Qb001
Topic Author
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:34 am

Normal, the American health care system is mediocre, the second worst of all OECD countries (slightly better than in Turkey). Not that it can't be good; it could be the best. But it needs major reform. Big time.

A poll of 1,202 Americans, conducted earlier this month, showed that:

- Two-thirds (67%) want a government health insurance program. Even when prompted with the phrase "Canadian-style health care" (which most Americans wrongfully equate with socialized medicine), 61% still said yes.

- More than a third of those using prescription drugs either buy them in Canada (6%) or plan to (33%).

- 18% said they were skipping medications or reducing dosages to save money.

- More than half (56%) of those with health insurance said they were either paying more or getting less coverage. 13% said their premiums had gone up while their benefits had gone down.

- An overwhelming majority (78%) agreed with the statement: "The U.S. should treat health care like other necessities of life, such as water and electricity that are regulated by government to ensure fair prices, accountability, access for everyone and quality services."

The entire poll, plus its methodology and margin of error, can be found at http://www.resultsforamerica.org/calendar/files/RFA%20CSI%20Healthcare%20FINAL.pdf

And if you agree with the preceding findings, don't vote for Bush, whose health care plan is essentially "Pray you won't get sick".
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:36 am

By the same argument, 51% of Cdns want a mixed private/public health care system. The Cdn system is hardly something the Americans should emulate.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
yanksn4
Posts: 1367
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:05 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:30 pm

Great! With there already being enough bureatratic mess in health care today, lets just create more with this system. Oh Happy Day!  Insane

Signed,
Matthew
2013 Airports: EWR, JFK, LGA, LIS, AGP, DEN, GIG, RGN, BKK, LHR, FRA, LAX, SYD, PER, MEL, MCO, MIA, PEK, IAH
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:44 pm

Any American who wants nationalized health care has never had to seek treatment in a VA or BIA hospital. When the Veterns Administration and the Bureau of Indian Affairs gets their national health care programs up to the point where they are actually a model for a national system, then I might consider nationalizing or socialing health care.

We currently would do more harm going national based on the current government run health care systems.

Now on the question of reform and reducing costs, I do have some thoughts.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:55 pm

"A poll of 1,202 Americans.."

What percent of those 1,202 Americans had no health care? Probably all of them. Why else would they want some gov't pencil pusher telling them what medical treatment they can or cannot have?

Sounds like a very credible and highly reliable poll.  Insane
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:26 pm

Jeff, do you know that all of them had no health care? Do you even know that half of them do? Of course not. So how the hell can you discredit it for those reasons?
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:07 pm

Americans are going to say that they want a government insurance program because they expect it to basically be like any other insurance CURRENTLY available to those who are offered it through their company. If they had a chance to see how bad the health care is in Canada they would change their minds fast. In America we expect the best and most up to date of care and if we get anything less we will sue you! We will not stay in a hospital if we have to share a room, we will not stay in a hospital if we do not get room service, and we will not stay in a hospital if it does not resemble a hotel. Americans also expect speedy service in the ER, if surgical is needed we want our own personal nurse to accompany us and we expect to get the newest best drugs on the market. Our current health system as bad as it is, is far better than any government run system. Even if you are a person that cant afford to pay the bills you get better care than you would if you had the gov health care. We are very spoiled in the US and don't know it. The government would have already gave us health care if they could do it in the same way that Canada is set up but the fact is they cant. We want better....!
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:33 pm

The US has a life expectancy that ranks 48th in the world (first major countries are Japan, Australia and Switzerland). All those other socialized healthcare countries must be doing something right.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:44 pm

The US has a life expectancy that ranks 48th in the world (first major countries are Japan, Australia and Switzerland). All those other socialized healthcare countries must be doing something right.

You can't put all that onto medicine. Various things affect life expectancy numbers, including wars, crime, traffic accident rates, urbanization, air pollution, etc.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:47 pm

Ok, let me tell you what america needs to do.

1. Stop using insurance for every damm medical bill. There are reasons why homeowners and car insurance have deductables. Get the highest one you can afford. That will reduce your bill.

