NWDC10
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Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:24 pm

There has to be something done to help the airlines.I think we depend on airlines more than the bus and train. We need the airlines to be healthy. But depending on other countries for our energy needs is not the answere. Saudi Arabia and others can "shove" their oil. We need to start making a fuel alternative and start supporting our "own" when it comes to fuel/energy. Robert NWDC10
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:32 pm

Come on guys! Corn-powered turbofans! Yee-haw! Big grin

 
RogerThat
Posts: 505
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:39 pm

Richard Nixon said the same thing over 30 years ago.

It all starts with you. Blow some more insulation and install an attic fan and you will cut your AC bill by half.

But to save some real dough, go with grease power

http://www.greasecar.com

 
supa7E7
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:50 pm

Airlines will be just fine no matter how high oil goes. They will whine about it, but it's just money from tickets. If oil hits $100 per barrel, Southwest will still set prices at a profitable level. No big deal.

It is a falsehood to say we'll have no air service at $100 a barrel. There will be plenty regardless.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
NWDC10
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:55 pm

I guess the USA is at the mercy to all these countries then. Robert NWDC10
 
air2gxs
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:04 pm

No, the US is not at ther mercy. Scientists suspect we have plenty of oil in the ground in Alaska. We're just not "allowed" to drill there because we could hurt the eco-system.

Remeber, when talking alternative fuels, we're still looking at driving turbo-fans via internal combustion. We will not be completely free of energy concerns (at least those that deal with oil) until we break the paradigm. We (civilization) have to come up with a suitable alternative to the internal combustion engine. Soalr can't drive a B747 sized aircraft. Nuclear is too dangerous to put in the air. Something needs to be developed.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 2:15 pm

Aviation as a whole is moving to efficiency levels thought not attainable 10 years ago.

Sad thing is. Nulcear power generation has improved 10 fold and America is too chicken chit to start building new plants in the middle of no-where that would eliminate our relliance on Coal and Natural Gas for power generation.

Takes some cash and strateigic planning (as far as location) that no one wants to touch with a ten foot pole.
 
icarus75
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:06 pm

Air2gxs : the thing that needs to be developped is you, american people, trying not to waste so much energy!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Flying is amazing!
 
srbmod
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:28 pm

The rise in fuel costs will lead to savings down the road as more older less fuel efficient a/c get retired and replaced with more fuel efficent a/c. Plus the fuel costs will probably put a few airlines out of business, which would reduce the amount of a/c in the skies, leading to cleaner skies (especially if those airlines had newer a/c that end up at other airlines replacing older gas guzzlers).

Back in the 1950s, there were attempts at a nuclear powered a/c, a B-36 (designated the RB-36) was used for the experiment. Currently, there are plans on the drawing board for a nuclear-powered Global Hawk UAV. Theres was an article in Popular Mechanics earlier this year on the possibility of a nuclear-powered a/c:
http://popularmechanics.com/science/aviation/2004/5/atomic_wings/print.phtml

It would be a great step in technology if an alternative fuel powered jet engine were developed that could be economically feasible for commerical use. Unless the fuel for that engine is in the same price range as the current fuels in use, it will not be successful. Reading about biodiesel, which is a diesel fuel substitute derived from vegetable oil, soybean oil, and other natural materials, since it can be used as a fuel in diesel-powered engines, and Jet-A is very similar to diesel fuel, why not look at a biodiesel based version of Jet-A? Ethanol and several other biologically derived fuels have also been mentioned as alternative fuels for aviation use, some experiments have been done using a Jet-A mixed with some of the alternative fuels.
 
EuroLeb
Posts: 141
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 12:05 am

Saudi Arabia and others can "shove" their oil.

Sure Robert; maybe Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Lybia and others should stop buying your US made Boeing and focus primarily on Euro-rival Airbus in return? Why do some of you people keep blaming America's problems on others? Isn't time to shy away from this kind of arrogance/ignorance?

You have to remember also that the US is one of the world's largest oil producers (if not the largest), and therefore, it's benefitting lucuratively from the sharp rising in oil prices. Hey, maybe we North Americans should stop using those large SUV's and switch to smaller/more energy efficient cars! Can you imagine how far the demand for oil worldwide would drop!!!

