KiwiNanday
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Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:07 am

With the three-year anniversary of 9/11 only hours away, I would like to ask 'Which was worse; the attacks of December 7, 1941 or the attacks of September 11, 2001?

In my opinion, Pearl Harbor was the worse of the two....
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planespotterx
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:44 am

Id say Pearl Harbor too, as had it not happened, the US would have regained some of its navy power which would have helped in the defeat of Japan.
Talking of Japan, I wonder why noone cares about the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki anymore..
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:46 am

Whaddya mean "anymore"?  Laugh out loud
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planespotterx
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:48 am

Well thousands died in the nuclear attacks carried out by the US, and we dont have any "holidays" or one minute silence for them.
And yet the US is attacked killing 3000 or so, and its "everyone be quiet" and if you have an opinion about WHY it happened, the US brand you a terrorist.
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
slider
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:53 am

Only took 3 posts for this thread to go off the rails.

All of the aforementioned events are horrible. Period. There doesn't need to be any comparisons or analysis, and trying to "rank" them if you will is wholly inappropriate.

All are a loss of humanity of the greatest magnitude.
 
planespotterx
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:56 am

Im sorry, im not condoning whats happened in the US, I just find it odd sometimes that they often forget the suffering theyve caused to other people even if it was 50 years ago, it shouldnt be forgotten.
I wish for peace just as the next person, and I hope Bush eventually gets rid of all these fanatical terrorists once and for all, even if it does mean war.
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
airtran737
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:01 am

Why should we have a moment of silence for the victims of our Nukes? They were the enemy, and we were trying to bring the enemy to its knees. I know that you all will spout off about innocent women and children, my response to the are the words collateral damage. If we didn't worry so much about hurting the innocent the war in Iraq would have been over a long time ago, and don't get me started on how we could have dominated the Vietnam War.
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ryanb741
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:05 am

But AirTran737, Al Qaeda could say that they were just trying to bring the enemy to their knees!

Anyway, I don't think this is an appropriate thread for bashing, 9/11 was appalling and evil and the terrorists and their evil religion need to be annihilated and buried in pork fat.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:10 am

Well thousands died in the nuclear attacks carried out by the US, and we dont have any "holidays" or one minute silence for them.

...which goes back to the original implication of Reply #2.

Bit of a slow chap, aren't you?  Laugh out loud
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whitehatter
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:11 am

Why should we have a moment of silence for the victims of our Nukes? They were the enemy, and we were trying to bring the enemy to its knees.


Change "our nukes" to "those planes" and you just justified Al Quaeda and 9/11. Sentiments like that just ensure even more hatred is kept alive. Maybe you should go walk in Times Square and explain all about collateral damage. You might last a couple of minutes if you are lucky before someone shoves an umbrella up your ignorant ass.

Innocent victims of war are exactly that, innocent. Trying to apply double standards is never going to win the moral argument against terror. The innocent who died in Japan and New York all deserve remembrance.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Elisabete
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:39 am

planespotterx....a quick question: does England also have a holiday or holidays for all the killings, pain and suffering that they too have caused to other lands, territories or/and nations during the period of its Empire? For example, do you have a holiday for the killings that England caused to Ireland?

We all have other opinions and views on America and wonderful to debate too. Right now, the rest of the world dislike America, I believe not the American people but our current President and his Administration, which they are entitled .....

What I do not understand is why do other nations forget their own histories? Why, for example, do the English people criticize America, without first addressing their own sins towards others since the beginning of their own history. Additionally why, for example, don't the French people examine the time that they too were an Empire under that famous, little General named Napoleon ....what right did Napoleon have to invade the rest of Europe?

(I will share a personal example ...My ancestors are from a Portuguese region known as "Coimbra." When Napoleon decided to invade Portugal, a famous battle took place near the border of Portugal/Spain, but inside of Portuguese territory. The name of this place was "Almeida." The men of my mother's side of the family were soldiers in that battle, which, by the way, the Portuguese kicked the French's asses lolol ...why is this battle so important to my family? Due to this famous battle, my ancestors on my mother's side of the family adoped the last name of "de Almeida" to show that they too participate in that famous battle against the French and this story has been carried down to the present.)