Using health insurance for day to day checkups and the like is like using your auto insurance for getting the tires rotated or the oil changed on your car. It just adds to the price.

2. Pay your doctor cash for routine checkups. Cash only practices are actually gaining popularity, One of the biggest drivers behind health insurance costs is the accounting to get repayment from and insurance plan. Ever wonder why medical billing was such a big field...insurace companies. There was an article in the paper a few months back, sorry can't quote it, and one doctor who when to a cash only practice mentioned that prior to doing that his clinic had over 2000 different insurance plans that it had to bill for his customers.

Cash only clinics will seriously reduce the accounting costs associated with clinics.

3. Don't pay a guy for an 8 year education if you don't need too. Go to a P/A or a CNA instead to get those four stiches you need from when you nicely slide that 3/4 inch chisel into your hand. A hell of a lot of minor medical procedures don't need 8 years of Havard Med to fix. That stitches example, The US Army can train a 91W in 16 weeks? and probably do a better job of it too.

[Edited 2004-09-19 08:50:59]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:59 pm

L-188,
You have some points there if I was a person without insurance. But if I can go see the Doctor for $10 why the hell not? Again with the whole we are spoiled thing, I want that Doctor to see if im in there for something as little as a overgrown finger nail, I don't want some damn CNA or even a RN for that matter. I want the Doctor that went to school for 8 years and hopefully even more. I want the best and if that is what I can get im sure the hell not going to settle for anything less. Again you do have a point though and I am a perfect example of the person that will use it all!

*Note I have never been to the Doctor regarding my nails!
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:06 pm

Hey UAL747DEN

I did a little searching, please watch this NBC video about cash only practices and tell me what you think.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5014568/

Edit: I don't agree with the numbers that Havard doc came up with on the "Limited number of people helped" and his point about it being only for the very healthy/rich is BS. Note that I said you still need catasrophic insurance with the highest deductable you can afford.

[Edited 2004-09-19 09:08:44]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:22 pm

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:08 am

What percent of those 1,202 Americans had no health care? Probably all of them

What percent of those 1,202 Americans had a place to live? Or had a phone to answer the poll?

The US has the most inefficient medical system in the world in my opinion. In comparison to Canada's healthcare system, (which I concede is not perfect) the US government diverts more tax-money per-captita on its healthcare system than Canada, and not only does it not offer universal care, the end product is that Americans don't live as long as Canadians and they have a high infant mortality rate.

http://www.who.int/countries/can/en/
http://www.who.int/countries/usa/en/

You guys just aren't getting your money's worth. One of the biggest deterents is the fear that someone will get something for nothing. In my opinion, Americans lack charitable and diplomatic skills in comparison to other modern countries.

You guys don't seem to realize that a healthy person is one that can work, spend money and pay taxes.

Furthermore, the insurance companies have Americans in a death grip. The doctors exploit the fact every chance they get.

When someone walks into a clinic in the US and they happen to have health insurance, you can bet that person will be exposed to every high-tech diagnostic process and treatment that the doctor can reasonably throw at him/her. Every headache gets an MRI.

I am proud to say that we aren't quite so concerned about who ultimately gets help and what the circumstances are when it comes to medical care.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2004/08/20/593127.html

Have a healthy day. If you can afford it....
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:13 am

Why are you Canadians so concerned about our health care system. It's not like there are scores of uninsured US citizens streaming into Canada to get on the government dole and receive free healthcare?
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:27 am

2. Pay your doctor cash for routine checkups.

I am starting to think that this may be the best way. There are days where I wonder why I can get a medical from an AME for $40, yet the same exact procedure would cost my insurance around $100 at my family doctor.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15253
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:33 am

In a related poll, it was also discovered most Americans wanted higher pay and lower taxes.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N6376M
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:39 am

I run a mid-size company. Our heath insurance premiums have literally doubled in 4 years on a per person basis.

I am absolutely convinced that with 5 years, traditional health insurance plans will be replaced by medical savings accounts. These accounts are coupled with high deductible insurance plans. The employee deposits money into the account on a yearly basis. The first several thousand dollars of expense each year must be paid by the employee out of these account balances, however, if the money is not fully used in a year, the balance rolls over.