[Edited 2004-10-09 17:08:46]

[Edited 2004-10-09 17:10:01]
Calgary is my home...
 
mia
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:30 am

MIA's steps to reduce foreign dependence on oil:
1. Vote Democrat ticket for the presidency on November 2nd.
2. Nationalize Oil Holdings in America (thats the only wya to get oil corporations OUT of the picture).
3. Use the profits from this new Nationalized oil to truly invest in alternative fuels research.
4. Use the profits to encourage, if not force automobile manufacturers to put out fuel efficient vehicles, like more turbo diesel powered vehicles, hybrid vehicles, etc.
5. Use the profits to build a green public transportation system within urban areas.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
NWDC10
Topic Author
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:55 am

When you buy gas from Saudi arabia, they turn right around and buy weapons against the USA. So we should be independant to help our own airlines out. Robert NWDC10
 
NWDC10
Topic Author
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:02 am

You DON'T bennefit from sharp rising oil prices. It hurts the economy by taking more money out of the economy just to buy higher energy. We need to be independant and provide for our own to FUEL OUT OWN AIRLINES. I guess the shadow don't know how to read well. Robert NWDC10
 
NWDC10
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:26 am

And ther is no end to higher oil prices in sight. Robert NWDC10
 
N771AN
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...

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:48 am

as long as Americans continue to use energy at such wasteful rates you will also be reliant on unstable countries

American's use less oil per unit of output then most countries. By international standards we are neither a major energy waster or energy conserver (per unit of output). Many of you forget that there are tons of other uses for oil that don't include gas guzzling SUV's (which I even can't stand).
 
N771AN
Posts: 411
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:27 pm

...

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:50 am

When you buy gas from Saudi arabia, they turn right around and buy weapons against the USA.

And those weapons are also made in the USA.
 
NWDC10
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:53 am

BINGO N771an Robert NWDC10
 
N771AN
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...

Sun Oct 10, 2004 2:55 am

BINGO N771an Robert NWDC10

So we should stop buying Saudi oil and they'll stop buying Lockheed Martin missles??
 
NUAir
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:38 am

"No, the US is not at ther mercy. Scientists suspect we have plenty of oil in the ground in Alaska. We're just not "allowed" to drill there because we could hurt the eco-system."

I don't know how many times this has to be brought up before people understand...

Alaska Crude reserves: 4,678 million barrels
US Total Crude demand: 7,433 million barrels (2004)

Alaska could only provide 61% of total US crude consumption for 61% of one year!!!!!

That is the plan for decreasing our dependence on foreign oil?

Can we just please face the fact that nobody wants to drill in Alaska except for some politicians in Alaska who need to revive the economy so they can get re-elected and some other politicians who support them.

If you really want to solve the problem of dependency the government has one option in a capitalist society. Taxes!!

Kerry's $0.50 cent per gallon tax wouldn't do anything since gasoline is estimated to only be price elastic at above $3.00 per gallon, the point in which consumers will stop driving SUV's and will be looking for alternatives. But believe it or not head conservative economists (the ones that Bush listens to) are saying that we should be looking at an increase in the gas tax by about $1.00. Why?

If we dont we are going to get our ass served to us on a plate by Europe and Asia. In other countries gas is taxed sky high which is providing tons of incentives for companies and consumers to look for alternative products or public transportation. Because of this most of the progress being made in areas such as wind, solar and hydrogen is not being done in the US. So eventually they are going to use their advances to produce cars that can run on 100+ mpg or on a tank full of hydrogen at a fraction of the cost of what we pay and as soon as they introduce these products to the US you are going to see the 1980's all over again with US manufacturing jobs going bye bye as the big three once again get invaded by superior technologies and products from abroad.

Now if we tax the shit out of gasoline we can use the revenue to fund research and development of new technologies that will decrease our dependency on foreign oil and decrease our trade deficit. Universities will also benefit from billions of dollars in grants which will help reduce their dependency on federally funded money and we could see the creation of hundreds of thousands of manufacturing and engineering jobs to produce these new products. New companies focusing on these technologies would also bring in trillions of FDI from investors who want to be at the head of these markets (Iceland alone broght in $367 billion in FDI for hydrogen research and development in 2003).

Or we could sit on our ass and watch as other countries do it.

Good choice Bush and Kerry!
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
mrniji
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 3:51 am

American's use less oil per unit of output then most countries. By international standards we are neither a major energy waster or energy conserver (per unit of output).

You gonna be kidding me..! Our per capita use of oil is immense!


The irony of the story is: My father is an engineer and has worked in alternative research. He said that if the nations had invested the same amount of money in alternative energy research as we did in nuclear power and modernization of oil, gas and etc plants, it would have been very likely that we were not dependent on these resources.. People: there is so much natural energy everywhere! Take the sun, wind, waves, water, heat in the soil etc etc etc... ! We just researched in the wrong areas, often due to military interests and lobbys behind (oil lobby and their alliance with car and plane manufactures)... it is correct, what Robert says:

It all starts with you. Blow some more insulation and install an attic fan and you will cut your AC bill by half.