The bottom line is that yes, right now, America is a superpower but if history teaches us anything, Empires rise and fall, superpowers also rise and fall. Most importantly, however, most of the nations must first look at themselves...look at their own history ...and if they are without sin, then criticize us, our government, our policies....if they are with sin like us, then please think carefully before you write and speak .......

I apologize for changing the topic. In conclusion, both attacks are at equal footing and it is still to early in the game, to fully understand and see the impact of Sept.11th...three years is not enough .....
Get over it ! lol
 
JetService
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:48 am

Whaddya mean "anymore"?  

C-boy, you caught me off-guard with that one. Now I need to clean the Pepsi off my display. LMFAO
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cptkrell
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:03 am

My personal answer to the SPECIFIC question is simple in my own mind: 9-11 was worse.

The Pearl attack was an act of war aimed at a military target, whereas the 9-11 adventure was an act of war specifically designed against a non-military populace. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
AMS
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:23 am

I have visited Ground-Zero last week, and I was surprised to see this location has become a Hudge Tourist attraction. Off course its still quite a strange feeling standing at the actual site were this horrible situation happened.

Regards,
AMS
 
mdsh00
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:41 am

I believe that 9/11 was worse as it was a civilian attack. Not to mention that so many people around the world saw it happen live.

planespotterx..like what Elisabete said, the British should be having remembrances for events like the Massacre of Amritsar where hundreds of peaceful protesters (mostly women and children) in India were fired upon by a British regiment, and couldn't escape as the protesters were in a compound.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
ly7e7
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:39 am

Pearl Harbor attack was a part of the WWII. Painful as it was , it was an act of war , rather than a terror attack on civilians. There's a big difference.

Today my thoughts are with New Yorkers and all of the US nation.

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MidnightMike
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:21 am

The nuclear attacks on the two cities of Japan occured during a time of war, hence the name World War II, big difference on what happend during 9/11.
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flymia
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:27 pm

The 9/11 attacks were much more tragic! It was inicent people just at work or as PAX in a plane. And also the crews and PD and FD that is why it is remembered as worse.
Pearl Harbour was horrible, but they were Navy and Air Force members and a war was going on.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
JetService
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:39 pm

The nuclear attacks on the two cities of Japan occured during a time of war, hence the name World War II, big difference on what happend during 9/11.

Not to mention, had the nuke attacks not taken place, we'd be mourning a lot more lost souls around March and November.
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AvObserver
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:47 pm

PlanespotterX, while the innocents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki deserve to be remembered, as they undoubtedly still are in Japan, it's a bit different from 9/11, a terrorist attack. You can argue that U.S. foreign policies that inflame hatred in the Muslim world were a catalyst for it and I won't argue, there's surely some rationale, there. However, 9/11 was a brutal, unprovolked strike at the U.S.'s pre-eminent financial center and military headquarters. The WTC in particular was singled out due to its large civilian workforce and potential for a high death toll, making it especially symbolic for Muslim extremist hatred. What the U.S. did in the two Japanese, though horrible for the civilians who suffered (and yes, I've read John Hersey's superb book, "Hiroshima", which details the agony of the first city's victims) was simply a part of wartime strategy to force a Japanese surrender, not a deliberate plot to kill civilians en masse. The philosophies behind the nuke attacks and that of 9/11 were vastly different. Obviously, the U.S. didn't start the conflict with the Japanese while Al Queda most definitely initiated this new War On Terror with their strikes on us. The U.S. alternative to the nukes would have been a full-scale invasion of Japan, which would have cost vastly more Japanese civilian lives, as well as that of many our troops. It can't be forgotten that the U.S. spent huge sums to rebuild Japan after the war; would Al Queda be so generous were they to win this new war? The difference between conventional wartime conduct and terrorist conduct is that they prefer to hit, rather than avoid, civilians. In the old wars, civilian casualties were collateral damage, in this new one, for the Muslim terrorists, anyway, civilians are the primary target. Look at what just happened in Russia! I mourn the Japanese who died and suffered in that old war, it was a most terrible thing, which was nevertheless, simply part of war. The difference in the new war is that the terrorists didn't start it because of any specific thing we'd done to them, as was the case in most of the old wars, but simply because our lifestyle, philosophies and government are hugely different from theirs and that we help others who differ from them as well, like Israel. They simply refuse to compromise, just denounce our way of living and try to kill us. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was not nearly so heinous as what Al Queda and friends are trying to do to us; it was out of frustration over our economic blockade and mainly a military target. It seems the old rules of war no longer apply. I'm not supportive of the U.S.-led War in Iraq, which I think has diverted resources away from stopping more Al Queda attacks, however a lot of good will still come out of that, even if the reasons for going in weren't fully justified. I grieve for the many Iraqi civilian casualties but the population as a whole is better off without the tyranny of Hussein, though I acknowledge that alone doesn't justify the war. I believe Iraq being tied in with 9/11 is misleading, given no verifiable connections between Saddam and Al Queda, however, he is of like sentiment with them about the U.S. so the potential for them to collaborate was there. The 9/11 attacks didn't kill nearly as many as the U.S. did in Japan or even in Iraq, recently but in terms of what they represented, they are among the most evil acts ever committed, being rivaled only by the recent Madrid train bombing and the assault on the Russian school.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:00 pm

