Logan22L
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Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:21 am

I'd like to offer my thoughts on this subject, and I hope we can start a rational discussion (foolish hope on my part, but here goes).

The fundamental question of life is, to me, why are we here? I believe that the reason we are here is to figure out why we are here (sounds so simple, it's almost silly, but please, think about it). Put another way, our purpose in life is to figure out how we fit into the entirety of things. I could digress into the possibility of reincarnation, enlightenment of all beings, etc., but suffice it to say that if we kill a convicted criminal, no matter how repulsive the person or the crime, that person can no longer contemplate what is, in my opinion, the purpose of life, and cannot come to terms with it. It may be that they would not contemplate this even if they were to live, but to remove the possibility of someone being able to eventually understand what their/our life is about, EVEN IF THEY TOOK THAT AWAY FROM ANOTHER PERSON, is, in my opinion, wrong. Battlestations, everyone.

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
KROC
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:34 am

You're entitled to your opinion by all means, but what makes you think your opinion makes the death penalty "wrong"?
 
Logan22L
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:39 am

Semantics is the best you can bring up on such a topic? In this context, the words:

Wrong = don't kill them
Right = kill them.

My point is don't kill them, so I said "wrong."

WTF?

[Edited 2004-09-09 19:41:33]
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:42 am

yeah! WTF!

saying that something is right or wrong beyond personal taste presupposes an universal ethic.

up to now, no scientist has discovered an univesal ethic.

existing ethics are based on faith.

faith is a special case of personal taste.

there is no ethic beyond personal taste.

so you can say that you DISLIKE the death penalty, but to say it is wrong - i dont understand.







 
Klaus
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:51 am

Apart from the purely moral question, it´s rather common that people are executed and after that have their innocence proven.

This alone should make the death penalty inherently unbearable.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:52 am


Alright, now that we have all discussed what the word "wrong" means, I must apologize to all that I have offended. Apparently, the subject matter is of no consequence to anyone, but my supposed or alleged forcing of my opinion as some kind of absolute truth by use of this horrible word has rendered me a blackguard. It's my opinion - to me, it is the truth, that's how strongly I feel about it. To me, there's really not too much point in having an opinion unless you express it and embrace it.

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
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solnabo
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:53 am

So has the killings stopped in US? NO!

Has the deathpenelty scared people from killing each other due to d-penelty??
NO!

WTH having a law that gives the state the right to kill killers? Dunno.....u tell me?

my 0,02

Micke/SE
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N6376M
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:56 am

I used to be very pro-death penalty but two independent arguments swayed my mind. The first is that there is a far too great error rate for death penalty convictions. In the past couple of year many people convicted of crimes for which they were awaiting execution have not just had their sentences commuted but been found not guilty of the crime they were originally charged. The state cannot go around executing innocent people. Even if the error rate is a fraction of 1% this is unacceptable.

Secondly, I heard a great quote from MLK:

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. You may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. You may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate, nor establish love. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."

How can the state seek to end murder by killing. The argument is oxymoronic.

Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that the cost of executing an inmate is far more than keeping them in jail for the rest of there life. Other than the shear eye for an eye satisfaction that the death penalty gives society, I really don't believe that there are any policy reasons supporting it.

 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:56 am

Has the deathpenelty scared people from killing each other due to d-penelty??
NO!



Has it long since been deteremined that the death penalty is not a deterent and yet its supporters don't give a f^ck??
YES!

 Laugh out loud
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Logan22L
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:05 am


Klaus and N6376m: Yes, there are some logistical issues also, on both sides of this issue-the reality of executing an innocent person is completely indefensible. Consider also the disproportionate racial make-up of deathrow inmates (at least in the US-I don't think I need to elaborate). On the flip side, the cost of maintaining a prisoner for life has been an argument for execution; however, N6376m, you indicated that the cost was greater to execute them. Where is this from-I'm interested to see that?

