Imonti
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Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:35 pm

Last night on National Geographic there was a program on UA 811 where the cargo door came open and a few people were sucked out. This one chap unfortunately died ont hat flight.

His parents set out on relentless persuit to discover what when wrong. As they said "unfortunately he didnt hit the engine and die instantly, he had to fall the full 4 minutes to the ground, I have no idea but 4 minutes is a long time, ok the human body does reach a terminal velocity, as they said it must be terrible, knowing that you might have been alive and realising you are plumiting to your death".

Does it really takes 4 minutes?

I dont know if the plane as at 32000 feet.

Well does any know the terminal velocity of a human, I cant really remember my science and te equations of motion.

Surely when he is plumiting to the ground, he will reach a terminal velocity and acceleration is 0 due to fricitonal force and he isnt getting, although what will the time be for him to reach that terminal velocity.

Also we assume that when he hits the water, is when time essentially stops for timing the fall.
 
L-188
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:43 pm

It wouldnt' have been the parents that pushed the issue, it would have been the lawyer they hired sueing Boeing, United, and everybody else they could to get damages out of them.

The longer somebody suffers the more emotional damage awards you can get.

Besides, he probably passed out on the way down. Skydivers that high wear masks for a reason.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Imonti
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:45 pm

They never sued united or boeing or ever asked for a cent.

They went to america and bought a car and drove around it countless times to find out what really happened and never asked for a cent back from any one.

they must have driven over 100000 miles easily.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:45 pm

Hopefully, he would have passed out do to lack of oxygen and been spared anymore pain as he was going down. One could only hope at that point.

Safe Flying  Smile
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Type-Rated
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:52 pm

On a documentary with his parents I saw, they said he got sucked into one of the engines as "parts" of him we found there. Has some new light been shed on this?
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
alitis
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:56 pm

FWIW, I vaguely remember from a statment from a physics class professor (a long time ago) that if anything was dropped from a very high altutude that had a mass over a cetain amount and not much wind resistance, terminal velocity would be around 150 mph. Someone asked if that is how fast skydivers fall before they pull the chute and he replied yes.
 
planespotterx
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:03 pm

I guess it all depends on how he fell, if it was head-first then I guess thered be less resistance and more speed, where'as thered be more drag had he fallen flat-out like a parachuter.
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:03 pm

Also, the incident did not occur at 32,000'. If it had, no one would have survived. I don't recall the actual altitude, but it wasn't FL320.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Imonti
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:24 pm

Apparently the DNA tests done reveal it wasnt his body parts in the engine.
 
Imonti
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:28 pm

does FL320 mean flight level?

Well oxygen masks were deployed and some one did say to me, people did need them. dont quote me on the people need it.

As i said I didnt know the altitude, but I did hear how long it took him to fall. 32000 is "quite a common aircraft altitude"
 
cedarjet
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:33 pm

Imonti, FL stands for Flight Level. It is measured in hundreds of feet, so 32,000 feet is Flight Level (FL) 320. 15,900 ft is FL159, 7,000 ft is FL070, etc.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Navion
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:40 pm

I thought the terminal velocity of the human body in a fall was about 126 miles per hour. I could be wrong but it does give an approximate idea of how long it would take a body to fall from any given altitude given the fact the acceleration to the terminal velocity would occur pretty quickly. Good question Imonti.
 
trident2e
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:48 pm

L-188, are you an idiot? Your first post here suggests you didn't even watch the programme. As Imonti says the parents didn't pursue compensation, they pursued the truth. And the truth was that Boeing tried to conceal evidence of a fault they knew about long before the United incident. The FAA was forced to change its findings as a result of the parents' investigation - something they shouldn't have had to do themselves.
 
SATL382G
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:48 pm

Here's the NTSB synopsis:


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X27705&key=1

This happened between FL22 and FL23. Ejected pax were probably concious all the way down
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
L-188
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:05 pm

No I did not watch the program

All I said was that the longer the guy was concious during his fall the larger a pain and suffering damage claim would be in court.

Just like if an old person dies as opposed to somebody in their prime. The latter would have more value in a court of law as far as damages go.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Imonti
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:10 pm

What happened was 2 years before this event pan am had a problem as the latches on the cargo door were made of aluminium and they could bend easily.

Boeing sent out a note to airlines, and the FAA gave them 18 months to chnge the looking system, yet it was less than a year for this even to happen, then after it the FAA gave the airlines 30 days to change it.

