mdsh00
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Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:21 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3678736.stm

So it seems that India, Japan, Germany and Brazil are contending for permanent UN Sec Council seats. Which of these nations' bids do you agree/disagree with? Is there a country that you would like to see on permanent status on the Security Council and why?

I personally think that India and Germany are deserving of seats, if not all four bidders.

[Edited 2004-09-22 19:22:28]
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
TWFirst
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:45 am

I think that all are deserving. However, having 3 Western European countries on the council seems a bit much... I know there's been talk of perhaps having one combined EU seat.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:46 am

Personally I think it's time to reform the Security Council system altogether and that permanent seats should be apportioned continentally, with each continent receving one permanet seat and one seat rotating through the region on a 2 year term. My suggestions for the new Permanent seats:

North America - United States
South America - Brazil
Europe - Hard to choose this one. My preference would be towards the UK, however
Africa - South Africa
Asia - Another hard choice between the PRC and Japan. I'd go with Japan, though.
Oceania - Australia

Or, alternatively, keep the current setup and just add 6 new permanent seats, one for each inhabited continent, thus having a 21-member council. In that case, I'd go with:

North America - Canada
South America - Brazil
Europe - Germany
Africa - South Africa
Asia - Japan
Oceania - Australia.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
jasepl
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:51 am

India certainly don't deserve permanent membership yet. We need to be far more involved in world affairs and make a much greater contribution (in matters other than immigration and outsourcing) before we're even considered.
 
jaysit
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:07 am

A country with a more neutral stance deserves to be on the security council. Japan, Germany, Canada, Brazil come to mind.

India and Pakistan are involved in a belligerent war which escalates from petty insults to arms exchange; China is a global military headache. Both China and India are too self-absorbed to be members of the security council, at this juncture. Let both countries feed, clothe, and educate all their citizens first before they get to jabber on about global security.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:08 am

Frankly, I don't know why Germany should have a permanent seat.

Nukes (the original reason to introduce the Security Council together with the right to veto decisions): Neither do we have nukes nor do we want any.

Political weight? The frequent exercise of the right to veto (major players here are the USSR/Russia as well as the USA) is the main reason for why the UN needs more teeth. More permanent seats won't help.
I support the right to arm bears
 
ZS-SAZ
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:42 am

I would agree with Garnetpalmetto. The security council should be more representative, and include a wide spectrum of nations. I do think, though, that the nations chosen for the security council should have a hefty amount of political weight in their respective regions.
 
jasepl
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:48 am

India and Pakistan are involved in a belligerent war which escalates from petty insults to arms exchange; China is a global military headache. Both China and India are too self-absorbed to be members of the security council, at this juncture. Let both countries feed, clothe, and educate all their citizens first before they get to jabber on about global security.

I agree China don't really deserve to be on the Council, but there's nothing that can be done now, is there? Can you imagine what would happen if it were suggested that China vacate their seat? Mao would probably throw such a hissy fit from wherever he might be, we'd feel it for years to come!

A balanced grouping might consist of China, America, France, Germany, Brazil, Japan, Russia, Turkey (or some other moderate "Muslim" country), an African country. A tenth place, just to round it out, could be given to a country selected by all of the others.

I'm not sure which African country to put down here. Africa desparately needs representation and South Africa just seem to be too convenient and obvious a chioce.
Australia and India aren't near as important or influential as they like to think. And Britain can share a seat with America, since they play Simon Says anyway.

Nukes (the original reason to introduce the Security Council together with the right to veto decisions): Neither do we have nukes nor do we want any.

NoUFO, if nukes were still considered a valid reason to be given a place at the table, can you imagine the wonderful guest list: Crazy Korea, Iran, Israel, Pakistan...
More permanemt seats might help if the veto were abolished. They could consider a simple or two-thirds majority or something on those lines.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:54 am

Today´s permanent members of the security council represent the winning powers of WW2 AND also the major colonial powers of the early post WW2 period, with the exception of China. IMO China has to stay, because it represents 1/5 of the world population. Under the same token India should be a member as well.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
mdsh00
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:56 am

Garnetpalmetto,

I like that idea a lot


Can you imagine what would happen if it were suggested that China vacate their seat?

I was under the impression that India was offered a seat in the council around when it was formed. But Nehru being the flower-sniffing peace advocate he was, allowed China to take it.

