tangoecho
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 3:10 am

Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:26 am

In the news today in the UK there is a big clamp down on Illegal music file sharing.

Question 1: Do you think it's right or wrong?? (your thoughts)

Question 2: Do you, or have you ever downloaded music through file sharing??

I do file share, and don't think it's a problem apart from the fat cat music companies not getting as much as they used too.

Stu..  Big thumbs up

Contact Aberdeen tower on 118.10 G'day.
 
jamotcx
Posts: 839
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:20 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:35 am

Well to be honest looking at the lifestyle that most of these people that make music have, I'm all for file sharing! Fair enough if the prices were slashed so that they got on average the same as everyone else in a year then I would have no problems with buying the stuff.

I know this isnt everyone's opinion, and when my software is out there and people are distributing it as warez I'll be really pissed off, but I'll probs still have the same opinions on music warez.


Jamo
 
mdsh00
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Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 4:51 am

In a way it is wrong because you aren't paying for the music that you are listening to. On the other hand, I don't feel too bad because sometimes these record companies deserve it. I believe that the companies make way more per album sold than the artist themselves. My philosophy is that I will purchase the albums of artists that I truly like and support. Many of today's albums (especially crap like Clay Aiken, Britney, J-lo) are all 2-3 good songs padded with junk.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:18 am

I do file share, and don't think it's a problem apart from the fat cat music companies not getting as much as they used too.

Wrong. It will always be talented newcomers that suffer from illegal file "sharing" (which is an euphemism btw).

If you publish a new album from an unknown band, you'll have to spend at least EUR 100,000 - EUR 150,000. To cover expenses and make some profit, that very album would have to hit the top ten rankings. Over the recent decades, profits that came pouring in thanks to more successful musicians, had been used to subsidize new talents.
Tony Banks, keyboarder of Genesis, in an interview said that their record label barely made any profit over the first ten years!
Nowadays, record labels are reluctant to support new bands, and that - to a large extend - is a result of theft.
I support the right to arm bears
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:50 am

Well to be honest looking at the lifestyle that most of these people that make music have, I'm all for file sharing!

What lifestyle? If all members of one band together receive EUR 2.50 per record sold (5 musicians = 0.50 each), this band is extremly successful. What you say is that you are willing to steal overpriced flight tickets because the CEO of the airline and his small inner management circle earns millions. It's the ground crew that will receive pink slips.
And if some musicians are multi millionaires, because millions like their music - what's wrong with that?

I believe that the companies make way more per album sold than the artist themselves.

That's correct, and I tell you what: My publisher makes more money from my books than I - who wrote them - do. But still I want people to buy my books. Name one musician who says that it's ok to steal music, because record label make more money than they do.

Many of today's albums (especially crap like Clay Aiken, Britney, J-lo) are all 2-3 good songs padded with junk.

Love it or leave it. Or buy singles. You won't steal a car because you only like its front part, do you?

[Edited 2004-10-07 23:16:21]
I support the right to arm bears
 
ArmitageShanks
Posts: 3754
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:04 am

It's stealing. Period.

If a record company wants to charge 45 dollars for a CD, they can. If you don't like it, go out there and make some better music and sell it cheaper. If someone makes something others like, they should have the right to sell it at any price they want.
 
yhmfan
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:44 pm

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:34 am

I agree that file sharing of current music is inappropriate.
However, when you are looking for some of the "Golden Oldies" or some obscure music I see no problem with it.
You either cannot find it in the stores or, if you find the song, it is bundled in a collection of 10 other CD's for only $19.99 for the next 24 months!!!
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:38 am

Is it stealing? yes.

I think there are some seriously positive side effects though. Now the music industry has to put out better CDs. Before, it was not unheard of to have say 12 songs on a CD, maybe 1 of them was good and people would blindly buy the CD not knowing. Now, with file sharing, you can download the whole CD before you go out and buy it, if it is worth your money, you spend it. If not those CDs sit on the shelf collecting dust. So in other words: File sharing may force Britney Spears to have to work where she belongs, a strip club.

Also, it does help bands nobody has heard of get their stuff out there, for free. Some bands also, don't give a shit.

Do I do it? yes. I go out of my way to download Metallica, even though I hate them. Then I delete that crap and download them again. I have difficulty with a guy who flys around the country in a learjet telling me not to do something because I am hurting his income. I download other music, some stuff I like, some of it is for a class I am presently taking. It simply would not make sense for me to go out and buy 20 cds from as many bands for my history of rock class (I needed an art credit). So I go download the required listening.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
killjoy
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:45 am

It's not as simple as "go out there and make some better music and sell it cheaper". If someone sells towels for 100 €, I can go buy another brand, because my objective is to dry myself, not to use a towel. I can not, however, buy an album from CCR if the Rolling Stones are overcharging, because my objective isn't to listen to music, it's to listen to the Stones.