Using the law of averages, in any given year a reasonably health person will not incur $3,000 of medical expenses so the account builds in value. However every so many year each of us can expect to have a big health care cost. The idea is that over time, your account balance is big enough that you can pay for these expense yourself and then you high deductible insurance plan takes over.

Premium savings are about 50% versus tradition saving plans. At my company we're looking at transitioning on Jan 1. We'll fund $3,000 into each employee's account year 1 (thereby almost ensuring that nobody will be worse off) and keep our health care spending flat. Year 2 and beyond, we'll cut our contribution some what and expect to realize real savings while maintaining access to affordable health care for all our full time employees.

The best part about these plans is that at retirement, the entire balance is tax-free. It's essentially a ROTH IRA that you fund with pre-tax income.

The idea behind the plan is that if employees are responsible for the first couple thousand dollars of cost themselves, they'll think twice about requesting certain drugs and referrals to specialist.
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:10 am

I think that people also need to remember that nationalizing health care in a country of 300 million people (and growing) is an enormous feat. Our healthcare is not inefficient and bad. There is a reason that people fly halfway around the world for medical treatment in the US.

My feeling is that there needs to be change in the health-care system here, but I don't think that adopting Canada's system is right either. Somewhere in the middle might work out better, such as nationalizing minor treatments. The way it is right now, I think that many doctors feel that even the government could do better than the conniving HMOs.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:20 am

A bit OT, but something I've always wondered.

Supposedly, Americans are the #1 per capita consumers of (legal) pharmaceuticals. Got me wondering just how unhealthy Americans are! Do they really need to ingest so many drugs, or is there some sort of passive hypochondriac-type tendency that they get from the air or water over there?

I mean, as Mir pointed out, Americans rank 48 on life expectancy - which means that the populations of the first 47 combined do not need nearly as many chemicals to keep them alive longer.

Strange, no?
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:28 am

Supposedly, Americans are the #1 per capita consumers of (legal) pharmaceuticals. Got me wondering just how unhealthy Americans are! Do they really need to ingest so many drugs, or is there some sort of passive hypochondriac-type tendency that they get from the air or water over there?

I don't know if it's because I am mostly around pilots, but everyone I know stays away from legal drugs. In particular pain killers.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
galaxy5
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 10:09 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:38 am

Well if we get anything like tricare, a lot of people are truely going to be upset and disappointed.
"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:45 am

Supposedly, Americans are the #1 per capita consumers of (legal) pharmaceuticals. Got me wondering just how unhealthy Americans are! Do they really need to ingest so many drugs, or is there some sort of passive hypochondriac-type tendency that they get from the air or water over there?

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the US also has the highest population of people with access to health care. Yes I know that apparently 44 million do not...but thats 256 that do have access. The other very populous countries in the world (China, India, Indonesia) do not have the same acess to prescription drugs like we do. Not to mention more meticulous record-keeping. Some of these could be allergy medications, which I take many times.


I mean, as Mir pointed out, Americans rank 48 on life expectancy - which means that the populations of the first 47 combined do not need nearly as many chemicals to keep them alive longer.

Average life expectancy has many other factors than just health care. Depending on where you live in the country and other socieoeconomics, living habits like smoking or drinking, can affect life expectancy.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
jasepl
Posts: 3499
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:01 am

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the US also has the highest population of people with access to health care. Yes I know that apparently 44 million do not...but thats 256 that do have access. The other very populous countries in the world (China, India, Indonesia) do not have the same acess to prescription drugs like we do. Not to mention more meticulous record-keeping. Some of these could be allergy medications, which I take many times.

I'm not talking about African or Asian countries - just the first 47 where people live longer than Americans without needing to take nearly as many pharmaceuticals. It's not about access to the drugs but about usage. Why is it that the Americans need to take so many drugs in the first place, and still don't live as long as, for example, the Dutch?

