mNeo
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Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:51 am

I was looking over the Euro 2004 website when i found out that Israel played in the Qualifications for the tournament. How can this be when i thought that the Euro cup was for Europe ONLY. also what would have happened if Israel had won the cup??
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Klaus
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:57 am

Israel is sort of an "associated" member since they´d have nowhere to play otherwise... Same for *ahem* cultural exercises like the Eurovision Song Contest...  Wink/being sarcastic

Israel is culturally not too dissimilar from Europe, so it´s not really an issue.

It´s just one of those weird things in the world...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
prosa
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:49 am

I've always though of Israel as a European country that happens to be located in Asia.
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rjpieces
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:09 pm

Israel is physically located in Asia, although culturally it is Western. Israel plays against European teams becuase Middle Eastern nations refuse to recognize Israel and thus won't play them....Just look at the Iranian who wouldn't face an Israeli during the Olympics.
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ZKSUJ
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:07 pm

Israel is mora a part of Asia Minor (middle east) than Europe I would think.
 
Catatonic
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:52 pm

...........Same for Turkey!!
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ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:53 pm

Israel is located in Asia. It is a member of OECD, observer member of the EC and CERN and partner of the OSCE. CERN observer status will be possibly upgraded, yet Israel will never be a full member of the EC/EU.

IFA is a member of UEFA.
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jasepl
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:02 pm

Israel plays against European teams becuase Middle Eastern nations refuse to recognize Israel and thus won't play them....Just look at the Iranian who wouldn't face an Israeli during the Olympics.

That't can't possibly the only or primary reason can it? The vast majority of Asian countries aren't Arab or Muslim, and of those that are, some of them seem not have such a problem with Israel as fat is sport is concerned, at least.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:06 pm

The vast majority of Asian countries aren't Arab or Muslim, and of those that are, some of them seem not have such a problem with Israel as fat is sport is concerned, at least.

This is very much true. It is only a relatively small number of Asian countries that refuse to be engaged in any activity with Israel. Syria, Lebanon and Iran are the ones that drive that mood.
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manni
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:16 pm

Israel is not a European country, the fact that they like to associate themselfes with Europe, does not change that.
If anything, Israel is more a part of the US located in Asia  Big grin
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QIguy24
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:21 pm

Israel is the 51. State of the US  Big grin J/K

Israel is an asian country together with Russia. But I wonder why Russia plays in the European qualification and not the asian.
 
jasepl
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:24 pm

Israel is not a European country, the fact that they like to associate themselfes with Europe, does not change that.
If anything, Israel is more a part of the US located in Asia


LOL Manni! The first part of your post is just like Australia's constant claim that they're just as Asian as Burma!
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:09 pm

Israel is an asian country together with Russia

Russia is as European as it is Asian. European part of Russia is bigger than the UK , France and Germany combined.

As I said, Israel is not a European country, nor does it truly belong to Asia people-wise. It is a mix, and that should not suprise you, since it is a country of immigrants , mainly from Europe and North Africa. If you doubt that Manny, let me assure you that I am as European as you are. The fact that I don't hold EU citizenship is worthless. All I need is to sit down and write a nice letter to the Austrian embassy and fill in some forms. I don't feel the urge to do so, since I am proud to be Israeli.
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cedarjet
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:13 pm

Manni, you beat me too it - I've always though of Israel as a US state that happens to be located in Asia too.

The comparison with Turkey and Russia isn't really apt, since half of Turkey (the bit where most of the action is) actually is on the European continent (indeed the division between Europe and Asia cuts right through Istanbul in the form of the Bosphorus River); and half of Russia, including most of the population and the important cities of Moscow and Saint Petersburg, is in Europe - the division in that part of the world between Europe and Asia is the Ural Mountains.
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ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:21 pm

since half of Turkey (the bit where most of the action is) actually is on the European continent

Not true.


and half of Russia
Not true geographically, yet true in all other senses.
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solnabo
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:53 pm

Whatta nightmare to deal with A Sharon, the fat *blank* in the EU commision......
Neither Israel or Turkey belongs to EU IMO!!

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Klaus
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:58 pm

Israel in its current form couldn´t become a member anyway even if they wanted to (which they don´t) because of human rights issues.

I think that Europe can´t solve the problems for both Israel and Turkey; The whole region needs to get its stuff together at last so they can stand on their own (even with good relations to Europe, hopefully).
 
ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:23 pm

As Klaus mentioned , Israel (unlike Turkey) has no will to become a member of EU. EU and Israel are very interested in strong bilateral relations, especially economical and financial ones, and those exist to a very high degree. Future may bring more co-operation, but that's about it.
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solnabo
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:30 pm

Sorry if I sound harsh on this topic, but I really get pissed off when in Turkey the family of a 12 y/o girl was shot 86 (eightysix) times by her brother just becouse she hit a ride with a relative to her house....she dishonour her family by doing that, so she had to be killed!!! I was furius when I read it yesterday, and this is only one example of the living turkish way.

Turkey better take care of this so called "honour killings" or they can forgot a place in EU, thats for sure! Gggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

About Israel, the only buddys they got is US, simple as that! The Israeli Govt. are saying that europeans are anti-semetics, just blur it out on all of us living here! Pleeaaseeeeee........have on a olive, Ariel  Insane

If they are the "people choosen by God", in my book they sure dont act like it!! Practise what you preach...my ***!

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ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:37 pm

What's your point Micke?

About the US being Israel's only friend that's simply not true. Despite what you might think diplomatic and economical relations between Israel and the vast majority of the EU countries are excellent. Voting in the UN is something slightly different and has nothing to do with the real life.

Oh , and there's no such thing as god chosenness, since god is a human invention.
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solnabo
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:49 pm

LY7E7:

Sure, especilly after this "Berlinwall" you´re building! That gonna make Israel a true "peaceloving nation" among the UN nations  Insane

There will NEVER be peace as long Israel/Palestine refuse to reach out a hand.........period!
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avi
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:57 pm

Back to topic.

MNeo: what would have happened if Israel had won the cup??

Relax, Israel is not even close, in football, to get to the Euro games (never did it) or the world cup games (did it only in 1970, and not from the European groups), not to mention winning it, today, or in 100 years.

In other sports it’s a different story. If you check my signature you will see that an Israeli team is the European champion in basketball (the final 4 games were in Tel Aviv), another team is the ULEB cup champion (another Europe’s tournament) and a 3rd team finished 3rd in another tournament, all in 2004.
Israel, regularly, plays in the European basketball championships (and even was 2nd in 1979).

Israel also has and had many European champions in other sports (mainly in sea sports).

When it comes to sport, Israel is part of Europe although, geographically, it’s part of Asia.

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Alessandro
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:08 am

I don´t agree that Israel wouldn´t like to be member of European Union, but it´s not possible neither politically nor economically.
As far as sport goes, Israel used to play in the oceania group (Oz, NZ and so on) until the become involved in the european group.
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ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:29 am

I don´t agree that Israel wouldn´t like to be member of European Union

In such case you are unfamiliar with Israel's foreign policy doctrine. Complying to a certain EU laws can and will undermine Israel's guidelines, thus Israel could not be less interested in joining the EU. Being a premium economic partner is as far as it goes.

On a funny note : how would you define a country (EU-wise) that almost a quarter of its population (and almost a third until 2010) are EU citizens?  Smile

[Edited 2004-09-20 17:32:21]
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rjpieces
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:47 am

Israel and European Countries do have extremely close cooperation, usually behind the scenes action that isn't talked about too much for fear of pissing off the Arabs.

Oh , and there's no such thing as god chosenness, since god is a human invention

And I read that 80% of Jews in Israel are secular?  Smile

Israel will never be in the EU though. It is much more beneficial for them to maintain good relations with the EU and have amazing relations with the US.

When it comes down to it, most European governments are appeasers and are more than willing to flush Israel down the drain time and time again, with the one exception being Germany for obvious reasons.

Israel in its current form couldn´t become a member anyway even if they wanted to (which they don´t) because of human rights issues.

Palestinian territories are not part of Israel Klaus. It's a battlefield. Should Iraq count towards US human rights violations?

If anything, Israel is more a part of the US located in Asia

Israel is one of our frontlines in the war on terror, for sure.
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PPGMD
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:57 am

Last time I checked the government considered most of the Middle East technically in Europe. When I ask about the race on guberment forms, they just say put white down.
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Klaus
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Rjpieces

Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:14 am

Rjpieces: Israel and European Countries do have extremely close cooperation, usually behind the scenes action that isn't talked about too much for fear of pissing off the Arabs.

That goes both ways. European countries usually have decent relations with arab countries as well, even if different in many ways.


Rjpieces: Oh , and there's no such thing as god chosenness, since god is a human invention
And I read that 80% of Jews in Israel are secular?


Too bad the religious fanatics are ultimately in charge in many if not most of the critical decisions - even going so far as to murdering a prime minister to (successfully!) get what they wanted.


