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Aaron747
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TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:54 am

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040920/

Unfortunately one must be a subscriber to read the entirety of the article - but I assure you, if you were ever on the fence about this issue or have adopted the position of 'well, it's okay because...' I urge you to read this astounding piece.

It is LONG PAST high time for us to address immigration and stand up to the political indifference/hypocrisy and corporate collusion that allow this disgusting situation to continue. Whether you are Republican, Democrat or whatever else, this concerns you as an American citizen. Both major parties have done irreparable harm on this issue with their inability to address it.

Who Left the Door Open?

Despite all the talk of homeland security, sneaking into the U.S. is scandalously easy—and on the rise. Millions of illegal aliens will pour across the U.S.-Mexican border this year, many from countries hostile to America. TIME looks at the damage, the dangers and the reasons the U.S. fails to protect itself

The U.S.'s borders, rather than becoming more secure since 9/11, have grown even more porous. And the trend has accelerated in the past year. It's fair to estimate, based on a TIME investigation, that the number of illegal aliens flooding into the U.S. this year will total 3 million—enough to fill 22,000 Boeing 737-700 airliners, or 60 flights every day for a year. It will be the largest wave since 2001 and roughly triple the number of immigrants who will come to the U.S. by legal means.

http://i.timeinc.net/time/covers/1101040920/images/blockquote_1.gif

http://i.timeinc.net/time/covers/1101040920/map/images/map.jpg
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
North County
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:12 am

Saw this story two days ago - Finally they elevating this to a national level.

For the whole story:

http://www.kfi640.com/time_dooropen.html
 
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Aaron747
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:15 am

We can elevate it all we want - question is, will this ever get the attention it really deserves? Or are our concerns as citizens forever lost to political externalities complicating an already complicated situation?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Matt D
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:44 am

There's nothing complicated about this at all.

1. Stop supporting illegals.

2. Round 'em up and deport 'em.

3. Seal up our borders tighter than KROC's ass whenever LHMark is around.
 
levent
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:05 am

Why don´t you just build a very, very high wall around your country with very, very thick walls and no gates at all? And see how long you survive by yourselves.
 
leviticus
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:05 am

Seriously, it would be a great way to create employment too, just hire 2 million people for boarder patrol and it would solve a lot of problems. This is what tax money should go too.
 
WellHung
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:09 am

Definitely. It's worth it to pay 20x more to keep the people out of the country than it is to deal with them once they get in.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:09 am

It's not that simple at all.

Liberals will never support rounding up and deporting illegals for 'civil rights' and 'humanitarian' concerns and conservatives will never voluntarily tell business entities they're in cahoots with to stop skirting the law by directly recruiting cheap illegal labor. Until we can tell these so-called 'representatives' of ours where to go, nothing will change.

As for some of the intellectually-challenged comments made thus far in this thread, all I have to say is please refrain from speaking on this most serious of topics unless you have something meaningful to say.



[Edited 2004-09-16 02:11:37]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
levent
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:14 am

You´ll probably use Mexicans to patrol those borders anyway, as you´re too busy saving the rest of the world against the Arabs...
 
Matt D
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:14 am

We don't need a big ass wall. Hell if we enforced our laws and eliminated the incentive for them to come here, a fence of chicken wire would suffice.

Liberals will never support rounding up and deporting illegals for 'civil rights' and 'humanitarian' concerns and conservatives will never voluntarily tell business entities they're in cahoots with to stop skirting the law by directly recruiting cheap illegal labor. Until we can tell these so-called 'representatives' of ours where to go, nothing will change.


I'm afraid I agree with you 100%.
 
desertjets
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:20 am

As usual the regular classist, racist opinions come out and immediately label the immigrants as a scourge.

The reason why illegal immigration is as big a problem as it currently is due to the demand for low wage labor for outstrips the supply of "legal" immigrants. If the jobs were not here and readily available you can bet your bottom dollar that they would not be flocking across the border by the thousands. They aren't here for the hell of it and piss you off. They are here because there are jobs readily available that are better paying than in their home country.