Definitly 9/11.... Pearl Harbor was just a military power play like hundreds before it. September 11th will define the next decades as the single event that marked the shift into a new political era.

What's so unfortunate is the entire world really dropped the ball on a perfect oppurtunity to define a new world order. We'd all been kinda running around doing our own thing after the fall of the USSR, 9/11 could have been the event that really pulled a cohesive global community together. Very few people outside of sheer extremist cheered when the U.S. was hit, whereas in 1914, if the nation enjoying "place in the sun" was harmed, people danced in the street. Humanity has come so damn far in just 100 years, and 9/11 could have been another step forward.

I fault so many parties with this failure to aquiesce that it is mindboggeling... but in the end, it really was every single person in the western world. I think Bush took the wrong stance on 9/11, and with an 85+% approval rating, he took that message and ran like hell-

What Bush Said-
Let's go get'em

What we replied-
Yayyy!!

What Bush should have said
Look bitches, its the year 2000 frickin 1, we can't let these systems to stand-
A. Terror
B. Poverty
C. Social Injustice
D. Radical/unrepresentative forms of governement

What we should have replied-
Wow that's deep, I thought you were stupid or somethin

It isn't as simple as blaming Bush, as he acted as just about every single man in his position would have. It takes great men that come only once in a century to not take the easier course of action...
 
greatansett
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:05 pm

9/11 was unavoidable but it was a good wake up check to the USA.
Ron Paul 2012
 
VC-10
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:46 pm

Pearl Harbor attack was a part of the WWII

No it wasn't. War had not been declared on the US, they were neutral at the time of PH. It was that attack that brought America into the war
 
QIguy24
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:04 pm

I must say 9/11 as well. No one knew this was coming. At least of what I know. This came as a great chock for everybody except the people knowing about it.

But like others have written so far we must not only remember this one because it happened in the US. There are so many terrorist attacks around the world and slaughtering of innocent people. But we donøt remember them. Just look at Rwanda. Hell.... NO one even mentions that anymore. If that happened in the US or in the western world everybody remember it.
 
VC-10
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:07 pm

No-one knew PH was coming
 
qr332
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:20 pm

People only remember what they want to remember and care about what they want QI - 9/11 was horiffic, but it caused America to wake up and realise that they are not the ideal nation in everybody's eyes. But, Americans seem to think this stuff only happens to them a lot of the time, and forget that many people around the world are suffering from terrorism, oppression, occupation, etc.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
777236ER
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:25 pm

They were the enemy, and we were trying to bring the enemy to its knees

I can imagine Osama Bin Laden saying exactly the same thing on September 12th 2001.