Is this true or not?
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
NoUFO
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:58 am

NoUFO, if nukes were still considered a valid reason to be given a place at the table, can you imagine the wonderful guest list: Crazy Korea, Iran, Israel, Pakistan...

Don't get me wrong. I didn't say I want permanent seats for governments that have their hands on nukes. *shudder*
I support the right to arm bears
 
ly7e7
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:01 am

Should be kept as it is, possibly adding only India, as an emerging world power. Another option is having a single EU representative instead of UK and France.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
jasepl
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:05 am

Another option is having a single EU representative instead of UK and France.

LY7E7, I'd get you better odds for Sharon & Arafat getting it on than those two chacking up together!
 
FLVILLA
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:22 am

I see some people have not included the UK on there UN wishlist, why????

Were not just representing ourselves, were are the only commonwealth country up there and we have a duty to ensure there is some sought of represnetation for it on the Top-level.
I hope in life i can work to live, not live to work
 
ly7e7
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:25 am

I'd get you better odds for Sharon & Arafat getting it on than those two chacking up together!

I have to disagree  Smile.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:26 am

Should be kept as it is, possibly adding only India, as an emerging world power. Another option is having a single EU representative instead of UK and France.

Not practical. If a resolution is changed to be considered an "important question" it would require a 2/3rd vote to pass. 2/3rds of 16 would raise the question of how many votes were actually needed - 10 or 11? Same goes with 2/3rds of 14.

As for India initially being offered a permanent seat on the Security, in the 8 years I've studied the UN, it's the first I heard about it. The Permanent 5 seats went to the nations who contributed "the most" to the Allied cause in World War II and were the big victors (I put "the most" in quotations because IMNSHO, Canada did a hell of a lot more than France (the nation-state, not the people. I'm partially French myself and had relatives who served in both the Free French Forces and the resistence. I'm well aware of the important contributions made by both groups to the war effort. The actual nation-state, however, is another story)).
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
slider
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:27 am

And the purpose of the UN Security Council would be?
 
david b.
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:37 am

And the purpose of the UN Security Council would be?


To make sure countries do not start meaningless wars and create a country of chaos......

How about this:

North America: USA
South America: Brazil
EU: 2 reps from various EU entities
Africa: South Africa and Kenya
Asia: Japan or PRC

[Edited 2004-09-22 21:38:07]
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:46 am

Slider, the purposes of the UNSC are to:
-Recommend expulsion of nations from the UN
-Recommend changes to the UN Charter to the General Assembly
-Have the ability to take up matters of international humanitarian importance almost immediately due to the fact that their agenda is ad hoc
-Also is the only UN organ that can order a nation to do something. Whereas resolutions from other UN Bodies are merely recommendations, Security Council resolutions have to be followed through.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:49 am

Not practical.
How come? My suggestion leaves the number of members untouched.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Stretch 8
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:50 am

Brazil? You all must be nuts!

I say just the United States, and members of the "coalition of the willing." Forget about the tired "Old Europe" states. Yes to new pals of the USA Poland, Spain, etc. But they don't get to make any decisions!
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:54 am

Should be kept as it is, possibly adding only India, as an emerging world power. Another option is having a single EU representative instead of UK and France.

Adding only India=adding one new seat

Combing France and the UK=subtracting one seat.

This is keeping the current set-up...how? Unless I read it wrong and you want both suggestions to work in concert.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Christa
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:55 am

Two countries from every largely inhabited continent of the world.. I think that's what would be best..prefably the two countries with most economic and political power..whilst for Australasia.. only one country would have a seat and the spare seat that would be left over would be given to another economic, political power. A country with power, but not as much as the others, for example - Singapore, Spain, Argentina, Mexico etc.. Every 4 years this seat would be passed on to another country..

They also need to represent two sides of the people, after all, people in different parts of the same continent have different views..

Europe - UK & Germany
North America - USA & Canada
South America - Brazil & Chile
Africa - South Africa & Egypt
Asia - Japan & China
Australasia - Australia & another country, e.g - Mexico

Regards,

Christa
Croeso i Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd - Welcome to Cardiff International Airport
 
bennett123
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:55 am

FLvilla

I think most people assumed that we are talking about additional Permanent members.
 
N6376M
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:00 am

Europe should elect one representative from the EU.
 
