jutes85
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Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:32 am

One man's opinion on current Canadian / American relations. This is mainly against the Liberal government in Canada, which has always has sour relations with the US.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040919-101728-2815r.htm

Preview:

It takes two to initiate and carry on a cold war. In North America, there is a rather unusual cold war under way, unusual because there is only one antagonist, Canada. Or rather I should say the single antagonist is Canada's Liberal Party government. The Liberal Party cold war began in 1968 when the ultra-left Pierre Elliot Trudeau became prime minister. Trudeau openly admired Fidel Castro. As between the U.S. and the Soviet Union he was "neutral" against the U.S. Trudeau's foreign policy was fairly simple. Anything the United States was for, Canada was against.

Far more startling is today's news: Al-Jazeera, the anti-Semitic, pro-terrorist Arabic-language news network, has been approved by special dispensation of a Canadian government agency for distribution in Canada, while Fox News channel and the Italian state channel RAI have been barred, according to Daniel Pipes. (Statistical note: there are, 470,000 Italian-speaking Canadians compared with 200,000 Arab-speaking Canadians.)

Prime Minister Martin's antipathy toward America reminds me of George Orwell's 1949 commentary: "To be anti-American nowadays is to shout with the mob. Of course, it is only a minor mob but it is a vocal one." A second rule Orwell described as the anti-American operational code is "when the United States can be insulted, it must be insulted." Carolyn Parrish and her fellow Liberals have overfilled Orwell's ironic prescription.


------------------------------------------------------------

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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Sabena332
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:37 am

The Liberal Party cold war began in 1968 when the ultra-left Pierre Elliot Trudeau became prime minister.

I was always wondering who Pierre Elliot Trudeau is/was because YUL airport is named after him, now I know it after I read this post  Smile.

Sorry for getting off-topic Embarrassment.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
L-188
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:43 am

Canada did seem to worry a lot about lack on US influence in 2000 when GW was elected, due to his strong ties with Mexico from his Texas governer days.

Once can't help but wonder if a little of that paranoia is still floating around.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LH423
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:46 am

Your first mistake was reading the Washington Times. And they say the left controls the media!

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Arrow
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:09 am

You can paint any picture you want if you look at only one side of an issue.

There's no question the Chretien Liberals thumbed their noses at the US under the Bush Administration, but Bush's "you're either with us or agin us" mentality on Iraq/terrorism was like waving a red flag in front of a bull's face.
Still, there's no excuse for Chretien behaving in the same juvenile manner, he should have known better.

But remember that this is a two-way street. On trade issues, the US treats Canada like s**t, slapping completely unjustified tariffs on lumber and keeping the border closed to beef on the strength of one mad cow case that was dealt with more than a year ago.

Getting rid of the US' baseless trade protectionism would go a long way towards restoring some of the warm and fuzzies that used to permeate US Canada relations. It would also help if US politicians stopped repeating the fiction that the 9/11 hijackers entered the US through Canada (not one of them did), and blaming US security problems on our immigration and refugee policies.

Not to worry, though. This will all pass and we can be friends again. Four more years of Bush might be a challenge, though.


Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:23 am

I love the description of Al Jazeera as "anti-Semitic, pro-terrorist". Presumably written by someone who has never watched it. Hilarious!!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
jutes85
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:25 am

Four more years of Bush might be a challenge, though.


Bush is not the problem, its our government that needs changing.
nothing
 
airplay
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:52 am

Chretien was an idiot that had alot of trouble with public speaking. He was never able to get his points across to English Canada effectively. We finally got rid of him and are now recovering. About the only thing he did right while in office was not to bend to George Bush (another idiot) and his insane crusade in Iraq.

We got rid of our idiot. I hope the US does the same in November and US-Canada relations return to normal.

Arrow, your post is spot on with respect to US-Canada trade. The NAFTA should be nullified.

In my opinion, Trudeau wasn't as evil as some portray him. He did quite well when you consider the era, or compare him to spectacular failures like Brian Mulroney. He wasn't afraid tell it like it was. I actually admire him for holding to his principles even with threats from various US presidents that tried to intimidate them. A famous Trudeau quote is "I've been called worse things by better people."after hearing himself referred to by Nixon on the tapes as 'that asshole Trudeau.'