Rjpieces: When it comes down to it, most European governments are appeasers and are more than willing to flush Israel down the drain time and time again, with the one exception being Germany for obvious reasons.

a) When I´m looking towards the real world (Afghanistan, for instance), things look a little different.

b) You´re contradicting your first statement in the same post. That´s a record even by your relaxed standards. Big grin


Rjpieces: Palestinian territories are not part of Israel Klaus. It's a battlefield.

The inhabitants seem to be forced to live in your "battlefield".  Insane
A brutal military occupation with multiple human rights violations would alone exclude any hopes of EU accession, even if they tried.

A long-standing de-facto apartheid system and partial supremacy of religious institutions over civilian ones won´t help either.


Rjpieces: Should Iraq count towards US human rights violations?

With the captives tortured and killed in Abu Ghraib and elsewhere? With over ten thousand deaths as "collateral damage"? Well, if those things didn´t "count", you could just forget about human rights in any form whatsoever!  Pissed


Rjpieces: Israel is one of our frontlines in the war on terror, for sure.

It´s surely the most successful breeder of terrorism. That´s for sure. Carefully poking people with a stick again, again and again over five decades and then complaining about the reaction is somewhat disingenuous, even if that reaction is stupid and even criminal.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:57 am

Too bad the religious fanatics are ultimately in charge in many if not most of the critical decisions - even going so far as to murdering a prime minister to (successfully!) get what they wanted.

There are always fanatics Klaus.

a) When I´m looking towards the real world (Afghanistan, for instance), things look a little different.

How about the whole Middle East Klaus?

b) You´re contradicting your first statement in the same post. That´s a record even by your relaxed standards.

Please tell me how I contradicted my first statement. They have close cooperation on certain matters, but Europeans are consistantly willing to flush Israel down the toilet--Be it in public statements or in UN votes with Germany usually being an exception.

The inhabitants seem to be forced to live in your "battlefield".
A brutal military occupation with multiple human rights violations would alone exclude any hopes of EU accession, even if they tried.


Yeah, I guess the EU wouldn't know a dam thing about military.

A long-standing de-facto apartheid system and partial supremacy of religious institutions over civilian ones won´t help either.

Apartheid, that is funny. Which leftist taught you that?

With the captives tortured and killed in Abu Ghraib and elsewhere? With over ten thousand deaths as "collateral damage"? Well, if those things didn´t "count", you could just forget about human rights in any form whatsoever!

And this one takes the prize! At least Klaus uses the same standard to measure Israel and the US. So in your book, Israel and US are two of the worst human rights violators in the world? You are so full of crap Klaus. Why don't you focus your energies on improving the Arab world? I'm sure they'll love your "no nonsense bullsh*t."

It´s surely the most successful breeder of terrorism. That´s for sure. Carefully poking people with a stick again, again and again over five decades and then complaining about the reaction is somewhat disingenuous, even if that reaction is stupid and even criminal.

Typical response, but I'm surprised to hear it coming from a German. Reading that response, one would think that the creation of Israel is to blame for all the terrorism that exists today. SELLOUT. APPEASER. Typical European though.
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ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:11 am

For five decades Klaus? That's a stupid and appalling thing to say. Maybe the fierce resistance to any Jewish representation on this strip of land had something to do with it as well , huh? And while we are there, you might as well ask yourself WHY did Jews look in this direction? Maybe you can think of something. If your memory works for five decades you can go another couple of them back in time.

Not to mention the fact that someone who accidently reads your post may be sure of Israel being a Jewish version of Iran with a dash of Nazi Germany.

[Edited 2004-09-20 19:14:05]
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ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:16 am

Solnabo,

If you don't like islamic traditional family honour killings that much to oppose Turkey's accession to the EU ,you might also think why I don't want Palestinians as my "Schengen style" neighbours. I prefer them behind the wall in their own state.
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Klaus
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Rjpieces

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:19 am

Rjpieces, you are either just unwilling or incapable of dealing with actual arguments.

All we get from you are petulant emotional jabs at whoever "threatens" your delusional bubble world in which everybody not in agreement with you is automatically evil incarnate.  Insane

You simply claim that everybody was against you for no other reason than those other people being stupid or evil without ever backing it up with actual evidence. In your extremely simplified world it is entirely impossible that the "side" you´re so totally identifying with could ever have made even the slightest mistake.

I guess you´re rather at the lower end of the indicated age bracket, but you should still be able to consider the possibility that criticism of something does not indicate a death wish as you seem to believe.

Extreme exaggerations of opposing arguments, permanent wiggling out of any evidence-based argumentation and the ever-present attempts at personal attacks make you look like a lightweight way out of his depth.