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
ly7e7
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:07 am

Any countries in the EU that exercise death penalty?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:13 am

LY7E7,
I don't think so, since all of them are Council of Europe members as well and one of the conditions of membership in C of E is ban on death penalty, I believe.
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:15 am

You can still be killed for treason in the UK.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:18 am

You can still be killed for treason in the UK

By a Court-Martial I suppose, and not by a civil court, or am I mistaken?
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
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solnabo
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:20 am

Make it illegal to buy guns for starters, but that´ll be the day when hell freezes over........over there! U just looove to have the right to be armed, right?

Than U can have it.......as Columbine so clearly showed  Sad

Not a country in EU have the d-penelty, dunno about Russia though.

Micke/SE
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ly7e7
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:21 am

dunno about Russia though

Russia has it , AFAIK
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Qb001
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:22 am

that person can no longer contemplate what is, in my opinion, the purpose of life,

I think this excerpt pretty much sums up what is WRONG with death penalty: it's not a penalty; it's a state-sponsored murder.

A penalty, by definition, is something that is limited in time. It is inflicted so that the person getting a penalty takes this time to think, to reflect and, hopefully, to repent. But death, as a penalty, does not make sense, as it takes away the opportunity of an individual to accomplish these duties.

Death is for eternity and we all know that eternity lasts a long, long time, especially toward the end...

Logan, nice of you to try and establish a philosophical and ethical discussion here. But the radicalism (especially far-right radicalism) that pollutes this site prevents those kind of discussions. Sorry that I have to break this news to you...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:23 am

Furthermore, it has been demonstrated that the cost of executing an inmate is far more than keeping them in jail for the rest of there life.

Does an execution really cost that much?

A few days ago, a dangerous murdered escaped from prison. He shot at several police officers while running away. This piece of shit was arrested again after a week, and is now again in jail. This is the kind of people that deserves death penalty, as they cause nothing but trouble anyway.

Another case is a serial murdered who first raped young girls, and killed them afterwards. Another one that deserves death penalty in my opinion.

I'm generally against it, but for examples like the above, I would like to see it being introduced in Belgium.

Frederic
 
N6376M
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:23 am

I don't have the figure in front of me (I'll search for it tonight) but I remember reading an article in the WSJ from about 2 years ago - about the time the IL governor suspended all executions that provided the figure.

The article included all cost - including the additional costs of a trial for a capital offense - the defense spends a heck of a lot of money on experts when the offense is capital, and all the appeals in coming up with that figure.

 
Qb001
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:26 am

Any countries in the EU that exercise death penalty?

No. In fact, practicing death penalty is a reason for NOT being admitted within the EU. Which is why Turkey has gotten rid of it - because it wants really bad to join the EU.

Another implication is that the USA, because it's the last modern, civilized country to maintain this barbaric practice, could not, technically, join the EU.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:31 am

Qb001: Good point about the word penalty - it's not like this is just a 5-minute major. Also, I welcome dissenting points of view; that's the only way to have a true discussion. Hopefully, when they all come in from waxing their pick-up trucks and polishing their gun racks, we can see if the conservatives can present their side. So far, the only real dissent has been my use of the "wrong." (so much for being civil)

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
prosa
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:36 am

Another implication is that the USA, because it's the last modern, civilized country to maintain this barbaric practice, could not, technically, join the EU.

Japan is not modern and civilized?
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:36 am

Make it illegal to buy guns for starters, but that´ll be the day when hell freezes over........

Correct.

It'd require a constitutional ammendment; and as we've very recently seen, even one heavily supported by the citizens is incredibly difficult to pass.



U just looove to have the right to be armed, right?

Indeed



as Columbine so clearly showed

Pray tell... exactly what did Columbine have to do with the right to bear arms?  Yeah sure




Does an execution really cost that much?

Not per se.... it's the legal costs combined with the prison/execution costs that do.
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luv2fly
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:38 am

Well for starters I do not have a truck or a gun, thank you very much for that stereotype! I am for it, an eye for an eye. I do believe even though it does not work to deter others that right there is not a reason to no longer have a death penalty. Lung cancer does not stop people from smoking.
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SlamClick
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:40 am

One fact that is not subject to debate.
No person who has been executed has ever committed another crime.