Each distributor in essence has a monopoly on the music it's selling. It's also not a natural monopoly - it has been granted by the government. Therefore it is not at all clear that they have the right to charge whatever they want. It's just how it's been for a long time, and no one in power seems to realize that there are alternatives.

Rampant piracy is the result of a broken system, not a sudden increase in "theft" as the major labels would want us to believe. Furthermore, there is no reason that releasing a piece of music needs to cost anything. You just put it on the internet and spread the word. If it's good, people will hear about it.

In theory, that is. The problem is that so much money is spent on marketing music, that you can't really have your voice heard without utilizing the same tactics yourself. The market is stacked against the small players! Put simply, the record companies are creating the problem that requires their existence. (And the executives are laughing all the way to the bank)

Artists would be much better off just releasing stuff for free and requesting donations. If the entire market operated this way, enough people would be willing to donate to make it work. In fact, the population is so huge, and the costs so low, that everyone would have to give a completely negligible sum.

As a final note, artificial scarcity is evil. It is unconscionable to restrict art (music) to only those who can afford to pay for it, when distribution has a marginal cost of zero. The record companies need to go down in flames.


And to finalize my rant with a note about software, having your binaries warezed is appropriate punishment for not open sourcing your program in the first place  Big grin .
 
NUAir
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:56 am

Other ways to copy things that are considered to be legal...

Radio

VCR

DVD

CD burner

Cassette Deck

I used to always copy music from the radio when I was growing up and I even shared my tapes and made recordings for my friends. Now we are prosecuting 12 year old girls for doing the same thing on the internet....

This seems to be just a case the recording industry getting greedy.

If they were smart they would have caught on early and sold their music through sites like RealOne and Imusic. Now they are pissed off because of their lack on inovation and ability to adopt to new trends.

"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:56 am

I used to always copy music from the radio when I was growing up and I even shared my tapes and made recordings for my friends. Now we are prosecuting 12 year old girls for doing the same thing on the internet....

No. Broadcasters pay for songs they play on the radio, and so you did when you bought a cassette tape. Not to mention that each dublicate caused a loss in quality.

Not so the internet. You simply can not control distribution via the net. It's still stealing, plain and simple.

Furthermore you don't need to buy CDs blindly. You can listen to them first.

Rampant piracy is the result of a broken system, not a sudden increase in "theft" as the major labels would want us to believe.

It's a result of both.

Artists would be much better off just releasing stuff for free and requesting donations.

Artists want to get payed, they don't wish to rely on donations.

The record companies need to go down in flames.

What a joke. Musicians need the industry to record their music. Only wealthy musicians have studios of their own. They need engineers, producers and distribution channels other than the internet. You have no idea what you are talking 'bout.
Many - if not most - record labels act on behalf of their shareholders; it's pure capitalism not supporting arts. True. But the fact that they radically reduced their support for unknown artists is also a result of Napster & Co.

And then there are small recording companies. They care for their musicians but people still give a rat's ass and steal their music.

All this talk about wealthy CEOs laughing their butts of in their business jets is one lame excuse for ... stealing.
I support the right to arm bears
 
ArmitageShanks
Posts: 3754
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:10 am

What if someone started taking gas from your tank every night. Not a lot, just a gallon or liter.... You would be mad. It's the same thing. Artists and record companies put time and effort into making these albums and they deserve to profit from them.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:41 am

the whole music sharing thing is a farce.

And hte arguements above are great. I mean, all I have to do is pick up the CD at the local library and copy the songs.

Its absolutely ridiculous.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:49 am

There is no way in HELL I can feel sorry for the industry that's given us Nstink, Toby Keith, 50 cent, Nelly, Pink, Creed and other garbage on MTV.

I can careless if that industry falls flat on it's face!


The industry has failed to promote talent like they used to back in the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s.
The industry rather get some illiterate punk from high school or some skinny chick and slap a bunch of makeup on them and call them artist. The record company laughs all the way to the bank as they rack in 95% of the profits from CD sales and the so-called artist is to make there money on tour.
As if someone is stupid enough to spend $150.00 to see Nelly.
Bring back the Concorde
 
photopilot
Posts: 3068
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:26 am

Well it's really simple here in Canada.