And then theres the famous incident between LBJ and Liberal PM Lester Perason at Camp David where LBJ grabbed Pearson's by the lapels and said "You pissed on my rug."

There are several more "snubs" by US presidents. Check this site. Its quite entertaining:

http://www.king.igs.net/~rogersk/usa.htm

I believe that Paul Martin would alot more direct regarding Canada's view of US foreign policy if he had a majority government. Right now he needs to remain somewhat moderate to weather his term to the next election.

To quote another famous Canadian Robert Thompson, "Americans are our best friends whether we like it or not…"

So "cold shoulder" or just excercising our right to have an opinion and a corresponding stand on policy? Tell your president to stop doing stupid stuff and you may find more support from Canada, which is a true "beacon of peace" in the world.

Canada did seem to worry a lot about lack on US influence in 2000 when GW was elected, due to his strong ties with Mexico from his Texas governer days.

I don't understand this comment L-188. Could you elaborate?
 
jutes85
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:59 am

I love the description of Al Jazeera as "anti-Semitic, pro-terrorist". Presumably written by someone who has never watched it. Hilarious!!

Anti-Semitic: Quote:"[Jews are] the descendants of apes and pigs [who] will not be deterred unless there is a true Holocaust that will exterminate all of them at once." Do you think that a newscast like CNN or BBC would allow a person with those views to speak publically on National TV?
nothing
 
L-188
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:01 am

We finally got rid of him and are now recovering

You got rid of Diffenbaker 40 years ago.

And only now are things, "Recovering?"
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:00 am

Um....I thought it was clear that I was referring to Chretien L-188. But I'm no big fan of Diefenbaker either.

Dief's reign was just another brief deviation to the right that firmly established the Liberal party for several years afterward as the lesser of two evils.

Canada, and Canadians don't seem to prosper under right wing rule, at least not in terms that Canadians generally feel quite passionate about.
 
L-188
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:03 am

No Chretien the cretian had his own issues also.

Canada, and Canadians don't seem to prosper under right wing rule, at least not in terms that Canadians generally feel quite passionate about.

Partially true, I would say that would be the perception North of Seattle and east of Manitoba. And illustrates the tranny of the majority that is built into a palimentary system that keeps the federal government from addressing issues important to the prarrie provinces.

[Edited 2004-09-23 03:05:19]
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
airplay
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:53 am

Well...personally I don't think the federal government ignores the west. A great deal of effort that is proportional to the population is invested in the west. Unfortunately, the resolution from Ottawa is often not hard-line or right-wing enough for the extremist west and Albertans in particular feel they are always being short-changed because they can't accept that thier relatively small population will have proportional representation at the federal level.

They are always screaming to be represented at levels similar to Quebec and Ontario when they they represent a mere (roughly) less than 1/10 of the population versus Ontario and Qubec's more than 1/3 and 1/4 of the population of Canada respectively.

They are lucky to be living on top of a huge oil patch and enjoy a great deal of prosperity but they are often resistant to sharing the prosperity with other Canadians even though the development of the entire oil patch was subsidised by other provinces through taxes. Its payback time and Albertans don't seem to be stepping up.

I only hope they remember this in the future when fossil fuels fall out of favour...

 
csavel
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:18 pm

I want some fact checking here. I want quotes. I want proof. Just cause this guy's rant says so doesn't make it true, especially since it is the reverend Sun Myung Moon's Washington Times, the CBSnews of the right.

I mean Trudeau an open admirer of Castro? Why? just because he didn't break relations or forbid his supposedly "free" citizens to travel to Cuba if they want to or to smoke a f*in Cohiba if they want to? Yeah I know Castro is a tyrant, so were the apparatchiks in Moscow but I could go there to visit if I wanted to. Never stopped the US to be best buddies with Pinochet. Castro being a tyrant has no bearing on the embargo. Whorish politicians cynically trying to pick up the Cuban vote in Florida does. Both the left and right are guilty on this. The US embargo is Castro's best friend. The longer the US keeps it, the longer Cubans will be slaves. Thankfully even conservatives are waking up to the idea of freedom to travel to Cuba. Forty years of failed pandering to the Cuban exile community in Miami is enough!!!