If we didn't worry so much about hurting the innocent the war in Iraq would have been over a long time ago

It's a bit pointless 'saving a country from a ruthless dictator' when there aren't any people left to enjoy the saved country.

Do you realise you just justified September 11th?
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FJWH
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:26 pm

How many people got killed in Pearl Harbor?

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L410Turbolet
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:32 pm

....they are not the ideal nation in everybody's eyes.

so they deserve to be told by means of airliner hijackings and slamming them into skyscrapers, killing thousands?

[Edited 2004-09-11 15:55:38]
 
qr332
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:46 pm

so they deserve to be told by means of airliner hijackings and slamming them into skyscrapers, killing thousands? I'd think you're joking but since I've read your post:

Nobody deserves this, im just saying they woke up to the rest of the world. Are you telling me Americans, on average, were aware of world events, and were not ignorant? Please dont start putting words in my mouth. I feel very sorry for all the people who suffered that day and their families, and may they rest in peace. Again, nobody deserves this.

280 millon Arab citizens, and more than 1 billion muslims on the top of this planet, do believe that these 14 Palestinians are:

1. Freedom fighters.
2. The creme de la creme of all the Arab/Palestinian society.
3. Source of respect, pride and inspiration to the whole Arab nation.

Long live and God bless every Palestinian freedom fighter, .. every man, woman, child and elderly fighting and struggling against the terrorism of State, and the occupation of Palestine.


What are you going on about?! I didn't write that! Also, what 14 Palestinians are you reffering to?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:04 pm

QR,
I'm apologize about the second part of my previous post, it was cedarwings who wrote it. I edited my mistake.
Neverthelss, what does public awareness about world issues, or lack of it rather has to do with being subject to cowardly terrorist attack?

one mnore time: it caused America to wake up and realise that they are not the ideal nation in everybody's eyes.
I can't help it but I do see an effort for justification in your post.
 
jasepl
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:12 pm

Not having been directly affected in any way by either, I really can't comment on which one was worse.

What I do honestly feel, however, is that 11 September has been "glorified" to an extent that belittles similarly tragic events that have occured in countless countries for years. In my mind, not one's worse than the other. It's just the number of fatalities that differ. I would club all of them together, whether it's 11 September, Pan Am, Air India, Madrid, Ulster, Bali or the regular attacks in many countries including Russia, Turkey, Britain, Spain, India or Indonesia.
 
qr332
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:27 pm

L410, don't you ever tell me I am justifying something as horrible as this, I am saying that when this horrible attack happened, America woke up, thats it. What am I justifying? I am saying they care more about international issues now, and, again, have woken up. Also, I am saying not everyone likes America, and now Americans see this, they arent ignorant about the issue like before. Please tell me what I said wrong her. And, what I am also saying, is that America seems to forget they are not the only ones who have been hit with something like this.

I will also edit my post to remove the reply.

EDIT: The edit post button has dissapeared, so I cant do anything about it.

[Edited 2004-09-11 16:29:11]
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:24 am

How many people got killed in Pearl Harbor?

2,403 Navy personnel were killed in the attack, mostly seamen onboard moored ships..

What I do honestly feel, however, is that 11 September has been "glorified" to an extent that belittles similarly tragic events that have occured in countless countries for years. In my mind, not one's worse than the other

Well, there is a difference. September 11, regardless of the casualties, is brining about long-lasting implications that we will carry with us for the next decades. We have all been sort of going with the flow post-Cold War, but now we are going in a direction. What direction I don't know.

The PanAm bombing won't. The other bombings will defintly be remebered in their regions, but none will match 9/11 as a truely global event.
 
slider
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:04 am

9/11 isn't "glorified" as much as it's used as a benchmark for many Americans in many ways.

This day is THE critical post Cold War point in American history. Period. It marks, for better or worse, a macabre turning point in 1) our foreign policy and decisions towards hostile regimes, 2) the very size, scope and emphasis of the US military and it's post Cold War capabilities (that arguably weren't structured properly after the fall of the USSR), and 3) our relationships with the rest of the world.