You see, we have all PAID for the music we download. So it's not stealing as far as I am concerned. Of course, you ask yourself how we pay for music we download. Well it's really simple.... and outright theft on behalf of the music industry.

Every time you buy a blank cassette, blank CD (to burn) or blank Videotape, you pay a royalty fee that is turned over to the Recording Industry. Of course it doesn't matter that the blank Cd's I purchase are being used to archive the digital photos that I take with my personal digital camera. Just to store my photos I am ripped-off and forced to pay royalties to the recording industry. Ask me how that is fair? They steal from me, and therefore I feel absolutely no guilt or remorse when I download music that belongs to them.

They have even tried (unsuccessfully so far) to get the government to impose a fee (to be turned over to them of course) on every SD or CF chip sold. They are trying to say that these are used to put music on for MP3 players. Oh, and they also want a fee to be added to USB keys that people like me use to transfer files from home to work. Every single possible digital storage media the recording industry wants to tax. Oh, and the absolute silliest is that they want to add a fee to all Hard Drives in the neighbourhood of $4.00 PER GIGABYTE of storage space. Now calculate the FEE they want for the next 80 Gig hardrive you might want to buy.

So now you see how GREEDY the recording industry is, and how they want to extort money even from people who use digital media for other uses. So they have lost all my respect or support and I now download freely whatever songs I want and can find on the net. You see.....I've PAID FOR THEM ! ! !

Steve
 
solarix
Posts: 839
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:31 am

The real crooks in this are those belonging to the RIAA.
Bong Hits 4 Jesus
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:58 pm

There is no way in HELL I can feel sorry for the industry that's given us Nstink, Toby Keith, 50 cent, Nelly, Pink, Creed and other garbage on MTV.

Yet again Superfly makes an excellent point. Talent is a thing of the past in music, now it is all about who looks good, because they can make anyone sound good in a studio.

The Beatles were artists, Bob Dylan was an artist, Little Richard was an artist. Britney Spears is NOT an artist, Nstync were NOT artists, Hilary Duff is NOT an artist by any stretch of the imagination..

Both lists are long and distinguished, MTV claims to have revolutionized the music industry, and that is true to an extent, they made it totally devoid of actual musical talent. I have to admit I am pretty sick of continuing to support their shitty industry with the few dollars I have. In recent years I have bought fewer CDs and downloaded more. This is also a product of most new CDs coming out stretching to have 1 good song on them. Why should I pay like $12 for one song that I will get tired of in a few weeks then shove it on a rack in the corner and not think about it again for a year or two?

My girlfriend used to buy a lot of music, she has stacks of CDs, I thought it might just be a product of us turning into grouchy senior citizens but it seems like everything coming out is absolute crap. Neither one of us has paid money for music in over 2 years, simply because a few good songs come out, but no good CDs come out that we can justify the expense of paying for.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:05 am

It should be up to the artists.

Simple solution:

If you want people to have it free, artists can put the songs on their site for free or through managements site for free.

If the artists don't want that, then charge a download fee in the same manner.
 
killjoy
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:00 am

Yes, studios and engineers are needed. But that's just a small part of what the companies are doing, and studios can get much cheaper technology today than 50 years ago.

I should've said that *current* record companies need to go down in flames. Small ones that care for their artists are ok, too.

I still think that a completely new business model is needed, though. And I think a lot of people would be surprised to find out how much money would be donated if that was the way the market worked.
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:32 am

Here is my insider version of this whole music sharing thing...

I am a product of Northeastern University (NU of NUAir) and am still good friends with Sean Fanning's ex girlfriend. We would have graduated in the same class at the business school had he stayed.

I remember when she first told me about his idea for Napster and I said the idea was complete shit, who would go to the internet for poor quality music with no selection, to listen to it on their computer speakers? People want to play cd's on big systems and I said the mini-disk would be the next music revolution!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Now Sean has 5 condos and over $500,000 in investments and I'm working for someone else renting a shit apartment in DC.

The idea was never supposed to be this big. It was for a bunch of roomates to share songs from cd's that they purchased and as people found out about it, it grew exponentially until almost everyone at Northeastern was signed on (this goes back to my radio arguement). It actually overloaded the main server at NU because of all the transfers that were going on. Eventually others found out about it and everyone was hooked up. At this point Sean spoke with a friend of mine who was an intern with Sony in NY and proposed this whole idea of music sharing and being able to distribute music online. Sony almost laughed him out of the office for many of the same reasons I disagreed with it and said it would never catch on...