Neutral in the Cold War? Sez who?
Did Canada leave NORAD, close the DEW line? Oh, they didn't get involved in Vietnam. That makes Trudeau a ComSymp for sure.

Trudeau a lefty? Since I'm not Canadian, I don't know. I do remember he sent the army into Montreal and declared martial law when the FLQ kidnapped and killed a politician. Doesn't sound like a girly-man to me.

Chretien an idiot? Well I don't know enough to say, he seems to be the most drab, colorless, native speaker of French I'd ever seen. Sort of the anti-Trudeau. But, I simply can't believe, as said in this article that "while the rest of the democratic world expressed its sympathy in various ways on September 11, 2001, Mr. Chretien failed to offer a genuine, heartfelt word of solace to the American people in their hour of grief." I seem to remember the citizens of Halifax, Gander an St. John's went out of their way to help stranded American airline passengers when all the planes were grounded. I remember how Canadian diplomats smuggled out 6 Americans during the hostage crisis with Iran in '79. Wasn't lefty Trudeau PM then? Can any Canadians in this thread confirm the Chretien story? Maybe he began his pot smoking a bit early. He just had "les munchies."

Yvon Charbonneau - have no idea who he is so I have no idea if he is anti-Semitic or what. I'll try to research that on the Internet.

He's on stronger ground with Carolyn "I have the widest rear end in Ontario" Parrish, the woman politician who got into hot water for insulting Americans. She is an idiot and a knee-jerk anti American fool. She seems to represent the attitude that this writer was talking about. She insulted me, and called me an idiot just because I'm from the United States - and she hasn't even met me. And I probably hate Bush more than her. No different than saying those damned are such bastards. It's bigoted no matter how you slice it. But having been in her home town of Missisauga a month ago, I could understand why she sounds so angry. Think Gary Indiana with a bit of the New Jersey Turnpike on a bad day. God what a most un-Canadian shit-hole.

PS, Jutes85, Arrow, Airplay, hope you're not from there, I'm sure if you are your neighborhoods are lovely places.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
Matt D
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:34 pm

Maybe if we legalize pot, gay marriage, outlaw guns, religion, and socialize health care, they will be our friends again.  Insane
 
Falcon84
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:35 pm

One simply has to look at the source-the Washington Post, just slightly left, perhaps, of FOX News Network.

End of discussion.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:26 pm

Maybe this is too much of a dowm play, but this is how I see it. I think some of the most beautiful women ever have come from Canada, and they've got great beer & strip clubs. What else could a person want? As far as the politcal stuff goes, who cares!?!?! All I got is one sorry little vote & the hope the electric agrees with me.
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
Arrow
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:38 pm

Hey Csavel

You've got a pretty good grasp of modern Canadian history. Congrats. But don't be mean to Mississauga, I've got relatives there. It's no worse than any other Toronto suburb. Carolyn Parrish is an idiot, and she says something to confirm that about every six months. Keep in mind that her anti-American rants don't come close to Pat Buchanan's anti-Canadian rants (Soviet Canuckistan -- great line!).

We're still friends -- we just quarrel from time to time.

And don't worry about Chretien -- he didn't inhale. Pierre did.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:48 pm

Nothing more frustrating than giving someone the cold shoulder and that person not even noticing.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
airplay
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:38 am

YYZ717,

You make the ridiculous conclusion that because I live in Manitoba I somehow represent the province and support all things Manitoba.

Why can't you concentrate on the topic? Why do you feel the need to deflect attention from the facts by wrongfully associating my opinions with my geocraphical location? It makes no sense is just a thinly veiled personal attack.

YYZ717, it may be hard for you, but concentrate on the topic and debate it on its properties. Not the geographical origins.

By the way, your overly simplistic assessment of any single province's contributions are very misleading and quite insulting to ANY Canadian.
 
travelin man
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:44 am

Canada's cold shoulder to the US? I guess it's a good thing most Americans won't even notice. Seriously, if you asked 100 Americans, 99 of them would probably either say we like Canadians, or don't know where Canada is.
 
Qb001
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:02 am

Congrats to Csavel. Great questions, that absolutely point in the right direction. Someone who writes that Trudeau was extreme-left is a total moron. That's enough to discredit the entire article to me.

