BN747
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The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:06 am

And it's on...

Dick comes out swinging...

Hmmm that doesn't sound quite right...


Anyway, let's see where it goes... and who wins..


BN747
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:31 am

Edwards had better pull off the gloves.. Cheney certainly has round 1 in the bag (1st) 30 mins...


BN747
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:05 am

Wooo okay.. let's change thsi to the BN747 VP thread..

Round 2 goes to Edwards.. he zapped Cheney pretty good with Hallibuton and Cheney was clearly miffed about it... and couldn't say much.

BN747
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:24 am

I only caught a few minutes of it in the truck when I left campus for dinner.

But in those few minutes I did notice that twice Edwards used time for a question to address the one that they had just discussed.

Why isn't the moderator doing her job???
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:26 am

I think its been pretty even so far. What I want to know is, where did they drag this woman from who's asking the questions? These are the worst questions I've ever seen in a debate. It seems like she drew up a ton of questions that she wants answered, rather than the American people. Horrible job I think on her part.

I think it was pretty even though.
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:28 am

I agree she is a horrible moderator.

Doesn't she do some newshow on PBS?
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BN747
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:33 am

Yep. She's on PBS with Jim Lehrer.. I agree.. the questions do suck. So does the format. They shoulda been standing.

This debate changed no one or nothing. Edwards held his own with the Savvy Prince of Darkness. But it was basically a draw, though Cheney was blowing smoke is most professional way possible...and unfortunately, some people (loyal hardcore) brought it.

BN747
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:37 am

And Edwards being a lawyer and a politician, by definition is an expert at blowing smoke.

That's right, she hosts the newshow (Which I don't watch)

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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:57 am

Cheney really broadsided Edwards with mentioning the John's attendance record at votings....he goes "there was a vote- which you probably weren't there for anyways"....

Cheney really talked numbers and facts tonight, in my opinion. He looked well rested, and wasn't afraid to sock it out at all, since, that's what it takes when dealing with the enemy.

I didn't see the end, but did they end up exchanging handshakes, or fists?

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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:39 pm

They exchanged a gracious handshake.

They really only debated as 'enemies' on the topic of Iraq - everything else was mostly chapter and verse professional discussion.

And it should be noted Edwards had a memorable retort to Cheney's challenge of his record by remarking several of Cheney's most notable Congressional votes - including voting against the creation of MLK Day and Meals on Wheels for seniors.
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FDXmech
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:34 pm

The moderator did a good job.

But why was Cheney debating Jack Tripper?

And why didn't I see his Chrissie, Janet and the Roper's?

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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:50 pm

While I definitely believe Bush lost last week's debate by a wide margin, Edwards got his ass handed to him by Cheney. It wasn't even close.
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:09 pm

EA CO AS,

Cheney did everything expected of him and more. He is a consumate pro.

I like Bush but realize his public debating skills (not leadership) leave something to be desired. I hope the timing of the VP debate wasn't too early in the sequence of Presidentil debates. Meaning, I hope the memory of this debate doesn't fade too quickly.
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VSlover
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:19 pm

all i can say is wow. this was like watching two gay men go after eachother with pointed barbs. ridiculously good tv.

gwen iffel (sp) is the worst moderator i've seen in a long time. stumbling around, bad questions, etc.

it was a split i believe, with a slight edge given to cheney i believe only because he does have the experience of having been in politics for so much longer than edwards.

that was the largest display of passive aggressiveness i've seen in a long time! whew. i wish there was another of these!
 
flyyul
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:16 am

How exactly does Cheney get the win? more conservative navel-gazzing from this board.. it was an even battle, not like Bush and Kerry..  Big thumbs up

 
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:31 am

I think there was a lot of policitcal tap dancing on both parts. Cheney refered to "the president's stand..." several times.
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:35 am

>>>more conservative navel-gazzing<<<

Does that mean;

A) More conservative navel-gazing.

or?

B) More conservative navel-gassing.

or?

C) None oif the above.
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:51 am

How exactly does Cheney get the win? more conservative navel-gazzing from this board.. it was an even battle, not like Bush and Kerry..

C'mon, now...I'm pro-Bush, but even I can concede that he got run last week. Can't you sack up and own the fact that your man got boat-raced last night?
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VSlover
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:59 am

it was a close one.

besides, "conservative navel-gazzing"?? i'm FAR FROM conservative, but being educated and well read i'm able to take in many opinions, some even contrary to my own, and concede that Dr. No barely won this debate.

maybe were i able to watch it more closely, i'd change my tune, but from what i heard, i stand by my claim that Dr. No won. (i was listening more than watching since cheney burns my eyes)
 
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:00 am

EA... No kidding. I turned on "Air America" last night to see what the left was saying. They had nothing good to say about Edwards so all of the conversation was about the evil "Darth Cheney" as the commentor put it.