Well it did. The record companies made a huge huge huge mistake and because of that they want to penalize us for doing this even though cd sales are still growing at the same rate, because as I said people still want to have music on cd's to play in the car or where ever. So you go online, download some songs, like the artist, and buy the album. This sounds perfect!

...but you can always use your computer to burn the cd and never have to pay anything at anytime and as this technology catches on pre-recorded cd sales could be the victim.

Now before that happens Sony and others have a perfect opportunity to release a superior product much like itunes where they could control the formatting of music and even program into each song file the ability to burn the song or transfer it. Have you ever tried to download your ipod music onto another computer? If they control the distribution they can control who has the music once again and go back to over-charging us for the crap that they put out.

but I think to feel sorry for the recording industry is a joke. The best musicians I know play down at a local jazz cafe for peanuts and arent millionairs and dont look beautiful but the music is great. If your a musician you should be doing it for the love of music not million dollar contracts. Most of the greatest musicians in American history died broke.



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
jamotcx
Posts: 839
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:20 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 3:44 am

Well to be honest looking at the lifestyle that most of these people that make music have, I'm all for file sharing!

What lifestyle?


Hmmmm your kidding right? Lets take a look at Britney Spears, what lifestyle indeed.

As far as I'm concerned if I can get anything for a cheaper way then so be it. Unless someone wants to give me sh*t loads of money, then fine I'd pay it. But as a student I find it hard enough to live on my money, nevermind paying for music.


Jamo
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:35 am

Well to be honest looking at the lifestyle that most of these people that make music have, I'm all for file sharing!

Do I think Avril Lavine (sp?), Eminem (sp?) and Good Charlotte are God's gift to the music world? Nope. Did they earn that money? Yes. Even if it was pretending to dance on stage while singing a terrible song, people still handed over their money to see them.

Fair enough if the prices were slashed so that they got on average the same as everyone else in a year then I would have no problems with buying the stuff.

Gee, how kind of you. I guess I'll go steal a Dell computer with Windows XP because both Michael Dell and Bill Gates are way to rich. Then I'm going to steal a new car, cause car company CEOs make way to much.  Insane

Many of today's albums (especially crap like Clay Aiken, Britney, J-lo) are all 2-3 good songs padded with junk.

Go to WalMart.com. They charge $0.88 a song and the owners of the music agreed on that price.

Now, with file sharing, you can download the whole CD before you go out and buy it, if it is worth your money, you spend it.

I'm sure most people don't bother to spend $14 on CD after they have the whole thing sitting on their hard drive. Both Borders and Wal-Mart have listening stations. Scan the UPC code and you can listen to a sample of the music. Or listen to the radio.

The industry rather get some illiterate punk from high school or some skinny chick and slap a bunch of makeup on them and call them artist. The record company laughs all the way to the bank as they rack in 95% of the profits from CD sales and the so-called artist is to make there money on tour.

People gladly fork over $14.95 or $17.95 or whatever it is to listen to them sing. I agree. They can't sing. For your second point: no one force the so called artist to sign the contract that said they make 5% of the CD revenue.

Unless someone wants to give me sh*t loads of money, then fine I'd pay it. But as a student I find it hard enough to live on my money, nevermind paying for music.

Would you steal a book or a magazine from Borders because one of the authors were making more then you thought was the appropriate salary? Please. Did the musician steal the money? No. People handed over their cash because they liked the "music", or their dancing or their body or why ever they purchased the CD.

I like this analogy. If you wanted a CD really badly, would you walk into Fye, pick up a CD, put it in a shopping bag and walk out? For most people, I doubt it.

AAndrew
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:58 am

I have said it many times and I will again:
music is a peace of art and CULTURE and should (must) NOT be done, produced, played ..etc. for the sake of money! It´s bad enough there are "professional artists" out there who make a living off their (so called) music.
So by all means, it is RIGHT!!!
BTW, I have lost a great deal of interest in those music acts who openly speak out against sharing/copying and I will never ever listen to anything from them again, let alone buying their stuff.
And I never bought more CDs and concert tickets as in the good ole Napster days. Because, how do you find good new music? It's (or was) through file sharing, the media sure don't help you finding good music these days.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:36 pm

But still I want people to buy my books. Name one musician who says that it's ok to steal music, because record label make more money than they do.

Nikkie Sixx of Motley Crue and Alice Cooper are two I can think of off the top of my head. Sure they want you to buy they're CD but they understand downloading will not stop and say go for it. I know Motley Crue openly lets you videotape their performances(bootlegging) and what not.

I don't usually download, for the most part I buy. I think I have 60 songs in my library.
 