I haven't seen the life expectancy list, but I should be safe in assuming most of the 47 are European countries or Japan, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. I think people in many of these countries smoke (don't know about drink) more than Americans
 
scottieprecord
Posts: 1208
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:38 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:07 am

I'll bet $100 that Americans eat a crap load more fat per capita than any of those 47 countries.
 
air2gxs
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:29 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:07 am

I'm surprised no mentioned lawsuits. One of the drivers of the high cost of healthcare in the US must be lawsuits. The insurance (malpractice) companies are charging doctors, clinics, hospitals enormous premiums to cover their losses from lawsuits. This in turn forces doctors, et al. to charge more for services. In fact, doctors probably order tests and procedures as a way to cover themselves in case a patient takes a turn for the worse. Of course this forces the insurance (HMO's, PPO's) to pay out more, so they raise their premiums.

The true health care crisis in the US is the growing lack of doctors, especially OB. It seems these doctors and practices have the most exposure to lawsuits. Something has to be done to reign this in.

I'm a true fan of limited government involvement in our lives. The free market usually takes care of over pricing and profiteering, but the one arm of the government (judicial) is already involved heavily in healthcare. It is an outside influence that is punitive rather than regulatory. I reluctantly feel the legislature must get involved and limit the exposure of doctors so they can get back to the business of fixing people and not defending themselves in civil court. Only then can we start reigning in our healthcare costs.

Don't get me wrong, a doctor who is negligent should be made to pay; first in a criminal court and then in a civil court.
 
Duce50Boom
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 8:03 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:07 am

Galaxy5,

You talk about tricare as if it's a bad thing. I've never heard anything bad about it..... Laugh out loud
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:18 am

I'm not talking about African or Asian countries - just the first 47 where people live longer than Americans without needing to take nearly as many pharmaceuticals. It's not about access to the drugs but about usage. Why is it that the Americans need to take so many drugs in the first place, and still don't live as long as, for example, the Dutch?

Remember from statistics that an average decreases as the sampling population increases. So with more people you will have more health problems such as cancer and other diseases like multiple sclerosis, or AIDS. With diseases like that, you have no choice but to take drugs, and it will shorten your life. So with that usage of drugs for cases like chemotherapy. One thing that will set us apart in the future, like someone above said, is the obesity epidemic and ALL of the health probelms it creates. Also the increasing rate of anti-depressant prescriptions, but that is a whole different arguement.

In my opinion, nationalizing health care works in countries with smaller populations, for example Sweeden. More people means more problems.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
rabenschlag
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:28 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:43 am

interesting! i live in a country with a socialised health care system, and i am constantly wondering whether we could do better or worse.

in germany, i think what you get out of the system is quite ok. there is no scare about socialised medicine in germany, besides that some people have to pay others bill.

to be more concrete:
basically, everybody in germany has full access and free choice of doctors. there are very small deductibles for prescriptions and visits at the doctor (e.g. 10 $ per visit).

this is achieved by (a) forcing everybody at work to pay for insurance (b) force them to pay a percentage (i.e. ~13 %) of their income (not a fixed sum). at the same time, doctors act as free entrepreneurs, hospitals are free institutions. it is very different from the british system.

the insurance fee does not depend on your health risk. everybody will be insured.

there is no scarcity. if you need a specific surgery, you get it. soon.


if you want, you can get more with a private additional insurance, but in almost every case, it's not worth the money.

i really do not know whether our system is less efficient than the american one. i do not know the numbers. although i am a strong believer in markets, i somehow have the impression that our system (which is not a free market) optimizes the outcome for everyone. in any case, i believe it optimizes the outcome for joe average.

i really ask you to point at the weaknesses of the system. not for EU vs. US reasons, just because i intrinsically want to know.

cheers, r.







 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:45 am

Sounds like a very credible and highly reliable poll.

2nd  Yeah sure
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:45 am

Healthcare reform would be just that, a complete restructuring of the healthcare system. Knowing the way things are right now, politically, I wouldn't touch it for a while.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:48 am

Why are you Canadians so concerned about our health care system. It's not like there are scores of uninsured US citizens streaming into Canada to get on the government dole and receive free healthcare?