On social values, it is true that Canada and the US are drifting apart though (unfortunately). Actually, it is the US that is drifting apart, on its dangerous conservative path, that will probably lead to some major social chaos - if not worst. Socially and economically, Canada is pretty much in line with the rest of the Western world - except we are one of the few country that has its national government's budget balanced.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Goose
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:12 am

Canada, and Canadians don't seem to prosper under right wing rule, at least not in terms that Canadians generally feel quite passionate about.

Alberta has not had a left-of-centre government for over 75 years.

And it's also the most propserous province, head-and-shoulders above anyone, including Ontario - at least on a per-capita basis. In fact, if it wasn't for a re-adjusting of the redistribution payments scheme in the 80s and 90s, Alberta would now be the only contributing province.

Why do you think migrate come to Alberta from all over Canada, like rats leaving a sinking ship? More often than not, it's because Alberta has jobs and lower taxes. It's long been one of the fastest-growing economies in the country, and is enjoying booming housing markets all over, and has been for decades....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
airplay
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:18 am

Alberta sits on top of a huge oil patch. Prosperity in Alberta is more luck than policy. I don't think many would argue that if were not for oil, Alberta would be much less prosperous.

I'm not putting down Alberta. Just telling it like it is.

As the popularity of fossil fuels wanes over the next century, perhaps the huge hydro-electric resources in other provinces will supercede the oil patch prosperity.
 
Goose
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:37 am

No doubt that much of Alberta's wealth was built upon the oil patch. However, in recent years, more and more diversification in Alberta's economy - often developed with money earned from the petroleum and petrochemical industry - has lead to a far more stable economy, which will continue to grow and grow away from the dependance on oil. There's even a few Hydrogen Fuel developers opening up shop here, and the Alberta Government has pushed pretty hard for the development of sustainable industries to carry Alberta's growth forward, past the decline of oil.

But, in contrast, Saskatchewan sits on top of some rather large oil & gas deposits as well, many of which lie untapped - and will probably continue to lie untapped. The reason why is that the people of Saskatchewan switch to an NDP government every few years, and that doesn't seem to help attract developers.

Same thing with BC; large forest reserves, oil & gas, minerals.... tourism.... yet they often switch to a left-leaning government every few years. It often has a direct and detrimental effect on the local economy.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:42 am

But, in contrast, Saskatchewan sits on top of some rather large oil & gas deposits as well, many of which lie untapped - and will probably continue to lie untapped. The reason why is that the people of Saskatchewan switch to an NDP government every few years, and that doesn't seem to help attract developers.

Exactly. AB has been well managed fiscally for 2 decades now. It has a diversified economy as a result of govt policy.

Meanwhile hard left socialist govts in SK and BC have impoverished those provinces by wasting tax dollars and creating a culture of dependency.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L-188
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:04 am

And I note that there is a separatist movement in Alberta too, just like in Quebec.

Issues are a bit different, being economically raped by Ottawa, gun rights.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Goose
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:17 am

And I note that there is a separatist movement in Alberta too, just like in Quebec.

Issues are a bit different, being economically raped by Ottawa, gun rights.


The Seperation Party of Alberta isn't nearly as prevelant in Alberta as the Parti Quebecois is in Quebec. They're regarded as a fringe party by a lot of folks here, but they're not really organized enough to garner that much support in the upcoming provincial elections.

Out of the issues the SPA puts forth, though, getting economically pillaged by Ottawa and consistant taxation without representation are the primary issues.

The Progressive Conservatives still maintain a pretty firm hold on the Legislature. The SPA isn't a threat to them, really - when the Conservatives are voted out after governing Alberta for 30-some years.... which is bound to happen sooner or later.... it'll doubtless be replaced by another conservative-leaning party, like the Alberta Alliance or the Alberta Party.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
IHadAPheo
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RE: Canada's Cold Shoulder To The US

Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:41 am

Sorry to all who have posted many fine postsi n this thread, but the thread itself has drifted far off topic and in order to avoid it's deletion I have locked it.

This way all the opinions are intact and there is no loss of some fine debate of issues.

IHAP
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