Imonti
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:49 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:13 pm

I file share and I wont lie, it isnt right, but some bands now are become more open to file sharing, often up and coming ones as it is used to get them publicity.

The offspring did it
Seether.

Then offsprings record label told them to stop it or we pull the plug.
Seether not sure why.

My father prints cd jackets, so I should be against file sharing as the more cd jackets that are printed the greater his businesses profits, how ever in the grand scheme of things, a few cds lost means nothing. So it doesnt only hurt the music industry but other industries as well.

But this is how a friend of mine views it, and he has bought more cd's than has had hot breakfasts. If he is told band X is good, he goes and will download a song or 2 and if he likes it go and buy the CD, if he doesnt he deletes the songs and doesnt buy the cd, I also take that view. WHy buy a spend and your moolah on something you dont like? Itis quite a simplistic view, but in a nutshell that is me and file sharing.

Hey eay to his own, and I dont see how one person can criticise another for file sharing, "he with out sin, cast the first stone" ANy one that has never committed a crime can then say people who file share are bad/or what ever etc etc.
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:21 am

The only way to enjoy music......


 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:29 am

Aa757first:
The masses will buy ANYTHING that industry spoonfeds them. The average JoBloe just isn't sophisticated enough to seek out good music. JoeBlow and most teenage girls will just buy what's on display at the local shopping mall. What do they know?
So of course the industry will market the cheapest and dumbest act that's willing to sign the dotted line.

There are a lot of attention whores (male & female) that want to be seen and are stupid enough to agree to such a contract. By the way, ALL bands/acts have agreed to the same contract with record companies and only renegotioate AFTER they become a market sucess; Metallica, Elton John, Madonna. Your little punk in high school just can't waltz up in to a record company demanding the same contract that Elton John has.
Bring back the Concorde
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:44 am

fly...dude..just because you don't like the music does not mean that it ain't stealing and wrong. I agree that there is alot of crap being put out, but taste in music is individual and people who like should be able to get it. They should have to pay for the intellectual property of the artist if the artist wants to get paid. I believe that Chuck Berry and a few others who put out real music are tremendous beneficiaries of these laws, and this enabled them to continue putting out music, and when the artists did not get paid they ended up broke and not making any more (look at what happened to the average Motown artist who signed with Gordy).

Societal mores have been bent by young people who grew up with the internet and believe that anything available on it is their divine right to recieve. It ain't like tv folks, somebody had topay to put it together and market it. Somebody owns it and if you wanna play, you gotta pay.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
jamotcx
Posts: 839
Joined: Sun May 16, 2004 10:20 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:03 am

Gee, how kind of you. I guess I'll go steal a Dell computer with Windows XP because both Michael Dell and Bill Gates are way to rich. Then I'm going to steal a new car, cause car company CEOs make way to much

I'm sorry but being a CEO of a company comes with more responsibility and you also have to earn your way there. As far as I'm concerened the likes of Bill Gates have earnt their way to their riches. Singing a song and giving me something to listen to in the background for 3 minutes is hardly as useful as having my pc with its software allowing me to earn my living.

Would you steal a book or a magazine from Borders because one of the authors were making more then you thought was the appropriate salary?

No I'd download it as an ebook if I ever thought it was too much.

Anyways as breaking into someones house and stealing a £200 TV is seen in the UK as a minor crime, and people caught these days practically get away with it, how can "stealing" a £1 song be anywhere as near as bad? Especially when I dont cause damage in getting it, and certainly dont cause any harm to anyone else in psychological ways etc etc.

Now dont get me wrong I do buy music, but only music from artists I feel is deserving. Eg small unheard of groups/artists.

Also one other thing that some software companies have woken up to, if I would never have bought the software in the first place, wheres the harm in having a copy by warez just to mess about with? EG I would never buy a Britney Spears album and wouldnt miss any of her music at all, so would it really make any difference if I had a copy of her song somewhere? I dont think so.


Jamo


Jamo
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:10 am

DIO21:
Gordy shouldn't have sold the rights to Motown so cheap. The bulk of Chuck Berry's sales have already been purchased and he's made his money. Keep in mind file sharing has introduced many people to music they wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise. If people like the artist enough, they'll go out and support the artist and purchase there CD.
What about buying used CDs, cassettes, LPs, 8tracks, reel to reels and yes RCA VideoDisc?
Many of these are sold at used record stores, flee markets, thrift shops and yard sales. The artist nor the record companies get a penny. I remember back in 1993 when the record chain 'The Wherehouse' started to buy and sale used CDs. The record companies and Garth Brooks as there spokesman screamed bloody murder! Eventhough there have been stores doing this for years.