While I am also opposed to the death penalty, I cannot think of a reasonable alternative. I am furious that my tax dollar is being used to keep these people alive. The cost of keeping a person in prison would keep them at Harvard, it would keep them in a nice cabin aboard a cruise ship, it would keep them in a house like mine with a car like mine and they' never have to work to pay for it. That is unacceptable.

I believe it is time for those of us who do not commit crimes to file a class-action suit against all of those who do commit crimes to recover 100% of the cost of having a police force, district attorney's office and a jail/prison system.

Back to the death penalty:

I also have to reject the assertion, and we hear it all the time, that "It has been proven that the death penalty does not deter crime."

Oh really? Where?

Proof is a scientific concept. It has rules and it doesn't matter whether or not you believe this or understand it. Where is the control group? Where has it ever been that 100% of the people who commit murder have been caught, tried, and executed?

That is just preposterous. Most murderers get away with it. Most murderers know that most murderers get away with it.

The fact is, you have better chances of survival if you are convicted of murder and sentenced to death than if you walk down certain streets in America unarmed. That is the truth.

The death penalty doesn't deter crime? It's never even been tried! Hardly any of the killers out there have even been sentenced to it. If they are, unless they live in Texas there is almost no chance of the sentence being carried out. Almost no chance at all, and they know it.

There is probably a better chance of a convicted killer getting a law degree at our expense than of being executed.

For these reasons I think the secular, sociological arguments against capital punishment are a bunch of crap.

As to the religious arguments, I'm not qualified to debate them. I'll leave that to others.

N6376M good post, but I think I'd call it more of a conundrum than an oxymoron.

Logan22L one interesting point about the reincarnation issue is this. More than half of the human beings that were born on this planet since the dawn of the human race (Call it Lucy or Genesis) ARE STILL ALIVE. In other words, the present population of Earth exceeds the number of humans who have died in the past 2.5 million years (or 6008 years since creation). So it is not possible for all humans to have lived on this planet before, much less hundreds of times. So if the new souls are from other planets are they really sous. And if some people are being born without souls is it okay to kill them?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
TWFirst
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:47 am

To me, it's purely a question of logic... it doesn't seem logical to me that the government can outlaw killing someone, yet reserves that right for itself.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:54 am

C-boy, you´re thoughts really scares me!

Wonder where you keep the hood and cross? In the closet, maybe?

Micke  Insane
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Logan22L
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:01 am

Luv2fly: Please forgive the stereotype - I couldn't resist. Just call me a sarcastic pacifist on this issue.

SlamClick: Spending money on prisoners, even those who may be "deserving" of death goes to the heart of the matter. In my original post I alluded to enlightenment of all beings. I feel that it is everyone's job to pull everyone along in this life. It is a difficult philosophy, and I struggle with it sometimes (e.g., crack addicts on welfare, etc.), but I try to adhere to it. Granted, the system is not good and could be much more efficient, as with all phases of government. Anyway, with regard to reincarnation, I steered fairly far clear from that subject since I did not want to cloud my position on capital punishment.

Here goes, and this may seem far-fetched, but seeing as though we can't really answer any questions about the afterlife, how far-fetched can it be. In Eastern philosophy, and in particular, Tibetan Buddhism, reincarnation is a phenomenon that can be controlled by aware beings. In the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" there is a section on "Choosing a womb." Long and short, the purpose of being is to ascend through various realms of being, by meditating and through karma. Thus, bad karma can send a human back as a "lower" being, such as a dog or even an insect. Good karma can drive you up the chain, and eventually to enlightenment. It is said that many, many lifetimes are required for this. Thus, the number of humans can vary significantly, since humans can be incarnated from any sentient being, not just from former humans. There are some real questions in here for me (like how does an insect develop good karma, or does it ascend by chance??), but I recognize this as a real possibility. Otherwise, why is all of this here, and what the hell are we doing here????