To the latter point, much has been said, and I won't rehash it, but whether you agree or disagree, we're not sitting on the sidelines anymore with regard to global terrorism, or acts of terorr toward Americans.
 
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STT757
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:27 am

"Well thousands died in the nuclear attacks carried out by the US, and we dont have any "holidays" or one minute silence for them. "

We don't have holidays either for the Hundreds of thousands of Germans who died during Allied (British and American) fire bombings of Dresden and Nurenbug, the tactic of fire bombing Cities in Germany and Japan killed many more than the bombing of Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Yet 60 years later people still talk about Hiroshima and Nagasaki because it was the first use of a Atomic weapon, which if Germany or Japan had developed before the US they would have not hesitated to use.

BTW..

There's no holiday for 9-11, not yet atleast. And there's no National moment of Silience, people choose to remember as they personaly choose.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:47 am

these 14 Palestinians

...who are these "14 Palestinians" of whom you speak????
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ly7e7
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:07 am

...who are these "14 Palestinians" of whom you speak????

14 members of Hamas killed last week in the IDF attack on a terrorist training camp in the Gaza Strip
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
qr332
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:12 am

Oh, now I get it. Please, L410, check before saying it was me who said this next time, in case you haven't noticed I haven't been on since the 2nd.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
jasepl
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:34 am

The other bombings will defintly be remebered in their regions, but none will match 9/11 as a truely global event.

I'm sorry Dfw. It was a lot of things, but I won't go so far as to call it a global event. What happened afterwards, including the condemnation and support for attacking Afghanistan, was an international effort, yes. But how would you consider a group of people carrying out an attack in America against American interests / symbols / etc a global event?

Also, only slightly related, but as I was saying on the other thread: What I really don't get is the need to Dianafy the whole thing. The TV and political types all bang on and on and on and on about the day that changed America. Yet, the very fact they're saying it at all, shows that nothing's changed.

[Edited 2004-09-11 21:37:04]
 
mdsh00
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:00 am

Jasepl,

I believe he means it is a global event because so many foreign nationals died on that day as well.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Opinions About 9/11

Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:24 am

I believe he means it is a global event because so many foreign nationals died on that day as well.

No I meant what I said

But how would you consider a group of people carrying out an attack in America against American interests / symbols / etc a global event?

You hit the nail on the head with symbols, and I applaud you because many people over look that. Throwing aside all the Hollywood, fast food, lazy, sterotypical perversions of what is "American," the U.S. stands behind and represents these basic tenets-

1. Democracy is preferable to (fill in any repressive form of government)
2. Peace is preferable to war
3. Capitalism is preferable to (fill in any regulated form of economy)
4. Exportation of these ideals is not only necessary, but a duty

American's don't always fufill these ideals, but they are in esscene who we are. Look around, post-WWII and post-9/11, the U.S. has done a damn good job exporting these ideas, with blatantly obvious exceptions.

What many American's (especially Republicans) fail to realize, is that these are liberal ideas. Not libertarian, but liberal in the sense that power to the people, peace, and economic competition are all really liberal and forward thinking when you consider it.

A whole lot of people resent Americans for this, but the majority of them resent the bastardization of these ideas more than anything else. They don't hate democracy, they hate having 20 McDonnalds on one block of Berlin. They don't hate capitalism, they hate being overrun by stupid American trends. They don't hate peace, they hate knowing their national foreing policy doesn't always have the place in the sun it had in older days.

But Al-Queda and simmilar elements do. And in hating these values so, they also hate every western democracy and a good number of eastern nations. America is place in the sun right now, probably will be there for a while, but Al-Queda marks the new illiberal regime for this era. They don't want progress, they aren't freedom fighters any more than the Nazi's and Soviets were, and they are fighting a hopeless cause.

With the exception of Pharonic Egypt, illiberal regimes are always short-lived, and end in crushing defeat. Unfortunatly, this makes Al-Queda a very desperate entity, who will likely persue highly destructive means of "persuasion" (like nuclear weapons) to make their hopeless point.

Okay... I've made my pitch, I'll shut up now  Big grin

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