I have never downloaded a song off the Internet. I listen mostly to older music anyway and I prefer to have the original LP.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Matt D
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:12 am

Superfly:

No comment on the R2R clip featuring the Akai GX-747 blasting out the opening to "Living In The Limelight" by Peter Cetera?
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:01 am

Jamotcx,
Taking arguments out of context doesn't help. Read my entire post. Wealthy musicians like Spears or Springsteen only represent a small number of artists not the majority. And even if you steal only their CDs at your record store ... err .. download their songs, you foremost hit lesser known artist who are definitely not exactly wealthy.

Startofish,
While I understand what you mean, your conclusions are completely wrong, counterproductive and downright egoistic.

Care to tell two of my friends who both sing at operas and maybe another friend who's an actress that they shouldn't be professional actors or singers? What's wrong with being professionals? Our greatest achievements in culture have always come from professional artists.
If you don't want to see musicians being paid for their work, how about stealing tickets to get access to the thaters and cinemas? Are, in you opinion, actors allowed to make a living from their work?

I live in Berlin, arguably Europe's capital of non-conformistic, non-sponsored, non-commercial arts - and I enjoy that. But it would be a drag for artists to see that, regardless of their efforts and the quality of their performances, they will never be able to make a living from being an artist.
You mentioned "so-called" music. Could we at least agree that studying composition and learning how to play a musical instrument helps creating "real" music, and that this can not be done on a Sunday afternoon?
Than, in a logical conclusion, you will agree that public recognition can not be the only motivation, that success is more than polite applause.

The recording industry has its "merits" in the current development.
But those illegally downloading music are still egoistic people who are always willing to take, but never to give. In the (not so) long run this will only help mainstream musicians to survive, whereas authentic and idiosyncratic artists will fail.

NUAir,
Will Sean Fanning use his money to support artists? I mean, he got rich because he distributed other people's work without paying them, right?
There are still some independent record labels who care for their artists and support them. I don't see Sean Fanning doing that.
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Dash8King
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:17 am

Now dont get me wrong I do buy music, but only music from artists I feel is deserving. Eg small unheard of groups/artists.

So if they get big do you stop buying their CD's? Saying you only buy it from people who deserve it doesn't make sense. If you like someones music you should pay them for it, and if you download it you obviously like it.
 
martinairyyz
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:01 pm

Question 1: Do you think it's right or wrong?? (your thoughts)
I think it is right... all these years of stealing our $$$ for worthless crap should be repaid in our lifetimes!

Question 2: Do you, or have you ever downloaded music through file sharing??

Ofcourse! The only CD's I buy are of Deep Purple, U2, and Slade!
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:13 pm

I think it is right... all these years of stealing our $$$ for worthless crap should be repaid in our lifetimes!

I didn't pay one single Euro for worthless crap. Why should I? If you did, consider it a poll tax for the simple minded.
BTW, stealing is of course not ok and will only thin out the musical range and keep talented musicians off from recording studios.

Question 2: Do you, or have you ever downloaded music through file sharing??

Ofcourse!


Why of course? I'm really shocked to see young people being convinced that stealing's right.

New questions for you:

1) Would you still think it's ok if you were a musician who has to feed a family?

2) Do you steal tickets to see a baseball/football game arguing that your team didn't play well the last time and that they earn to much money anyway?

3) Do you steal TV sets, because TV sucks anyway?
I support the right to arm bears
 
NUAir
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:29 pm

NOUFO,

Sean didn't make that much money on Napster until he sold it. Before that he was taking in a few grand on advertising revenue but not much more then that. But you are correct in saying that none of that money went back to the artists.

The thing with the whole file sharing thing is that it really did help lead to the explosion of mp3 formatted music and the giant increase of mp3 players. I'm willing to bet that all of these artists and record labels are going to be making billions online through sites like imusic.

We now have a very convenient way of purchasing only the music we want. Do you think we would still have that option if people like Sean didn't force these companies to wake up and see a changing technology? Sony would still be telling us to buy minidisk players...

Maybe file sharing is hurting artists but I havent seen too many of them at the welfare office in my neighborhood or using food stamps at my grocery store. I would really love for someone to research and publish some actual stats on record industry income along with artist income since the introduction of file sharing, didn't Sony Records just hit another record in sales? I have a funny feeling that they are doing extremely well.

"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
martinairyyz
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:35 pm

1) Would you still think it's ok if you were a musician who has to feed a family?