Now to solve the problem you need to do several things. One is to drastically increase the number of work visas available for legal immigrants. Secondly you need to crack down, seriously, on employers who exploit illegals. But this is where the problem really exists. Everyone from small mom and pop operations, to large multi-nationals make extensive use of illegal labor. The construction industry, the hospitality industry, agriculture use illegal labor and have enough political clout to quietly support continued illegal immigration.

Fortifying the US-Mexico border is not the answer. Since we have built up the border at the major cities illegals have begun crossing in more remote desolate areas. And the death toll is simply appaling. I believe we now have more deaths with people crossing the US-Mexico border than any other border crossing in the world.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
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Aaron747
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:27 am

The reason why illegal immigration is as big a problem as it currently is due to the demand for low wage labor for outstrips the supply of "legal" immigrants. If the jobs were not here and readily available you can bet your bottom dollar that they would not be flocking across the border by the thousands. They aren't here for the hell of it and piss you off. They are here because there are jobs readily available that are better paying than in their home country.

Nobody is disputing any of this. I don't know where you're deriving classist or racist opinions from either. My family is Mexican-American. The POINT here is that the current system is non sustainable, unethical, and does more harm than good for *all* involved.

For the record, I'd much rather be helping out Mexico in a structural fashion, providing strong disincentives for the hopelessly corrupt pols there to encourage the situation at hand, than giving out the multibilliondollar handout to Iraq we're currently dispensing.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
levent
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:37 am

There we go, DesertJets, you got that right. To the other guys, I don´t give the comments I do to piss you off, but what´s your point by blaming the immigrants for all your misery? Exactly the same problem exists in Europe. In Holland for example, in the sixties thousands of workers from Turkey, Morocco etc were "invited" to come and work in the factories. One reason was a shortage of own workers due to the effects of WWII, and another "secret" one the reluctancy of the Dutch to work whole days in miserable conditions in textile factories, agriculture and so on. The immigrants settled down and had their families come over, and without them the country wouldn´t have flourished as it has. The same goes for nearly every Western country.
The problem is, people don´t see the difference between honest, hard working immigrants and advantage takers who just come to make easy money. Does any of you feel offended if I´d say you must be part of the KKK, or buddies of your fellow US-citizen Timothy McVeigh? Well, then you know how lots of immigrants feel when you call them bloodsuckers and terrorists without any valid reason.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:39 am

The problem is, people don´t see the difference between honest, hard working immigrants and advantage takers who just come to make easy money. Does any of you feel offended if I´d say you must be part of the KKK, or buddies of your fellow US-citizen Timothy McVeigh? Well, then you know how lots of immigrants feel when you call them bloodsuckers and terrorists without any valid reason.

Please at least *read* the article before spewing uninformed garbage like that. Those of us with half a heart to care are well aware of the situation in Europe. Clearly, so far, you're only able to see the angles of this that you're inclined to. Open your eyes a bit more and you might see the rest.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
levent
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:53 am

You posted your reply while mine was underway, Aaron747... computers and connections sometimes also account for misunderstandings.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:00 am

Exactly the same problem exists in Europe. In Holland for example, in the sixties thousands of workers from Turkey, Morocco etc were "invited" to come and work in the factories.

Isn't it also true that these people often live in self-contained communities with little interest to learn the language and interact with the rest of the society? And that children of these economic immigrants, who grew up in relative economic prosperity and received education in their respective European countries are willing to listen to preachings of radical Islamic clerics? Clerics who very often act as recruiting officers for jihad and are capable to influence the whole community by both the power of faith and lack of "social capital" among members of the community.
I believe that's the case in France, the UK with widely medialised cases of "honor killings" and I've read an article about Somali minority in Denmark, where medical checks of schoolage children revealed that many Somali girls are still undregoing the barbaric "circumcision" even in DK. And that some parents don't hesitate to send their daughter "on holidays" to Somalia, where she is undergoing this "operation" - hygienic conditionare easy to imagine.
 