Christa
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:02 am

Maybe we could always leave the USA out  Big grin

Regards,

Christa
Croeso i Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd - Welcome to Cardiff International Airport
 
N6376M
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:05 am

Christa,

That's fine, but suddenly more than 20% of your budget disappears.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:07 am

Christa, seeing that the US provides most of the funds for the UN, as well as most of the troops, and oh yeah, a gorgeous building on the East River, feel free to kick us out of your socialist wonderland.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Christa
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:08 am

Didn't you notice my  Big grin

Hell..

I love the USA..

Haven't you seen my posts on here?

You should know im very pro collaboration between USA and UK!

Regards,

Christa
Croeso i Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd - Welcome to Cardiff International Airport
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:09 am

Well, were not the US the biggest debtors to the UN anyway? I think there was some problem about the US government holding back it´s payments until some issues like birth control and some other topics of US interests were changed in favour of the US government....

The UN can´t loose money it didn´t receive anyway...

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:10 am

Europe should elect one representative from the EU.

Not likely to happen. It would take a change of the Charter to state that in the Security Council, the EU is one seat whereas in the rest of the UN (General Assembly and ECOSOC), Europe would be broken back down into its constituent nation-states. That kind of weird exception hasn't occurred for years (well aside from the period of time when the UN wasn't quite sure who got to represent Afghanistan), if ever.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:10 am

Australasia - Australia & another country, e.g - Mexico

Why would Mexico be included? It's a North American nation. Maybe New Zealand with Australia.

[Edited 2004-09-22 22:13:05]
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
tbar220
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:13 am

I only see one member country who should be added, and that is Japan.

Japan is one of the world leaders in humanitarian aid and is second in funding to the UN only to the USA. They have a highly educated population, and an excellent medical system. They are an economic superpower, but as a non-nuclear power would add another view point to the security council. They are giving humanitarian assistance to help solve the mess in Iraq right now, but otherwise are really not twisted up in a mess of foreign policy. With one of the best trained and highly advanced armies in the world, I think Japan would be the best addition to the security council.
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N6376M
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:16 am

Jan,

My understanding is that at one point the US was the biggest debtor put most (if not all) of that debt has been paid. Even without the debt, the US contributes something like 20% of the UN's cash operating budget.

So if you want us out, I would bet that there wouldn't be a big fight from most Americans. NY in particular would LOVE to get its hands on some East River real estate and overdue parking ticket money.

Finally, why shouldn't the EU just have one seat on the SC? IMO this is just one more example about how European unity is an oxymoron. When its in their best interest then the EU is the best thing since sliced bread. But if it requires any sort of reductions in right/privileges, then there needs to be an exception. As I've previously said, the EU should have 1 vote on the UNSC, 1 olympic team, 1 team in world cup, etc . . .
 
jasepl
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:17 am

I was under the impression that India was offered a seat in the council around when it was formed. But Nehru being the flower-sniffing peace advocate he was, allowed China to take it.
Is this true or not?


Sorry Md, haven't a clue. But I would doubt that were ever the case.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:20 am

Sorry Md, haven't a clue. But I would doubt that were ever the case.

Oh ok. Well it was just something that my friends' father told me. Could be an urban legend.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
Christa
Posts: 1215
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:37 pm

RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:23 am

Why would Mexico be included? It's a North American nation. Maybe New Zealand with Australia.

As Australia would represent New Zealand's views and beliefs..

I was just using Mexico as an example, It could even be New Zealand or Turkey..

Regards,

Christa
Croeso i Faes Awyr Rhyngwladol Caerdydd - Welcome to Cardiff International Airport
 
aloges
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:40 am

Here's some info about the EU at the UN:

http://www.europa-eu-un.org/articles/en/article_1001_en.htm

I haven't read all of it, so don't quote me on it. And for the record, I'm in favour of one single EU seat in the UNSC, depite and partly because of all the headaches it would cause.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:49 am

Europe should elect one representative from the EU.

Why?

This is the United Nations, not United Continents. And if you're dreaming about a EU seat at the UN (for whatever bizzare reason) you can officially stop dreaming now.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
N6376M
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:56 am

Why should the EU seek to speak with one voice on all sorts of international matters but not when it doesn't suit them. Hypocrisy exposed.
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:01 am

Why should the EU seek to speak with one voice on all sorts of international matters but not when it doesn't suit them. Hypocrisy exposed.