Umm.... other than poor people and hobos who perform in the subway, there are none that need to feed their families.

2) Do you steal tickets to see a baseball/football game arguing that your team didn't play well the last time and that they earn to much money anyway?

I don't pay for spots games.......... my dad gets free tickets.. and anyway, why would I add to their $10 million salaray?

3) Do you steal TV sets, because TV sucks anyway?
Not TV sets, but 85% of Bulgarians in Toronto have American satellite, which have re-programmed cards. They refer to it as "file-testing"
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Mon Oct 11, 2004 12:49 am

NUAir, the problem is that talented musicians simply give up while others don't even think of starting a career as an musician. They "disappear" in offices - you may ask managers of independent recording companies.
Or to put it like Scott Adams:



MartinairYYZ, I suppose you never created something that made you proud. That would explain your lack of respect for the efforts and contributions of artists. You are a consumer, not a producer. You want to enjoy and possess - as much and as cheap as possible, no matter how many rights you violate.
I support the right to arm bears
 
jamotcx
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:34 am

Taking arguments out of context doesn't help. Read my entire post. Wealthy musicians like Spears or Springsteen only represent a small number of artists not the majority. And even if you steal only their CDs at your record store ... err .. download their songs, you foremost hit lesser known artist who are definitely not exactly wealthy.


I already stated anyone who I actually like who may need the money I will pay for the album. For example I bought FC Kahuna's album. Probably the best album I have ever bought. I also bought Renaissance Ibiza for the chillout CD on it just so they could get money to make more tracks.

But one thing is for sure, I will not buy a song without listening to it first, and as I never have time to listen to a radio I have to rely on web sites and file sharing to hear songs in the first place.


Jamo
 
bruno
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:55 pm

Screw the record companies. The play by a different set of rules than other industries. Making the moral right or wrong argument doesn't apply to an industry that's rotten to the core.So I say download and file share as much as you want. Let the record execs squeal until they are as broke and irrelevant as Rico Suave, John Tesh, Vannilla Ice and MC Hammer.
I support the women’s movement up and down!
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:04 am

I don't feel guilty using P2P programs. So the artist makes $7,000,000 instead of $9,000,000. They still have more money than the know what to do with. They don't need 2 extra diamond and gold crusted Bentleys. :p

Plenty of people don't have a computer or dont know how to download and burn music. They will buy the CDs.

It is not like I go out and sell a burnt album of an artist for money. I never use the music to earn myself money. I still buy full CD albums, but if I want a mix of a few songs, I burn one myself.

[Edited 2004-10-11 17:11:04]
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
noelg
Posts: 2313
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:26 am

I've downloaded music from P2P a couple of times in the past, but after the demise of Napster got so fed up of all the pop ups and viruses infecting my PC that I didn't for a long long while.

I found http://www.itunes.com a couple of weeks ago and have to say it's great! It's only 79p per song for crying out loud, and it's a small price to pay to not only stop feeling guilty but also to get a good quality song, not have to trawl the Internet looking for it and not be overrun with viruses!

[Edited 2004-10-11 17:26:52]
 
NoUFO
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:17 am

JAGflyer,
You didn't bother reading the tread, did you?

I don't feel guilty using P2P programs. So the artist makes $7,000,000 instead of $9,000,000.

Again, whenever a new record is going to be released, the recording company will spend at least 100,000 EUR, if not 150,000 Euro on it. To cover those expenses the company has to sell some 30,000 to 40,000 records. With 40,000 records sold, this very album would hit the top 10 if not the top 5. Since this is extremly unlikely, the company has to transfer money that comes from successful albums to sponsor the work of lesser known artists.
In other words: If you steal a record by Bruce Springsteen, it won't hurt Springsteen but the talented newcomers because recording companies, thanks to Napster & Co, are extremly reluctant to support new acts. Is that hard to grasp?

Now let's assume you play in a band of four talented but (relatively) unknown musicians. Your first (or 2nd or 3rd) album hits the street and becomes a great success: You sell 40,000 albums. That translates into some EUR 52,000 for all of you musicians together. You get EUR 13,000 incl tax. Not 9,000,000 nor 7,000,000. The profit of the recording company: +/- 0. Now, thats a lot, right? You only need to publish three very successful recordings each year to make a decent living.

That's right: It isn't worth it, and tha'ts why many musicians simply give up and "disappear" in offices. Many of them would make it if it wasn't for Napster. And remember: Even if you steal Springteen's music, it hits newcomer harder than Springsteen himself (who made his money in the 70ies and 80ies btw).