I don't care. And neither do most other Canadians. Its your system, and you can do what you want. I am merely pointing out some obvious flaws. If you want to continue to pay twice as much as we do and get worse service, that's your perogative.

 
ual747den
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:29 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:20 am

Jasepl,
The reason that Americans take more meds than anyone else is because we have them! For example in your country you do not have access to even a quarter of the drugs that we do. In America we have a pill for everything. From a sore throat to pain killers, to drugs to make our nails look good. In most countries people cant afford to use drugs for such petty problems and in countries where there is state insurance they do not cover half of the meds or the drug makers just will not agree to their prices. America has the best Doctors and the best health care of anywhere in the world and that is the reason why we take so many drugs.
Should just throw this out there, in the USA people go to the Doctor for a cough, a cold, a rash, watery eyes, minor cuts, and things like that. In pretty much EVERY other country that it unheard of. Just another disadvantage of living in the richest country in the world!!!!!! NOT
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:20 pm

If you want to continue to pay twice as much as we do and get worse service, that's your perogative.

I'm actually very satisfied and happy with the service that I am getting from my doctor, thank you very much.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
Qb001
Topic Author
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:52 pm

It's fascinating to see how 25 years or so of well-oiled conservative propaganda has succeeded in convincing so many Americans that they should be happy paying 40% more than needed for a system that is the second worst of all OECD countries.

And to answer the question why Canadians are so worried by the inefficiency of the US health care system: obviously, you never saw a bus load of poor, old-age Americans, barely able to walk, coming here to buy affordable prescription drugs. One of the most heart-breaking things I've seen in my life. And you say to yourself: "Those people come from what is supposed to be the richest country on Earth"... Something's wrong, way wrong.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:59 pm

Yeah what is wrong is that Canada has price controls.

The US tried that on food in the 1970's

Remember the videos of farmers drowning baby chicks because they would cost more to feed then to sell?

All you end up with with price controls are shortages and empty shelves.

All Canada's system does is force people into a rationed care system, rationed because the market is not allowed to expand to meet demand. I have see too many stories about waiting lines down there to buy into the idea that the Canadian government sells about how it isn't happening.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:28 pm

All you end up with with price controls are shortages and empty shelves.

I don't know why you say that: our shelves are not empty.

Oh but yeah, I forgot my signature there for a while... It does indeed apply to all right-wing ideologist such as L-188.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:32 pm

Not yet, just wait.

I firmly believe one of two things will happen if the US allows importation of drugs from Canada.

Either

1. Canada will be force to band american purchases because of the drain on the nationalized health care system

2. Drug companies will put out of the Canadian market because they will be unable to make a go of it.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:25 am

I'm actually very satisfied and happy with the service that I am getting from my doctor, thank you very much.

Excellent example of an American who's concern doesn't extend beyond himself.

The question here is much bigger than one person having good access and success with healthcare in my opinion.

Let me ask you this Mdsh00, do you care about Americans who can't afford healthcare? How about Americans who can't afford the same level of healthcare you enjoy?
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:35 am


Excellent example of an American who's concern doesn't extend beyond himself.

Let me ask you this Mdsh00, do you care about Americans who can't afford healthcare? How about Americans who can't afford the same level of healthcare you enjoy?


Don't presume to know what my concern is and is not for others. There is a reason that I am applying for medical school, and it's definitely not the money since I could probably make more money somewhere else.

I didn't say that our system is perfect, in fact it is far from it. It definitely needs to change. There is the problem of 44 million uninsured and if you read my posts above I have offered my opinion. I am simply defending against your attacks of how a person "pays more and gets worse care in the US."

[Edited 2004-09-20 19:36:15]

[Edited 2004-09-20 19:37:04]
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
air2gxs
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:29 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:11 am

Every American has access to health care. Every American does not have access to the same standard of healthcare, nor should they. Health care is part of my compensation package. I work hard for that package. Other people work hard for theirs. Why should those of us who busted, and continue to bust our butts accept a lower standard of care when we have worked, and are working, for the highest standard we can afford for our families?

I say lower standard because that is what will happen under a nationalized health care system. I've seen it in parts of Europe and I don't like it. Ask yourself: Why do people come from around the world to the US for medical care? Its because we have some of the best doctors, researchers and facilities in the world. Doctors and researchers must be paid and facilities must be built.

I'll say it again, the crisis is not high cost, that is a symptom. The crisis is a litigation happy population that feels it is entitled to something which it is not. This is what drives up the cost of health care.