That tells you a lot.

Edwards got owned.
 
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:00 am

I watched the debate last night, every minute of it, and nobody left with the prize.

Edwards got attacked on his record, while Cheney got attacked on same-sex marriage (he didnt even answer the question, how dare those moderates now exactly HOW his partly feels (irregardless of his daughter)). Cheney also got slammed on Iraq and his ridiculous quotes... and the factthat his govt right now is in a 5 TRILLION dollar deficit.

No way Cheney took the cake on this one.. sadly.

 
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:05 am

Edwards was not owned... and the polls show a split.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/06/debate.main/index.html

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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:06 am

I love how Republicans can freely admit that Bush was soundly thumped by Kerry in the first debate, but Democrats can't come to grips with Edwards being taken to the woodshed last night.

I guess they're too busy covering their ears to the opinions of Cheney's win and yelling, "LA LA LA LA - I DON'T HEAR YOU - LA LA LA LA" in hopes that if they don't hear it, it somehow won't exist.
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spinzels
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:09 am

Edwards got his ass handed to him by Cheney. It wasn't even close.

Glad you have such strong feelings, but if you think that “Edwards got his ass handed to him” you are in a very small minority. The Polls show that the viewing public viewed the debate as pretty close or a draw, with independent voters more likely to give a win to Edwards. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041006/ap_on_el_pr/debate_rdp

After Kerry’s drubbing of Bush last Thursday, I’m not surprised that you are ready to believe anything, just please don’t present it as fact, ok?

I don't know what your favorite Cheney moment of the debate was, but my favorite Cheney moment was when he uttered this incredible falsehood:

CHENEY: Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session. The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_1005.html

Of course, Cheney was wrong, he and Edwards have met on at least two occasions before, one of those occasions being on the Senate floor itself! http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-meet6oct06,1,7026204.story?coll=la-home-headlines Here’s a photo of Cheney and Edwards together: http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog/archives/Cheney-Edwards.jpg

But not only did Cheney "mistakenly" believe that he and Edwards had never met, Cheney also greatly exaggerated his involvement with Senate business and his presence in the Senate Chamber:

Although Cheney is the Senate's presiding officer, he actually sits in the chamber only on rare occasions, such as to break a tie vote and to swear in new senators.
He does attend the GOP senators' weekly luncheons to discuss party strategy. But only Republicans attend, and Cheney usually breezes into the building, goes to the meeting, then leaves without hobnobbing with Democrats. In fact, Cheney was teased by Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) for only associating with Republicans when, in an encounter on the Senate floor, Cheney cursed at Leahy.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-meet6oct06,1,7026204.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Only Dick Cheney could pack so much deceit into two sentences.

Cheney did everything expected of him and more.

You are absolutely right! We did expect Cheney to peddle several outright falsehoods during the debate…he did that and more!

There are several good stories “fact checking” last night's debate, e.g.,: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/politics/campaign/06fact.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1097076645-4naz1foysKODqwJUt+PPRw, http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-truth6oct06,1,2984882.story?coll=la-bottom-elect2004, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10244-2004Oct5.html,
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spinzels
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:20 am

I love how Republicans can freely admit that Bush was soundly thumped by Kerry in the first debate, but Democrats can't come to grips with Edwards being taken to the woodshed last night.

The only problem with your argument: viewers gave Kerry a decisive victory last week http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/Vote2004/debate_poll_040930.html, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/01/opinion/polls/main646712.shtml, http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/01/debate.poll/index.html.

By contrast, early polls show viewers were evenly split about who won the Cheney-Edwards debate (again with independents leaning towards an Edwards victory). http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041006/ap_on_el_pr/debate_rdp

EA CO AS: Why do I have to admit something that even Dick Cheney would know is an outright falsehood?




Edit: Post was too decisive


[Edited 2004-10-06 18:30:14]

[Edited 2004-10-06 18:31:16]
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FDXmech
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 1:33 am

>>>Edwards was not owned...<<<

Then why after the debate, did he trail Cheney by three steps with a hand towel draped over his forearm and his other hand holding an ashtray? Hmmm?

[Edited 2004-10-06 18:35:06]
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:06 am

After Kerry’s drubbing of Bush last Thursday, I’m not surprised that you are ready to believe anything, just please don’t present it as fact, ok?


How can one's opinion be presented as fact?  Nuts

Again, my opinion is that Edwards fell flat on his face. It was almost sad, really.

when he uttered this incredible falsehood

Edwards had his share of falsehoods, like the "closed bid" crap about Halliburton. The fact remains that the one job they were the only bidder on was because they're the only company on the planet capable of handling that particular job!

Cheney didn't try to defend himself against the charge though, because defending it gives the claim credibility - which it doesn't have.