The EU does not speak with one voice on international matters, it tries to and wants to but it's not the way you think it is. The why the new EU constitution is so controversial, it gives the EU legal status as a nation state. It also gives the EU power to sign international treaties on behalf of member states. Currently the EU is a collection of sovereign nation states, nothing less and nothing more.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
iakobos
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:09 am

Why not put some conditions to the access to the UNSC ?
Say,
20 years of clean foreign relations records
no record of discrimination
signatory and effective compliance with all main international treaties
in the first quarter of the Human Development Index list
in the first quarter in Human Rights records
clean accounts at the UN

how many would it leave, and WHICH would have a seat ?


 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:02 am

20 years of clean foreign relations records
no record of discrimination
signatory and effective compliance with all main international treaties
in the first quarter of the Human Development Index list
in the first quarter in Human Rights records
clean accounts at the UN


I doubt there'd be a Security Council if your pie-in-the-sky requirements were imposed.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
b757300
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:37 am

If we're talking permanent membership, United States, Great Britain, Japan, Australia, Italy, and Poland. They've shown they have the anatomy needed to make the tough but necessary decisions.

Personally, I'd rather the U.S. get out of the U.N. and watch it implode like the League of Nations did.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Arrow
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:51 am

"20 years of clean foreign relations records
no record of discrimination
signatory and effective compliance with all main international treaties
in the first quarter of the Human Development Index list
in the first quarter in Human Rights records
clean accounts at the UN."


The first three of those would certainly knock the US out of the running, and probably most other major nations. None of them are unblemished on that score.

The time has come to give the major population centres (e.g. India) more clout as permanent members.


[Edited 2004-09-23 01:20:44]
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:27 am

Personally, I'd rather the U.S. get out of the U.N. and watch it implode like the League of Nations did.

And personally I'd rather see you stop posting your drivel here altogether. Oh well, if wishes were horses....
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:08 am

The time has come to give the major population centres (e.g. India) more clout as permanent members.

As an Indian, I disagree completely. That's a recipe for solving a problem with another - the UNSC should not be a half baked global affirmative action group. Lets get real here. The UNSC isn't about responsible power. Its a WW2 old boys club - two big military powers, two former imperial powers and an east Asian basketcase that lost severals millions of its people to another rampaging east Asian imperial power. There are several WW2 contributors who didn't make it in - Canada, ANZAC and India being the main cases.

I also disagree that India should 'wait until it solves its problems before being let in'. Lets fast forward 10 years and look at the picture. China and India will very likely be bigger economic and military powers than UK, France, Germany and Russia, behind only the US (and economically, Japan as well). Two decades on, both will have passed Japan economically, and will be closing in on the US.

Now, exactly how will the UNSC be relevant around then ? Its own relevance will lie in co-opting the new powers. If anything, India will strengthen its own cause by ignoring the UNGA/UNSC's resolutions based on its own self interest, as it has always done. We ought to concentrate on getting rich and strong. Some day the UNSC's own continuing relevance will be tied, in part, to having us among them. Then they'll come ask us to join. Until then I strongly feel India ought not to clamour after it. Unfortunately we're doing it, and that just reduces our own bargaining power.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:08 pm

Good to see that no one even bothers to reply to rjpieces' flamebait anymore but just for the record I'll put him straight,

"seeing that the US provides most of the funds for the UN,"

UN's largest deadbeat you mean.

" as well as most of the troops "

Really ? Just how many troops does the US have with the UN, do you actually know, only about 400 in fact. That's less than Pakistan, Nigeria, Fiji, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden ... to name just a few.

" and oh yeah, a gorgeous building on the East River "

You don't give it for free you know (well clearly you don't know) members have to pay rent just like everyone else. Just say the word and the cities that would love to host the UNGA would form up PDQ.

" feel free to kick us out of your socialist wonderland "

Feel free to spout on endlessly about things you know nothing about.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Who Would You Want On The UN Security Council

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:27 pm

and oh yeah, a gorgeous building on the East River

Dude, have you ever been in the UN itself? The place is in dire need of refurbishment. The UN Plaza buildings where most of the missions are aren't too bad, but the UN Complex itself? Don't let the brief shots they show you on TV of that beautiful dais fool you. The building is firmly stuck in the '50s.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.

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