They still have more money than the know what to do with. They don't need 2 extra diamond and gold crusted Bentleys. :p

I'm from Berlin. Universal Music is here and they fire people because they can't pay them. How many of those receiving pink slips do you think drove Bentleys?
Than there is Germany's biggest record store here in Berlin as well. They close for good this month. Guess why and guess how many of them drove those ominous gold crusted Bentleys.

Now and then I write books. Two of my books hit the top five/ten ranking of amazon.de and stayed there over weeks if not months. German weekly "Die Zeit" listed one of my books, so did another weekly called "Focus". You don't think I'm rich, do you? I'm telling you that to stress that it is extremly hard to make a living from being an author, musician or painter.

Plenty of people don't have a computer or dont know how to download and burn music. They will buy the CDs.

Yeah, let other people pay your bill.  Yeah sure
As I said before: Those stealing music are extremly egoistic.

The play by a different set of rules than other industries.

And that is? Worse than stealing? How does that make your stealing right? Are you positive the food industry is so much better? The tobacco industry, car manufacturers, beauty industry .. you name it. Let's steal all their products. Did you steal records at your local store before Napster was invented because the recording industry "plays by a different set of rules" - whatever that may be?
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seb146
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:31 am

Here is my opinion about file sharing:

There is music not available or not popular in one country and nearly impossible to get in said country. File sharing allows for those artists to be heard around the world. Without file sharing, Caater would not be one of my favorite groups. I do purchase CDs from Tower, Sam Goody, amazon.com and the like. Robert Miles, Joe Satriani and artists I feel deserve my hard-earned money. But, Britney, Jessica and all "alternative" bands (the ones that sound the same that are played every 5 minutes) and the other crap that culture wants me to buy into: forget it.

GO CANUCKS!!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:38 am

But, Britney, Jessica and all "alternative" bands (the ones that sound the same that are played every 5 minutes) and the other crap that culture wants me to buy into: forget it.

Then don't listen to them and don't download their music. Period.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Superfly
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:30 am

Honestly, serious music lovers and 'true' fans buy there favorite artist CDs, and records. Those who's only source for music is file shareing aren't serious music lovers and are fair-weather fans of artist they download and I doubt there taste is savy and thus hurt celebs like Nstink, Creed, 50 cents and other worthless acts that will be yesterdays news next year.

I doubt great artist such as Steely Dan, James Brown, Earth Wind & Fire and RUSH are hurt by file sharing.
Bring back the Concorde
 
fritzi
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:30 am

I used to download music but I´ve quit. It was a real pain in the ass to burn CDs and having find the freakin song title in a folder with 500 other songs.

Now I´ve moved on to movies! Big grin
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1033
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:49 am

"...and downright egoistic."
Excuse me? I for one make music simply for the love of it and I don´t expect my audience to pay for it. So how is denouncing professionalism here egoistic?
I simply do not regard "culture related professions" as decent (or real) jobs, period.

The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
jamotcx
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:21 am

I used to download music but I´ve quit. It was a real pain in the ass to burn CDs and having find the freakin song title in a folder with 500 other songs.

Now I´ve moved on to movies!


Amen to that haha

23hours to download 4.7GB DVD on 512kbps adsl connex Big grin


Jamo
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Music File Sharing Right Or Wrong?

Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:46 pm

Yes, Startofish, stealing other people's work is egoistic, and whether or not you make music for the fun of it is a non-issue, since you can not impose your motivation behind making music on other people.

The "symplicity" you mentioned concerning the fact you are denying other people's profession is limited to the sure sign of simply being arrogant and smug.

Not only is some of my work art related; I really know some artists - three musicians, one painter/musician, one actress and one director/actress.
All of them are working incredibly, incredibly hard, and as much as they enjoy their work, they wouldn't and foremost couldn't do it if it wasn't for the public willing to support and honour their work.

I really do appreciate you are willing to make musik without any commercial attitude, but at the same time I consider your approach to other people's efforts and profession selfish and offensive.

With all due and honest respect to part-time artists - name any cultural beacon you want: Goethe, Mozart, Beatles, Kant, the ancient poets - none of them worked for the sole reason of "having fun".
In a logical conclusion, I'm not so keen on living in a community in which everyone works in factories and in offices but no one at theaters or in the music and film business, and I guess that goes for most people.
So much for that cynical remark on "real" jobs.

What Napster, the shareholder-value mentality of many recording companies as well as that smug and short-sighted "why-pay-for-it-if-I-can-steal-it" attitude do to music is compareable to the effect of not properly paying physicians would have on the health system.
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