And don't get on your high horse about me only caring for my family and myself. I give to charities and volunteer my time, as does my wife (and so will my children when they get older, God willing), but I have earned the ability (not the right) to have access to a higher standard of care than someone who sat at home and had babies at the age of 16.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:31 am

I work hard for that package.
I'm sure, but what if you loose your job, say in an accident that keeps you out of work for months, years, maybe forever ? In other industrialized countries, such a bad luck has no, or very little, impact on your right to get proper health care.

Why do people come from around the world to the US for medical care?
Some also come here, others go to European countries; you just don't know about it. This is not an issue.

Its because we have some of the best doctors, researchers and facilities in the world.
No doubt about it, but that's not the point. The point is to make those accessible to all. Or, said otherwise, why is it that with that wonderful technology and all, your country achieves one of the lowest life expectancy among industrialized countries ? And an infant mortality rate that is 50% higher than in Canada ?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
slider
Posts: 6806
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:34 am

1) America has the best health CARE in the world, bar none. It is a COST crisis, just as a point of distinction.

2) America is also one of the sickest nations: our lifestyle choices are abysmal for the most part and people need to take more personal responsibility for their actions.

3) Legal issues: as mentioned, the need for tort reform and malpractice reform is critical. Malpractice insurance is KILLING doctors, it's driving them out of business, and driving up the cost of care even further.

4) Illegal immigration: seldom mentioned by politicians, the free and unlimited medical care that is being siphoned off the top by illegals is putting a severe burden on the system. There is no coincidence that border states have a higher rate of hospital closures, ER visits, etc, etc.

5) Pharmaceuticals: at no time in the history of mankind have we had the kind of technology that enables LIFE-SAVING drugs for such a variety of maladies. By the same token, the FDA has kept said life-saving drugs off the market and their launch delayed by years unnecessarily. The cost of regulating pharmaceuticals, R&D, etc is immense. Again, the answer isn't MORE regulation and government, it's to reduce the FDA's involvement so drugs can get to market sooner and cheaper. There's no question drugs are expensive--but if you have the choice to have a life-saving drug that costs $5 a day, and then bitch about coughing up $150/month, where does the real problem lie? That drug didn't even *exist* just a few short years ago. Examples abound.

My company for example is experiencing a 14% YOY increase in medical benefits costs for 2005. That is being passed onto the employee. It's not a dealbreaker, but what other industry do you know (other than petroleum I suppose) that has a whopping 14% jump in price?
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:08 am

The crisis is a litigation happy population that feels it is entitled to something which it is not.

And what's that? The unreasonable expectation that when someone goes in they'll receive competent health care and not have surgical tools left in their bodies, incorrect procedures done, or have a deterioration in their health as a result of a foul-up by their doctor?

3) Legal issues: as mentioned, the need for tort reform and malpractice reform is critical. Malpractice insurance is KILLING doctors, it's driving them out of business, and driving up the cost of care even further.

In every state that's enacted "tort reform," malpractice insurance premiums have continued to skyrocket. Tort reform is not some silver bullet that will cure all the problems of our health care system. Rather, it's a false hope that ends of screwing the patient out of a just outcome should a doctor or hospital act negligently.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
slider
Posts: 6806
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:19 am

In every state that's enacted "tort reform," malpractice insurance premiums have continued to skyrocket. Tort reform is not some silver bullet that will cure all the problems of our health care system. Rather, it's a false hope that ends of screwing the patient out of a just outcome should a doctor or hospital act negligently.

I didn't claim that it was a silver bullet. But it is a contributing factor. And I'm all for accountability, but making a mistake shouldn't bankrupt the system. The punitive damages that are being awarded are excessive in many instances.

You can have justice and a sound system.

I'm worried that the quality of care will suffer, if it hasn't already in some instances, because the current situation is creating a disincentive to not only being a doctor in the first place, but in doing what a doctor feels is right because they're worried about being sued.