Your last post is basically just poisonous fluff with too little evidentiary content to even quote, let alone rebuke.

This way, you´re going nowhere except deeper into your baseless paranoia.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:23 am

For five decades Klaus? That's a stupid and appalling thing to say. Maybe the fierce resistance to any Jewish representation on this strip of land had something to do with it as well , huh? And while we are there, you might as well ask yourself WHY did Jews look in this direction? Maybe you can think of something. If your memory works for five decades you can go another couple of them back in time.

Excellent post.

Not to mention the fact that someone who accidently reads your post may be sure of Israel being a Jewish version of Iran with a dash of Nazi Germany.

In their eyes, that is just what it is. And from many of their posts, they think the same of the United States (government).

If you don't like islamic traditional family honour killings that much to oppose Turkey's accession to the EU ,you might also think why I don't want Palestinians as my "Schengen style" neighbours.

Lol.

I prefer them behind the wall in their own state.

I just wish that wall/fence had been built years ago. It took 56 years, but Israelis have finally learned that they can not live in peace with the Arabs.
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Klaus
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Rjpieces

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:46 am

Rjpieces: Israel is one of our frontlines in the war on terror, for sure.

Klaus: It´s surely the most successful breeder of terrorism. That´s for sure. Carefully poking people with a stick again, again and again over five decades and then complaining about the reaction is somewhat disingenuous, even if that reaction is stupid and even criminal.

LY7E7: For five decades Klaus?

A little more than that, but basically, yes.

LY7E7: That's a stupid and appalling thing to say.

Sorry if you don´t want to look at it. But it´s still there. I agree about "stupid" and "appalling", but I´d adress that at the occupation policy.

LY7E7: Maybe the fierce resistance to any Jewish representation on this strip of land had something to do with it as well , huh?

Sure; Occupation and expulsion usually create resistance. And not always of the morally defensible kind, obviously.

LY7E7: And while we are there, you might as well ask yourself WHY did Jews look in this direction? Maybe you can think of something. If your memory works for five decades you can go another couple of them back in time.

I´m acutely aware of the whys and I understand it very well in most respects. It just looks as if the how was a major screwup. There have been still worse in history, of course, and I still think improvement (and even a resolution) is possible, but simply denying the existence of the problem won´t help anybody.

LY7E7: Not to mention the fact that someone who accidently reads your post may be sure of Israel being a Jewish version of Iran with a dash of Nazi Germany.

The differences in both cases are too large to allow that comparison; But again, religious fundamentalism and its politically active manifestations are a problem in Israel, and the non-jewish israelis and the non-israeli palestinians do face discrimination.

I would refuse to make the comparison you´ve proposed, but again: Claiming that a problem wouldn´t exist does not make it go away!

Constructive solutions are required, even if somewhat uncomfortable or embarrassing for either side at first.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:53 am

Didnt expect a Einstein to answer about the wall / schengen / palestinian from a
israeli, but this is redicilus.

Palestine is pushed into a corner and they cant do shit about it! I dont accept Hamas and suisidebombers, but I dont think a wall gonna keep them away from blowing up themselfs in Israel, and Palestine is desperate and Sharon dont give any hope for a better life, he would love to see them pushed out the Med.

My 0,02

Micke
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ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:59 am

Klaus , your constructive solution ideas sound amazinlgy close to Horus , BA, etc. I.e. Jewish state is a historic mistake. Consequently I have no further intention to discuss anything with you.
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solnabo
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:08 am

Ariel Sharon is wanted by Belgium Govt. for the massmurders in Lebanon in the 80´s!!

What does that say about the primeminister of Israel?

Plus the p-minister that was shot down at a rally, killed UN workers ´cuz they where "too arab friendly" in the 60´s

Micke/SE
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ly7e7
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:12 am

Solnabo , at least get your facts straight. Sharon is NOT wanted by the Belgian gmnt.
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Klaus
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LY7E7

Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:13 am

LY7E7: Klaus , your constructive solution ideas sound amazinlgy close to Horus , BA, etc. I.e. Jewish state is a historic mistake. Consequently I have no further intention to discuss anything with you.

Nonsense!  Insane

I see the way Israel has been created and expanded as a major screwup in many aspects. But the nonsense about a "historical error that must be 'corrected'" by essentially destroying Israel is unacceptable.

One screwup can´t be "compensated" by a crime.

You may not remember (but can easily verify) that my actual proposals for a resolution are in fact much more constructive than that.
 
Sabena332
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RE: Israel Part Of Europe?

Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:14 am

This thread has gone way off-topic and has nothing to do anymore with the original question in the thread starter, so it is archived.

Patrick
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