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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:16 am

In the interest of being totally fair, Cheney corrected himself about the "I never met you until tonight," comment to Edwards when reminded that he had met him earlier.
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flyyul
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:19 am

You must have a terrible unobjective view of politics if you think Edwards fell flat on his face.

I was expecting for this to be a runaway for Cheney, and he certainly did not.

In any event, another Bush ass whipping is coming Friday.. and I cant wait for Boeing7E7 to distort it.

 
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:24 am

So is my opinion that Bush was badly beaten last week based on an unobjective view as well? Are you saying Bush won last week, then?

You seem to imply that I'm right only when I agree with your thoughts.  Insane
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flyboy36y
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:44 am

EA CO AS:

When it comes to who won a debate, what really matters is what the country as a whole thinks. If either of them won it was by a narrow margin.
 
FDXmech
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:49 am

>>>You seem to imply that I'm right only when I agree with your thoughts.<<<

Bingo!!
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VSlover
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:00 am

anyone else feel at times that dick cheney was about to call in an airstrik on edwards's home?
 
Guest

RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:04 am

How can one's opinion be presented as fact?

How about by saying this:

"...but Democrats can't come to grips with Edwards being taken to the woodshed last night."

and this:

"Can't you sack up and own the fact that your man got boat-raced last night?"

and this:

"Edwards got his ass handed to him by Cheney. It wasn't even close."

Those comments speak of absolutes. You actually use the word "fact". They do not include phrases like "I think"..."In my opinion"..."From what I saw"...which would give you ownership of the statements, and therefore, it would be clear that it was your opinion.

But you say it this way because it's what you want to believe. You are so overwhelmed by your support for Bush/Cheney that you cant view it objectively. Anyone that can, witnessed a draw, not a one sided affair for either candidate.

Now, my take of the VP debate? Very even, therefore a default win for Edwards. I think open-minded voters will see that though inexperienced, he held his own against a grizzled vet like Cheney.

Hmmm, never thought I'd use the words Cheney and veteran in the same sentence, but there it is.  Big grin

B
 
ctbarnes
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:25 am

I could only watch about 30 minutes before it became too painful to watch.

Same old stuff, Cheney slags off Edwards; Edwards slags off Cheney with little new or original  Sleepy

In terms of style, Cheney looked too much like his usual sourpuss self; he never smiled once. If he would have made a joke about himself it would have scored big points. Edwards on the other hand acted like he was in a high school debating contest. Too pat and rehersed to the point it looked like what it was: contrived.

I call it a draw.

Charles, SJ

[Edited 2004-10-06 20:32:52]
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spinzels
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:28 am

Edwards had his share of falsehoods, like the "closed bid" crap about Halliburton.

You can do better than that, right? How about a few more specifics? If Edwards had his share of falsehoods it won’t be hard to find just one of them and paste his exact words in.

In the interest of being totally fair, Cheney corrected himself about the "I never met you until tonight," comment to Edwards when reminded that he had met him earlier.

No not really. The only correction we have comes from Elizabeth Edwards who said that when she reminded him after the debate that the Edwards and Cheneys had met at the prayer breakfast on 2/1/2001, Cheney replied “oh, yeah”. Given that Cheney’s line was clearly canned and planned in debate prep., you would figure that he would at least call FoxNews and come clean himself.

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spinzels
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:33 am

Hmmm, never thought I'd use the words Cheney and veteran in the same sentence, but there it is.

 Laugh out loud  Laugh out loud B, that was very good!

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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:36 am

Edwards had his share of falsehoods, like the "closed bid" crap about Halliburton.

"Factcheck.org, run by the Annenberg Center of the University of Pennsylvania, said on its site on Wednesday that Cheney not only got the domain name confused, he had mischaracterized its fact-finding.


"Cheney ... wrongly implied that we had rebutted allegations Edwards was making about what Cheney had done as chief executive officer of Halliburton," the site said on Wednesday.


"In fact we did post an article pointing out that Cheney hasn't profited personally while in office from Halliburton's Iraq (news - web sites) contracts, as falsely implied by a Kerry TV ad. But Edwards was talking about Cheney's responsibility for earlier Halliburton troubles. And in fact, Edwards was mostly right."


From:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&ncid=696&e=3&u=/nm/20041006/pl_nm/campaign_cheney_blunder_dc

B

 
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:49 am

NonRevKing, you're right - I did mistakenly use the word "fact" when I should not have.

I'm big enough to own up to my own mistakes.  Big grin
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Klaus
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RE: The Official Vice Prez Debate Thread

Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:35 am

Just watched it today...

Both held their own and both showed characteristic weaknesses:

Cheney exuded his usual dark-red glowing aura of evil, while Edwards looked a bit too much like a lightweight with an unpresidential lack of gravitas (not that that had stopped Bush, but it´s still a weakness)...

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