Logan

[Edited 2004-09-09 21:03:28]
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
prosa
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:08 am

One useful thing about the death penalty is that it can be a powerful negotiating tool for the prosecution. Defendants sometimes agree to plead guilty, rather than go to trial, in return for a waiver of the prosecution's right to seek the death penalty. It also can be used to persuade defendants to turn state's evidence and testify against fellow criminals.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
L.1011
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:29 am

C-boy, you´re thoughts really scares me!

Wonder where you keep the hood and cross? In the closet, maybe?

Micke


Erm....Solnabo....ConcordeBoy is black you shilly sit! (spelling error intentional)
 
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solnabo
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:48 am

Oooppss!!!!!!

Sorry, C-boy, didn´t know that Embarrassment

Micke
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:49 am

When it comes to death penalty, I'm split. The function of death penalty as deterent was proved as non-working and the risk of error and impossibility of retrial very high. But when you see someone capable of intentionally killing two 10-year old girls like Ian Huntley did, then what other appropriate punishment there is, other than death?
 
luisca
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:25 am

The death penalty is WRONG for several reasons
1. becouse it has no reversal, no way of going back once a person is executed. Troughout history there have been several cases of wrongfull executions.
2. If you are religious you have to believe that Life is given by God and only him can take it away, people should never decide when a person should die.
3. I believe that life in prison in solitary confinement should be the hieghst punishment, WHAT worst punishment is there than spending the REST of your life alone in a small cell? I would rather DIE than face this.
4. I believe that death is a pretty sweet way of escaping prison, again I would rather die than spend the rest of my life in a cell.
5. The death penalty never has and never will work as a deterant against brutal crimes, these will continue to happen, just as they have trought history, even in the past when in most of the world it was practiced.
6. In these days, only brutal regimes and the US and Japan practice Death penalty.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:31 am

In these days, only brutal regimes and the US and Japan practice Death penalty

...point being?  Yeah sure
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Klaus
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ConcordeBoy

Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:43 am

ConcordeBoy: In these days, only brutal regimes and the US and Japan practice Death penalty

...point being?


What kind of

Hint

do you still need, CBoy?  Insane
 
emiratesa345
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:18 am

"2. If you are religious you have to believe that Life is given by God and only him can take it away, people should never decide when a person should die."

Do you realize how that can't possibly be an issue?

If the murderer who is to be executed thought this way, then surely he wouldn't have killed the other individual, but rather left the deed for "God" to do.

EmiratesA345
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Tasha
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:21 am

Why is it so bad to execute criminals convicted of murder? If you have been convicted by a jury, and have been given the right to an appeal - then YOU SHOULD BE executed instead of wasting my tax money sitting in a jail for years till your turn comes. I think public gallows are the way to do it - the more criminals that see others swings by the neck, the more they will think twice about committing crimes themselves.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Logan22L
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:38 am


Tasha: Did you read my posts? I gave you my opinions that address your very question. As to the costs, several people have chimed in that execution is actually more costly, and your final point regarding making examples of them holds no water whatsoever (again, have you read the thread?).

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
Tasha
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:59 am

Logan...

Yes I have, and I just don't agree with you. Please read my above post, there I state a reason why I don't agree with you.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:03 am

This is really a very minor issue:

If for instance a murderer is rottening away in a prison...
Or he is "removed" once and for good...

It really doesn't matter.

European countries generally chose to let them rotten away. That's okay with me as long as they are so few that we can pay for it on the tax sheet.

Other countries chose not to let them rotten, at least not for as long time, then roast them. That's also okay with me.

In my country we removed death penalty a couple of hundred years ago because we didn't need it any more. Then we introduced it again in 1945 because we needed it. And removed it again. I just hope we will never need it again.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:22 am

What kind of
Hint
do you still need, CBoy?