I live in Germany again, and here the entire alternative energy concepts are so revolutionalized.. Germany is having a leading position. On my parents house, my father has built a government sponsored solar cell plant. The German concept is in the process of being completely decentralized.

At the same time, I have to point out that the return to nuclear energy is the most unsensible idea one can have. Germany has made a law in consensus with the manufactures of energy to step out of nuclear energy. It is not only dangerous, but the problem his how to store the nuclear waste (10.000 years till Urans 1/2 radiation is gone)... it is dangerous, and there are many problems behind.. let's hope that research in alternative energies goes on. And to repeat: it is a good point to rethink the own consumption habits..

By the way, alternative energy research and engineering is a growing market and a good concept for sustainable development! There are a lot of projects going on, but not enough

Being independent of energy resources would be a great step, and it is feasible (and would be a good solvation of the MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME crisis Big grin ) . But everyone has to contribute - you will save a lot of money on the long term, really  Big grin I am realizing this myself... The problem is that the people in power are not really interested in starting with the steps towards that.. there is a s---y lobby behind..


I hope I could have some influence with these thoughts on everyones' energy using habits!  Smile


MIA's steps to reduce foreign dependence on oil:
1. Vote Democrat ticket for the presidency on November 2nd.
2. Nationalize Oil Holdings in America (thats the only wya to get oil corporations OUT of the picture).
3. Use the profits from this new Nationalized oil to truly invest in alternative fuels research.
4. Use the profits to encourage, if not force automobile manufacturers to put out fuel efficient vehicles, like more turbo diesel powered vehicles, hybrid vehicles, etc.
5. Use the profits to build a green public transportation system within urban areas.


Mia, make a cross in your calendar.. I agree with you 100 %!! Really  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Matt D
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:06 am

Now if we tax the shit out of gasoline

This endlessly regurgitated argument is the biggest load of BS and we all know it.

The only people who are going to be hurt by such punitive and vindictive measures
are those who 1) can't afford it and 2) probably already drive smaller, more efficient cars. Anyone who can afford an Escalade AND an Excursion AND a boat will simply shrug their shoulders and say "oh well" and fork over the extra cash.

Nothings changed.

Then the poor guy who drives a Honda Civic and rents an apartment is going to find
himself either looking for another job and/or abandoning his car.

So what have you accomplished?

If you really want to get to the root of the problem, perhaps we need to look at
not taxing the gallons of gas, but rather, taxing the vehicles
that waste the most gas.

Any vehicle sold for consumer use (meaning not a commercial tractor) that weighs-say-more
than 3500 pounds and/or gets less than 25 miles per gallon-slap a $10,000 tax on it at the time of purchase.

Or something like that.

Only THEN will people maybe change their habits.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:18 am

I actually have to agree with MattD, taxing gas rarely has the intended results, as is the case with minimum wage rate, tax breaks, ect. It's really damn hard to predict human behavior across radically different demographics, his assessement that a person with a $50k car will just shrug at $2.00/g gas is absolutely correct.

The energy picture is so huge its minddumbing. If we cut energy consumption in half, there will simply be twice as many people living in 10 years. All the more reason to do so, but the problem will never be solved, until really fusion IMO.
 
mrniji
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:33 pm

The ecological tax here in Germany works very well... while I disagree with the concept in the fact that the revenue is spent for the pensions, the idea as such is brilliant and has caused a more sustainable way of managing energy... which annoys me a little that the money is not used for research in alternative energy or the enhancment iof public transport
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
NWDC10
Topic Author
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:43 am

it's now over $53/barrel now. Looks like it aint getting any cheaper as the world uses oil in record amounts. Robert NWDC10
 
Alessandro
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RE: Is It Time To Be Energy Independant?

Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:00 am

MattD, the thing is that the SUVs will lose 2nd hand value and this could be a problem even if you afford to drive it.
I think USofA got 3 years of domestic produced oil by themselves with current consumption, not much...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Klaus
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Mrniji

Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:17 am

Mrniji: The ecological tax here in Germany works very well...

Indeed. Even the opposition has basically resigned to that fact. (Small wonder, since it was an idea that originated among their ranks. Wink/being sarcastic)


Mrniji: which annoys me a little that the money is not used for research in alternative energy or the enhancment iof public transport

Since the government is handing out substantial incentives for the development of alternative energy from its global budget, it´s basically a complaint about labeling.  Wink/being sarcastic

As a consequence, alternative energy technology has become a booming industry and an important factor in exports.

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