No other specialization is this more apparent than Ob/Gyn.
 
dvk
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:18 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:47 am

AIRPLAY,

Why don't you try to really learn something before you shoot off your mouth? I'm a physician, and I can promise you absolutely that NOT every headache gets an MRI. The physicians who order the MRI don't get reimbursed for that procedure. Only the facility performing the MRI and the radiologist who reads it get paid. If the ordering physician got a kickback for ordering the test, that would be a legal conflict of interest with potentially serious consequences. Even physicians who order the procedures they perform (e.g., cardiologists and gastroenterologists) have to provide proper diagnostic indications for any procedure, or payment for that procedure will be denied by an insurance company. It's not perfect, but there is a system of checks and balances in place, and most people who blatantly abuse the system will eventually be caught.

The vast majority of physicians do not go ape-shit ordering every imaginable test. Yes, because of the legal climate here, more tests than are absolutely necessary get ordered to protect ourselves from malpractice claims, but we're not doing it for our own enrichment. I personally work for a salary ( a good one, but far less than most business executives or the plaintiff's attorneys who would love to sue me if I missed that rare cerebral aneurysm causing a headache), and not one test I order enriches my income. In managed care settings, the only way to increase your income is to see more patients, not to order more tests or procedures.

We do have a lot of problems with the availability of medical care for all citizens, but it is not as simple as our current system. The plurality of cultures and enormous variability in socioeconomic status of Americans present unique challenges for us. I work for a county health department which provides high quality primary care services for people who are disadvantaged. The care is not free, but patients pay on a sliding scale. Most of my patients are uninsured or are Medicaid, yet I can provide them with virtually any essential medications or referrals through the structure our county has in place. There is still an extremely high level of poor compliance, even among patients who qualify for free medications! There are elements of a person's socioeconomic status that are very difficult to overcome.

Ultimately, the US DOES need to go to a universal health system. Most people who have truly studied the situation agree on this. This belief is not limited to those who are uninsured. The insurance lobby is as bad as the NRA, however, and it will take federal legislators with a lot more balls than are currently in Washington to address the issue seriously.

In the meantime, why don't you non-Americans who think you know everything and tell us how selfish and stupid we Americans are just shut the f*** up? You aren't in any position to tell us what we need to do about this issue!
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
USAirways737
Posts: 986
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:20 am

A Russian Regional Jet?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:12 am

Universal Health Care sounds like a great idea. We spend too much on healthcare than any other industrialized nation.

The problem you see, is that our government will f*** it up hard. Instead of making it simple, they'll make the bill over 100,000 pages long, adding this and that so that we all end up getting something completely different than what we had thought. That's what happens when you let the government run things. Unfortunately, I don't really see any other alternative. And that sucks.

Erik
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:23 am

At worst, you screw up and die.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:39 am

I am simply defending against your attacks of how a person "pays more and gets worse care in the US."

I wasn't addressing people singularily. I was addressing the healthcare "system". Total money in versus total results out.

Yes, because of the legal climate here, more tests than are absolutely necessary get ordered to protect ourselves from malpractice claims, but we're not doing it for our own enrichment.

Yes...thanks for verifying that healthcare under the American system results in unneccesary procedures that end up costing more.

In managed care settings, the only way to increase your income is to see more patients, not to order more tests or procedures.

Don't more tests and procedures mean more follow-up exams?

In the meantime, why don't you non-Americans who think you know everything and tell us how selfish and stupid we Americans are just shut the f*** up? You aren't in any position to tell us what we need to do about this issue!

OK. I'll promise to stop commenting on your system when Americans stop commenting and using the Canadian system in comparison in a negative light. So DVK, don't hold your breath. Neither will happen any time soon.
 
Qb001
Topic Author
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Americans Want Health Care Reform

Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:45 am

In the meantime, why don't you non-Americans who think you know everything and tell us how selfish and stupid we Americans are just shut the f*** up? You aren't in any position to tell us what we need to do about this issue!

First off, the thread starter refers to a poll conducted among AMERICANS. So, it's an AMERICAN point of view, first and foremost. I'm just a Canuck who happened to go through it and I thought it was valid information.

But, at least, you agree with the bottom line, which is to say:
Ultimately, the US DOES need to go to a universal health system.

Amen...
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: E2, ozglobal, speedygonzales and 16 guests