Matt D
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:03 am

 
levent
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:13 am

Don´t mix up people´s weaknesses regarding religion with social abilities, L410Turbolet. Most of the original immigrants were brought over from remote villages in Morocco and Eastern Turkey, and already were living in a very limited and close society. If they don´t accept any outside influences in their own country, how can you expect them to integrate in a completely different culture?
Anything that bears the name ´fundementalist´ is wrong in my opinion, in any religion. My grandparents are Muslim and I strongly reject some of their opinions, but it´s their life and their culture. And the same goes for any Christian or Jew who tries to convince me how right his religion is.
If you´d go on holiday to modern Turkey, you´ll meet a totally different people to those you would see in the poor areas of Dutch cities. A city like Istanbul is not comparable to Adana in the southeast of the country.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:18 am

Levent,
there's no discusion abou that. My point was that it's an interesting sociological phenomena that it's the second generation of immigrants who are very "fertile ground" for radicalism. Generation born, raised and educated in the West.
 
levent
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:24 am

Might be due to a feeling of being left out by both their traditional parents, who they don´t feel comfortable with, and the Western culture, that doesn´t accept them as normal fellow countrymen. Which makes them weak to radical groups who do offer them this sense of being accepted.
 
NKP S2
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:43 am

It's not that simple at all

Liberals will never support rounding up and deporting illegals for 'civil rights' and 'humanitarian' concerns and conservatives will never voluntarily tell business entities they're in cahoots with to stop skirting the law by directly recruiting cheap illegal labor. Until we can tell these so-called 'representatives' of ours where to go, nothing will change

Actually, the crux of the issue really IS that simple. The above paragraph is spot on and accurately condensed.

 
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Aaron747
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 11:25 am



they look good, but my grandmother's are better.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tbar220
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:18 pm

A very interesting thought, should illegal immigrants be forced to serve in the United States armed forces if they wish to remain in this country? Lets say for two years. Would that be enough to dissuade them from coming?
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ArgInMIA
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:30 pm

Have you seen the movie.. "The day after tomorrow"? It shows you why you should never spit up..
Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
QIguy24
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:36 pm

Tbar,

Do you honestly think that?? Just look how many poor people who does that in the US already. What makes you think that the illegal immigrants wouldn't do the same? They would do anything to be allowed to stay in the US.

To be honest I would have done the same thing if that was my key to be able to live in the US legal.
 
Sean-SAN-
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:44 am

Republicans = won't do anything, illegal immigrants provide labor for big corporations and businesses.

Democrat = won't do anything to hurt their minority voting base.

Result = Nothing will be done.
 
trijetfan1
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:36 am

There is actually only two politicans who realize this....
Tom Tancredo (r) of Colorado
and
Pat Buchanan
Earned PPL June 26, 2007
 
slider
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:01 am

This is one of my biggest hot button issues, especially living here in TX. I'm disgusted with the way the Republicans and Democrats have danced around this issue. It's also one of the key drivers why I'm not voting Libertarian this year and am opting for the Constitution party. The LP has to get it's head out of its ass on open borders. Here's the CP's plank on immigration:

Immigration

We affirm the integrity of the international borders of the United States and the Constitutional authority and duty of the federal government to guard and to protect those borders, including the regulation of the numbers and of the qualifications of immigrants into the country.

Each year approximately one million legal immigrants and almost as many illegal aliens enter the United States. These immigrants - including illegal aliens - have been made eligible for various kinds of public assistance, including housing, education, Social Security, and legal services. This unconstitutional drain on the federal Treasury is having a severe and adverse impact on our economy, increasing the cost of government at federal, state, and local levels, adding to the tax burden, and stressing the fabric of society. The mass importation of people with low standards of living threatens the wage structure of the American worker and the labor balance in our country.

We oppose the abuse of the H-1B and L-1 visa provisions of the immigration act which are displacing American workers with foreign.