None, though apparently you do:

HINT: "rhetoric"  Insane  Yeah sure
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
zak
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:42 am

i think that death penalty can be wrong under circumstances, namely if the person to be executed is not part of a minority. apart from that its a great thing and the sentences should be executed alot sooner.

signed

you know who you are from the -> wing
10=2
 
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JeffM
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:52 am

"We should continue to dig deeper, spend more money in the search as to why people kill. Is it too much t.v. violence? Bad parenting? Maybe we should spend more on education, healthcare, and psychology for people at risk of killing. Even if they are caught with the smoking gun, we should spare no expense in finding out why!"

Signed,

All the Left Wing Liberals, and many Democrats on the <- wing.
 
Ant72LBA
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:36 am

Going back to post no.12; all the last loopholes that could have led to your execution in the UK were removed a number of years ago so you cannot be executed for treason. Interestingly if the IRA had succeeded in killing Margaret Thatcher in the Brighton bombing the culprit(s) could still have been hung for treason. Instead I think the bomber (Magee?) made a tv show last year with the daughter of one of his victims.

The whole NI conflict makes an interesting study of the death penalty; despite the death penalty not being on the statute at the time the British Government still found enough excuses to execute terrorists on a number of occasions; e.g. the ambush at Loughall (spelling?). Personally I found those justified as the state as a whole was threatened and needed, from time to time, to flex its muscles and show that the democracy will not be dictated to by the gun.

For the individual killer I believe the life sentence is a much worse prospect than the death penalty (we all get that eventually); witness Myra Hindley who was still squirming for release right up to the day she died still behind bars. Killing plainly mentally unstable or ill individuals such as Peter Sutcliffe doesn't seem right in a civilised society.

Just my thoughts so flame away at willl............
 
AGrayson514
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:32 am

JeffM

Were you trying to be sarcastic?

Because the things that you said would, to a great extent, be good things to do. Studies have shown that rehabilitation and research are the best ways to stop crime. One thing we could to better in our country and indeed the world is to worry more about the source of the problem than about what we're gonna do after the fact.

Not to say that there should be no consequences... there should be, and they should probably be worse than death. Rehabilitation is no walk in the park, I'm sure. But, it is a second chance...and I can understand the sentiment that some criminals should NOT be given a second chance.

The comment about sparing no expense, well obviously that's a bit extreme. But if we could possibly cause the crime rate to go down in the long run by spending a bit of money, don't you think it'd be worth it?

~ Andrew Grayson

Give a little bit...
 
WellHung
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:38 am

I don't care how my tax money is spent as long as it's used to kill other people and not help them.

Signed,
Righties
 
b757300
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RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:40 am

2. If you are religious you have to believe that Life is given by God and only him can take it away, people should never decide when a person should die.

Actually, a person who is religious (As least of the Christian faith) should support capital punishment in certain cases. If ones reads the Bible they find that God states that for certain crimes, such as premeditated murder, death for the perpetrator is the appropriate punishment.

In fact, the first commandment God gives regarding civil government is how to deal with a murderer.

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." -Genesis 9:6
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JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:10 pm

"Not to say that there should be no consequences... there should be, and they should probably be worse than death."

Good idea, find out everything you can, then nuke them.
 
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scbriml
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Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Why The Death Penalty Is Wrong

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:42 pm

I am totally opposed to the death penalty. Do you need any reason other than the execution of incorrectly convicted people?

"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

The bible also says "turn the other cheek".

Why is it so bad to execute criminals convicted of murder? If you have been convicted by a jury, and have been given the right to an appeal - then YOU SHOULD BE executed instead of wasting my tax money sitting in a jail for years till your turn comes. I think public gallows are the way to do it - the more criminals that see others swings by the neck, the more they will think twice about committing crimes themselves.

So how do you feel about the innocent people who have previously been executed by the state (in the UK as well as US and probably everywhere else) even though they went through your process.

It seems the majority of death penalties in the US are handed down to people who were poorly represented in court and generally don't get a fair trial.
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