most inflammatory post I have seen here, and that is not a compliment. Comparing any US senator I can think of to Goebbels is either something you have done to stir the pot or a display of a complete loss on the grip of reality. Are you angry about something? Is there a reason you are reaching to make this point. Shall we go back and analyze every speech made by any politician we do not like and compare them to speeches given by hated political figures? We can do that. It would ba a waste of time that proves nothing other than politicians of every stripe know how to rile people up and make them feel emotions. Both Hitler and Roosevelt (either one) were master orators and politicians...does that mean they are of equal character or morals? You are wrong. Take a good loo kat what you said and see if it is something you really meant, or was it the result of some frustration?

[Edited 2004-09-12 04:32:05]
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?

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