We favor a moratorium on immigration to the United States, except in extreme hardship cases or in other individual special circumstances, until the availability of all federal subsidies and assistance be discontinued, and proper security procedures have been instituted to protect against terrorist infiltration.

We also insist that every individual group and/or private agency which requests the admission of an immigrant to the U.S., on whatever basis, be required to commit legally to provide housing and sustenance for such immigrants, bear full responsibility for the economic independence of the immigrants, and post appropriate bonds to seal such covenants.

The Constitution Party demands that the federal government restore immigration policies based on the practice that potential immigrants will be disqualified from admission to the U.S. if, on the grounds of health, criminality, morals, or financial dependence, they would impose an improper burden on the United States, any state, or any citizen of the United States.

We oppose the provision of welfare subsidies and other taxpayer-supported benefits to illegal aliens, and reject the practice of bestowing U.S. citizenship on children born to illegal alien parents while in this country.

We oppose any extension of amnesty to illegal aliens. We call for the use of U.S. troops to protect the states against invasion.

We oppose bilingual ballots. We insist that those who wish to take part in the electoral process and governance of this nation be required to read and comprehend basic English as a precondition of citizenship. We support English as the official language for all governmental business by the United States.
 
NKP S2
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:08 am

Republicans = won't do anything, illegal immigrants provide labor for big corporations and businesses.

Democrat = won't do anything to hurt their minority voting base.

Result = Nothing will be done


BINGO.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:48 pm

Sean, don´t forget the agriculture area, lot of farming are dependent on inexpensive labor.
Side effect on sealing the border towards Mexico would be less possibilities for
smugglers to smuggle things across the border.
I wonder when Spanish will become official language together with English
in the USofA?



[Edited 2004-09-18 11:54:04]
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
NKP S2
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:47 pm

Sean, don´t forget the agriculture area, lot of farming are dependent on inexpensive labor

So was the pre-civil war south in the US. It was one of their arguments to preserve slavery. Just a bit hyberbolic...but not by much. Illustrative of how chasing a buck can shape social policy.
 
jgore
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:29 am

Well, here's the deal guys:

With the technological power the United States has, it'll be very easy to "seal" the borders and don't let anyone in a illegal status come in.

But.....have you anyone of you ever thought who will do those undesirable jobs the American citizens don't and wouldn't like to do ?. The answer is very simple: Illegal immigrants.

They migrate to the US for a "better" life with higher incomes. So the US takes advantage of that, covering those undesired job positions at the expense of having illegal people.

Again, is not a matter of whether the US is not doing this or that to stop illegal immigration. Because if the US is willing to, be totally sure they can with its technological power.
Every single political issue hides an economical interest. They will keep letting illegal aliens come to United States as long as they still have undesired jobs positions to be filled.

Why do you guys think that the US promised "Green Cards" or "Permanet (legal) Residence" for those foreing and illegal people that are willing to go to the war against whoever enemy is ?. Think about it.

Just my 2 cents

Jgore  Smile



[Edited 2004-09-18 17:33:10]

[Edited 2004-09-18 17:33:56]
 
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yyz717
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:34 am

But.....have you anyone of you ever thought who will make those undesirable jobs the American citizens don't and wouldn't like to do ?.

If illegal immigrants (who predominate as cleaners, factory workers and fruit pickers) are kicked out, the resulting labour shortage will drive up wages in those sectors making them attractive to Americans. Simple supply and demand.

I bet 98% of aneters would be a fruit picker if it paid $80k pa. Since it pays only $20k pa (I'm guessing here) no Americans are interested.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jgore
Posts: 518
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RE: TIME: Illegal Immigration Out Of Control

Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:20 am

I bet 98% of aneters would be a fruit picker if it paid $80k pa. Since it pays only $20k pa (I'm guessing here) no Americans are interested.

Well, you said it. Crap jobs are attractive to illegal people who find them better than their country's wages.
In other words, they fill positions Americans don't want to.

In the other hand, illegal immigrants are not likely to leave those jobs, because that's the only thing they can get as the result of being in a illegal status.

Jgore  Smile

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