The reason they were given so long as such a simple procudure (one would think) takes 10 hours to do, major down time for a plane and major expense.

An aviation lawyer was interviewd and as he said, for an airline, one plane ever 5-10 years 200 peeps, is less than the cost to down an entire series of aircraft, untill ur mom or brother/sister or kid is on it. Yet in my opinion that was more to play on peoples minds and hearts, yet he does have a point.

As Trident2e says, the faa/ntsb first came out with a report contrary to the parents findings, the parents pushed and forced for the recovery of the cargo door, it was eventually fetched from the bottom of the ocean and then the faa/ntsb changed their report. Amazing how 2 dedicated people can do that on their own with out the knowledge and expertise as the faa and ntsb and arrive at the correct answer the first time in a shorter space of time.

One thing, as I know a few people who have lost loved ones on airplane crashes, 6 people in fact. They never once asked for financial repayments (yes they are wealthy) yet as the one guys wife said, u know what, no matter how much money they give me, my husband and father to my kids wont come back, and what can the money they give me actually do?
Her husband died on the helderberg, that saa 742, which was through peoples mistakes.

Ok back to the question.

does any one knwo the altitude that it happened?

v=u+at
v2=u2+2as
s=ut+1/2at2

v=final velocity
u=initial velocity
a=acceleration
s=displacement
although he didnt fall straight down which might mean I would then need to know the energy.

m1u1 + m2u2 = m1v1 + m2v2

m=mass


that equation can help assuming some one can tell me his body weight or average males weight, assuming he was average on weight and build.
 
777236ER
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:38 pm

It would take someone about 18 seconds to reach terminal velocity, which is about 60 m/s for a falling person with arms outstretched, which means the person would fall about 540 metres.

Assuming he started at FL230 = 7010m, he'd have 7010 - 540 = 6470m falling at a constant speed of 60 m/s, which would take him 108 seconds. So in total it'd take about 126 seconds.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
jamesag96
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:44 pm

Good lord...what a horrible thought. I would hope he passed out...
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jasepl
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:39 am

Wouldn't it also depend a lot on the body in question? I would think Rosie O'Donnell would hit the ground long before Calista Flockhart...
 
777236ER
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:42 am

She'd probably hit the ground after Calista Flockhart - she has much more surface area which means more drag which means a lower terminal velocity.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
vaporlock
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:44 am

Nope I didn't watch the program......and I'm glad I didn't!

Jamesag96, I'm with you....what a horrible thought and for sure he would have passed out...Thank God!!!!

Phyllis  Wink/being sarcastic
 
jasepl
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:16 am

She'd probably hit the ground after Calista Flockhart - she has much more surface area which means more drag which means a lower terminal velocity.

I would never, ever have thought of it that way 77236! Thanks. No wonder though, I kept failing physics in school...
 
airxliban
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:30 am

23000 ft is 7000 m.

y(t)=y_0+v_0*t-1/2*g*t^2

0=7000+(0)-1/2*(-9.8)*(t^2)

t=37.8 seconds

however this of course is not accurate because the world is not a vacuum.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
theCoz
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:04 am

Depending on your position, and altitude, terminal velocity is 120 mph+. If you were thrown into the thin atmosphere like that, wouldn't it be a lot like 'the bends'? I don't know much about the concept, but scuba divers experience it when they surface too quickly. I'd imagine this person would die almost instantly due to the force of air hitting him as well.
 
Espion007
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:58 am

Depending on your position, and altitude, terminal velocity is 120 mph+. If you were thrown into the thin atmosphere like that, wouldn't it be a lot like 'the bends'? I don't know much about the concept, but scuba divers experience it when they surface too quickly. I'd imagine this person would die almost instantly due to the force of air hitting him as well.

I would assume that too. falling out of a plane at near supersonic speeds can easily rip you apart like paper.
Snakes on a Plane!
 
jderden777
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:17 am

the time of useful consciousness of a person at 32,000 feet would be very short...from 25,000 it is only a couple minutes usually and the useful....so it is kindof a toss-up as to whether or not he passed out before hitting the ground....a sick thought to think about, but it is almost a given that he was at least hypoxic before he made it down to a breathable altitude...that could cause him to be dizzy, drowsy, euphoric, and numb....eventually if you are hypoxic long enough you will lose consciousness and it can even result in death, obviously if you don't have oxygen...

Thecoz & Espion007:
the bends is different than what would happen in a situation like this...the bends is an excessive buildup of nitrogen in the body (between joints) which causes extreme pain....
what happens at an altitude such as this is that the body experiences a deficiency in oxygen, which is hypoxia. symptoms such as those i mentioned above is what happens when you become hypoxic.

jonathan d.
"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
 
tbar220
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:17 am

Wow, this is an interesting physics problem. I assume you would just need to draw a free body diagram, you have the force of acceleration acting downwards (gravity) and the frictional force acting upwards (atmosphere). But what makes it more complicated is that the atmosphere changes density as you descend through it, especially from that height, so that would change the frictional force which might (I don't know) change the terminal velocity. I wish I could remember the formulas for all this.

Whatever the answer is, its not a pleasant thing to think about, given the situation this poor guy was in.
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777236ER
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:33 am

Wow, this is an interesting physics problem. I assume you would just need to draw a free body diagram, you have the force of acceleration acting downwards (gravity) and the frictional force acting upwards (atmosphere). But what makes it more complicated is that the atmosphere changes density as you descend through it, especially from that height, so that would change the frictional force which might (I don't know) change the terminal velocity. I wish I could remember the formulas for all this.

You could go even further and say that acceleration due to gravity changes too  Smile. Just assume density is constant. Or just take the average value between the two points (1.225kg/m3 ISA at sea level, 0.58753kg/m3 ISA as FL230)
Your bone's got a little machine
 
flight152
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:24 pm

Imonti, FL stands for Flight Level. It is measured in hundreds of feet, so 32,000 feet is Flight Level (FL) 320. 15,900 ft is FL159, 7,000 ft is FL070, etc.

Cedarjet is only partially correct. Flight levels start at 18,000 feet MSL (FL180), anything under that is just measured in thousands of feet.
 
jcxp15
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:34 pm

Being hypoxic can be a lot of fun!
 
Imonti
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:10 pm

Thanks for the help every one and the equation 777236ER,

as where some one pointed out about Rose and Calista, they will hit the water at the same time. "Apparently"
 
777236ER
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:10 pm

Cedarjet is only partially correct. Flight levels start at 18,000 feet MSL (FL180), anything under that is just measured in thousands of feet.

You're only partially correct. Flight levels start at 18,000 feet ISA in the US. In other places, they start at different heights.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
L-188
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:16 pm

That and when I file a flight plan on Duats it is listed as FL regardless of altitude.

Clear for FL020.

Just one of the weird quirks of the system I guess.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
jderden777
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:36 pm

Flight levels are at 18,000 and up...they are called flight levels because the altimeter is set to 29.92" at & above FL180 as that is the start of Class A airspace...but in lower altitudes the altimeter is peridically set with the nearest station's setting...

jonathan d.
"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
 
777236ER
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:40 pm

Flight levels are at 18,000 and up...they are called flight levels because the altimeter is set to 29.92" at & above FL180 as that is the start of Class A airspace...but in lower altitudes the altimeter is peridically set with the nearest station's setting...

In the US, yes. Fortunatly there is another world outside your boarder.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N6376M
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:23 am

When I did my sky dive training we used about 2 miles a minute as a rough estimate of how fast you fell in free fall. That coincides with 120 mph terminal velocity figure provided above.

Obviously the air density affects this calculation and the terminal velocity figure is only valid below 15,000 or so. As an interesting side note, in the 50's or 60's the airforce had an officer parachute out of a ballon that was at something like 100,000 ft. He actually broke the sound barrier in free fall due to the low density altitude. To this day he's the only person to have broke the sound barrier outside a vehicle.
 
jaysit
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:31 am

Remember that he would not have fallen straight down - he would have been ejected out of the cabin in the opposite direction of the movement of the aircraft at about the same speed in a horizontal direction after which point the force due to momentum would be counteracted by gravity, resistances, etc. Thus, his trajectory would be hyperbolic at first.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
777236ER
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:39 am

Remember that he would not have fallen straight down - he would have been ejected out of the cabin in the opposite direction of the movement of the aircraft at about the same speed in a horizontal direction after which point the force due to momentum would be counteracted by gravity, resistances, etc. Thus, his trajectory would be hyperbolic at first.

It would be parabolic all the way down. It wouldn't affect his vertical motion.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
airlinelover
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RE: Time Taken For A Human Body To Fall 32000 Feet

Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:44 pm

Let's find out!! LHMark- time to take a dive..

wait..

it'd be a shame to waste all that beer..

nm

Chris
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